Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Micahc]

Delfino Plaza and Castle siege were borderline remember? Anyway, now it is the time you are waiting for, the list of banned stages.

Borderline: CP/ Banned

-Pirate ship: Instant KO thing, the bow
Not instant KO, should be counter pick, even though the bow pisses me off. With practice though, it should be avoidable.

-Haliberd: instant KO thing, take off and laser
If the take off is enough reason to possible be banned, then Delfino should be on here. And the laser isn't to hard to avoid

-Distant Planet: Instant KO thing Bulborb
The bulborb IS the instant KO thing which you have to TRY to get into, don't list the same thing as two separate items. If an opponent can force you in there they should deserve the kill anyways.

-Pictochat: More random and deadly than PS1&2

-Corneria: Instant KO thing, the plasma beam (it is more likely to be plasma)
If you die from the Great Foxes laser, then you where probably about to die anyway (or you where camping on the guns.) And the other ships don't OHKO
Pure: Banned

-Mushroomy Kingdom: Walk offs, scrolling, gives advantages, and potential cave of life level.

-Rumble falls: See mushroomy kingdom, except replace potential cave of life with spike.

-Norfair: Brinstar 4x. not to mention the instant KO from the lava wave, essentially combine Brinstar with any stage with an Instant KO thing from the lava Tsunami
Nothing OHKOs on this stage.
-Spear Pillar: the mind tricks and the Hyper Beams and the boomerangs, nough said.

-Port town: Cars=instant KO thing
What's with the obsession with the word "thing"?
-Warioware: The mini games, thats why.

-New Pork City: Size and instant KO thingy.

-Summit: Lower gravity and two instant KO thingys, ****
Only the fish OHKOs here.
-75M: Size, fireballs, and Donkey Kong.

-Mario Bros: Cave of life and those things.
Your specificity clearly outlines why this stage should be banned. You logic is thus infallible
-Flat Zone 2: The Fire based stage is fine, it's the other three that isn't

-Temple: see New Pork City, minus the instant KO thing

-Big blue: Instant KO thing, walk off edges, and a focus on getting to the newest platform.
Nothing OHKO's here...
There, thats the new list for ya.

I recommend you actually PLAY the game before making such a list. And try to point out what's wrong with the stage, not just "(insert number) amount of things that OHKO you."

EDIT: Only now do I read ERICHs post after this...

EDIT 2:

Wait, first I was the only one supporting PS1 as neutral now I'm trying to demote Norfair? Deja vu, Look, Norfair is worse than Brinstar and doesn't even deserve to be in the same category. And if you say that they are avoidable, tell that to the lvl 3 training targets/friends who don't have brawl and can't beat me in a gang up who constantly hit that lava wall/wave that it's avoidable, the same goes for Haliberd. These stages are newbie/ Cpu killers, and try to imagine the inevitable screw up.

Wow, who cares about freaking newb killing stages in COMPETITIVE BRAWL?! That's just a stupid argument, if your friends are constantly getting killed by the hazards, all TEAM UP on you, why don't you just turn Pokeballs, Assist Trophies, and Smash Balls on max and just have some fun, non-competative casual play. I do that a lot, and if all your friends are like that, stop posting on a stage legality discussion, when you have no credibility to your arguments.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Should Skyworld be banned? I am not entirely sure but I think so. Mostly because of the platforms materializing in your face and destroying your recovery, also the platform that goes across the bottom. I can see people arguing about knowing the timing of it, but that seems a little sketchy.

I am totally open to any ideas of why it should be CP, so if you disagree just let me know.

 

[hizzlum]

Spear pillar is the most annoying stage in the game, without the pokemon it would be a great stage, but the changes they make are unbelieveablely frustrating

 

[x After Dawn x]

Should Skyworld be banned? I am not entirely sure but I think so. Mostly because of the platforms materializing in your face and destroying your recovery, also the platform that goes across the bottom. I can see people arguing about knowing the timing of it, but that seems a little sketchy.

I am totally open to any ideas of why it should be CP, so if you disagree just let me know.

It's banned in most tourneys and I personally think it should be banned too. When the solid edges break, they can often ruin recovery. The moving platform on the bottom saves characters if they are about to die. The middle-top platform is solid, which creates many issues in play; you can't move through it until you break it, it creates game stalling, it prevents characters like Pikachu from using certain attacks (down B), and it's a usmash fest that not only racks up extreme damage, but gradually smashes characters into the edge of the top platform, which ends up spiking them once they bounce off. Characters like Cpt. Falcon can also spam their side B here with no penalty.

