Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Eternal Yoshi]

I say ban mushroomy Kingdom 1-1.
1. The scrolling gives slightly unfair advantages to those who start to the right. Also a bit unfair to slower moving characters, who have to run most of the time to keep up.
2. The blocks can be used to laser camp and projectile spam. I mean the ones on the ground that you can't destroy.
3. Fox can shine stall characters against the pipes and blocks referred to earlier to get very cheap KOs.
Dedede can do this with his down throw as well.
4. The absurdly low ceiling and close walls + the walk off edges means characters can back throw camp with ease. Dedede can chain throw people off the edges too.

What' s your take on Mario Circuit? Is it still counterpick?

 

[Charizard92]

The reason I made borderline was to allow for opinion, so you can say I think the windmill is a problem, it's a counter pick or the windmill is just a small annoying part with a 1 in 4 chance of popping up, so it's neutral. Another hidden reason that I originally counter picked Delfino Plaza and Castle Siege is that the walk offs are almost certain to pop up while the windmill has a one in four chance of ever popping up in a match (the odds go up if the match goes longer than two minutes, and may not happen if the fight only allows fro two stage changes). Borderline was created to be a pure option, so it can be debated, but there is that other side who says the opposite. By the way, I am willing to support a borderline for PS1 now, just not anything below that.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

I'll try to explain my changes. Also, I might have just missed some things because I couldn't quote it (no offense Elrich, I did the same with my last 1). Also I noted you were removing the "optional" part whenever a stage was agreed upon, but that isn't exactly what I meant with it.

The optional part is there, so that TO's that want a wider or smaller selection of stages for their tournament, have an easy way to pick, without making their tournament lose too much credit. In example, in Melee TO's would ban Peach's Castle sometimes, because this was common, a lot of people still went to these tournaments. Now with this list I'm trying to give TO's some options if they want to do things a little different, without them having to decide on stuff themselves and with less risk to make stupid choices. In example, a tourney with "everything else banned", like the idealist showed above us, would have PS1 banned, but 2 not. A bit of an extreme example, but just to make things clear.

Oh ok, makes sense. Sorry, but I get it now. And yea, that list is fine. I completely agree with it. Obviously, we have yet to agree on everything, but we've made a lot of progress.

 

[Charizard92]

With Empy's list, I'd just switch Frigate Orpheon and Castle Siege around and add Brinstar, Distant planet and Haliberd to the Counterpick/banned borderline and put Norfair into the banned section because of the not so hypothetical (or unless you face weaker opponents visible) is the what if you can't avoid the hazard problems (ex what happens if someone throws you into that laser beam/acid/Bug thingy/Lava wave?). Do you yet see the problems here.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Why would Halberd be on the Counterpick/Banned borderline?

Next to Delfino, it's probably one of the more fair Counterpick stages

 

[MysticKenji]

Brinstar's acid can't even kill G&W until about 150%.
It's not broken.
It's not ban-able.
No johns.

 

[Johnknight1]

banned due to lag actually, same reason FoD doesn't appear on melee teams (and if either stage were banned due to being too small, yoshi's is neutral on melee teams)

REALLY!?!?!? o_O That's VERY intresting. You learn something new everyday! Thanks for that! That makes even more sense that then already good reason, lol! (though I knew FoD lags) And by Yoshi's, do you mean Yoshi's Island, or Yoshi's Story, because I thought/believe Yoshi's Story is 1v1 and 2v2 nuetral! XD Well...that's another thing to learn!

Anyways, here's the stage legal/ban list...all in my opinion.

