Phantom Scrolls: SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread [Discussing Sheik]

[JigglyZelda003]

Welcome all my sisters to the new Zelda Matchup thread for SSB for 3DS and Wii U.

Since i didn't see an active matchup thread started and some of the other boards already have one up i decided to start ours up.

I'm pretty sure matchups will be looked at differently on/when the Wii U version comes out due to people having better control so to speak, also depending on which non omega 3ds stages end up being legal on the 3ds for tournaments. So for this matchup thread i want to have two separate matchup discussions, one for 3DS and another for the Wii U version when it arrives.

Matchup Summary format for the main post will be as follows for now.


{Character Name}
Matchup ??:??
CP Stage:??
Ban Stage: ??
Summary:
Notable Quotes:

Character names will start in white during discussion and will change to either Red for bad, Yellow for even, and Blue for good matchups. Matchup numbers such as 50/50 70/30 will still be added, i just prefer to work on a three color scheme. If there are any questions, mispellings i missed, people unquoted please feel free to let me know and i will fix these things. I also want to thank everyone for whatever input they can give, every little bit helps us inch closer to mid tier.


Matchups


Little Mac
Matchup ??:??
CP Stage:??
Ban Stage: ??

Summary: Little Mac aka "The tiny punching fiend" has an almost perfect ground game. Equipped with fast and strong attacks and speed, super armor, a fast roll, and a KO punch Mac is a force to be reckoned with on the ground floor of the stage...but that is where his strong points end. For all of Macs powerful ground game his Achilles Heel is his lack of air game and abysmal recovery.

Mac will most likely focus on using a mixture of Jab, Dash attack, and Ftilt.

Jab >Infinity jab can wear down a shield fast and getting stuck in it can net Mac up to 30%, you don't want to get caught
in it. after the final hit there is a moment of vulnerability where you will want to capitalize on Mac with a dash attack or grab. Ftilt is fast and has powerful knock back and inches Mac forwards, be aware at higher percents or you could die from it. Close Dash attack will always put Mac behind you, so you want to be prepared to punish him regardless if he times it in front or behind you. All of these moves have a low cooldown time so you need to be prepared to take advantage at any moment. Learning to power shield and spotdoge correctly is good because it can help save your shield. If Mac grabs you just take the throw, they don't hurt nearly as much as his other moves, but this is where spotdoging or SHADing comes in handy to keep Mac guessing if he decided to approach with more throws.

Macs KO punch will instantly KO you if you are anywhere above roughly 15%. Mac may try to finish you quickly and have it saved at the beginning of a fresh stock he may try to finish an early percent. When the punch is ready you have to be more cautious, but all it takes is Mac to take 10% and he loses the punch.

On flat/omega levels camping the ledge is a good strategical approach. No Mac would dare rush the edge without at least a bit of caution. You want to make Mac approach you, because Zelda's poor approach options are about as abysmal as Macs recovery in this match up. From the ledge you can make use of Dins and Phantom to get Mac moving. Even if he doesn't take much damage along the way, you just want to avoid confrontation in the middle of the stage with him, where he is at his strongest.

If you happen to be down in percents and forced to approach Mac walk carefully and be ready to defend. Grabbing Mac at lower percents in the middle of the stage you may want to hurry him towards the ledge with Fthrow or Bthrow, but remember Mac also has no air game, so you can also mix in an Uthrow if your feeling bold to throw the Mac player off balance.

When combat has centered near the ledge, Bthrow from the ledge is your best option if you land a grab. Fthrow is also an option if you grabbed him facing the ledge. Bthrow at higher percents is sure to guarantee a KO, but you don't want to deal with Mac till higher percents. The objective is to get him off quick and fast. After he is tossed you have two prime options of Dair or Nairing his recovery. Dair is the stronger option, but if your not as proficient with Dair Nair is also an effective easier hitting method to keeping him away.

more on Nair

I have a decent strat for dealing with a Little Mac.
What you want to do is to grab Mac as he approaches, toss him off stage (preferably with the back-throw as it launches further) and follow up with a Nair when he tries to recover. This can be complicated, though due to the behaviour of the Nair that some of you might not be aware of. When Zelda does her Nair, if the opponent is caught in the middle of her, they will be sent in the opposite direction as you are facing. This means if you jump off-stage to follow up with Nair, and end up catching him in your little tornado spin, you’ll end up sending Mac back on-stage. To prevent this, you have two options.

