Official (Read OP) DeDeDe Tour! Community MU Analysis

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Aura Spheres over 100%ish can hit someone before they even grab the ledge. It is a fairly easy move to hit someone during the 1 frame ledge grab vulnerability if properly timed.

Have you guys played any Lucarios that correctly do BReversals, Aura Sphere Charge to USmash, or hitting the 1 frame ledge grab vulnerability?

The more I think about it...I think D3 v. Lucario is 60:40 Lucario's favor.

Edit: I'll be on Anther's if any of you want to spar this MU out.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ooooo, the 1 frame ledgegrab vulnerability! Y'know it's funny, I actually hit people out of that with D3's 17f d-smash when I read it. Consistently.

Unless you give us specific examples aside from these random ass blurbs about gimmicks that Lucario has, kindly exit stage left. You're not going to change anybody's mind with that. At least some of the mains of other characters have had the courtesy to come in and expound on why D3 loses instead of just ticking off things they do universally.

Also, you're not gonna change anybody's mind about it with Wifi. So stop asking.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Kami~]

the assumptions are 2strong4me

 

[BugCatcherWill]

Ooooo, the 1 frame ledgegrab vulnerability! Y'know it's funny, I actually hit people out of that with D3's 17f d-smash when I read it. Consistently.

Unless you give us specific examples aside from these random *** blurbs about gimmicks that Lucario has, kindly exit stage left. You're not going to change anybody's mind with that. At least some of the mains of other characters have had the courtesy to come in and expound on why D3 loses instead of just ticking off things they do universally.

Also, you're not gonna change anybody's mind about it with Wifi. So stop asking.

Smooth Criminal

Hate to be that guy, but not everything is done on Wifi and assuming that people have only done things on Wifi so their argument is invalid is kind of cocky and self-centered.

But what do I know? I'm just some For Glory scribbity-scrub Lucario player that can only due tricks under the influence of Wifi

 

[Jdawg26]

I don't know guys, personally I have to give this one to Lucario. 55:45

While we have the potential to kill him early, the game slowly shifts to his favor as time goes on if that doesn't happen. DDD doesn't have any reliable kill setups at any point on most neutral stages. So while we can rack up damage fairly quickly, we'll eventually have to take risks/make reads to end the stock. Unfortunately, the point where our game plan starts to falter is where Lucario's starts to shine.

Lucario also has a fair amount of throw setups on DDD, and if you aren't used to DIing them properly you'll end up in a position to take even more damage. It's a matchup you have to experience a bit, but the amount of shield pressure that Lucario can put on wider characters is actually pretty crazy. FH Fair-> B-reversed aura sphere charge is pretty obnoxious to deal with as our oos options are subpar.

By the way, you can't just hold shield against him. His side-b can kill extremely early.

We have the tools to deal with a lot of his stuff, but DDD's tendency to be juggled and our lack of safe kill setups give Lucario a slight edge imo.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hate to be that guy, but not everything is done on Wifi and assuming that people have only done things on Wifi is kind of cocky and self-centered.

But what do I know? I'm just some For Glory scribbity-scrub Lucario player that can only due tricks under the influence of Wifi

Asking people to fight on Wifi to reinforce their points is kinda cocky and self-centered in and of itself, and a lot of the people around here agree that it's not a good metric to base everything off of. I'd appreciate more of an explanation as to why we would lose the MU to start with.

@ Jdawg26

I agree that you shouldn't be sitting in shield all the time, but why would you? You can outspace Lucario in neutral fairly well, more specifically with retreating ftilts and jabs.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Eeveecario]

1. Hitbox size, pretty easy to hit with AS, Bair, Force Palm grabs and smashes are easy to land on you. You're a Huge ball with a hammer.
2. Weight + Floaty mechanics = Easy juggling. We might have some trouble landing combos, but no problem this time since we love huge targets, A Huge beach ball with a hammer.
3. Either Hard-but-slow attacks or Fast-and-semi-unsafe-moves on block. Although not all of them acts like this, most of your moves can be predicted and properly punished if we try. A Huge beach ball with a hammer which weights a lot on his attacks.

But, I reckon that your jab and some aerial attacks can be dangerous if we don't respect them, and we'll have a hard time if we challange unproperly your attacks, but we have a lot of mixups to counter that.

In my conclusion, we have the advantage if we respect the Huge beach ball with a hammer which attacks weights a lot on him properly.