Nuetral:

Final Destination: The least nuetral on this list. If I could, I'd make it a counter-pick stage, but due to hgih number of FD obssessed players who say it's the most nuetrla stage ever [what a f***ing joke], it'll never happened. Even the top pros admit it's not the most nuetral stage. In fact, I think it's the least nuetral of all the nuetral stages in smash EVER! since seeing this stage combined with Battlefield [in which there are far more nuetral stages] makes me sick. This stage is a okay stage at best).
-Battlefield: Nuetral or GTFO!
-Luigi's Mansion: After thinking about it for a while, the pillars block projectiles and while it will have a stall or two, it won't have much (if even any) camping.
-Frigate Orpheon: Get over flipping issues. Learn the stage already. For the edges with Ivysaur, Olimar, and possibly Zamus, apply the Ness-Saffron City ruling.
-Yoshi's Island (Melee)
-The Halberd
-Lylat Cruise: It tilts. Get over it. It's far more nuetral then Final Abomination. I still think for most characters it's the farest people in the game.
-Pokémon Stadium (Melee): The windmill actually stops projectiles. It's one addition. IMO it actually is a slight improvement on the stage. Seriously, get over it.
-Pokémon Stadium 2: The wind transformation is just generally a stall, and the electric transformation has limited moving room, which isn't so bad. The ice transformation is very bearable, and the ground transformation is possibly my favorite Pokémon Stadium transformation ever.
-Castle Siege
-Smashville

Counter-Pick:

-Rainbow Ride (doubles nuetral, singles counter-pick): Definitely at least doubles nuetral, and probably singles counter-pick (missing nuetral by a bit).
-Delfino Plaza (doubles nuetral, singles counter-pick): If it's banned by the backroom, I'm done with smash (since it's my favorite stage). I'd be just done! XD It will never happen, thankfully!
-Mario Circuit: Apply the Ness-Saffron City ruling for the Dedede chain grab, or limit the chain grab to three or so throws and grabs. And lol at scrubs complaining about those easy as f*** to avoid cars....unless you get hit by them.
-Pirate Ship: Amazing stage.
-The Bridge of Eldin: Apply the Ness-Saffron City ruling for the Dedede chain grab, or limit the chain grab to three or so throws and grabs.
-Brinstar (Melee): Learn to deal with the easy to avoid lava again! XD
-Norfair: Lava was legal with Brinstar in Melee, and this seems to be a far fairer stage.
-Yoshi's Island (Melee): Apply the Ness-Saffron City ruling for the Dedede chain grab, or limit the chain grab to three or so throws and grabs.
-Green Greens: Definitely a counter-pick stage again.
-Corneria: Definitely a counter-pick stage again.
-Port Town Aero Dive: Definitely banned from online tournaments. I like the idea of it being legal, but a lot of people disagree with me.
-Onett: Possibly ban the Dedede chain grab here on the sides.
-Skyworld
-Distant Planet: Why shouldn't it be at least doubles legal=??? The Rain waterslide is easy to avoid, and same thing with the Bulbord (or whatever it's called) and not getting eaten for lunch!
-Hanebow: I don't care or even know about it being singles legal worthy, but in my opinioni it's doubles counter-pick worthy. Then again, that's just me.
-PictoChat: Random s***! o_O
-Shadow Moses Island: Definitely doubles legal. Probably singles counter-pick, too, but there is a good chance it could be singles-banned. And for the walk off grabs and stage part, apply the Ness-Saffron City ruling. For the walls with Fox, either ban the infinite shine (it doesn't even involve skill now), or use the Ness-Saffron City ruling (aka banning Fox from this stage).
-Green Hill Zone: At the bare minimum, let it doubles-legal. I think it's single-legal worthy, too.

Unsure:

-Jungle Japes: It may need to be ban it from online tournaments. I'm unsure on it's condition, really, with all these ROB and other character campers abusing this stage like a drug, so that's that. Still, maybe with live play having less lag and campers, it could be a easy fix.
-Rumble Falls: Definitely online tournament banned. I think it's at least worth a shot, since it doesn't seem as unfair as people make it out to be. It's not really campable, and you can't stay in the same spot too long, thanks to the moving. I think it's at least worth a shot for at least doubles, and I'm unsure on singles, but that's just me. I want to see what the best say about it.
-The Summit: It's probably banned from online tournaments. For live tournaments, it's probably singles banned, and could be doubles counter-pick or banned. While I want it to be singles-banned, and doubles counter-pick, anything can happen with this city. Also, thanks to the lack of grabbable edges on this stage, we would have to apply the Ness-Saffron City ruling on this stage.