1. Try and make sure you input the Nair quite some time before you encounter Mac in the air. This means that Mac will end up being hit by the edges of the hitbox (which should be around Zelda’s head) and will not be snet back, but forward instead and thus he’ll be sent even further out. This usually only takes one decent Nair to keep him off for good.

2. Before jumping off, turn so that your back is facing the blast zone. You then want to jump and catch Mac in the Nair full on. This is the riskier of the two, because if you don’t hit correctly, you can end up sending him back on stage. However, if you do get the full Nair off on him, you should send him out enough to get the red lightning indicating his death. This often works even at 50%-60%.

When Mac is offstage he will generally try to recover either with UpB if he's below and close to the ledge, or sideB as it covers distance better. Dair can stop both of these moves. If in the case Mac is sideBing back on the stage faster than you could jump to intercept him a RC/Pivot grab can be used to re-toss him off as necessary. This is your chance to be brave offstage because at worst Mac will just hit you back and at best you'll have an early stock lead.

In the event you are sent flying off the stage you always want to aim for the ledge. Mac moves too fast for you to reliably land on stage with Faroes. Even a non Faroes recovery it is always safer to go for the ledge because Mac doesn't really have a reliable option to stop you from landing on it.

Notable Quotes:

Little Mac huh? Well, let’s see...

Zelda being more of a grounded character, she doesn’t have very good odds going toe to toe against Little Mac. He’s faster than her in every way, and he’s got super armor all over the place. You definitely can’t afford to throw out any “useless” movements here, as he’ll most likely punish you very promptly for doing so.

There is still hope though! You have to abuse of the fact that he has an absolutely horrible, horrible recovery. So early gimping will be your best friend. One sweetspotted Dair offstage is pretty much the end of Little Mac at any % really:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWrbBw--YnA <= As evidenced here.

And why wouldn’t you pursue him off stage? There is very little risk involved as his aerials are all abysmal, and really the only notable dangers would be:

1. Counter, but that’s very risky for him, considering he still needs to claw his way back to the stage and will probably only attempt this if he’s recovering from high up.
2. Side B, which really he will only do when he’s close to the stage because it puts him in helpless after words. In fact, you can probably bait this and punish him back on stage since it has a small travel distance and has very noticeable landing lag. Unless of course he’s trying to sweetspot the ledge, but that sets him up for an open Dair gimp if he’s not careful.

So definitely when you get him off stage, DO NOT BE AFRAID TO TRY AND GIMP HIM! Zelda’s recovery has amazing distance, so you can go in pretty deep for the gimp if you have to. The earlier you end his stock the better as it also resets his KO Punch meter.

Speaking of his KO Punch, if it does get full don’t panic. All you need to do is smack him for 10% or more damage and he loses it! Just be aware to not use anything that’ll leave you totally open and try to only take action when he makes himself vulnerable. Things like missed Nayru’s or Smashes are really going to be your grave in this situation and you’re both going to probably be playing very carefully once the KO Punch is charged up, so you’re gonna have to be patient.

Or if you’re already high %, Little Mac might try to end your stock ASAP so he can use a clean KO Punch on your fresh stock. Note that from 0-15%ish (possibly more with Vectoring), KO Punch will not kill you, so if you’re on a fresh stock and Mac’s got KO Punch, use this opportunity to knock it out of him! And if he hits you with it early, at said 0-15%~ it’s WAY better to take the 35% damage than a stock, not to mention he’s gonna have to build it up from scratch again. So keep these things in mind.

Also KO Punch in the air is utterly, utterly useless. It has no range, does only 13% and absolutely no knockback. Mac in the air = Yes for you.

Probably the biggest annoyances are gonna be his incredible ground normals (naturally).

- Jab is gonna probably be his main damage builder. Speedy and painful. If you end up shielding up to the point of his rapid jab part, try to hold out until you see the final punch part; you should be able to sneak in a dash attack or grab.
- Ftilt inches him forwards and definitely has a semi decent amount of kill power and is fast, so if you somehow manage to live up to a higher % be on the look out for this one.
- Fsmash whiffs if Little Mac is right next to you, unless he uses the Uppercut version. The power and super armor goes without saying.
- Usmash does not hit behind him very well, if at all. HOWEVER it has a very painful sweetspot if you’re right in front of him (it’ll have fiery effect).
- Dsmash is ultra fast, but not quite as much KO power as his other two smashes. Just don’t get caught by this near the ledge.
- Dash Attack won’t kill you ‘till later %, and has a surprisingly low lag period so retaliation needs to be quick. If you’re by the ledge, Dash Attack will almost always put Little Mac BEHIND you so accommodate for that.