40:60

BTW, Kirby for King of Dreamland.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Asking people to fight on Wifi to reinforce their points is kinda cocky and self-centered in and of itself, and a lot of the people around here agree that it's not a good metric to base everything off of. I'd appreciate more of an explanation as to why we would lose the MU to start with.

@ Jdawg26

I agree that you shouldn't be sitting in shield all the time, but why would you? You can outspace Lucario in neutral fairly well, more specifically with retreating ftilts and jabs.

Smooth Criminal

No offense, but you do not seem willing to play us to see the MU in action.

By the by Kami~ is the best Lucario in the world right now on WiFI and off. He's happy to play as well.

I am willing to play even IRL to help analyze this matchup, the least you can do is meet me halfway? *shrug*

 

[Soul Train]

...see what I'm getting at? Scenarios like that won't always happen. We weren't speaking in absolutes pointing out the weakness of the move. It is fairly linear once it starts, telegraphed, and can be outdone in very specific ways (disjointed aerials, 9 frame nair, Inhale are just a few).

I will say this for ES: if you predict their trajectory, you can punish it. BUT good luck. If you go for the edgeguard, they can shoot over your head, and D3 isn't fast enough to run to the other end of the stage in time.

Heh although... I have this replay where I Inhaled the first Extremespeed, spat him over the edge, Inhaled another Extremespeed offstage...then Super Dedede Jump-spiked the third Extremespeed recovery attempt.

A rough dramatization:

 

[Nysyr]

Downsmash is literally the only move Lucario needs to respect from D3 off wifi; all of D3's other moves make Lucario's 2nd slowest downsmash in the game look like greased lightning.

Due to D3's poor airspeed, big hurtbox, bad 2nd jump, and high fall speed he can't get up from the ledge with us charging AS.

Pretty much all of D3's ledge guard options are trumped by the laser, and he's far too slow to punish Extremespeed in any meaningful way.

60:40 in Lucario's favour.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I can't give very many concrete thoughts on Lucario as I have very little (basically none) experience playing against him. So I'll abstain from the rating and just ramble on about a couple of things I've been thinking.

@ Nysyr is over-exaggerating Dedede's weaknesses in this match-up. Dedede has a fair number of moves just as fast as dsmash and that are (relatively speaking) safe when the Dedede spaces properly and respects his opponent's options. Nair, jab, Bair, retreating ftilts, I think will be seen a lot in this match.

From the small amount of time I've spent with Lucario in the lab, I find he's in a similar boat as Dedede in that many of his attacks have a lot of recovery frames, yet Lucario lacks a lot of the range Dedede has thanks to that hammer. I also think Lucario's movement speed is kind of mediocre. I might be completely wrong here, but it feels like Lucario is going to try to zone Dedede out with aerials, Aura Sphere, Force Palm, and weave his way in up close where I'm sure Lucario has the advantage.

On Extreme Speed: Dedede's main goal isn't necessarily going to be chasing Lucario off stage, just to watch as he flies away and recovers from its end lag as Dedede floats back onto stage. Dedede wants to pressure you into going where Dedede wants you to go. Ideally, we would make going for the ledge unsafe and force you to land on stage some how... Perhaps by lodging a gordo on the ledge? If Dedede maintains stage control and forces you to land on stage, that's a stock you just lost - Lucario's recovery on Extreme Speed is ridiculous, no matter how slow Dedede's attacks may seem. I also fail to see how we can't simply whack you out of it with a well place fair/bair, anyways.

The main issue I see coming into this match-up is that for all of Dedede's power, he can have a heck of a time killing. And my limited experience against Lucario tells me that this character just doesn't want to die. And once he has aura and rage...the match-up becomes super obnoxious.

I don't really know what to think. There's nothing that sticks out to me that forces this match-up into being a negative one for Dedede (which is a pleasant surprise). At the same time, if Lucario gets to rage, and I feel like he probably will, it's easily in his favor.

On a personal note, the very very few Lucario I've come across online usually just tried to lame me out...but it was FG and most of those Lucario players were pretty bad. And some of the stuff they were doing definitely were assisted by the lag, as I recall.

 

[Rysir]

I can't give very many concrete thoughts on Lucario as I have very little (basically none) experience playing against him. So I'll abstain from the rating and just ramble on about a couple of things I've been thinking.