Banned:

-Mario Bros.
-Mushroomy Kingdom
-75 Meters
-Hyrule Temple
-Spear Pillar
-Big Blue
-New Pork City
-FlatZone 2
-Wario Ware Inc.

Brinstar's acid can't even kill G&W until about 150%.
It's not broken.
It's not ban-able.
No johns.

QFT...all of it. You win at life! Same with Norfair. No Johns. And that's coming from a all natural John! :laugh

 

[Charizard92]

OK, because none of you are getting what I am trying to get, I'll give you an example. Lets just say you are playing as a character whose down throw will send someone down an edge, like Wolf or Sonic. Lets also say that you are playing on Distant Planet, and that beast will obviously come and open it's mouth once or twice. at the ledge near the Bug thing you grab your opponent. Because you're Sonic/Wolf, your opponent will go into the mouth at a lower angle and if they don't react in time or something, chomp, yay a free KO. This problem is also existent on the haliberd and to a degree brinstar (except you don't need a special throw) and due to the fact that Norfair has four of these high avoid ability high damage problems, this lands into banned territory, and if you didn't read the border part of my new neutral list, Pure neutrals stopped at smashville and borderlines started at Delfino Plaza.

 

[MysticKenji]

What you say about DP is true. (and I think it's inescapable past certain percents)
The problem is the Bulborb isn't very dependable.

 

[Charizard92]

Not to mention that it applies to Norfair 4x as much. Now I will introduce my list of counter picks starting with:

Borderline (Neutral/Counter pick)

-Delfino Plaza: the temporary walk off edge, end of story

-Castle siege: see Delfino Plaza

-P. Stadium 1: there is a problem in PS1, on three out of five stages there is an inhibiting object on the left, the tree, the mountain, and worst of all, the windmill. It is static on the most part and the windmill is the only inhibiting factor with major concern. It can't be put in either category without debate, so it's put in both.

Pure: counter pick:

-Luigi's Mansion: Completely changing the face of the stage is a problem in this stage. What happens is that it turns from somewhat large to completely flat is a problem, especially since this can turn into a habit and strategy (in contrast to random stage changes in which it is more stay on the ball than do this or that).

-Mario Circuit: The stage is permanently grounded, the cars are very avoidable and low risk so there is little problem in that right?

-Bridge of Eldin: See Mario circuit, except add a bomb and a gap.

-Frigate Orpheon: People are going to say that it is either higher or lower on the list, so Ill put it on counter pick for two counterbalancing reasons, it gives you a heads up and there are reports of it causing fatalities.

-Pokemon Stadium 2 (2, not 1): Similar to PS1, there is a 3/5 ratio of stage forms with problems and stage forms, except here it is more serious, because instead of an inhibitor, it has active problems (ex lower gravity, conveyor belts, and ice) which it is just below it's counterpart.

-Skyworld: see Luigi's Mansion, except replace large size with cave of life and flat stage to meteor smash medley.

-Hanenbow: it is somewhat large but not too large and there is a weird thing going on with the platforms. but it is short of being large, or borderline

-Shadow Moses Island: walk offs 'nough said

-Green hill zone: see Shadow moses

-Yoshi's Island(Melee): see Shadow moses

-Jungle Japes: Water whisks you away along with crocs, but this is below the stage, and this stage is below borderline.

-Onett: see Mario circuit, except add more damage

-Rainbow Cruise: Moving, temporary walk offs, see yet.

-Green Greens: it was in Melee it will be in Brawl thing

-Brinstar: see Mario circuit, except replace cars with acid, walk off with ledges, and decrease avoid ability a bit.

