Ottawa Melee Thread - Updated Summer 2016 Power Rankings!

[BC AL]

Edit: disregard

 

[Charlesz]

Thanks will. And I dropped marth to play falco lololool

 

[Linkshot]

How to beat Fox:

Adopt rabbit
Buy shotgun
???
Profit

 

[BL!TZ]

ye my falcon is gay
BL!TZ would probably refuse to teach me, as he moonwalks ALL DAI EVERYDAI

Falcon could be gayer by tech chasing more (ie. up-throw -> tech chase -> up-throw -> etc). Actually maybe I should do it more. To be honest my moon-walking could be much better.

 

[Get@Will]

Falcon's only way to against spacies is tech chasing. It leads into all your finishers (Knee, uair, Knee, bair, Knee, fsmash, and Knee). A good spacie will never let you grab them easily, which makes the match up even gayer, especially against a good Falco. You have to punish miss techs, especially at the ledge because they're a godsend for a Falcon player. Remember, kneeing your opponent who's lying on the ground will send them at a downwards trajectory, which can lead into early % deaths.

I definitely wanna see more vids of your Falcon Al, and yours too Blitz.

Saw some vids of your Fox Charlesz. Good ****. You choked hard on the Dream Land match though. I'm seeing some mistakes, but I'm sure your Fox will turn into a **** machine with some polishing up.

 

[BL!TZ]

Falcon's only way to against spacies is tech chasing. It leads into all your finishers (Knee, uair, Knee, bair, Knee, fsmash, and Knee). A good spacie will never let you grab them easily, which makes the match up even gayer, especially against a good Falco. You have to punish miss techs, especially at the ledge because they're a godsend for a Falcon player. Remember, kneeing your opponent who's lying on the ground will send them at a downwards trajectory, which can lead into early % deaths.

Um... ya that too. You explained it better than I ever could, lol.

 

[PND]

I'm finally back in Ottawa. Let's play some melee some time.

 

[BL!TZ]

PND, I'll play you at Fogel's smashfests. Charlesz won't be hosting since he and BC AL have Highschool exams.

 

[Charlesz]

Pnd Is Back. Sweet

 

[BC AL]

Edit: disregard

 

[Linkshot]

**** the MBR. Too stage restrictive.

 

[arsenic41]

wtf Wak was here?

 

[BL!TZ]

Wak was here.

Fogel's stage striking is better than MBR's in my opinion.

 

[Get@Will]

He came.
He saw.
He got conquered by Al.

Blitz ninja posted me.

 

[BC AL]

Edit: disregard

 

[BL!TZ]

lol i like the stage restrictions better since theres less gay counterpicks

That is true. Personally I don't mind them until people start doing broken crap.

 

[Fogel]

iunno man, most of those stages lean favorable for fox and falco like pokemon stadium and corneria



lol i like the stage restrictions better since theres less gay counterpicks

For neutrals:

Since the only levels which are removed from neutral are PS and DK64, can you explain why they are biased towards space animals? FD is much better for spacies than PS from what I can see (can't get away from lasers, for one...at least on PS there are some transformations which help this).

As for DK64, I'd even say DK64 is actually a space animals counterpick.

• High ceiling means Fox can't KO upwards easily
• Easy for both Fox/Falco to miss grabbing the edge
• Lots of platforms means Falco can't control the stage as well with lasers

Also, IMO the MBR stage list is too biased towards Marth. 3 out of the 5 maps are great Marth stages: BF, FoD, YS. In a stage striking system, it's impossible to strike them all. In a random select, that's a 60% chance to land on one of those.


Counterpicks:

Mute City, Poke Floats, Green Greens, and Corneria are missing compared to what I've got. Most of these have been around for years, and I'm curious as to why they got dropped.

Mute City: I guess you could argue that it's too biased towards floaties. I hear it's actually a counterpick against Sheik though (a couple of people have tried against me in tournies, at least, and have claimed this) so it can be useful if people want to try that out.

Poke Floats: I'm not sure what the justification is for dropping this and not RC as well. Is it due to the falling through the stage glitch? It's a shame this is being dropped, because now IC mains can just always ban Rainbow Cruise.

Corneria: Dropped due to wing camping and the low ceiling, I guess? Any ideas?

Green Greens: Yeah, I guess this level is pretty dumb



I'm open to changing the stage list, but I'd like to hear some reasonable arguments.

 

[BC AL]

Edit: disregard

 

[BL!TZ]

Since the only levels which are removed from neutral are PS and DK64, can you explain why they are biased towards space animals? FD is much better for spacies than PS from what I can see (can't get away from lasers, for one...at least on PS there are some transformations which help this).