Speaking of the ledge, this is one of the better places for Zelda to be actually in a neutral setting. Because Little Mac has no projectiles, he is forced to approach Zelda with a lot of risks involved:

1. Zelda’s Back throw will most definitely end a stock if he’s remotely high %, if only because he won’t be able to recover. And if not, it’s a free Dair chance / Bait situation.
2. If he grabs you and throws you off stage, there is no risk of returning back as he can’t gimp (unless you count that Nair lock, but that’s gonna cost him a stock too) and he can’t kill you really with a throw unless you’re 180%+ with his Bthrow at the ledge or something. So really, you’re still alive! Just don’t EVER try to Farore’s Wind onto the stage. Always go for the ledge.
3. Probably the situation you need to be most worried about is if he starts to walk up to you. Ftilt and the like with his speed might kill you early... so be prepared to hold shield a bunch and react accordingly!

Hmm, that’s mostly what comes to mind. I hope that helps? I’m sure I missed a few things, so please add onto this if needed!

For Little Mac, there’s two things that have worked for me, mostly centered around slowing his momentum and getting some hits on him. First is uncharged phantoms. It’s a gimmick but it’ll provide a wall and breather room for you. If he hits phantom it also leaves him open for counter attacks. Still need to be careful of his super armor and counter, but if you notice him going that route, then start grabbing.

The second options is (credit goes to Kataefi or D3RK I forget who brought it up first) retreating pivot f-tilt and fsmash. This has really helped me against speedy characters lately. Besically you’re just dashing and retreating out of their range and smacking them with a backhanded ftilt or fsmash. It’s a simple strategy but effective, the range and speed on Zelda’s pivots are pretty good.

Depending on the Mac, he’ll continue to get hit or turn more defensive. If it’s the second option, bait approaches with Din’s and Charged Phantom (though be careful as both have crazy ending lag). Rinse & Repeat, the ftilts and fsmash quickly accumulate and soon he’ll be getting knocked off stage and ready for that sweet dair.

Marcina
Matchup ??:??
CP Stage:??
Ban Stage: ??

 

[Upke]

She loses to fast characters and better projectiles.

 

[Rickster]

That actually sounds accurate, lol (unfortunately). I don't think projectile camping will be as hard for Zelda to get by this time though. The Phantom has its shielding properties, and she still has Naryu's for reflecting anything that gets by.

Too bad none of that helps against speedy characters. I think the best way to fight them is to take advantage of Zelda's disjointed hitboxes and range. You MIGHT be able to catch them in one...

Oh, and try not to get put in the air. I find it very hard to get back down safely, especially with Nair's extra landing lag.

EDIT: Thanks for making this, by the way!
EDIT 2: Completely missed the vote request. I don't see why we shouldn't start now, since the other boards are starting. And I don't think it's wise to start the meta already behind somewhat.

 

[Upke]

For right now i want to take a vote to see who people want to start matchup discussion and probably start actual discussion soon

I don't see why we can't start MU discussion immediately. Some things are right, some things are wrong, and the meta will change whether or not the controls are ****ty. Also, it'll be fun to see what we thought in the beginning years from now.

Some of my initial thoughts, I like fighting against Kirby and Puff (and other similar floaties) a lot. Not very fast, no projectiles, and double hit FW starts connecting and killing around 80%. I do not like fighting Little Mac, Sonic, and Greninja, for starters. Little Mac's overshoot dash attack feels very hard to punish OoS. I'm going to keep trying though, because I think I'm just slow at these kinds of shield mechanics and hope to get it cleaner. If it comes to it, you can just try to read their action after the dash attack and punish that (which is 99% of the time roll back because casuals on For Glory, but in the future, I can see rolling, shielding, counter, and turnaround ftilt all being possible options out of his dash attack). The good thing about fighting Little Mac is that we have a spike, so we can go for really low percentage gimps. Fighting against Robin always feels pretty even, but I have little experience in any MU that isn't Little Mac because ****ing everyone plays that ****.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

well sure we can start now, I just wanted too see if collectively we had someone to focus on rather than a little bit of everything being tossed in at once to separate later.