Borderline: Counter pick/banned:

-Pirate ship: anything with an instant KO thing, no matter how avoidable, gets into this list.

-Haliberd: see Pirate ship

-Distant Planet: see Pirate ship

-PictoChat: More random and more dangerous than PS1 & 2

-Corneria: This is the most ******* reasonable spot there is.


Remember, Borderline means that it will occupy two spots, which one it will occupy in a tournament is up to you.

 

[3transfat]

I don't understand why anyone wants to add stages with any sort of hazard to the neutral list.

Halberd, you say it's easy to avoid, but I find myself getting clawed often.
Frigate Orpheon can screw over players on the ground. Situation. Someone has two stocks, their opponent one. They notice the switch about to happen, they grab their opponent and hold on. Stage flips, their under the stage. Grabber wins. Not fair.

To me, the only debatable neutrals are Luigi's Mansion and the Pokemon Stadiums.

Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Those are the neutral stages. No hazards, just fighting.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Pokemon Stadium 2 should definetly not be neutral.

 

[Serris]

Pokemon Stadium 2 should definetly not be neutral.

We already knew that. It's PS1 that everyone's debating over.

 

[AlexX]

Halberd, you say it's easy to avoid, but I find myself getting clawed often.

In that case, how many times have you or your opponent been killed by the claw?

Frigate Orpheon can screw over players on the ground. Situation. Someone has two stocks, their opponent one. They notice the switch about to happen, they grab their opponent and hold on. Stage flips, their under the stage. Grabber wins. Not fair.

Won't the grabber be forced to let go once the two are in the air? If so, just about any character should be able to get back to the stage as long as they keep their head and don't spaz out about getting tossed under the stage.

 

[MysticKenji]

Won't the grabber be forced to let go once the two are in the air?

Yep.

And you're both way up above the stage too.

 

[Patinator]

In that case, how many times have you or your opponent been killed by the claw?

Regardless of that, it still inflicts damage. If we'll allow things that cause damage, nearing you do that certain KO %, let's put Food on low.

Halberd has hazards, no one can deny this. There are always rather lame ways to get someone to get hit by these hazards, be it holding them or hitting them into it. In fact I've gotten what feel like unearned KO's because I've hit people at high damage into Halberd's laser beam with a move that wouldn't have killed them. But they die from that. Tsk, tsk, tsk...

Also, Luigi's Mansion shouldn't be Neutral. The main problem is that the pillars block projectiles, not to mention the two solid platforms form mini caves of life. Sure you can kill the stage, but even so, it rebuilds like fifteen seconds later.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

We already knew that. It's PS1 that everyone's debating over.

I see. I saw people saying it should be neutral a few pages back.

PS1 should definetly be counterpick. It has walls and that Windmill which stops you from dying. The rock transformation has a bunch of problems.

What do people think of Rainbow Cruise?

 

[enemyoftime]

In my opinion all scrolling stages should be banned regard less of wierd hazards.

Oh and Smashville is by far the best stage.

 

[Charizard92]

As I said before, any stage with a potential Kill hazard goes into the counter pick/banned borderline which means that you can place it anywhere too. Again, PS1 is borderline because of that annoying windmill and the gimpers on the left side of the Fire and Rock stage as well. in total, they are slightly better than PS2 or Luigi's Mansion's ability to create your own strategy automatically instead of staying on the ball between stage layout changes. It is in the Neutral/Counter pick borderline so that is up to opinion in there. I think I put Rainbow cruise on counter pick because part of the stage is a simple fight and another part is the moving problem,in contrast to the other two.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Wasn't Rainbow cruise Neutral in Melee? Or was it a counterpick?