 

[freeman123]

<NEUTRAL>
-Battlefield
-Delfino Plaza
-Final Destination
-Frigate Orpheon
-Lylat Cruise
-Pokemon Stadium GCN
-Smashville
-Yoshi's Island

<COUNTER PICK>
-Bridge of Eldin
-Brinstar GCN
-Castle Siege
-Corneria GCN
-Distant Planet
-Green Greens GCN
-Green Hill Zone
-Halberd
-Luigi's Mansion
-Mario Circuit
-Norfair
-Onett GCN
-PictoChat
-Pirate Ship
-Rainbow Cruise GCN
-Shadow Moses Island
-Yoshi's Island GCN

<BANNED>
-75m
-Big Blue GCN
-Flat Zone 2
-Hanenbow
-Jungle Japes GCN
-Mario Bros.
-Mushroomy Kingdom
-New Pork City
-Pokemon Stadium 2
-Port Town Aero Drive
-Rumble Falls
-Skyworld
-Spear Pillar
-Summit
-Temple GCN
-WarioWare, Inc.

 

[ytv]

^^
Why is Jungle Japes banned? In melee the water was very annoying but in brawl it isn't half annoying because all characters can swim.

 

[Charizard92]

THATS NOT THE POINT! Anyway, Newbes will be in the competitive environment and there is a possibility that someone will take advantage of any hazard, whether or not they are lethal, and Norfair has four of these while Brinstar has one. 4 ways to hurt your opponent real bad compared to one or two, get the picture yet, clearly not, let me put it into a formula that is easy to understand if you understand math, 4>2>1>0, or four hazards is greater than two hazards which is greater than one hazard which is greater than no hazards. Now you get the picture?!

 

[Micahc]

THATS NOT THE POINT! Anyway, Newbes will be in the competitive environment and there is a possibility that someone will take advantage of any hazard, whether or not they are lethal, and Norfair has four of these while Brinstar has one. 4 ways to hurt your opponent real bad compared to one or two, get the picture yet, clearly not, let me put it into a formula that is easy to understand if you understand math, 4>2>1>0, or four hazards is greater than two hazards which is greater than one hazard which is greater than no hazards. Now you get the picture?!

Then the newbie should learn how to counter getting shoved into the lava. I think it should be banned, but on the basis that the hazards distract to much from the fight, not because it will kill newbs. If the lava will kill the newb, chances are the other player would just as easily without the hazard. For the record, people WILL take advantage of the hazards, against people of any skill level, it's called strategy.

Chill out.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

THATS NOT THE POINT! Anyway, Newbes will be in the competitive environment and there is a possibility that someone will take advantage of any hazard

why is this bad at all? taking advantage of a stage's nuances and differences from other stages is a very important skill and eliminating it waters down the game.

and for the last time, we shouldn't have to ban stages to compensate for new players. it's their fault for not knowing the stage they're playing on, not the game's.

EDIT: it just occurred to me that I have yet to post a list in this topic. i might give that a shot later.

 

[Charizard92]

They give you an unfair advantage exactly what a banned stage does!

 

[wWw Dazwa]

how is it unfair if both players have an opportunity to take advantage of it, and playing on the stage doesn't completely rely on it?

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Jungle Japes ISN'T banned.

You know, counterpick stages give "unfair" advantages to certain characters. In Melee, Marth was ridiculously broken on Yoshi's Story. Being able to f-smash tipper through the platforms, smaller blastzones means you die if you don't DI right, abuse of the u-tilt, you get the picture? Before you argue about a stage dude, you've gotta have a solid, legitimate argument that players of any decent skill level will respect you for.

And for the record, banned stages are banned because they're so...out there, not because of unfair advantages. They do things to the stage, like on Spear Pillar having the Pokemon attack you constantly and screw with gravity and break the stage, not to mention the hit and run strategy works uber well here. Or at 75 m, same thing happens: faster characters will win because they can just run away after hitting you. That's not fair. Now the lava wave at Norfair, however, that can be dodged, or shielded, or just go into the blast-shield, which is very ill-advised, because if you do people will attack you from underneath it. Or you could just grab the ledge and use the invincibility frames at the right time, and you won't get hit. That's not legitimate enough to ban it.

 

[Charizard92]

It is legitimate enough to borderline it.

 

[Micahc]

It is legitimate enough to borderline it.

Then stop trying to ban it and get some credibility to your arguments.

 

[Charizard92]

HEY, I gave up on banning it once I saw that all of you guys are turning me into a rambling idiot. This is the third time I had to remake the list, I will base it off Empy's list wit tweaks here and there, so stop yelling and stop making me look like a buffon!

Neutral
-Battlefield
-Final Destination
-Yoshi's Island
-Lylat Cruise
-Smashville

Borderline (up to opinion)
-Pokemon Stadium (wait, I thought we put this here to stop the yelling)

Counterpick
-Delfino Plaza (what happened here?)
-Luigi's mansion
-Mario Circuit
-Bridge of Eldin
-Pirate Ship
-Frigate Orpheon
-Haliberd
-Pokemon Stadium 2
-Castle siege (What the, why is this this low now?)
-Skyworld (uhh, why was this banned on the new list?)
-Hanenbow
-Shadow Moses Island
-Green Hill Zone
-Yoshi's Island (Melee) (wait, why was it lower)
-Jungle Japes
-Onett
-Rainbow Cruise
-Brinstar (I'm sorry I put it lower on my first list)

Borderline 2
-Mushroomy Kingdom (Wha?)
-Rumble Falls (What?)
-Norfair (See, it is borderline, no more yelling, that's why we originally borderlined PS1)
-Distant Planet
-Corneria
-Green Greens (was it the bombs?)