MBR removed PS for stage striking purposes. They felt that of the Neutral stages, PS was the least neutral. Personally I think that adding DK64 for stage striking is better, that's why I like your Starter Stage List more.

Mute City: I guess you could argue that it's too biased towards floaties. I hear it's actually a counterpick against Sheik though (a couple of people have tried against me in tournies, at least, and have claimed this) so it can be useful if people want to try that out.

The F-zero machines are pretty chaotic and interrupt the flow of battle, and there is a lack of ledges to grab. I'm not experienced enough on this stage to say, so I think we should keep it on so I can play it.

Poke Floats: I'm not sure what the justification is for dropping this and not RC as well. Is it due to the falling through the stage glitch? It's a shame this is being dropped, because now IC mains can just always ban Rainbow Cruise.

The shapes of the Pokémon are pretty weird to travel on. I have no argument against it, I would need to play it more.

Corneria: Dropped due to wing camping and the low ceiling, I guess? Any ideas?

You can camp on this pretty hard. When I play my brother on this, he camps on the lasers with Jigglypuff. I have no chance to get him.

Green Greens: Yeah, I guess this level is pretty dumb

Ya, that stage... is pretty dumb .

Edit: Whatchu talkin' about BC AL? Debating about it is a GOOD thing. Good for conversation anyways.

 

[Get@Will]

DK64:

• DK64 has always been known as a CP against the space animals for all the reasons you've listed. That's why it's staying on the CP list.

Pokemon Stadium:

• The neutral stage itself is a pretty good level. It's the transformations that had people questioning this stage. If they were stages by themselves, they'd certainly be banned.
• The transformations pack walls which can turn into infinites with Fox. In 2v2 this isn't a problem because your partner can help you escape, but in 1v1, there's no chance and you'll usually find yourself with one less stock against a Fox player.

Mute City:

• No ledge to grab hold of alot of people's recoveries, especially those who lean on sweetspotting (Marth, the space animals, Sheik).
• A good Peach/Puff is absolutely fatal on this stage. Their fierce edgeguarding can leave people with vulnerable recoveries dead at the lowest of %, especially space animals who's recovery tends to leave them open.
• The cars rack up damage fast. If you're a fast faller, you're looking usually at a good 20-30%.

Corneria:

• Ridiculous amounts of camping from spacies.
• The ceiling is stupidly low (can kill CF at 90% with an uncharged usmash)
• Infinites against the wall.

Green Greens:

• Fox's lasers go from one side of the stage to the other. Houston, we have camp off.
• Apples can turn into explosives = big trajectory.
• Explosive boxes = big trajectory.

The MBR stage list does certain look as if it seems to lean towards Marth. But you can't forget that those are also great stages for other characters.

• One can argue that Falco has the favor at BF despite the platforms turning fsmashes into tippers. The platforms help Falco with his combos on the semi-floaty Marth and it's ridiculous once he starts getting platform tech chases in.
• FoD is also a great space animal stage. The platforms don't really hurt their game since they abuse platforms with drop through attacks.
• YS is a great stage for everyone, not just Marth. Certainly a tipper here is easily obtained, but other characters can kill Marth equally as fast with a well placed Knee/shine/etc.

If you wanna solve problems concerning stages, just ban everything except for FD, coz it's the only stage that counts

You can camp on this pretty hard. When I play my brother on this, he camps on the lasers with Jigglypuff. I have no chance to get him.

Go to Corneria against Jigs.

 

[Linkshot]

lol i like the stage restrictions better since theres more gay wobbling

Fixedness.

 

[Charlesz]

I need counterpicks, cuz neutral stages are like counterpicks for marth.

 

[Wak]

loll just our set, but otherwise we re pretty even
and BL!TZ is good at that

Yeah he 3-0 me on the set,
sheik vs IC,
sheik vs marth,
falco vs IC

I insisted after this to have more game VS his ICs, such as Marth, Jiggs and Fox vs his IC and I won them all, but against my falco and sheik, Al was the best . It's something I really did not expect though, to lose 3-0 on the set, so probs to you Al.

 

[Get@Will]

Your speed run of LoZ: LTTP is awesome Wak.

 

[Wak]

Your speed run of LoZ: LTTP is awesome Wak.

Lol thanks =).. Which one did you watch exactly? I have done 3 categories of it.

 

[BC AL]

Edit: disregard

 

[Charlesz]

what did cam say about the counterpicks that are allowed

 

[BC AL]

Edit: disregard

 

[Charlesz]

Fod is mediocre for spacies and pretty bad for fox because his manuvering is worse here plus fod has the second highest ceiling in the game. I'm pretty sure i could cp jungle japes.