 

[MysticKenji]

Neutral in Doubles
CP in Singles

 

[x After Dawn x]

Rainbow Cruise is counter-pick...sure, it scrolls, but that doesn't really affect gameplay. It just prevents people from camping. There aren't even any real hazards in the stage, as opposed to Jungle Falls, where those annoying spikes tend to...well, spike you.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Ok...Delfino Plaza is a counterpick. End of story. Castle Siege is a counterpick. End of story. Frigate Orpheon is a counterpick. End of story.

And yes, RC is a counterpick in both games on singles. And I agree with Rumble Falls. I think it should be banned because it not only moves but has hazards.

I think we're going to just keep SMI a CP for now. Sound good Empy?

 

[Charizard92]

Delfino Plaza and Castle siege were borderline remember? Anyway, now it is the time you are waiting for, the list of banned stages.

Borderline: CP/ Banned

-Pirate ship: Instant KO thing, the bow

-Haliberd: instant KO thing, take off and laser

-Distant Planet: Instant KO thing Bulborb

-Pictochat: More random and deadly than PS1&2

-Corneria: Instant KO thing, the plasma beam (it is more likely to be plasma)

Pure: Banned

-Mushroomy Kingdom: Walk offs, scrolling, gives advantages, and potential cave of life level.

-Rumble falls: See mushroomy kingdom, except replace potential cave of life with spike.

-Norfair: Brinstar 4x. not to mention the instant KO from the lava wave, essentially combine Brinstar with any stage with an Instant KO thing from the lava Tsunami

-Spear Pillar: the mind tricks and the Hyper Beams and the boomerangs, nough said.

-Port town: Cars=instant KO thing

-Warioware: The mini games, thats why.

-New Pork City: Size and instant KO thingy.

-Summit: Lower gravity and two instant KO thingys, ****

-75M: Size, fireballs, and Donkey Kong.

-Mario Bros: Cave of life and those things.

-Flat Zone 2: The Fire based stage is fine, it's the other three that isn't

-Temple: see New Pork City, minus the instant KO thing

-Big blue: Instant KO thing, walk off edges, and a focus on getting to the newest platform.

There, thats the new list for ya.

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

Instant KO thing? That list was helpful...

But really, why is halberd in the borderline banned section? It most certainly does not have anything that causes an instant K.O, and you'd have to be asleep to be K.O'd by the takeoff.

 

[enemyoftime]

DUDE! Disntant Planet Should NOT be borderline banned. The only dangerous thing is the landslide thing and u still like automatically grab the edge if ur pulled down. The bulborb thing is hardly dangerous at all dude.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

But really, why is halberd in the borderline banned section? It most certainly does not have anything that causes an instant K.O, and you'd have to be asleep to be K.O'd by the takeoff.

Agreed, heavily. I remember someone arguing (in a tournament thread for its stage selection) that at the start of a match on battlefield, there are walkoffs with a combination of the takeoff being instant death. I tested it out with Dedede since he could probably take advantage of the walkoffs the best. I started the match off running, and by the time I had gotten within grab range of the other player (who just stood there), the ship had taken off.

Trust me, it takes a LOT of bad play for that takeoff to kill you at all.

And then the laser will rarely kill you, you can start from the center of it and just DI out of it, without taking the final, potentially lethal hit. Not to mention you can DI to avoid being hit into it in the first place.

Seriously, calling it "Counterpick/Banned" when the stage is probably the most neutral we'll see a stage with hazards in Brawl is silly. However, I DO agree it should be counterpick, but for that claw only. This makes me sad because it's my favorite stage in the game.

 

[MysticKenji]

-Halberd: instant KO thing, take off and laser

Laser is not an instant KO, and you'd have to mess up really badly in order for the takeoff to kill you.

-Corneria: Instant KO thing, the plasma beam (it is more likely to be plasma)

Why would you ever be down there?

-Norfair: Brinstar 4x. not to mention the instant KO from the lava wave, essentially combine Brinstar with any stage with an Instant KO thing from the lava Tsunami

Not an instant KO, can be shielded/airdodged/jumped over

-Port town: Cars=instant KO thing

Agreed, but also not instant.