Banned
-Spear Pillar
-Port town (why was it borderlined on the other list?)
-Warioware
-New Pork City
-Summit
-Mario Bros
-75m
-Flat zone 2
-Temple
-Big blue

As you can see, I have a lot of questions you need to explain, but because my stubborness gave birth to the borderlining of PS1 and Norfair, please don't argue with those two, just the rest.

 

[Tyr_03]

Green Greens probably should be banned because of the exploding field glitch.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NQG9TEiGjKo
For those of you who don't know what it is.

If anyone figures out how to reproduce the exploding field glitch consistently it could easily be used as a stalling tactic or endless camping. I can just imagine Lucas sitting on an island sending PK Thunders up so that if you try to jump over the exploding field he hits you back into it. And yes I've been able to set it up with Lucas and have seen it set up with many other characters. I just can't reproduce it on command.

Rumble Falls should be banned because it's too easy to run with certain characters. Nobody wants to sit around for cat and mouse matches. I think that's reason enough. I really don't seen any reason why Port town should be banned. It's kind of annoying, but it's very possible to avoid the cars and the stage itself is pretty balanced. I'd put it as a counterpick. Hanenbow is just idiotic. I freaking hate that stage. Ban because I say so. Skyworld can have some of the same problems as Temple. Teching can keep you alive forever. It gets really annoying. Stages with walls might be good to ban for all the infinites. They're just kind of lame. That's mostly just my opinion too.

 

[hizzlum]

Green Greens probably should be banned because of the exploding field glitch.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NQG9TEiGjKo
For those of you who don't know what it is.

If anyone figures out how to reproduce the exploding field glitch consistently it could easily be used as a stalling tactic or endless camping. I can just imagine Lucas sitting on an island sending PK Thunders up so that if you try to jump over the exploding field he hits you back into it. And yes I've been able to set it up with Lucas and have seen it set up with many other characters. I just can't reproduce it on command.
.

That url is hilarious, Green Greens is a definite ban like it was in melee

 

[enemyoftime]

Spear Pillar Should not be banned!!! That's one of me and my friends favorite stages and As long as ur not a total noob the lasers don't get you. The only thing you have to worry about is if ur one of the star fox characters and you over B off the edge. SERIOUSLY!! SHould be counterpick.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

^ Is this a troll?

 

[AlexX]

Green Greens probably should be banned because of the exploding field glitch.

I'm pretty sure glitches aren't a reason to ban. Especially ones that haven't been proven to be easy to reproduce.

Rumble Falls should be banned because it's too easy to run with certain characters. Nobody wants to sit around for cat and mouse matches.

It's not like NPC or the Temple where you can just run in circles, though.

 

[Charizard92]

OK I was leaning towards Some of the responses you said (Except the Spear Pillar, that is just idiotic to keep legal). But I have an Idea on making a final list, What we do is that we go through each stage and say where it should be place. If it is general consensus, It would go into a specific category (ex Final Destination will be general consensus that it will be neutral). However, if there is any reasonable controversy (ex Pokemon Stadium), it will be borderline. What I mean by reasonable controversy is that more than one guy rambling (except on rare occasions which is why Pokemon Stadium is borderline) so Spear Pillar will be banned, while Pokemon Stadium is borderline due to the fact that everyone has an opinion on it (people like myself say it's neutral, while others who I won't mention to avoid yelling will say counter pick). So this will be the start of a reasonable final list.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Ummm no...how's about we just get a general consensus based on Empy's list first dude? You're rushing a little too much, just relax. And you're list has a lot of problems with it.

I will say this one more time: THERE ARE WAY TOO MANY LISTS IN HERE. PLEASE JUST LET ME AND EMPY MAKE THE LISTS, BECAUSE THERE IS LESS CONFUSION AND IT IS WAAAAAYY EASIER TO SEE THE LISTS!!! IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE LISTS, THEN PLEASE SAY SO!! THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR POSTING A LIST BASED OFF OF YOUR OWN REASONS, BUT TO USE A SINGLE LIST (MINE AND EMPY'S) AND THEN POST YOUR OWN THOUGHTS ON THAT LIST AND WHAT YOU THINK SHOULD CHANGE.