when I said soon I didn't mean we had to wait long, I just wanted a couple of voices in here first lol

 

[GameAngel64]

The toughest matchups I've had were Sonic and some Sheiks. Greninja can be rough too, but I've had better luck with him, maybe because he is popular with the general audience. I've only fought one Bowser Jr. and he seemed extremely competent. I could not break through his strategy. It could just be a novelty thing, since I have never encountered a human player using him before (and haven't since). But I have a bad feeling about that matchup.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Peach is still a tough matchup for Zelda IMO - spaced aerials (especially Dairs) are really hard for her to deal with. Not to mention that Peach has, like, actual killing power now.

 

[Upke]

Bowser seems quite bad. Fire Breath is safe. I even tried to punish it with Farore's as soon as he started, but he could still shield in time (leading to an up-B punish of his own or side-B). His jabs have stupid good range and outprioritise dash attack. Up-B can punish attacks OoS that weren't even close to him. I did a fadeaway kick on shield, putting myself as far away as possible, and he still had time to roll over and punish. I didn't get to play him long, but it seems hard to edgeguard Bowser with kicks because his fair is pretty large. I ducked under him one time and got an upair kill, so I think it will boil down to mixups between upair, kick, and dair offstage, but I'll probably stick to on stage Phantom Slashes to force him low and go for dropzone spikes.

Also, not sure about what percents double hit FW works on him. I think it might work at 110% but the ****ty circle pad made me go slightly left, so I couldn't tell for sure.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

I've only fought a couple of people that seemed to know what they were doing and they used:
Yoshi, Shiek, Little Mac, Rosalina, Peach, Ike, Pit, WFT, Donkey Kong, Marth/Lucina, Mario.

I think Peach, Marth/Lucina, Pit, Ike and Donkey Kong were the only nuetral matches against her. Everyone else (as fast speedy characters) pretty much controls the flow of battle/the stage and thus has the advantage. Mario and Yoshi can combo and get in Zelda's face pretty well, Little Mac's dsmash is ridiculous and his super armor is annoying, WFT can camp better than Zelda as well as is faster and Shiek is just Shiek. Oh and Rosalina outranges Zelda pretty well, though admittedly in that match-up I probably should've used NL on Luma more.

ofc take my opinion with a grain of salt (def not pro or even good really). Just my casual-competitive observation.

 

[DoctorDub]

Are all specifically bad for a Zelda player (I think, anyway)
That being said, I don't really see any good match-ups for her right now, anyway...

 

[Rickster]

I'm mostly having problems with Little Mac, Peach, Marcina (Marth+Lucina),and Fox.

Little Mac just completely rushes down Zelda with speed, and landing safely is difficult.

Peach is just...idk. I fight an excellent Peach player almost every day, but I seem to struggle. Her float and combo game is especially annoying to deal with.

Marcina just completely out spaces Zelda IMO. I can't seem to get in, unless they make a mistake. Their air game is also far better than Zelda's, which makes landing aerials difficult. Not sure if angled ftilt can work against the SH fair approach...but its range certainly helps.

Fox is fast and comboey. Way faster than us. I've only fought one good one, (actually, its the only Smash 4 Fox I've fought), and it was an uphill battle. At least his fall speed makes dthrow/uthrow to nair more possible.

 

[kunimitsu877]

Welcome all my sisters to the new Zelda Matchup thread for SSB for 3DS and Wii U.

Since i didn't see an active matchup thread started and some of the other boards already have one up i decided to start ours up.

I'm pretty sure matchups will be looked at differently on/when the Wii U version comes out due to people having better control so to speak, also depending on which non omega 3ds stages end up being legal on the 3ds for tournaments. So for this matchup thread i want to have two separate matchup discussions, one for 3DS and another for the Wii U version when it arrives.

For right now i want to take a vote to see who people want to start matchup discussion and probably start actual discussion soon

is zelda much better in this game than she was in brawl or no

 

[BJN39]

is zelda much better in this game than she was in brawl or no

Short answer: better.

 

[kunimitsu877]

Short answer: better.

whats the long answer

 

[BJN39]

whats the long answer

"Mixed Reviews, but definitely the best iteration yet."

