Pivoting and Its Implications

[Big-Cat]

One gamechanging aspect that isn't discussed as much as I would like is pivoting. For Smash 4, pivoting's options were expanded on greatly. If you're not in the loop about what pivoting in Smash 4 is, check out this brief video on it.

As you can see, the gist of pivoting in this game means that the ground game and its options have expanded exponentially. Here are some potential possibilities for it. Mind you that this is speculation based off an old build and that we have not gotten to explore the potency of this technique.

1. Mid-range game. The midrange game will focus more on ground attacks as these have the least amount of commitment. Players will be able to run in and out while tossing out attacks at each other. The midrange game will come to resemble a match of Street Fighter in this aspect. You will be able to move in and out with just about any attack you so choose. With the sliding effect pivoting provides, you can use mind games with the range to scare the opponent to warp the perception of your attack's range by selectively timing when to strike during the slide.

Here are some gifs from Lozjam's thread to illustrate this.

2. Combos. Because pivoting now gives us so many options for attacks to run in with, we can use this for combo potenital. Combos do not have to be predominantly aerials, but also ground attacks as well. Here's a potential combo using pivoting. This is uses the Wii Fit Trainer's NAir as the launcher.

NAir > FTilt > FTilt > Sun Salutation

In this combo, the opponent is launched while WFT chases after them, pivoting with her FTilt and hitting with the back hitbox, her foot. The second one helps with stage carrying and then finally ending with Sun Salutation for the kill. Potential combos like these may also explain why a lot of aerials are now laggier if done close to the ground.

3. Defense. Oh boy, the dreaded word around these parts. Yeah, yeah. Onto the topic at hand. For OoS options, you now can dash or walk away from the opponent and then go on the defensive while being able to fight back at the same time. A good example of this is Marth. He can step back slightly and space hitting with the tipper. Of course, this is also a weakness in the case of Marth as the player attacking can predict if Marth will try to run away or not, thereby giving defensive game an additional layer of yomi.

This is just a broad spectrum of the possibilities. This is one aspect of the game I'm dieing to sink my teeth into for its sheer potential as a cornerstone mechanic for the series, much like the 8 Way Run of Soul Calibur and the Backdash Canceling of Tekken.

 

[Nixon Corral]

Huh. This actually is pretty interesting. Certainly it would seem that this opens up new spacing options. Very interested in seeing how this changes the game.

 

[Rᴏb]

Edit: Nevermind.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

There's already a topic for this, guys:

http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...-turndashing-a-new-movement-technique.361665/

Is there a rule where you make a new topic if it leaves the first page, or something? XD

 

[Aunt Jemima]

There's already a topic for this, guys:

http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...-turndashing-a-new-movement-technique.361665/

Is there a rule where you make a new topic if it leaves the first page, or something? XD

This thread is basically trying to discover potential combos that may be used with this technique. The other thread is a general discussion.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

This thread is basically trying to discover potential combos that may be used with this technique. The other thread is a general discussion.

I would hope that "general discussion" would include practical applications for the technique, including combos.

On this topic though, I think Sonic will get some great use out of this technique due to his crazy running speed. He could create pretty long combos by using that to link higher-knockback moves than other characters can.

 

[Johnknight1]

I think it'll be useful for mixups, approaches, and unexpected KO's.

 

[Empyrean]

This will indeed offer a lot of interesting possibilities, assuming it isn't removed from the final version of course (here's hoping it isn't). Although characters with a higher movement speed will probably benefit more than slower characters.

 

[pizzapie7]

I like the spacing opportunities with it. It could also end up being pretty good for mix ups in neutral. No idea about combo potential until we get our hands on the final build, but it couldn't hurt that either.

 

[κomıc]

I like how Mario grabs with one hand now....

 

[Hentai_Kittie]

I did these alot in brawl (the pivot grabs and smash attacks). Has this never been an "official" tactic in SSB before? Or does it just have less lag now?

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I did these alot in brawl (the pivot grabs and smash attacks). Has this never been an "official" tactic in SSB before? Or does it just have less lag now?

It's different from Brawl because you can actually slide while doing your attack in sm4sh.

There's already a topic for this, guys:

http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...-turndashing-a-new-movement-technique.361665/

Is there a rule where you make a new topic if it leaves the first page, or something? XD

That thread had become stagnant. Sometimes it's good to start anew.

 

[Big-Cat]

This will indeed offer a lot of interesting possibilities, assuming it isn't removed from the final version of course (here's hoping it isn't). Although characters with a higher movement speed will probably benefit more than slower characters.

