Optimizing Link

[SAUS]

Wouldn't you have to cancel the rang catch animation with something tho? Or do you mean that after catching animation link is still +9 which I find difficult to believe.

You have to cancel the rang catch animation, but it is like 1 frame that you can't do anything and then the rest of the animation is all IASA frames.

 

[Hunybear]

Anyone Compile practical NIL setups?

 

[link7]

So our UpB stales after one hit, making it harder for us to recover with a bomb jump. Somebody told me that it takes 15 hits using different moves to unstale our UpB, and they can't be projectiles. My question is this; can hitting our own bombs with other moves unstale our UpB? I can see this coming in handy if our opponent is unable to recover, or is being star KOed. Pull out one or two bombs, and Uair them or jab at them.

 

[SAUS]

So our UpB stales after one hit, making it harder for us to recover with a bomb jump. Somebody told me that it takes 15 hits using different moves to unstale our UpB, and they can't be projectiles. My question is this; can hitting our own bombs with other moves unstale our UpB? I can see this coming in handy if our opponent is unable to recover, or is being star KOed. Pull out one or two bombs, and Uair them or jab at them.

AFAIK, you can't stale except by hitting characters, but I could be wrong.

It is not 15 hits. I think it is either 9 or 11, but I can't remember. Projectiles DO count, just item projectiles do not. This counts Link's bombs and Peach's turnips, but Link's boomerang and arrow do stale / refresh the stale moves list.

Also I really think it is not a huge issue to worry about. If I don't die after a bomb jump, I consider it a mistake on my opponent's part (unless there was nothing they could do, but that is suuuper rare).

 

[Hunybear]

So our UpB stales after one hit, making it harder for us to recover with a bomb jump. Somebody told me that it takes 15 hits using different moves to unstale our UpB, and they can't be projectiles. My question is this; can hitting our own bombs with other moves unstale our UpB? I can see this coming in handy if our opponent is unable to recover, or is being star KOed. Pull out one or two bombs, and Uair them or jab at them.

http://smashboards.com/threads/consistent-bomb-jumping.383355/
Stale moves Have 10 slots. Pummeling and throws take up slots so if you say, hit with Up B OOS and need to unstable the move. Pummeling is a great way to take up slots if they don't mash out.

 

[SAUS]

So apparently this is a thing:
https://gfycat.com/GregariousFreeBedbug

Catching your boomerang cancels your shield let-go lag (it is something like 15-20 frames after you let go of the shield button while shielding where you can't do anything - pretty much why shielding is so limiting in melee). You basically have to let go of shield just before you catch the boomerang, and then you are in IASA frames and can dash / jab / etc.

Not super applicable since you have to wait for the boomerang - people will know if you do it a bunch, but still something to watch for if you are ever stuck in shield. It's also not super great since there are not a lot of moves that Link can do that are better than what he can do OOS. Jab is nice, but bad against CC if they are too close. Many other options are the same speed as up-b, so not amazingly better. Dashing away seems good, though.

 

[Dan Salvato]

So apparently this is a thing:
https://gfycat.com/GregariousFreeBedbug

Catching your boomerang cancels your shield let-go lag (it is something like 15-20 frames after you let go of the shield button while shielding where you can't do anything - pretty much why shielding is so limiting in melee). You basically have to let go of shield just before you catch the boomerang, and then you are in IASA frames and can dash / jab / etc.

Not super applicable since you have to wait for the boomerang - people will know if you do it a bunch, but still something to watch for if you are ever stuck in shield. It's also not super great since there are not a lot of moves that Link can do that are better than what he can do OOS. Jab is nice, but bad against CC if they are too close. Many other options are the same speed as up-b, so not amazingly better. Dashing away seems good, though.

Unfortunately, it's not even as good as this. You can *only* cancel the boomerang catch with a dash. You can't jab or dsmash or anything. So your only options are really dash attack and grab, and dash away.