First, the mechanics of the ledge are glorious for Zelda's recovery, allowing her to get to the ledge whenver she'd like with FW. On top of that, FW has received countless buffs one of which ties into the new ledge mechanics. She can automatically grab the ledge from an airborne FW mid. travel. Which is great, along with the fact that the invisible travel gives Zelda COMPLETE safety when going at the ledge makes her near un-gimpable. (Combined with FW's long distance.) Along with that, the startup and travel periods are significantly faster, AND the reappear hit-box is gigantic, and includes incredible KO power. Did I mention it may be part of a guaranteed KO combo at only 80-100%?

Phantom itself is buff for solo Zelda in the fact it is an ENTIRE NEW MOVE for her. Along with some niche properties.

As for her A moves, many of them have received unfortunate changes, but not without positive changes of their own. Because this game's mechanics actually like, sort of help multi-hits like never before, Usmash, Fsmash, Jab, NAir, and Nayru's Love have almost never been more consistent in correctly connecting.

Ftilt is now easier to use. Faster to hit and end, and as much as I loved the upward angle from previous games, this new forward angle can at least help by getting them over the edge. The most the old angle could do is make them airborne. You could never DREAM of landing it at KO %.

Utlit, appears to actually contain some unique use outside of being a one-hit Usmash clone. (I should note though, Usmash isn't as powerful in some respects as Brawl, though, causing the loss of pretty much both Upward KO attacks.) Utilt actually can score second attacks or another Utilt, and it's crazy fast, making using it in general less painful.

Fsmash continues to be a very powerful and decent ranged smash attack, and Usmash and Dsmash both have received new IASAs, lessening their endlag.

DAir's sweet-spot has received the ability to connect on grounded opponents (Something unfortunately lacking in Brawl.) which can make it a way better threat. Not to mention the sweet-spot is larger, and it has less endlag (It appears) and very slightly less landing lag.

Her grab ACTUALLY CONNECTS AS FAST AS NORMAL GRABS. Instead of taking literally twice as long. Also, Dthrow contains some neat followup abilities, it appears.

These are some of the buffs that have helped Zelda be more viable in the Smash series. I don't believe I've pointed all of them out, but this should at least be able to show some of the new power she has. ~ It should be noted she isn't without some negative changes, of course. Usmash has less hit-box range, and less above coverage by only doing 8 hits. FAir and BAir have received more lag, raising the risk of using them further, and UAir has lost some KO power and a bit of range, and Din's is pretty much overall less useable.

 

[kunimitsu877]

"Mixed Reviews, but definitely the best iteration yet."

First, the mechanics of the ledge are glorious for Zelda's recovery, allowing her to get to the ledge whenver she'd like with FW. On top of that, FW has received countless buffs one of which ties into the new ledge mechanics. She can automatically grab the ledge from an airborne FW mid. travel. Which is great, along with the fact that the invisible travel gives Zelda COMPLETE safety when going at the ledge makes her near un-gimpable. (Combined with FW's long distance.) Along with that, the startup and travel periods are significantly faster, AND the reappear hit-box is gigantic, and includes incredible KO power. Did I mention it may be part of a guaranteed KO combo at only 80-100%?

Phantom itself is buff for solo Zelda in the fact it is an ENTIRE NEW MOVE for her. Along with some niche properties.

As for her A moves, many of them have received unfortunate changes, but not without positive changes of their own. Because this game's mechanics actually like, sort of help multi-hits like never before, Usmash, Fsmash, Jab, NAir, and Nayru's Love have almost never been more consistent in correctly connecting.

Ftilt is now easier to use. Faster to hit and end, and as much as I loved the upward angle from previous games, this new forward angle can at least help by getting them over the edge. The most the old angle could do is make them airborne. You could never DREAM of landing it at KO %.

Utlit, appears to actually contain some unique use outside of being a one-hit Usmash clone. (I should note though, Usmash isn't as powerful in some respects as Brawl, though, causing the loss of pretty much both Upward KO attacks.) Utilt actually can score second attacks or another Utilt, and it's crazy fast, making using it in general less painful.

Fsmash continues to be a very powerful and decent ranged smash attack, and Usmash and Dsmash both have received new IASAs, lessening their endlag.

DAir's sweet-spot has received the ability to connect on grounded opponents (Something unfortunately lacking in Brawl.) which can make it a way better threat. Not to mention the sweet-spot is larger, and it has less endlag (It appears) and very slightly less landing lag.