 

[BC AL]

Edit: disregard

 

[Charlesz]

My bad, if green greens and corneria get banned I'm maining sheik again. I guess I should explain my case to fogel.

 

[BL!TZ]

Charlesz, during the league I'll still play on your banned stages if you'll play on my banned stages.

 

[Charlesz]

I wont be planning on playing on banned stages. Assuming counterpicks don't get tossed.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm pretty lenient with stages, yo. I used to play with my cousin with all set to Random.

 

[Fogel]

I've responded to people's points in more detail below, but starting with moving Green Greens and Corneria to banned seems like a reasonable place to start. What does everyone think?

First of all, sorry, i didnt want to start an argument or anything, just wanted to hear wut others had to say first >_<
i guess i wasnt thinking very clearly on my posts of the spacies,
but for the counterpicks

Mute City: Im fine with Mute City

Poke Floats: ya, i agree with the falling through the stage glitch, Rainbow cruise at least has no glitches from what i have heard of... they re almost the same thing, just moving from platform to platform to fight. But then like you said you COULD just ban rainbow cruise...so ya up to you.

Corneria:
Low ceiling,
wing camping,
you can camp on the right side of the plane as well since the opponent will be forced to approach via jumping (which they are more vulnerable)
Foxes can drill shine you infinitely on the wall on the right side of the plane depending on the character
Falco can kill very easily due to his high jump and Shine -> shine off the top

Green Greens: i agree

but in the end, you can totally disregard everything i said, you re the host

No need to apologize for bringing it up. Debating the rulesets is a good thing, and leads to better rules in the long run.

Yeah, I definitely agree that Corneria has a lot of broken stuff to it (I never exactly tried to defend it in my post). I picked the initial stage list from what I could remember from CPs/banned stages, and tried to be a bit more liberal (hence why GG was legit).

MBR removed PS for stage striking purposes. They felt that of the Neutral stages, PS was the least neutral. Personally I think that adding DK64 for stage striking is better, that's why I like your Starter Stage List more.



The F-zero machines are pretty chaotic and interrupt the flow of battle, and there is a lack of ledges to grab. I'm not experienced enough on this stage to say, so I think we should keep it on so I can play it.



The shapes of the Pokémon are pretty weird to travel on. I have no argument against it, I would need to play it more.



You can camp on this pretty hard. When I play my brother on this, he camps on the lasers with Jigglypuff. I have no chance to get him.



Ya, that stage... is pretty dumb .

Edit: Whatchu talkin' about BC AL? Debating about it is a GOOD thing. Good for conversation anyways.

DK64 being on stage strike - Thanks

Mute City - The cars definitely interrupt the flow of battle. No ledges can be annoying, but they help a few other chars against the top tiers, which made me want to keep it around. Mute City was still used at Havoc in the Hammer, so I figured it was still used a lot and wanted to keep it around to play on.

Poke Floats - I'm not sure of the arguments for/against this. It allows another moving stage CP against ICs if they ban Rainbow. Fox is pretty good on this level I think, though Foxes have to be careful (especially near the end), because their recovery can make it hard to get on a platform. It's probably also good for Jiggs/Peach since they don't have to worry about stage transitions as much. I've played on it a few times in tourneys, but not often enough to have strong arguments either way.

Corneria - Although possible, in a tournament, your brother's strategy would count as stalling, and he'd most likely be DQed. That aside, it's definitely a camping level

DK64:

• DK64 has always been known as a CP against the space animals for all the reasons you've listed. That's why it's staying on the CP list.

Pokemon Stadium:

• The neutral stage itself is a pretty good level. It's the transformations that had people questioning this stage. If they were stages by themselves, they'd certainly be banned.
• The transformations pack walls which can turn into infinites with Fox. In 2v2 this isn't a problem because your partner can help you escape, but in 1v1, there's no chance and you'll usually find yourself with one less stock against a Fox player.

Mute City:

• No ledge to grab hold of alot of people's recoveries, especially those who lean on sweetspotting (Marth, the space animals, Sheik).
• A good Peach/Puff is absolutely fatal on this stage. Their fierce edgeguarding can leave people with vulnerable recoveries dead at the lowest of %, especially space animals who's recovery tends to leave them open.
• The cars rack up damage fast. If you're a fast faller, you're looking usually at a good 20-30%.

Corneria:

• Ridiculous amounts of camping from spacies.
• The ceiling is stupidly low (can kill CF at 90% with an uncharged usmash)
• Infinites against the wall.