-Warioware: The mini games, thats why.

Actually, it's banned for random prizes

 

[3transfat]

Yes, the grabber is forced to let go, but now they are under the stage, where few characters can recover.
In my experience, being on the ground in Frigate Orpheon puts me under the stage.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Ummm...stop making lists that cover stages we've already gone over guys. Go back to page 72 and check that list out, ok? THE ONE BY EMPY!!! Delfino and Halberd aren't even on the borderline anymore. I think most people have reached a consensus that they should both be CP, and Frigate should be CP too, due to the one side that has no ledge.

Norfair isn't banned.

I agree with Corneria being banned, though it's not because of the lasers.

Port Town has not been decided. I think it should be a counterpick, because the window of opportunity for the cars to kill you is relatively small. It's still arguable though as to be banned or not.

Pirate Ship has pretty much been agreed on to stay a CP.

And I think that you're opinions on Rumble Falls and Mushroomy Kingdom have finalized it: we'll make them both as recommended banned.

 

[MysticKenji]

Actually, if you grab someone, you both end up high in the air.
I have no idea why it works like that but w/e.

This is @ Firgate Orpheon

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Delfino Plaza and Castle siege were borderline remember? Anyway, now it is the time you are waiting for, the list of banned stages.

Borderline: CP/ Banned

-Pirate ship: Instant KO thing, the bow
i do see this one getting banned,there are also the bombs that are quite semi hard to avoid,this is also a moving stage,but its more than that to get it banned

-Haliberd: instant KO thing, take off and laser
but these arent too hard to avoid no?so mabey CP
-Distant Planet: Instant KO thing Bulborb
i dont see it getting banned,mabey singles banned but team CP
-Pictochat: More random and deadly than PS1&2
agreed,id rather see this one banned
-Corneria: Instant KO thing, the plasma beam (it is more likely to be plasma)
CP,as it was in melee,theres almost no chance of getting hit by the LAZAR
Pure: Banned

-Mushroomy Kingdom: Walk offs, scrolling, gives advantages, and potential cave of life level.
agreed

-Rumble falls: See mushroomy kingdom, except replace potential cave of life with spike.
agreed,sorta its the up scrolling i dont like

-Norfair: Brinstar 4x. not to mention the instant KO from the lava wave, essentially combine Brinstar with any stage with an Instant KO thing from the lava Tsunami
idk,this one isint like brinstar but i dont see the plasma koing many ppl
-Spear Pillar: the mind tricks and the Hyper Beams and the boomerangs, nough said.
agreed.
-Port town: Cars=instant KO thing
not sure
-Warioware: The mini games, thats why.
free stars and mushrooms,nothx
-New Pork City: Size and instant KO thingy.
and the fast person 1ko thing
-Summit: Lower gravity and two instant KO thingys, ****
CP.the KOs are easily avoidable
-75M: Size, fireballs, and Donkey Kong.
agreed.
-Mario Bros: Cave of life and those things.
agred.
-Flat Zone 2: The Fire based stage is fine, it's the other three that isn't
and small level with a walk off
-Temple: see New Pork City, minus the instant KO thing
agreed.
-Big blue: Instant KO thing, walk off edges, and a focus on getting to the newest platform.
agreed.
There, thats the new list for ya.

answers in orange.

is there another reason ppl are trying to ban corneria if its not the lasers?

 

[DuskMarthWater]

You guys are getting a little off topic here. Just discuss the list on page 72 by Empy. One of us two will make another list later, but for now please just use his list on that page, because we have already discussed many of these stages and they have been agreed upon. If you have questions about the ones that aren't agreed upon, then those are what we should discuss.

 

[Empy]

I agree with Elrich and will try to give each of you a solid reply later. However, right now I'm finishing up on an Ike guide and my fingers still hurt from making a guide to aerial combat. So I'm gonna have to leave this thread for the day.