EDIT: Another correction, you have to press jump before letting go of shield. The boomerang catch cancels jumpsquat, but you still have to make sure you're not holding shield or you'll just buffer back into shield.

Anyone Compile practical NIL setups?

NIL is easiest and arguably most useful with the Battlefield top platform. You can NIL simply by double jumping at the peak of your first jump. My most frequent use for it is after a uthrow or uair to get basically a free grab. See this clip:
https://gfycat.com/HandmadeEvergreenDaddylonglegs

I also use it like this sometimes:
https://gfycat.com/JealousSlightIndianskimmer

You can NIL on the side platforms by double jumping right after your first jump, but it's something like frame 3-4 rather than frame 1, so the timing is a little tough. It's probably worth getting consistent. I think on Yoshi's you can NIL the top platform by running of the side platform and double jumping immediately, and on DL you can NIL the top platform by double jumping at around 3/4 the height of your first jump.


Side note, is anyone down for a Link server on Discord? That'd be my ideal solution for keeping in touch with the Links of the world.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

So apparently this is a thing:
https://gfycat.com/GregariousFreeBedbug

Catching your boomerang cancels your shield let-go lag (it is something like 15-20 frames after you let go of the shield button while shielding where you can't do anything - pretty much why shielding is so limiting in melee). You basically have to let go of shield just before you catch the boomerang, and then you are in IASA frames and can dash / jab / etc.

Not super applicable since you have to wait for the boomerang - people will know if you do it a bunch, but still something to watch for if you are ever stuck in shield. It's also not super great since there are not a lot of moves that Link can do that are better than what he can do OOS. Jab is nice, but bad against CC if they are too close. Many other options are the same speed as up-b, so not amazingly better. Dashing away seems good, though.

Fits my playstyle perfectly. I get a lot of returning rangs when Im shielding. Tried it out, and its not really releasing the shield that triggers this. You need to Jump cancel the shield then rang cancel the jump and lastly cancel the rang catch animation by dashing instantaneously. Or thats what you need to do to get it in PAL.

Nice find whoever found this

 

[ChivalRuse]

I just felt like posting in here that wavedash back d-tilt is single handedly serving me up free wins with Link. It's so freaking good.

 

[SAUS]

Fits my playstyle perfectly. I get a lot of returning rangs when Im shielding. Tried it out, and its not really releasing the shield that triggers this. You need to Jump cancel the shield then rang cancel the jump and lastly cancel the rang catch animation by dashing instantaneously. Or thats what you need to do to get it in PAL.

Nice find whoever found this

Ya I haven't tested it out too much. Just a couple times over the weekend and couldn't get it to work. I likely had it wrong in my other post. I will try it with jumping.

I just felt like posting in here that wavedash back d-tilt is single handedly serving me up free wins with Link. It's so freaking good.

Link's d-tilt is really good when you can land it. This is definitely one of the places to use it. It beats ASDI down sooner than d-smash and pops them up very nicely for combos.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Speaking of combos, do you guys do your uairs while falling rather than rising to get the most out of the hitstun? Due to Link's long l-cancel recovery, I'm having trouble extending my combos the way I want.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Speaking of combos, do you guys do your uairs while falling rather than rising to get the most out of the hitstun? Due to Link's long l-cancel recovery, I'm having trouble extending my combos the way I want.

Whats really important if you want long comboes is that you use the weak hit uair at higher percentages. A way of doing that is throwing out the uair besides the opponent as you move sideways into them.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Speaking of combos, do you guys do your uairs while falling rather than rising to get the most out of the hitstun? Due to Link's long l-cancel recovery, I'm having trouble extending my combos the way I want.

Whats really important if you want long comboes is that you use the weak hit uair at higher percentages. A way of doing that is throwing out the uair besides the opponent as you move sideways into them.

Weak uair to dair is a Link staple against spacies, it's responsible for a fair portion of kill setups. Relevant gif
https://gfycat.com/ImperfectForsakenAlbino

 

[ChivalRuse]

Thanks. I'll try that and see if it helps.