@ Nysyr is over-exaggerating Dedede's weaknesses in this match-up. Dedede has a fair number of moves just as fast as dsmash and that are (relatively speaking) safe when the Dedede spaces properly and respects his opponent's options. Nair, jab, Bair, retreating ftilts, I think will be seen a lot in this match.

From the small amount of time I've spent with Lucario in the lab, I find he's in a similar boat as Dedede in that many of his attacks have a lot of recovery frames, yet Lucario lacks a lot of the range Dedede has thanks to that hammer. I also think Lucario's movement speed is kind of mediocre. I might be completely wrong here, but it feels like Lucario is going to try to zone Dedede out with aerials, Aura Sphere, Force Palm, and weave his way in up close where I'm sure Lucario has the advantage.

On Extreme Speed: Dedede's main goal isn't necessarily going to be chasing Lucario off stage, just to watch as he flies away and recovers from its end lag as Dedede floats back onto stage. Dedede wants to pressure you into going where Dedede wants you to go. Ideally, we would make going for the ledge unsafe and force you to land on stage some how... Perhaps by lodging a gordo on the ledge? If Dedede maintains stage control and forces you to land on stage, that's a stock you just lost - Lucario's recovery on Extreme Speed is ridiculous, no matter how slow Dedede's attacks may seem. I also fail to see how we can't simply whack you out of it with a well place fair/bair, anyways.

The main issue I see coming into this match-up is that for all of Dedede's power, he can have a heck of a time killing. And my limited experience against Lucario tells me that this character just doesn't want to die. And once he has aura and rage...the match-up becomes super obnoxious.

I don't really know what to think. There's nothing that sticks out to me that forces this match-up into being a negative one for Dedede (which is a pleasant surprise). At the same time, if Lucario gets to rage, and I feel like he probably will, it's easily in his favor.

On a personal note, the very very few Lucario I've come across online usually just tried to lame me out...but it was FG and most of those Lucario players were pretty bad. And some of the stuff they were doing definitely were assisted by the lag, as I recall.

D3 cant really obtain full stage control due to almost entirely because of aura sphere, and a lucario can smooth land the extreme speed that results in almost non existent end lag and D3 does not really have anything to prevent that as any attempt would just be too slow.

And most of lucario's moves out speed D3's moves and a fair number of D3's moves can be baited for a counter. Proper spacing and defensive maneuvers causes D3 to take an intense beating and all it takes is D3 getting caught in an aura sphere charge for it to be over for him.

Lucario just does not have too much trouble poking,harassing and heckling D3 due to him being a big santa bird shaped combo bag. Not a hopeless match up of course but difficult for D3.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

D3 cant really obtain full stage control due to almost entirely because of aura sphere, and a lucario can smooth land the extreme speed that results in almost non existent end lag and D3 does not really have anything to prevent that as any attempt would just be too slow.

And most of lucario's moves out speed D3's moves and a fair number of D3's moves can be baited for a counter. Proper spacing and defensive maneuvers causes D3 to take an intense beating and all it takes is D3 getting caught in an aura sphere charge for it to be over for him.

Lucario just does not have too much trouble poking,harassing and heckling D3 due to him being a big santa bird shaped combo bag. Not a hopeless match up of course but difficult for D3.

I dunno, I just have kind of a hard time believing it's that difficult for Dedede. I mean I would believe any match-up is difficult for him at this point because most of them are but in the case of Lucario...I feel like we have adequate enough tools to go about even with him. Lucario can't really kill us is the main problem I'm seeing.

What's this "smooth land" on ES you mentioned, though? Literally the first time I've heard of something like that. Would be beneficial to know in case I come across a Lucario in the future.

"Baited for a counter" to me is just saying...you out play the Dedede. I feel like any player worth their salt would adapt.

A lot of that is just general weaknesses that applies to Dedede, nothing really Lucario specific. And I don't necessarily think those are things he does better than the characters that actually do destroy Dedede. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but in this case seeing is believing and I'd like to see a breakdown of the match-up between two skilled players I guess.

EDIT: By that, I don't mean to be asking for the impossible. I'm genuinely curious if there's footage floating around of Dedede vs Lucario. But it's getting late over here as it is and I should probably be getting some sleep so I'll check back in here in the morning...