I am going to reproduce the *official* (I suppose) list, and I will explain every stage thoroughly. This is not the list how you want it Charizard or how I like either, but it works better because it gives more options than a definitive list, although in the future I think MLG and EVO and whatnot want a list that is firm and definitive, without optionals here and there. For now though, it should stay this way. Here goes:



Battlefield Recommended: Random Starter<agreed>
Final Destination Recommended: Random Starter<agreed>
Smashville Recommended: Random Starter<agreed>
Yoshi's Island/Brawl Recommended: Random Starter<agreed>

Lylate Cruise Recommended: Random Starter Optional: Counterpick<Agreed>
Pokemon Stadium 1 Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Random Starter <agreed>

Delfino Plaza Recommended: Counterpick<agreed>
Frigate Orpheon Recommended: Counterpick<agreed>
Bridge of Eldin Recommended: Counterpick <agreed>
Brinstar Recommended: Counterpick<Agreed>
Castle Siege Recommended: Counterpick<Agreed>
Distant Planet Recommended: Counterpick<Agreed>
Halberd Recommended: Counterpick <agreed>
Hanenbow Recommended: Counterpick <agreed>
Jungle Japes Recommended: Counterpick <agreed>
Luigi's Mansion Recommended: Counterpick <agreed>
Norfair Recommended: Counterpick <agreed>
Onett Recommended: Counterpick <Agreed>
Pirate Ship Recommended: Counterpick <agreed>
Pokemon Stadium 2 Recommended: Counterpick <Agreed>
Rainbow Cruise Recommended: Counterpick <agreed>
Mario Circuit Recommended: Counterpick

Port Town Aero Dive Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned<Agreed>
Corneria Recommended: Counterpick Optional:Banned
Green Greens Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Green Hill Zone Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
PictoChat Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Shadow Moses Island Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Skyworld Recommended: Counterpick Optional:Banned
Yoshi's Island/Melee Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned

Mushroomy Kingdom Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick<Agreed>
Rumble Falls Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick

Spear Pillar Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick<agreed>
Summit Recommended: Banned<agreed>
75m Recommended: Banned<agreed>
Big Blue Recommended: Banned<agreed>
Flat Zone 2 Recommended: Banned<agreed>
Hyrule Temple Recommended: Banned<agreed>
Mario Bros. Recommended: Banned<agreed>
New Pork City Recommended: Banned<agreed>
WarioWare inc. Recommended: Banned <agreed>

Ok, hold on a few minutes so I can see it and update it...

This is gonna be a long one...I am now going to go through every single stage and explain it. Pay attention, and you'll learn something. First off, arguments that do not deserve to be in this thread include: "I like this stage." SO WHAT?! "Please don't ban it." I don't care! Please people, post with some intelligence, it's very hard to make a professional list with newbie arguments. Here goes:

Battlefield: Doesn't need that much explanation. It's about as neutral as it gets.

Final Destination: Really, the ledge shouldn't bother you that much. It's as neutral as you can possibly get: completely flat. The ledge is similar to what Battlefield was in Melee, so get over it.

Smashville: Again, not much explanation. Flat as possible with a flat moving platform. Who cares that it moves?

Yoshi's Island Brawl: There was some controversy on this stage, but it has been decided that the tilt in the stage is too slight to matter. The ledge's tilt is similar to Yoshi's Story from Melee too, and that was neutral. It's a neutral stage, end of discussion.

Lylat Cruise: This stage should stay just how it is for now, and I think we all agree on it. It could be neutral, but some believe that the tilt can screw up enough players to cause it to be counterpick. They're argument is very real and very legitimate, so we will keep it as an optional counterpick stage. Other than the tilt though, it is very flat and neutral. I think in the future this stage will work itself out.

I think it's safe to remove that optional from Delfino Plaza and Frigate Orpheon.

Delfino Plaza: Why would this stage be neutral??? It has temporary walk off blastzones, the terrain is never totally flat when it lands, there are obstacles in the way like umbrellas that don't qualify as platforms, there is water...why was this neutral? Seriously.

Frigate Orpheon: Again, I see no good reason to keep this neutral. The terrain's not that flat, there is a moving platform, the stage flips(regardless of how much warning you get, it still flips), and on one side there is no ledge to grab. That last point in particular makes this completely and totally CP, never neutral.

Bridge of Eldin: This stage, too, has had a lot of controversy. It does have walk-off blastzones, but due to recent talk in here(coughcoughAlexcoughcough), it has been made known to me and as well as others that the chain-grabbing issue is not as big as it used to be. While I still am not sure of this personally, I agree with their arguments and therefore keep this stage counterpick. The Bulbin's and the bomb aren't that big a problem either, and neither is the resultant camping. People used to camp all the time in Pokemon Stadium in Melee with the rock transformation and with the fire transformation. It's not that big a deal and the bridge does come back.

Brinstar: This stage has very little that should pose a threat to anybody. The lava is bearable, and plus this stage was a counterpick in Melee, and the stage has changed zero bit from Melee. So why dispute it?

Castle Siege: Again, why would you have a stage like this as neutral? It almost qualifies as neutral, but almost doesn't count. The shift to the second area makes this an undisputed counterpick.