 

[Hunybear]

Unfortunately, it's not even as good as this. You can *only* cancel the boomerang catch with a dash. You can't jab or dsmash or anything. So your only options are really dash attack and grab, and dash away.

EDIT: Another correction, you have to press jump before letting go of shield. The boomerang catch cancels jumpsquat, but you still have to make sure you're not holding shield or you'll just buffer back into shield.


NIL is easiest and arguably most useful with the Battlefield top platform. You can NIL simply by double jumping at the peak of your first jump. My most frequent use for it is after a uthrow or uair to get basically a free grab. See this clip:
https://gfycat.com/HandmadeEvergreenDaddylonglegs

I also use it like this sometimes:
https://gfycat.com/JealousSlightIndianskimmer

You can NIL on the side platforms by double jumping right after your first jump, but it's something like frame 3-4 rather than frame 1, so the timing is a little tough. It's probably worth getting consistent. I think on Yoshi's you can NIL the top platform by running of the side platform and double jumping immediately, and on DL you can NIL the top platform by double jumping at around 3/4 the height of your first jump.


Side note, is anyone down for a Link server on Discord? That'd be my ideal solution for keeping in touch with the Links of the world.

Im interested in the Link discord group.
also while your here, seeing as how you are one of the most knowledgeable players maybe can you shine some light on links tether sweet spot. I asked about it earlier but no one seems to know anything. here's the questions

Questions about links tether sweet spot
Sooo... Apparently this is some complicated crap. From my understanding Link must be close enough to grab the edge prior to the tether braking for the instant edge grab.
There are two factored that play into the speed link travels to the stage. The distance between link and the stage and the time link is in his 313 animation. (tethered to the stage)
Link will move toward the stage faster when he is further from the stage. Link will also move tward the stage faster when you real in sooner. This is indicated by a little diamond that slowly moves downward thought links 313 animation.
There is also a small frame window that link can only tether sweet spot in. The problem is that that frame window changes depending on what stage your on. This is the result of the tethers ECB doing different things and different stages.
Connecting the hook shot as high on the stage is "optimal" but not necessary and where it will sweet spot and where it won't will depend on the stage.

THE QUESTIONS.
What causes links tether to break prior to reaching the ledge?
Why does the tethers ECB do different things on different stages?
How can I test this for myself?
Where all can link sweet spot on the stages and what are the frame Windows for each? (This ones a tall order if you can answer)
Why is link so weird?

 

[squirrels4ev]

As far as your questions about sweet spotting Link's tether go, let me first clarify that sweetspotting his tether is when you place or time it in such a way that you instantly snap to the stage from a long distance.

When you said "From my understanding Link must be close enough to grab the edge prior to the tether br[e]aking for the instant edge grab", this is a different instant edge grab than a sweetspotted tether and while I think it's explained in one of the newer Link tech threads I'll reiterate here. Whenever Link is within a certain (short) distance of a wall and he tethers to that wall, the tether will break upon colliding with the wall and Link will move into his helpless fall state (the one you enter after the end of up-B). From this state, Link can grab the edge if he is within close proximity (closer than necessary to break the hookshot) to the edge.

P.S. - Just read the specific questions at the end of the post and this answers the first one I guess

The tether's ECB does different things on different stages because each stage has a differently shaped wall and edge combination
I'm not 100% what you mean by "this" when you ask "How can I test this for myself?", but you can test sweetspot spacing (not timing) visually in any game, even vanilla melee by using your eyes to see where you have to place a hookshot to instantly reel in. If spaced correctly Link will always snap to edge (as long as it's not occupied) even if you wait until you are dangling. As you mentioned you need to connect your hookshot high on the stage, close to the edge to get this kind of sweetspot. With Dolphin you could probably use savestates and advance the game 1 frame at a time to see the frame windows you have on each stage and at different positions for frame windows, but I wouldn't recommend this. The longer you play around with hookshot recovery the more natural it will get to sweetspot, and you'll know when you have one before you press A to reel in.