Her grab ACTUALLY CONNECTS AS FAST AS NORMAL GRABS. Instead of taking literally twice as long. Also, Dthrow contains some neat followup abilities, it appears.

These are some of the buffs that have helped Zelda be more viable in the Smash series. I don't believe I've pointed all of them out, but this should at least be able to show some of the new power she has. ~ It should be noted she isn't without some negative changes, of course. Usmash has less hit-box range, and less above coverage by only doing 8 hits. FAir and BAir have received more lag, raising the risk of using them further, and UAir has lost some KO power and a bit of range, and Din's is pretty much overall less useable.

cool

 

[Katty Shepherd]

[Phantom itself is buff for solo Zelda in the fact it is an ENTIRE NEW MOVE for her. Along with some niche properties.
QUOTE]
That's only what I've been saying for the past two months, thank you.
Zelda just won't be top tier unless she gets some major changes just to how her moves work, aka PM Zelda. But I like her being low tier, I like kicking but with someone every doubts. I hope she's not second to last but hey.
I can't say anything about Match-ups since I don't have the game (sobs) but can we quickly turn our vision to Ganondorf who was the only thing standing between us and the very bottom of the stack in Brawl?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Mac, Peach, Marcina, Sheik, Greninja seem to be common names so far with a few others popping in. I think we should focus on Mac first and follow through with the others. gonna do some edits after work.

 

[DoctorDub]

I have a decent strat for dealing with a Little Mac.

Basically you camp at one of the sides of the stage, but this means you need to fight with extreme caution, as you can be sent out the blast zones very quickly. Learn to power-shield and spot-dodge reliably. What you want to do is to grab Mac as he approaches, toss him off stage (preferably with the back-throw as it launches further) and follow up with a Nair when he tries to recover. This can be complicated, though due to the behaviour of the Nair that some of you might not be aware of. When Zelda does her Nair, if the opponent is caught in the middle of her, they will be sent in the opposite direction as you are facing. This means if you jump off-stage to follow up with Nair, and end up catching him in your little tornado spin, you'll end up sending Mac back on-stage. To prevent this, you have two options.

1. Try and make sure you input the Nair quite some time before you encounter Mac in the air. This means that Mac will end up being hit by the edges of the hitbox (which should be around Zelda's head) and will not be snet back, but forward instead and thus he'll be sent even further out. This usually only takes one decent Nair to keep him off for good.

2. Before jumping off, turn so that your back is facing the blast zone. You then want to jump and catch Mac in the Nair full on. This is the riskier of the two, because if you don't hit correctly, you can end up sending him back on stage. However, if you do get the full Nair off on him, you should send him out enough to get the red lightning indicating his death. This often works even at 50%-60%

You should also take note that sometimes the Mac will stand aside and play the waiting game with you. At this point, you just need to assault him with Din's fire and the Phantom. They will eventually come to you. It's your job to figure out how to grab them, though.

I hope that made sense.

TL;DR Back throw off-stage, follow up with Nair as appropriate.

 

[Upke]

Dair seems a lot more reliable than nair. It pretty much kills Mac at any % as long as you're not too close to the stage, even the sourspot.

 

[DoctorDub]

Dair seems a lot more reliable than nair. It pretty much kills Mac at any % as long as you're not too close to the stage, even the sourspot.

In my experience, Nair tends to actually hit more. It's probably just me needing to work on my Dair execution, but regardless, it's easier with a Nair.

 

[kunimitsu877]

zeldas new down b looks awesome but is it easy to combo or does it take practice to do so

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I have a decent strat for dealing with a Little Mac.

Basically you camp at one of the sides of the stage, but this means you need to fight with extreme caution, as you can be sent out the blast zones very quickly. Learn to power-shield and spot-dodge reliably. What you want to do is to grab Mac as he approaches, toss him off stage......

Does anyone know if we can reliably Dtilt some of his approach attempts since it combos into grab really easily? i know i've had some success in For Glory dtilting his dash attack but all the matches i had were a tad laggy. so i'd like to know if anyone else has tried this.

zeldas new down b looks awesome but is it easy to combo or does it take practice to do so

Phantom combos? eh i don't think so. i've had follow ups after phantom but nothing concrete into Phantom

 

[Upke]

In my experience, Nair tends to actually hit more. It's probably just me needing to work on my Dair execution, but regardless, it's easier with a Nair.