Pivoting will benefit characters with ranged attacks. Whether or not speed will be a factor is unknown. Characters like Ike and Donkey Kong will benefit greatly from pivoting because of their range.

Also Boozer Drop Kick.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I did these alot in brawl (the pivot grabs and smash attacks). Has this never been an "official" tactic in SSB before? Or does it just have less lag now?

I don't think it was possible to pivot a tilt though? Also, you can slide now. Pivot grabs were a thing before though, that's for sure.

More to the point, Mega Man's side tilt is a buster shot while walking. He could potentially use this to instantly change movement direction without having to perform a full pivot.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Pivoting will benefit characters with ranged attacks.

Mega Man & Mii Gunner

 

[Big-Cat]

Mega Man & Mii Gunner

While projectiles may benefit from this, I was talking pokes.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

One gamechanging aspect that isn't discussed as much as I would like is pivoting. For Smash 4, pivoting's options were expanded on greatly. If you're not in the loop about what pivoting in Smash 4 is, check out this brief video on it.

As you can see, the gist of pivoting in this game means that the ground game and its options have expanded exponentially. Here are some potential possibilities for it. Mind you that this is speculation based off an old build and that we have not gotten to explore the potency of this technique.

1. Mid-range game. The midrange game will focus more on ground attacks as these have the least amount of commitment. Players will be able to run in and out while tossing out attacks at each other. The midrange game will come to resemble a match of Street Fighter in this aspect. You will be able to move in and out with just about any attack you so choose. With the sliding effect pivoting provides, you can use mind games with the range to scare the opponent to warp the perception of your attack's range by selectively timing when to strike during the slide.

2. Combos. Because pivoting now gives us so many options for attacks to run in with, we can use this for combo potenital. Combos do not have to be predominantly aerials, but also ground attacks as well. Here's a potential combo using pivoting. This is uses the Wii Fit Trainer's NAir as the launcher.

NAir > FTilt > FTilt > Sun Salutation

In this combo, the opponent is launched while WFT chases after them, pivoting with her FTilt and hitting with the back hitbox, her foot. The second one helps with stage carrying and then finally ending with Sun Salutation for the kill. Potential combos like these may also explain why a lot of aerials are now laggier if done close to the ground.

3. Defense. Oh boy, the dreaded word around these parts. Yeah, yeah. Onto the topic at hand. For OoS options, you now can dash or walk away from the opponent and then go on the defensive while being able to fight back at the same time. A good example of this is Marth. He can step back slightly and space hitting with the tipper. Of course, this is also a weakness in the case of Marth as the player attacking can predict if Marth will try to run away or not, thereby giving defensive game an additional layer of yomi.

This is just a broad spectrum of the possibilities. This is one aspect of the game I'm dieing to sink my teeth into for its sheer potential as a cornerstone mechanic for the series, much like the 8 Way Run of Soul Calibur and the Backdash Canceling of Tekken.

This mechanic has potential, especially in the neutral game.

I remember you made a thread about movement in smash 4 a while ago, do you think this is enough?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Sheik is gonna be even better with this.

 

[Big-Cat]

This mechanic has potential, especially in the neutral game.

I remember you made a thread about movement in smash 4 a while ago, do you think this is enough?

This is definitely enough.

 

[Lozjam]

It's different from Brawl because you can actually slide while doing your attack in sm4sh.

That thread had become stagnant. Sometimes it's good to start anew.

Agreed... I was the one that made that thread, it has become a place of hate and flames. So Moderators, please don't lock this thread.

One gamechanging aspect that isn't discussed as much as I would like is pivoting. For Smash 4, pivoting's options were expanded on greatly. If you're not in the loop about what pivoting in Smash 4 is, check out this brief video on it.

As you can see, the gist of pivoting in this game means that the ground game and its options have expanded exponentially. Here are some potential possibilities for it. Mind you that this is speculation based off an old build and that we have not gotten to explore the potency of this technique.

1. Mid-range game. The midrange game will focus more on ground attacks as these have the least amount of commitment. Players will be able to run in and out while tossing out attacks at each other. The midrange game will come to resemble a match of Street Fighter in this aspect. You will be able to move in and out with just about any attack you so choose. With the sliding effect pivoting provides, you can use mind games with the range to scare the opponent to warp the perception of your attack's range by selectively timing when to strike during the slide.

2. Combos. Because pivoting now gives us so many options for attacks to run in with, we can use this for combo potenital. Combos do not have to be predominantly aerials, but also ground attacks as well. Here's a potential combo using pivoting. This is uses the Wii Fit Trainer's NAir as the launcher.