To my knowledge the frame windows for the timing sweetspot vary on each stage depending on where your hookshot connects to the wall, which makes learning them all impractical when you only need to learn the one for if you miss your sweetspot positioning by shooting a little bit too low. If you shoot too high to sweetspot by spacing you will shoot your hookshot above the stage or break your hookshot more often then you actually connect to the stage, and it seems like you can only ever connect in that way on Battlefield for some reason. I think Kadano's post about the sweetspot mentions the timing is similar to a wavedash so if you go for that timing every time and you aim for the positional sweetspot every time when you want a sweetspot you should be hitting most of them with practice. Basically the idea is to try to get the positional one but do the timing just in case you miss the spacing.

The drawback to trying to sweetspot every time is that your airdodge becomes predictable and most characters can hit you if they know where you are airdodging. Sheik can do this the most easily but Marth, Falcon, and Fox can also do this. Sometimes you need to mix it up by aiming lower on the wall and releasing so that the apex of your hookshotjump sweetspots the ledge (that hookshotjump is about as high as Link's SH, if not a bit higher) or by using up-B early to catch someone who is going to jump offstage to intercept where they expect you to airdodge. This is only necessary against players that know how to edgeguard hookshot.

 

[Hunybear]

As far as your questions about sweet spotting Link's tether go, let me first clarify that sweetspotting his tether is when you place or time it in such a way that you instantly snap to the stage from a long distance.

When you said "From my understanding Link must be close enough to grab the edge prior to the tether br[e]aking for the instant edge grab", this is a different instant edge grab than a sweetspotted tether and while I think it's explained in one of the newer Link tech threads I'll reiterate here. Whenever Link is within a certain (short) distance of a wall and he tethers to that wall, the tether will break upon colliding with the wall and Link will move into his helpless fall state (the one you enter after the end of up-B). From this state, Link can grab the edge if he is within close proximity (closer than necessary to break the hookshot) to the edge.

P.S. - Just read the specific questions at the end of the post and this answers the first one I guess

The tether's ECB does different things on different stages because each stage has a differently shaped wall and edge combination
I'm not 100% what you mean by "this" when you ask "How can I test this for myself?", but you can test sweetspot spacing (not timing) visually in any game, even vanilla melee by using your eyes to see where you have to place a hookshot to instantly reel in. If spaced correctly Link will always snap to edge (as long as it's not occupied) even if you wait until you are dangling. As you mentioned you need to connect your hookshot high on the stage, close to the edge to get this kind of sweetspot. With Dolphin you could probably use savestates and advance the game 1 frame at a time to see the frame windows you have on each stage and at different positions for frame windows, but I wouldn't recommend this. The longer you play around with hookshot recovery the more natural it will get to sweetspot, and you'll know when you have one before you press A to reel in.

To my knowledge the frame windows for the timing sweetspot vary on each stage depending on where your hookshot connects to the wall, which makes learning them all impractical when you only need to learn the one for if you miss your sweetspot positioning by shooting a little bit too low. If you shoot too high to sweetspot by spacing you will shoot your hookshot above the stage or break your hookshot more often then you actually connect to the stage, and it seems like you can only ever connect in that way on Battlefield for some reason. I think Kadano's post about the sweetspot mentions the timing is similar to a wavedash so if you go for that timing every time and you aim for the positional sweetspot every time when you want a sweetspot you should be hitting most of them with practice. Basically the idea is to try to get the positional one but do the timing just in case you miss the spacing.

The drawback to trying to sweetspot every time is that your airdodge becomes predictable and most characters can hit you if they know where you are airdodging. Sheik can do this the most easily but Marth, Falcon, and Fox can also do this. Sometimes you need to mix it up by aiming lower on the wall and releasing so that the apex of your hookshotjump sweetspots the ledge (that hookshotjump is about as high as Link's SH, if not a bit higher) or by using up-B early to catch someone who is going to jump offstage to intercept where they expect you to airdodge. This is only necessary against players that know how to edgeguard hookshot.