Green Greens:

• Fox's lasers go from one side of the stage to the other. Houston, we have camp off.
• Apples can turn into explosives = big trajectory.
• Explosive boxes = big trajectory.

The MBR stage list does certain look as if it seems to lean towards Marth. But you can't forget that those are also great stages for other characters.

• One can argue that Falco has the favor at BF despite the platforms turning fsmashes into tippers. The platforms help Falco with his combos on the semi-floaty Marth and it's ridiculous once he starts getting platform tech chases in.
• FoD is also a great space animal stage. The platforms don't really hurt their game since they abuse platforms with drop through attacks.
• YS is a great stage for everyone, not just Marth. Certainly a tipper here is easily obtained, but other characters can kill Marth equally as fast with a well placed Knee/shine/etc.

If you wanna solve problems concerning stages, just ban everything except for FD, coz it's the only stage that counts



Go to Corneria against Jigs.

DK64 - This is true. I primarily added it as a 'neutral' just to have an odd number of stages for stage striking. However, to play Devil's Advocate, just because it's a CP against spacies, why does that mean it should be a CP stage? FoD is a counterpick against Falcon, should it be CP? (Blitz will say yes!)

PS - You have a fair point about some of those transformations being a little wacky. Also, yes, the walls do allow Fox infinites. However, it's pretty easy to see when they're coming up, in which case you can just stay away from the walls. That seems to be the main reason, and I don't personally think it's enough to just say it should be a CP.

Mute City - Yes, it is a good CP for Jiggs and Peach. The other top tiers have good CPs on some neutrals, though, so I don't see how this is a valid argument. It seems about as bad as Marth on YS to me. No ledges make it an interesting level, and I think give some lower tiers a better chance against most of the top tiers (floaties aside).

Corneria - All valid points, don't have much to say about this. I've seen Peach turnip camping from under the wing as well as spacies camping.

GG - I don't think anyone is trying to argue for this

My bad, if green greens and corneria get banned I'm maining sheik again. I guess I should explain my case to fogel.

You've got to argue your side then

 

[Linkshot]

I guess you have valid points for Green Greens ;-;

That sudden death was amazing, though.

Do you think we'd be able to replace them?

 

[Get@Will]

* Mute City

Without ledges, this overcentralizes the game into who has better edge guard capabilities, or who has the crappiest up B. Some character are simply not an option because they NEED to be able to grab the ledge in order to compete, and this includes Doc, Mario, Ganon, and Captain Falcon. Otherwise perfectly viable characters simply do not have the tools to compete, no matter the amount of adaptation or stage practice. Jigglypuff being too good on this stage is just the start. The cars are really what kills it. Being on a set pattern is hardly reason enoug for it to be fair. As scar has pointed out in other instances, the stage hazard here favors those that can actually control the air very well. Characters can only stay in the air so long, and it's not nearly long enough to stall out the cars if there's no platforms nearby, or at all, for alot of characters. Not to mention damage dealt by the cars is usually not in thanks to the opponent. It's free damage that required no thought and only serves to help a certain player.

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOOGfYEwK70 (Ken-Marth vs PC Chris-Falco)

The classic. PC Chris vs Ken at MLG match 5 (for all the marbles basically). People like to concentrate on the ending (i'll get to that) but I think 1:45 deserves special mention. Basically PC Chris gets needlessly juggled for 46% for simply trying to recover back to the stage, because he just happened to be knocked off as the cars are coming. Instead of an already stupid situation where no ledges make recovery that hard, Ken gets a free 46% because he managed to land a hit that knocked him off 1 minute and 40 seconds into the match. Had this happened at 1 minute and 50 seconds instead, PC Chris would have come out relatively unscathed. You shouldn't get double rewarded for doing something at one time, as opposed to another because of the stage. And then immediately afterwards during Ken's combo on PC Chris, Ken lands an uptilt, and before he can do anything a car hits him, allowing PC Chris to come back down and punish him. (Wobbles: there's a clip for Combo Breaker!) And then there's the ending. We all know it so it hardly needs explaining. PC Chris manages to hit Ken with an uptilt, and what could have been a game ending combo turns into PC getting juggled for 50% (To be fair, Ken got hit for 20% as well, but it doesn't make it any less ********). The best part is that because Ken got hit (read: made a mistake) he avoided the first part of the cars that may have damaged him as well.

 

[BC AL]

Edit: disregard

 

[Charlesz]

It looks like the doing of BCGAYL.

 

[Igcoris]

I've watched some of your videos, and I must say, you guys are legit. keep it up, Ottawa.