Yeah it sounds like a preference thing. Dair being more reliable but requiring more precision, and nair having an active hitbox but not always killing.

 

[DoctorDub]

Does anyone know if we can reliably Dtilt some of his approach attempts since it combos into grab really easily? i know i've had some success in For Glory dtilting his dash attack but all the matches i had were a tad laggy. so i'd like to know if anyone else has tried this.

I played at a local tourney today, so I tried this out and it *can* work, but it's honestly not the safest or most reliable thing to do. May need to test it out more, though.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

at this tourney was it only omega stages and like battlefield, or were any other stages available to pick?

 

[DoctorDub]

at this tourney was it only omega stages and like battlefield, or were any other stages available to pick?

It was on an Omega stage, yes.
Other stages were available, but I never checked on them.

 

[DoctorDub]

Something that may seem odd that I need help with is the Kirby match-up.
Every Kirby I've met has played extremely defensive. This is only a problem because a Kirby can punish Zelda from full stage due to his speed. If I try and pressure him to come to me with Din's, he can run up and grab me in all the time it takes for me to be able to release Din's and take control of my princess again. Not to mention all the rolling. Can someone help me out?

 

[CandyCakes]

I think that zelda is better against slow or medium speed characters

 

[Rickster]

In the Greninja MU, I think Naryu's completely cancels out Shadow Sneak. Someone spammed it against me yesterday, and Naryu's was working. My guess is that the invincibility frames protect Zelda during the attack.
I use it right when the shadow is under me.

I don't have much experience with Kirby. Sorry.

 

[ADAPT Chance]

I agree that speedy characters are not Zelda's friends.

Still trying to figure out what to do with her when someone like Fox is in my face 24/7.

 

[Kayeka]

As for the good news: Zelda still loves men with big hitboxes, such as Bowser and Charizard. With heavy weights possibly becoming a bit more popular this time around, this might just give our girl a bit of a break.

 

[Katty Shepherd]

As for the good news: Zelda still loves men with big hitboxes, such as Bowser and Charizard. With heavy weights possibly becoming a bit more popular this time around, this might just give our girl a bit of a break.

Who doesn't like men with big hotboxes? Bowser from what I've heard is up there in this game but given that landing a lightning kick on a guy his size is easy as slicing through butter that's been in the microwave for too long this is good news. Of course his heavy weight means he'll actually survive it so give and take but Zelda with the new and improved Farore's wind can survive longer too.

 

[CandyCakes]

From wut I've heard

Her good MCs
- ROB
- Megaman
- Duck Hunt
- Bowser
- King Dedede
- Ganondorf
- Captain falcon
- Samus
- Olimar

Her bad MCs
- Sheik
- Peach
- Greninja
- Kirby
- Meta Knight
- Marcina
- Game&Watch

That's wut I've heard

 

[JigglyZelda003]

idk about DH, his projectile game reminds me of snake grenade camping, with snake sized tilts in his smashes on olimars body. Its a frustrating character to deal with.

 

[DoctorDub]

Duck Hunt is quite a difficult character to deal with, yeah, but the Farore's Wind is an asset in that match-up. Make them paranoid of the teleport re-appearance and force them to fight physically. Most of their options are killed off at this point.

 

[FirebyrdXX]

Kirby is indeed annoying, especially with that small hitbox being harder to land your kicks on. If a Kirby is being defensive then you kind of need to do the walking approach. I kind of have to stick to tilts and fsmash for that little edge in range. Otherwise if they are floating towards me for there approach I find a hop to fast fall uair tends to work more than most other approaches.

G&W is just horrible for Zelda. Combine the bucket with his speed, aerials and small hit box and it just might be Zelda's worst match up. All I can manage is power shield to dtilt or utilt and that only gets you so far.

I would say a good MU for her is certainly against Samus. Between the projectiles and the character's floatiness it's plays to all of Zelda's strengths.

 

[CandyCakes]

she does pretty good against olimar too

 

[Rion]

Little Mac huh? Well, let's see...

Zelda being more of a grounded character, she doesn't have very good odds going toe to toe against Little Mac. He's faster than her in every way, and he's got super armor all over the place. You definitely can't afford to throw out any "useless" movements here, as he'll most likely punish you very promptly for doing so.