Thanks For answering. I've come to a lot of the same conclusions myself but no hard data yet. "By hard data I mean frame Windows and Hookshot placements". By "this" I mean how could I test the hooks gots ECB interactions with the stage. I was just hopeing to avoid going frame by frame but I guess I will. Also I guess my question was about links teleport rather than his dangling sweet spot.
I've read all the Link boards and a lot of the Young Link boards as well looking for info. Even checked the Samus boards as well, but nothing is really documented aside from a Mangus post and kadano's post on the Marth boards. As for learning all the timings being impractical... Well yeah but I'm more interested in the machanics rather than the practical application. I'm pretty consistent, but it's all just by feel.

A couple of questions about links teleport.

I don't understand what causes the tether to break prior to wall collision. I know that the wall will break tether and put link into fall special, but often the tether will break before colliding with anything and link will do his tether jump. That's why link has to real in within a certain time frame to prevent the jump. Tho the time frame to teleport on battlefield is roughly a wave dash, it varys depending on the stage and where the hook shot attached to the stage.

I don't believe I have to be within close proximity to teleport to the edge because while testing I've teleported to the edge from max distance tether and even from link being above the edge. (Air dodge upward put me above).

 

[SAUS]

The close range thing is for a technique where you basically air dodge to the ledge. You air dodge at it and hookshot so that it cancels your air dodge. Link immediately goes into helpless fall state, but can grab the ledge immediately. You have to be in range to air dodge to where you can reach the ledge.

 

[Hunybear]

The close range thing is for a technique where you basically air dodge to the ledge. You air dodge at it and hookshot so that it cancels your air dodge. Link immediately goes into helpless fall state, but can grab the ledge immediately. You have to be in range to air dodge to where you can reach the ledge.

I know of that but I was saying that link doesn't have to within close proximity to the ledge in order to do the teleport tether recovery.

 

[SAUS]

I know of that but I was saying that link doesn't have to within close proximity to the ledge in order to do the teleport tether recovery.

I thought you were confused about it The proximity thing was only about this air dodging to the ledge technique. You definitely do not have to be close for it to work. I am not sure if distance matters at all.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I didn't know that's what was happening. It makes a lot more sense now that you broke it down.

 

[squirrels4ev]

I don't understand what causes the tether to break prior to wall collision. I know that the wall will break tether and put link into fall special, but often the tether will break before colliding with anything and link will do his tether jump. That's why link has to real in within a certain time frame to prevent the jump. Tho the time frame to teleport on battlefield is roughly a wave dash, it varys depending on the stage and where the hook shot attached to the stage.

Could you elaborate on wall collision and describe what you mean when you say the tether is breaking? I'm not sure if you mean: a) when you reel in slightly too late after you miss a positional sweetspot and break your tether by inputting A (before you are fully dangling), causing you to hookshotjump; or b) when you aim slightly too high on the stage from a distance and your hookshot connects with the wall visibly and then immediately breaks and sends you directly into SpecialFall (the helpless blinking fall state that all characters enter after their up-B ends in the air)

Reading what you posted makes it sound like your hookshot is just disappearing in midair before it hits anything and I've never seen that myself but maybe it's a TE thing or it's just really really rare. Do you mean the tether is breaking before Link collides with anything?

 

[Hunybear]

Could you elaborate on wall collision and describe what you mean when you say the tether is breaking? I'm not sure if you mean: a) when you reel in slightly too late after you miss a positional sweetspot and break your tether by inputting A (before you are fully dangling), causing you to hookshotjump; or b) when you aim slightly too high on the stage from a distance and your hookshot connects with the wall visibly and then immediately breaks and sends you directly into SpecialFall (the helpless blinking fall state that all characters enter after their up-B ends in the air)

Reading what you posted makes it sound like your hookshot is just disappearing in midair before it hits anything and I've never seen that myself but maybe it's a TE thing or it's just really really rare. Do you mean the tether is breaking before Link collides with anything?