Halberd: This stage has been agreed upon for quite some time, and yet people still continue to argue it being neutral, or heaven forbid...BANNED?!? Why would this stage ever be banned? There is absolutely nothing potent enough in the background to make it banned. Might as well ban any stage with background effects like this if this is bad. Brinstar has lava, and it's not banned (just an example). The laser can easily be DI'd out of to the tip, where the sweetspot is NOT. Therefore it's OK. The bomb is incredulous, it can be avoided easily but it is still there. So is the claw, therefore making it a counterpick. These things are easily avoided so it's not ban worthy. No more discussion on this stage now please.

Luigi's Mansion: Again, why would this stage be a neutral? It is, like Castle Siege, almost neutral, but again that doesn't count. The mansion itself is what makes it not neutral. It blocks projectiles and takes the hit for some attacks too. It also has three levels. Once it's destroyed it builds back up. It's not quite neutral. Almost, but not quite. If you want to know who to counterpick on this stage, use it against projectile people.

Jungle Japes: This stage needs no discussion. It has the water with a current, it has good, flat platforms all with edges on all sides. The fish is there yes, but isn't there for a very long time. Plus, it was a counterpick in Melee and it hasn't changed except you can swim now, so why make it banned in this game?

Hanenbow: Although there has been some disputes with this stage, I think it's safe to say that people agree with it being a counterpick. It does not change the motion of the game enough to make it banned. Nothing attacks you or bothers you at all. You can shape the way the platforms look, but who cares? They're still platforms. It kind of promotes camping, but that is a legitimate strategy in this game, so get over it. Great for campers.

Onett: This stage remains very similar to the way it was in Melee. I don't see why we would change it to banned. The walk-offs aren't really a problem here because they are so short and small.

Pirate Ship: Although some still have disputes in here, most of us agree that this should stay a counterpick. There isn't that much that is fatal in this stage. Why isn't ship-spiking a big deal? Because as soon as you hit the water you can start DI-ing away from it. If you get hit by the stern of the ship, you're an idiot for not moving away from it. The gravity change does not last that long. The bombs are basically just a background effect, and they don't really kill you or have killing potential. The catapult is the only real concern to the stage, and since it comes out scarcely and you can move off of it, it shouldn't matter that much.

Rainbow Cruise: Again, not much to say. It remains virtually unchanged from Melee, so why change it to banned all of a sudden? The stage moves, yes, but it has no obstacles that really get in your way at the same time or things that attack you, like Rumble Falls or Mushroomy Kingdom.

Port Town Aero Dive: This stage still remains in a lot of discussion. However, right now it appears to be favoring a counterpick side. The cars do a lot of damage, yes, but they are not there for very long. And the one part where they go super fast and kill you, you should know to be on the top platform. They go for about 2-3 seconds and then are gone. Not a long time, and other than that it is just like Mute City. I see no reason to ban it.

Spear Pillar, Summit, 75 m, Big Blue, Flat Zone 2, Hyrule Temple, Mario Bros., New Pork City, Warioware Inc.: All these stages have a general consensus of being flat out banned. They really need no discussion. EVER.

Rumble Falls: This stage is still in controversy. However, I think it's leaning towards the banned side right now. I personally agree with that too. Not only does it move, and it doesn't move like Rainbow Cruise because it moves only in an upward direction, it has obstacles that get in the way. It has spikes that kill you very quickly. At the beginning of the stage, for example, there is a wall that you can destroy, and if you get stuck under there after you've destroyed it, you're not going to live, especially if the stage speeds up. There's a million other things that particular spot does too. I am definitely not for this stage at all.

Mushroomy Kingdom: This stage has had a little bit of controversy, but not much. Most agree on it being banned. I agree. If you get the 1-2 stage, the underground one? Wow...that stage is so easily deemed banned, you would have a harder time eating breakfast. It's like a moving form of the lower level of Hyrule Temple. It's ridiculous. It's a tech-city, bounce off the wall damage fest, and no one dies. I don't even think it's possible to finish a match(stock wise)in the legal time limit of 6-8 minutes. The desert form, however, is slightly arguable to keep as counterpick. I wouldn't, simply because the other form is banned and this form still has blocks all over the place, interrupting movement, allowing for all sorts of techs off of everything, and the walk-off blastzones are super easy to abuse, partly because of the side-scrolling. This version of the stage seems to easy to die on, at least on the parts where there are no blocks around. I would just say outright ban it.

Pokemon Stadium: This stage has not really had that much controversy past the windmill incident. It should just be a counterpick. There isn't that much else to discuss about it. Yes, it was a neutral in Melee, but that's because the windmill wasn't considered a ceiling and a solid object. Now, however, that has changed and therefore aspects of the stage have changed. This stage has probably had the most change from Melee.