There is still hope though! You have to abuse of the fact that he has an absolutely horrible, horrible recovery. So early gimping will be your best friend. One sweetspotted Dair offstage is pretty much the end of Little Mac at any % really:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWrbBw--YnA <= As evidenced here.

And why wouldn't you pursue him off stage? There is very little risk involved as his aerials are all abysmal, and really the only notable dangers would be:

1. Counter, but that's very risky for him, considering he still needs to claw his way back to the stage and will probably only attempt this if he's recovering from high up.
2. Side B, which really he will only do when he's close to the stage because it puts him in helpless after words. In fact, you can probably bait this and punish him back on stage since it has a small travel distance and has very noticeable landing lag. Unless of course he's trying to sweetspot the ledge, but that sets him up for an open Dair gimp if he's not careful.

So definitely when you get him off stage, DO NOT BE AFRAID TO TRY AND GIMP HIM! Zelda's recovery has amazing distance, so you can go in pretty deep for the gimp if you have to. The earlier you end his stock the better as it also resets his KO Punch meter.

Speaking of his KO Punch, if it does get full don't panic. All you need to do is smack him for 10% or more damage and he loses it! Just be aware to not use anything that'll leave you totally open and try to only take action when he makes himself vulnerable. Things like missed Nayru's or Smashes are really going to be your grave in this situation and you're both going to probably be playing very carefully once the KO Punch is charged up, so you're gonna have to be patient.

Or if you're already high %, Little Mac might try to end your stock ASAP so he can use a clean KO Punch on your fresh stock. Note that from 0-15%ish (possibly more with Vectoring), KO Punch will not kill you, so if you're on a fresh stock and Mac's got KO Punch, use this opportunity to knock it out of him! And if he hits you with it early, at said 0-15%~ it's WAY better to take the 35% damage than a stock, not to mention he's gonna have to build it up from scratch again. So keep these things in mind.

Also KO Punch in the air is utterly, utterly useless. It has no range, does only 13% and absolutely no knockback. Mac in the air = Yes for you.

Probably the biggest annoyances are gonna be his incredible ground normals (naturally).

- Jab is gonna probably be his main damage builder. Speedy and painful. If you end up shielding up to the point of his rapid jab part, try to hold out until you see the final punch part; you should be able to sneak in a dash attack or grab.
- Ftilt inches him forwards and definitely has a semi decent amount of kill power and is fast, so if you somehow manage to live up to a higher % be on the look out for this one.
- Fsmash whiffs if Little Mac is right next to you, unless he uses the Uppercut version. The power and super armor goes without saying.
- Usmash does not hit behind him very well, if at all. HOWEVER it has a very painful sweetspot if you're right in front of him (it'll have fiery effect).
- Dsmash is ultra fast, but not quite as much KO power as his other two smashes. Just don't get caught by this near the ledge.
- Dash Attack won't kill you 'till later %, and has a surprisingly low lag period so retaliation needs to be quick. If you're by the ledge, Dash Attack will almost always put Little Mac BEHIND you so accommodate for that.

Speaking of the ledge, this is one of the better places for Zelda to be actually in a neutral setting. Because Little Mac has no projectiles, he is forced to approach Zelda with a lot of risks involved:

1. Zelda's Back throw will most definitely end a stock if he's remotely high %, if only because he won't be able to recover. And if not, it's a free Dair chance / Bait situation.
2. If he grabs you and throws you off stage, there is no risk of returning back as he can't gimp (unless you count that Nair lock, but that's gonna cost him a stock too) and he can't kill you really with a throw unless you're 180%+ with his Bthrow at the ledge or something. So really, you're still alive! Just don't EVER try to Farore's Wind onto the stage. Always go for the ledge.
3. Probably the situation you need to be most worried about is if he starts to walk up to you. Ftilt and the like with his speed might kill you early... so be prepared to hold shield a bunch and react accordingly!

Hmm, that's mostly what comes to mind. I hope that helps? I'm sure I missed a few things, so please add onto this if needed!

 

[Phenomiracle]

Little Mac MU is either an absolute nightmare or an absolute joy for Zelda, depending on how nooby the Little Mac is and how patient and precise you are with Zelda.

Ohhh, and your vid gave me goosebumps in places I didn't know could goosebump, Rion. Just...glorious.