I'm not talking about the dangle sweet spot tether, but the tether teleport where you can snap to the edge horizontaly. If you dont real in within a certain time frame you'll tether will break "causing jump" befor reaching the edge without collision into anything.

 

[squirrels4ev]

I'm not talking about the dangle sweet spot tether, but the tether teleport where you can snap to the edge horizontaly. If you dont real in within a certain time frame you'll tether will break "causing jump" befor reaching the edge without collision into anything.

That's just Link's tether behaving the way the programmers intended it to. The unusual situation is when you time the reel-in such that you snap to the ledge. I don't know specifically why the latter happens. I like to think of it like a NIL sort of thing where if you do it right you teleport to the platform but I don't think it functions like a NIL at all.

 

[Hunybear]

That's just Link's tether behaving the way the programmers intended it to. The unusual situation is when you time the reel-in such that you snap to the ledge. I don't know specifically why the latter happens. I like to think of it like a NIL sort of thing where if you do it right you teleport to the platform but I don't think it functions like a NIL at all.

NIL is just when your ECB touches the ground with a downward velocity of -1. It actually really simple. This is much more complicated, my recording crap came so I'll do testing tonight and really try to figure it all out in 20XX and Manguses physics mod. Hopefully I can get a real hard data.

 

[squirrels4ev]

So I was doing some training with DIing out of waveshines yesterday and noticed I've been doing it wrong this whole time. I was just smashing away and a little up when I was expecting to get shined because of the way you fall when hit in air, but I thought I remembered something about a different ground trajectory so I googled it and it looks like the best DI is straight up (or quartercircle from out to up if you're fast enough) to get out of a grounded waveshine (If anyone can confirm this it would be nice). I was sometimes able to jab the 20XX robot out of its wavedash with DI up>immediate jab. From here it's safest to dash away I think because a human Fox will most likely react to jab with hold down to CC a second jab and attempt to either grab, waveshine upsmash, upsmash, or fsmash. If you get shined off the edge of a platform to the stage below the best DI I think is instead straight down to get to ground fast enough to shield a following aerial. The same DI should be used to grab edge if a grounded shine is going to push you off the stage (don't forget to let go of down in time to grab edge).

Speaking of the edge, I don't see anyone using Link's invincible DJ stall and I see very few people that are consistently getting off the edge frame perfectly. This is understandable of transitioning players or dual mains but Link is able to let go of the edge about 4 frames sooner than every other character (except maybe YL but I don't think even YL has the fast cliffcatch animation). If you get this timing down Link's perfect ledgedash (without ECB manipulation) has 9 frames of actionable invincibility. This is enough time for the hitboxes of upB (8), dsmash (9), dash attack (1 frame dash +7), utilt (9), and jab (6) to come out. Dsmash, utilt, and turnaround upB are probably the most useful moves but require frame perfect timing to execute. You can also throw a bomb forward (7), backward (7), down(6), or dashing (1+8). A less difficult option is ledgedash>roll in. This gives 5 frames of leniency on the ledgedash (assuming you buffer the roll during the ledgedash) and will remain invincible through frame 19 of the 37 frame roll. You'll probably get hit again but this option makes your opponent have to work to get you offstage again. Spotdodge dsmash or utilt can be used as a bait but is otherwise strictly worse than the frame perfect moves without spotdodge. Aerial bomb tosses (6, all directions) can also be done invincibly directly out of your ledge jump if you happen to have one in hand.

Last tidbit that I think I haven't actually seen anyone doing is using what I've taken to calling bomb DI. Basically it's a last resort for escaping techchases by displacing yourself unexpectedly. It's performed by Z-dropping a bomb just before you land and smash DIing in the direction you want to go. It's especially useful for getting out of platform techchases when you don't have a jump. It's more useful at higher percents where the bomb will send you further. I escaped Marth's tipper fsmash off the side platform of Battlefield without a jump the other day with it and because that move is so laggy I was able to take center stage off it.