Norfair: This stage has had a lot of controversy over the past few days. Yes, the lava wave can be deadly, but really, that is the only thing that is worth concern over. Everything else is similar to Brinstar, rising lava on the sides or from the bottom, what's the difference? The spraying lava isn't that powerful, and it can easily be avoided. The lava wave doesn't always kill you, and there are dozens of ways to avoid it. Grab the ledge at the right time, go in the capsule at your own risk( and take massive damage from your opponent), shield or dodge it, or just plain jump over it. I don't think these things are potent enough to make the stage banned. But many people seem to think otherwise. Just play on the stage a few more times, and then come and argue again. It's not that hard to avoid all the stuff. I guess it could still go either way though, but the general public of higher level players seem to agree that it should just stay counterpick.

Distant Planet: Now here's an interesting stage. We already have a lot of stages with instant kill animals, and the only one we've kept is Jungle Japes. I think this stage should stay as a CP, as do many others. The...thing, monster whatever it is can kill you in one hit yes, but so can the fish at Jungle Japes. You stay on the ledge at Jungle Japes at your own risk, just as you fight on the right side of Distant Planet with him around at your own risk. The walk-off blastzone is on a hill, so it's not a problem really. For now, it's staying a counterpick.

Wow...that took a long time and a lot of typing. Now, I ask one last time, for everyone to stop making their own list based off of their own reasoning. That is not what this thread is for. Just go off of this list and post why or why not you agree with whatever, though a lot of this has already been agreed upon. If you have a question on the reasoning behind a stage's placement, well, almost all of them are covered right here. Again, don't spam and make it hard to read through here with dumb arguments like "But I like that stage..." because it makes it really hard to find the good posts in here that actually pertain to this thread. Thank you.

Oh and the stages that are all below are there because I did not put them up in the explanations. I did not explain them because they have had little discussion as of late, and since no one has really clearly stated what they think about a stage, at least in a long while, I did not post anything about them.



Mario Circuit
Pokemon Stadium 2
Corneria
Green Greens
Green Hill Zone
Pictochat
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island(Melee)

Again, I will update this post every once in a while, so check back to this page and this post for the most recent list until I or Empy make another list, which will not be for a while.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, I agree with borderlining PS1 (thank God I'm at least this flexible) but why is Norfair in the same group as it's tamer counterpart? They don't really belong in the same group, but everything else is fine I guess, but I'll try helping with the stages you left out. Also, couldn't you lump all the stages with an optional together into a borderline group (Ex a neutral/Counter pick group with Lylat Cruise and Pokemon Stadium 1) just to say that it can go either way, or is the separation of borderline supposed to mean that it will go one way than the other.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Elaborate on what you mean by Norfair.

Thanks Charizard.

Making updates...

Man I'm tired. I'll update more tomorrow.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, Brinstar has one problem, and Norfair has four, and at least one of them (the lava wall is more often my case) can be exploited. But it isn't banned (I learned that the hard way), just docked from pure counter pick to counter pick to an optional ban, or in the extreme somewhat Twilight Zone case, the reverse. By the way, The reason PS2 is counter pick is that it is more active as I stated in my earlier list and (like what I should believe should happen to Norfair) is just below on the legal list. And Skyworld is between nothing happening that can seriously affect the battle to the Cave of life and potential to essentially (temporarily) be smashed out of the sky. You're welcome, and thanks for complimenting me on my first neutral list, now I know that the windmill is more annoying than I realized.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

No problem.

I think that Skyworld should be banned for a number of reasons. You can bounce people off of the upper platforms and spike them to their death off of it, kind of like at Termina Bay in Melee. It has breakable ledges, killing all forms of recovery for some people. The Cave of life=tech city, which means people live to very high percents and for long periods of time. I think it should be banned because of those reasons. Everyone agree or disagree?

I think I might change Norfair to an optional ban, but that depends on the opinions of everyone else in here. Right now it's looking to stay where it is as just plain old counterpick.

 

[cultofrubik]

Skyworld should definitely be a ban.

Great list Erich! Very informative.


I'd personally love to see Green Hill Zone as a counterpick...but those balloon things seem to screw some people over.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

As for the debate for Skyworld there is a thread in the Stage Discussion, but it is pretty much a shouting match so who knows whether or not it will be helpful. Personally I believe it should be banned.

 

[AlexX]

Delfino Plaza: Why would this stage be neutral??? It has temporary walk off blastzones, the terrain is never totally flat when it lands, there are obstacles in the way like umbrellas that don't qualify as platforms, there is water...why was this neutral? Seriously.

Walk-off isn't as terrible as you make it seem, and last what? 20 seconds? Why don't the umbrellas count as platforms? And what's wrong with water? Just spike someone in the water to kill them.

Frigate Orpheon: Again, I see no good reason to keep this neutral. The terrain's not that flat, there is a moving platform, the stage flips(regardless of how much warning you get, it still flips), and on one side there is no ledge to grab. That last point in particular makes this completely and totally CP, never neutral.