NAir > FTilt > FTilt > Sun Salutation

In this combo, the opponent is launched while WFT chases after them, pivoting with her FTilt and hitting with the back hitbox, her foot. The second one helps with stage carrying and then finally ending with Sun Salutation for the kill. Potential combos like these may also explain why a lot of aerials are now laggier if done close to the ground.

3. Defense. Oh boy, the dreaded word around these parts. Yeah, yeah. Onto the topic at hand. For OoS options, you now can dash or walk away from the opponent and then go on the defensive while being able to fight back at the same time. A good example of this is Marth. He can step back slightly and space hitting with the tipper. Of course, this is also a weakness in the case of Marth as the player attacking can predict if Marth will try to run away or not, thereby giving defensive game an additional layer of yomi.

This is just a broad spectrum of the possibilities. This is one aspect of the game I'm dieing to sink my teeth into for its sheer potential as a cornerstone mechanic for the series, much like the 8 Way Run of Soul Calibur and the Backdash Canceling of Tekken.

I made gifs of pivot cancelling in the OP on my thread. I suggest you put them on this OP in spoilers for easy access.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Now that I've watched the video, this certainly looks like something that will be fairly useful. Then again, I haven't really played Smash competitively, so I might not be much help in discussing this.

 

[Leonyx]

Kind of a shame that this thread is getting pushed down for the more controversial ones. I'd like to bump it with a question: Does anyone know if you can get the pivot to attack to hit in the direction you're running in? I believe that video does not show that except for item throwing. Apologies if I'm mistaken; I can't check the video right now to confirm.

 

[Nintymat]

This is definitely enough.

Wouldn't go so far.

It's interesting and allows you to mix up your attacks, but it doesn't fundamentally change the way you move around/move in/move away.

It's a new technique at the end of a dash, but you still have to dash to use it. And dash's are really weak against a defensive mindset, especially since dash-dancing seems bad/limited in SSB4.

 

[topspin1617]

Kind of a shame that this thread is getting pushed down for the more controversial ones. I'd like to bump it with a question: Does anyone know if you can get the pivot to attack to hit in the direction you're running in? I believe that video does not show that except for item throwing. Apologies if I'm mistaken; I can't check the video right now to confirm.

I have no personal experience, but I asked this same question in another thread and someone said yes.

If true, I like the idea of being able to basically do a running forward tilt instead of a dash attack on some characters.

 

[topspin1617]

Wouldn't go so far.

It's interesting and allows you to mix up your attacks, but it doesn't fundamentally change the way you move around/move in/move away.

It's a new technique at the end of a dash, but you still have to dash to use it. And dash's are really weak against a defensive mindset, especially since dash-dancing seems bad/limited in SSB4.

I'm not sure I understand the issue here. "Dashes are weak against a defensive mindset"? Wouldn't the ability to mix up your options out of a dash go towards strengthening the dash altogether? I mean, it's not a wavedash, but isn't the core idea of having more options on a ground approach basically the same?

 

[Leonyx]

I have no personal experience, but I asked this same question in another thread and someone said yes.

If true, I like the idea of being able to basically do a running forward tilt instead of a dash attack on some characters.

I'm particularly excited to approach a player with a DK Ftilt, hehe.

 

[HeavyLobster]

This technique seems to be more limited than wavedashing as far as mobility is concerned. It seems that you can at least run away, then pivot to perform an attack while sliding away, and you might be able to do an attack while sliding forward by running forward, pivoting back, and then C-sticking forward. Unfortunately, dash dancing appears to be limited, so this will probably limit its versatility and mindgame potential. It'll still be incredibly useful, mind you, especially for characters like Marth, and has potential in other areas such as comboing. It does provide movement somewhat similar to wavedashing, though in a more limited form. This isn't the only instance of this, as tapping shield while running seems to produce a similar effect to crouch-cancelling a dash in Melee, though this is a bit slower too. Ultimately, I don't think Smash 4 will have movement options that feel quite as tight or are as versatile as Melee's, though they're sure to be leaps and bounds ahead of Brawl's.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's not always about movement options. Sometimes you're limited for a reason.

 

[Thunderfang747]

Honestly, in a lot of ways I could see this eliminating the need for the backwards wavedash. As it stands, a huge part of Melee is being just in the range to bait an approach from the opponent, wavedashing out, and punishing them for taking the bait. Now you will simply have the option to run out and punish them for taking the bait. I never thought about using this for combo setups, perhaps forward and back throws will have more to them than what it initially appears.