Hopefully I can get a real hard data.

On a side note, did anything ever come of this? Been getting a better feel of when I'll sweetspot lately but that info would be nice to have. I know it's really complex though. Also thanks for the projectile frame data, bomb toss data is

 

[Hunybear]

So I was doing some training with DIing out of waveshines yesterday and noticed I've been doing it wrong this whole time. I was just smashing away and a little up when I was expecting to get shined because of the way you fall when hit in air, but I thought I remembered something about a different ground trajectory so I googled it and it looks like the best DI is straight up (or quartercircle from out to up if you're fast enough) to get out of a grounded waveshine (If anyone can confirm this it would be nice). I was sometimes able to jab the 20XX robot out of its wavedash with DI up>immediate jab. From here it's safest to dash away I think because a human Fox will most likely react to jab with hold down to CC a second jab and attempt to either grab, waveshine upsmash, upsmash, or fsmash. If you get shined off the edge of a platform to the stage below the best DI I think is instead straight down to get to ground fast enough to shield a following aerial. The same DI should be used to grab edge if a grounded shine is going to push you off the stage (don't forget to let go of down in time to grab edge).

Speaking of the edge, I don't see anyone using Link's invincible DJ stall and I see very few people that are consistently getting off the edge frame perfectly. This is understandable of transitioning players or dual mains but Link is able to let go of the edge about 4 frames sooner than every other character (except maybe YL but I don't think even YL has the fast cliffcatch animation). If you get this timing down Link's perfect ledgedash (without ECB manipulation) has 9 frames of actionable invincibility. This is enough time for the hitboxes of upB (8), dsmash (9), dash attack (1 frame dash +7), utilt (9), and jab (6) to come out. Dsmash, utilt, and turnaround upB are probably the most useful moves but require frame perfect timing to execute. You can also throw a bomb forward (7), backward (7), down(6), or dashing (1+8). A less difficult option is ledgedash>roll in. This gives 5 frames of leniency on the ledgedash (assuming you buffer the roll during the ledgedash) and will remain invincible through frame 19 of the 37 frame roll. You'll probably get hit again but this option makes your opponent have to work to get you offstage again. Spotdodge dsmash or utilt can be used as a bait but is otherwise strictly worse than the frame perfect moves without spotdodge. Aerial bomb tosses (6, all directions) can also be done invincibly directly out of your ledge jump if you happen to have one in hand.

Last tidbit that I think I haven't actually seen anyone doing is using what I've taken to calling bomb DI. Basically it's a last resort for escaping techchases by displacing yourself unexpectedly. It's performed by Z-dropping a bomb just before you land and smash DIing in the direction you want to go. It's especially useful for getting out of platform techchases when you don't have a jump. It's more useful at higher percents where the bomb will send you further. I escaped Marth's tipper fsmash off the side platform of Battlefield without a jump the other day with it and because that move is so laggy I was able to take center stage off it.


On a side note, did anything ever come of this? Been getting a better feel of when I'll sweetspot lately but that info would be nice to have. I know it's really complex though. Also thanks for the projectile frame data, bomb toss data is

About the shine DI. If your being wave shined you should mix it up between strait up and strait down. Most foxes only use 1 WD length so if you DI up they have to go far out. Then DI down so they over shoot and shine you behind them. I learned very early how to DI shine because one of my friends loves WaveShining new players like I was. In any which case whenever you get shined of something just FF asap.

Also nothing conclusive yet about the tether teleport. I'm pretty busy but I'll try doing more testing probably in Manguses input display mod and see if I can't come up with something.

 

[Team Plasma N]

Wait, so I've been dealing with waveshines incorrectly this whole time? I thought we were supposed to mix up SDI with them (either towards or away). Guess it's time to test this.