The terrain on either side is hardly a reason to make it CP. A hazard simply existing shouldn't be enough to auto-CP a stage, because treating minor and easily avoidable ones the same as ones that are far more difficult to avoid and more painful if hit by (see: Port Town, which is arguably CP).

Castle Siege: Again, why would you have a stage like this as neutral? It almost qualifies as neutral, but almost doesn't count. The shift to the second area makes this an undisputed counterpick.

There's still room for debate on this one. Walk-off area is only temporary, the statues blocking projectiles can be broken down, and platforms above the stage prevent camping and waiting to be approached. There's also the fact Pokemon Stadium was neutral in Melee despite having a wall in one of the transformations. I'm sure better arguments exist for why this stage is a potential neutral option, but I'm just throwing a few out to give it a bit more discussion.

Halberd: This stage has been agreed upon for quite some time, and yet people still continue to argue it being neutral, or heaven forbid...BANNED?!? Why would this stage ever be banned? There is absolutely nothing potent enough in the background to make it banned. Might as well ban any stage with background effects like this if this is bad. Brinstar has lava, and it's not banned (just an example). The laser can easily be DI'd out of to the tip, where the sweetspot is NOT. Therefore it's OK. The bomb is incredulous, it can be avoided easily but it is still there. So is the claw, therefore making it a counterpick. These things are easily avoided so it's not ban worthy. No more discussion on this stage now please.

What's the point of a discussion thread if not debate? The fact the hazards are incredibly easy to avoid and don't kill until incredibly high percentages prevent it from being banned, but I still personally think that the magnitude of the hazards should come into play when deciding a stage's placement. For example, if it's possible to go entire competitions without anyone getting hit by a stage's hazards, then it's clear the hazards do not impact gameplay enough for them to be a reason for CP-ing the stage.

Hanenbow: Although there has been some disputes with this stage, I think it's safe to say that people agree with it being a counterpick. It does not change the motion of the game enough to make it banned. Nothing attacks you or bothers you at all. You can shape the way the platforms look, but who cares? They're still platforms. It kind of promotes camping, but that is a legitimate strategy in this game, so get over it. Great for campers.

I personally think it benefits people with strong airgames more than campers since you're going to be spending a lot of time in the air for one reason or another. The fact the leaves can be angled to block projectiles helps that. I agree it should be a CP though, and I do enjoy picking it, myself when given the option.

Pirate Ship: Although some still have disputes in here, most of us agree that this should stay a counterpick. There isn't that much that is fatal in this stage. Why isn't ship-spiking a big deal? Because as soon as you hit the water you can start DI-ing away from it. If you get hit by the stern of the ship, you're an idiot for not moving away from it. The gravity change does not last that long. The bombs are basically just a background effect, and they don't really kill you or have killing potential. The catapult is the only real concern to the stage, and since it comes out scarcely and you can move off of it, it shouldn't matter that much.

Words can't express how much I agree with the bolded statement. Really, it's not that hard to avoid the bow, and if you do hit it it's your own fault (and feel free to hold me to that, too).

Rumble Falls: This stage is still in controversy. However, I think it's leaning towards the banned side right now. I personally agree with that too. Not only does it move, and it doesn't move like Rainbow Cruise because it moves only in an upward direction, it has obstacles that get in the way. It has spikes that kill you very quickly. At the beginning of the stage, for example, there is a wall that you can destroy, and if you get stuck under there after you've destroyed it, you're not going to live, especially if the stage speeds up. There's a million other things that particular spot does too. I am definitely not for this stage at all.

If that cave really frightens you so much, just don't go into it. You can easily just jump on top of it and fight the opponent there.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Skyworld is definitely a ban, absolutely no doubt about that. I was playing my friends earlier today on it and if you spam attacks such as usmashes, Pikachu's dsmash, or Cpt. Falcon's side B, you can combo them and then eventually, when they are at high percentages, use it near the edge where they will hit the ceiling of the platform above you, bounce off, and spike down to their death.

 

[AlexX]

EDIT: Whoops! Double-post.... Well, I guess I might as well make use of this new post while I'm here:

Luigi's Mansion: Again, why would this stage be a neutral? It is, like Castle Siege, almost neutral, but again that doesn't count. The mansion itself is what makes it not neutral. It blocks projectiles and takes the hit for some attacks too. It also has three levels. Once it's destroyed it builds back up. It's not quite neutral. Almost, but not quite. If you want to know who to counterpick on this stage, use it against projectile people.

To be fair, you could destroy all but one pillar to keep it in pieces. I admit there's probably no way to prevent this from being a CP stage, but I figure I might as well throw some arguments out there.