 

[Charizard92]

Does ANYONE notice where it says borderline, pure is definite, Borderline is a maybe/flip flop. OK here are scenarios for that insta kill thing.

Norfair: during a fight the capsule opens and you manage to reach there, and your opponents will go there too (under likely circumstances). you keep on beating them and they are flying/ laying on the ground when the Tsunami comes, there is no time to launch a dodge and they are badly beaten, the next thing they know is that they are off the screen.

Haliberd: You landed on the Haliberd and started fighting there when some cross hairs pop up on you, you dodge long enough so that the cross hairs go off you and the laser fires. Before it disapates, you throw your opponent into the laser, he is badly beaten. afterwards there is an explosion where your opponent flew to.

Distant Planet: I wrote on this one before remember?!

Corneria: You get stuck on top of the laser canons (why is because you aren't that athletic and you opponent is edge guarding), the laser starts charging and there is no way to get off the canons. If your opponent already damaged you, the lasers will take you of screen.

Need any more.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Norfair: during a fight the capsule opens and you manage to reach there, and your opponents will go there too (under likely circumstances). you keep on beating them and they are flying/ laying on the ground when the Tsunami comes, there is no time to launch a dodge and they are badly beaten, the next thing they know is that they are off the screen.

Pretty sure you can use the invincibility frames from standing up to avoid the lava, although it would take some great timing. Most of the times I've played on the level, players seem to avoid fighting each other and focus on avoiding the wave so I honestly haven't seen a situation where someone is lying down during the lava wave.

Haliberd: You landed on the Haliberd and started fighting there when some cross hairs pop up on you, you dodge long enough so that the cross hairs go off you and the laser fires. Before it disapates, you throw your opponent into the laser, he is badly beaten. afterwards there is an explosion where your opponent flew to.

This is amazingly situational and doesn't even come close to putting it as "Counterpick/Banned." Being able to time your attack so that it hits on the very last bit of the laser takes skill, especially considering, in most cases, how easily it's DI'd away from the laser. As for flying, considering how early you can airdodge after being hit, combined with the multiple platforms to recover to, I don't think that's too much of a problem.

Corneria: You get stuck on top of the laser canons (why is because you aren't that athletic and you opponent is edge guarding), the laser starts charging and there is no way to get off the canons. If your opponent already damaged you, the lasers will take you of screen.

...athletic? What? Not to mention the situation you just gave NEVER HAPPENS. If anything call it counterpick/banned for being an insane campfest.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Yes, that and the wall on the lower level of Corneria. It's become way worse than in the last game. Now, enough discussion on the Halberd and Norfair; those arguments aren't even that legitimate. Moving on to stages that are still not agreed upon...

 

[Charizard92]

Wait, first I was the only one supporting PS1 as neutral now I'm trying to demote Norfair? Deja vu, Look, Norfair is worse than Brinstar and doesn't even deserve to be in the same category. And if you say that they are avoidable, tell that to the lvl 3 training targets/friends who don't have brawl and can't beat me in a gang up who constantly hit that lava wall/wave that it's avoidable, the same goes for Haliberd. These stages are newbie/ Cpu killers, and try to imagine the inevitable screw up.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Newbie killers? What does that have to do with high level play?

And how could it possibly be worse than Brinstar? Because there was nothing wrong with Brinstar in the first place. Brinstar was also a counterpick in Melee.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Wait, first I was the only one supporting PS1 as neutral now I'm trying to demote Norfair? Deja vu, Look, Norfair is worse than Brinstar and doesn't even deserve to be in the same category. And if you say that they are avoidable, tell that to the lvl 3 training targets/friends who don't have brawl and can't beat me in a gang up who constantly hit that lava wall/wave that it's avoidable, the same goes for Haliberd. These stages are newbie/ Cpu killers, and try to imagine the inevitable screw up.

So you're saying those stages are bad because your ability to play well on them is determined by your stage knowledge...

lol wut