 

[alex6309]

Is it possible to pivot other attacks like jabs and up/down attacks or is it limited to just side attacks?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Honestly, in a lot of ways I could see this eliminating the need for the backwards wavedash. As it stands, a huge part of Melee is being just in the range to bait an approach from the opponent, wavedashing out, and punishing them for taking the bait. Now you will simply have the option to run out and punish them for taking the bait. I never thought about using this for combo setups, perhaps forward and back throws will have more to them than what it initially appears.

Well, I'm not certain about this, but some characters could probably use that to combo a high-knockback move into another tilt by chasing down the foe while they're still in hitstun and attacking with a pivot Utilt or high-angled FTilt.

Is it possible to pivot other attacks like jabs and up/down attacks or is it limited to just side attacks?

Yeah, you can pivot jab, UTilt, DTilt, USmash, and DSmash. In short, you can pivot any standard ground attack other than Dash Attack.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wish people would be more open to this, but I hate to say it bit Melee kinda warped what people think is good or bad in terms of how things can work here or in other games.

 

[Pazzo.]

Very interesting.. I can imagine that this can be used for defense as well as offense.

Defense - Someone chasing you on the ground? Pivot and F-Tilt.

Offense - Run towards the opponent, pivot, then F-Smash. This could open up spacing potentials like nothing else.

I wish people would be more open to this, but I hate to say it bit Melee kinda warped what people think is good or bad in terms of how things can work here or in other games.

Sir, that is brilliant. Instant sig. quote.

 

[Bladeviper]

Very interesting.. I can imagine that this can be used for defense as well as offense.

Defense - Someone chasing you on the ground? Pivot and F-Tilt.

Offense - Run towards the opponent, pivot, then F-Smash. This could open up spacing potentials like nothing else.

i think the mind games from pivot into smash will be fun to watch since you can charge smash attacks now with the c stick

 

[Thunderfang747]

Come to think of it, I wonder if this could be used as a pseudo-quick turn. Instead of running one direction and dealing with the slow turnaround characters have, perhaps you could pivot into a move with low cool-down like a jab for instance to get moving in the other direction quickly.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Come to think of it, I wonder if this could be used as a pseudo-quick turn. Instead of running one direction and dealing with the slow turnaround characters have, perhaps you could pivot into a move with low cool-down like a jab for instance to get moving in the other direction quickly.

Mega Man's FTilt for top tier!

 

[Big-Cat]

I wish people would be more open to this, but I hate to say it bit Melee kinda warped what people think is good or bad in terms of how things can work here or in other games.

Thank you. People are thinking in terms of Melee and Brawl. This is Smash 4, not those games.

 

[ferioku]

People need to stop riding off this game because it's different. I understand brawls case where it rewards to much defensive play, but that doesn't exactly make it a bad game does it? Are ya'll forgetting that smash 4 is also being worked on by Namco-Bandai or have you forgotten? Tripping is gone, the speed has definitely been increased even though its closer to brawl id still say it's 30-40% faster which is great! Combos and Hitsun is not missing, I don't care what anyone says, hit stun is very visible in this game. The only thing I think would need changing is reducing the landing lag and maybe a few more movement options other than this(Improved Dash Dancing)? Just imagine dash dancing with this new AT! I really really hope they don't remove this AT because it looks very useful IMHO Anyway, people shouldn't just assume what will happen when we have no clue of how this game will play out.

 

[Leonyx]

Out of curiousity, did anyone catch footage of pivoting in the 3DS tournament? I'm not asking anyone to actively search or anything, I'm mostly wondering.

We may get a chance to see some gameplay of it during the Gamescom tournament too.

 

[Xiaphas]

People need to stop riding off this game because it's different. I understand brawls case where it rewards to much defensive play, but that doesn't exactly make it a bad game does it? Are ya'll forgetting that smash 4 is also being worked on by Namco-Bandai or have you forgotten? Tripping is gone, the speed has definitely been increased even though its closer to brawl id still say it's 30-40% faster which is great! Combos and Hitsun is not missing, I don't care what anyone says, hit stun is very visible in this game. The only thing I think would need changing is reducing the landing lag and maybe a few more movement options other than this(Improved Dash Dancing)? Just imagine dash dancing with this new AT! I really really hope they don't remove this AT because it looks very useful IMHO Anyway, people shouldn't just assume what will happen when we have no clue of how this game will play out.

I've seen a post or 2 around here where people have mentioned that the landing lag is different from move to move and character to character. I would be very happy if choosing which aerial to use was a matter of risk vs reward. Like if you could send the opponent farther at the cost of greater landing lag or just deliver a small hit in a combo with little sending power but reduced lag. It's too early to say, but I'm HOPING this is where it's going.