 

[freeman123]

I think Frigate Orpheon should be a neutral stage. The only thing that happens is the stage flips over every now and then, and it barely effects the match at all.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Port Town Aero Dive:This stage still remains in a lot of discussion. However, right now it appears to be favoring a counterpick side. The cars do a lot of damage, yes, but they are not there for very long. And the one part where they go super fast and kill you, you should know to be on the top platform. They go for about 2-3 seconds and then are gone. Not a long time, and other than that it is just like Mute City. I see no reason to ban it.

The cars can appear on ALL parts of the track and ALL of them can kill at lower percentages.
That one section with the top platform is quite small and you honestly don't believe your opponent is going to leave you alone until the cars pass. Not to mention the lack of warning and the fact that more often than not you will be in the percentage that its an assurred death. Nor is it exactly possible to remain on the top platform without getting killed or damaged by your opponent. Its very restrictive IMO.

Not only that but if you barely touch the track and building (when they are vertical) you will go flying off the side and will take a large amount of damage.
Mute City gave you a good amount of time to dodge since you saw the cars coming. The only damage was from the cars and the track.
In Aero drives its cars (faster, more powreful), the track (both side and ground) as well as the segment with a buildong ont he left side which can knock you off the stage and onto the track below.


Mushroomy Kingdom: The desert form, however, is slightly arguable to keep as counterpick. I wouldn't, simply because the other form is banned and this form still has blocks all over the place, interrupting movement, allowing for all sorts of techs off of everything, and the walk-off blastzones are super easy to abuse, partly because of the side-scrolling. This version of the stage seems to easy to die on, at least on the parts where there are no blocks around. I would just say outright ban it.[/quote]

You can choose which stage you get.
So yo no longer have to worry about stage1-2. It was announced on the dojo how to do it.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I think Frigate Orpheon should be a neutral stage. The only thing that happens is the stage flips over every now and then, and it barely effects the match at all.

I saw a tournament video, where Pikachu was recovering while the stage flipped, and it caused him to die and lose the match. (and the set?) I don't have the link though.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

I think Frigate Orpheon should be a neutral stage. The only thing that happens is the stage flips over every now and then, and it barely effects the match at all.

i've died before from this stage flipping... it has killed my pikmin and i couldn't recover, it has flipped and made me land on the platform that goes off the ledge... and due to the natural lag... i have died, and the ledge to the right (depending on which way the stage is atm) can't be grabbed.

 

[MysticKenji]

Onett: This stage remains very similar to the way it was in Melee. I don't see why we would change it to banned. The walk-offs aren't really a problem here because they are so short and small.

I'd just like to point out that Onett was banned in Melee (Waveshine)

Mario Circuit
Pokemon Stadium 2
Green Greens
Green Hill Zone
Pictochat

Counterpick

Corneria
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island(Melee)

CP/ban borderline

...platforms above the stage prevent camping and waiting to be approached.

Not really.

I think Frigate Orpheon should be a neutral stage. The only thing that happens is the stage flips over every now and then, and it barely effects the match at all.

1. There's no ledge on the right side of the first form
2. The flip moves the blastline
3. The flip moves you, no matter where you are
4. The flip gimps some recoveries

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I saw a tournament video, where Pikachu was recovering while the stage flipped, and it caused him to die and lose the match. (and the set?) I don't have the link though.

You mean this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD8g_Xt34-Q

This was Pika's fault for being there at the wrong time. The siren gives off a 3 - 8 second warning not to mention the camera zooms out just before turnimg which is enough time to react. This is the only time I've seen this happen.

BTW, this was a friendly.

To put it simply: it's not random. No Johns. Counterpick. the End.

 

[AlexX]

i've died before from this stage flipping... it has killed my pikmin and i couldn't recover, it has flipped and made me land on the platform that goes off the ledge... and due to the natural lag... i have died, and the ledge to the right (depending on which way the stage is atm) can't be grabbed.

If the stage flips and you didn't bother to jump during the (obvious) warning, simply use your whistle to call all your pikmin back and then double jump towards the ledge, at which point you should be able to use your pikmin chain to grab it and save yourself. If you're worried about the ledge you can't grab, just jump towards the one you can.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, to help with explaining what Erich left alone without a description, Yoshi's Island (melee) was in the CP optional ban area for two reasons, 1, the blastzone to the right, and 2 the blocks in the center, which could be destroyed to have an extra area to meteor smash some one down. Mario Circuit Is a really obvious one, blast zones, (somewhat compounded by the carts, but like Brinstar, not much). And Shadow Moses has three problems, 1: the walls allow anyone with a continuous attack (ex Ivysaur) an easy way to rack up damage, 2: the walls also force a given advantage to those who can smash upwards well (ex once again, Ivysaur) and those with vertical weight (ex I'm guessing Bowser will be in this category), and 3: Once the walls are down, blastzones.

 

[smashbro29]

If I could make a suggestion why not take 1 stage a day and take it apart and determine it that way if I'm not mistaken FD Battlefield Yoshi's Island Lylat Cruise Smashville are all neutral may I suggest we do the Halberd first?