 

[Rysir]

I dunno, I just have kind of a hard time believing it's that difficult for Dedede. I mean I would believe any match-up is difficult for him at this point because most of them are but in the case of Lucario...I feel like we have adequate enough tools to go about even with him. Lucario can't really kill us is the main problem I'm seeing.

What's this "smooth land" on ES you mentioned, though? Literally the first time I've heard of something like that. Would be beneficial to know in case I come across a Lucario in the future.

"Baited for a counter" to me is just saying...you out play the Dedede. I feel like any player worth their salt would adapt.

A lot of that is just general weaknesses that applies to Dedede, nothing really Lucario specific. And I don't necessarily think those are things he does better than the characters that actually do destroy Dedede. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but in this case seeing is believing and I'd like to see a breakdown of the match-up between two skilled players I guess.

D3 has the ability to punish lucario but lucario out camps D3 very hard as he has nothing to make lucario move in and D3's anti air is not really the fastest thing around and being put in the air can end up painful too.

And smooth landing is when lucario lands while still having some distance left on extreme speed when reaching the stage where he lands on his feet and is able to act almost immediately which leaves it basically unpunishable when against anyone medium to slow speed not really a whole lot to it.

While Im no expert on D3, Im fairly certain that quite a bit his moveset can be Double teamed on reaction.

 

[Kami~]

I dunno, I just have kind of a hard time believing it's that difficult for Dedede. I mean I would believe any match-up is difficult for him at this point because most of them are but in the case of Lucario...I feel like we have adequate enough tools to go about even with him. Lucario can't really kill us is the main problem I'm seeing.

What's this "smooth land" on ES you mentioned, though? Literally the first time I've heard of something like that. Would be beneficial to know in case I come across a Lucario in the future.

"Baited for a counter" to me is just saying...you out play the Dedede. I feel like any player worth their salt would adapt.

A lot of that is just general weaknesses that applies to Dedede, nothing really Lucario specific. And I don't necessarily think those are things he does better than the characters that actually do destroy Dedede. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but in this case seeing is believing and I'd like to see a breakdown of the match-up between two skilled players I guess.

EDIT: By that, I don't mean to be asking for the impossible. I'm genuinely curious if there's footage floating around of Dedede vs Lucario. But it's getting late over here as it is and I should probably be getting some sleep so I'll check back in here in the morning...

there wont be a video of d3, he's not tourney viable

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

there wont be a video of d3, he's not tourney viable

Damn son. I know you placed well at CEO and everything, but calm down. Everyone here needs seriously chill out. That goes for you too @ Smooth Criminal . We all know WiFi ain't the best but the guy just wanted to help us get a basic understanding of what he was trying to talk about.

I personally don't know squat about this MU, but I'd like to learn about it. What I wouldn't like to learn is how immature we are. This is embarrassing. If you're actually discussing the MU, don't worry. I'm not talking to you.

And really @ Kami~ , I'm just a scrubby D3 main and I know you don't care, but I had a lot of respect for how you did at CEO. I lost a bit of that today.

Resume discussion please?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

What's worse, me asking for more of an explanation as to why exactly D3 loses the MU, or some random guy coming in saying we lose to a bag of tricks and that Wifi will prove his point? I'm sure you can understand my vexation if you agree with the latter.

That said, I have no complaints now that there's at least dialogue.

...however deprecating and egocentric it is.

Smooth Criminal

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Never mind that the search results here would prove Kami wrong anyways.

https://www.youtube.com/user/VideoGameBootCamp/search?query=King+Dedede+Smash+4

I originally didn't want to give my thoughts on the match-up with as little experience as I have, but I did so mainly because the thread was getting derailed and it's a character I'm interested in learning about because I see zero Lucario at my local tournament and he's not even that common online either.

@ Rysir the only problem I have with you mentioning his stuff can be countered on command, is that the Dedede player has to play smart and will start adapting to that. We could just as easily go out and bait your counter or air dodge, the way I see it. You're right in that it's certainly something to be aware of though.

 

[#KingM]

Everyone has their own opinion that they're entitled to. Let's grow up, move on from this argument, and have a discussion.

DDD has too much range on Lucario. He has too many options to come at Lucario with, something that Lucario doesn't really have in general. Aura isn't going to really help him the long run, as I have previously mentioned, and Lucario can't safely attack from above and make use of his aerials. No matter how many gimmicks Lucario has, DDD won't be taken out easily. Lucario is slightly floaty, which DDD is able to take advantage of in the air.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I really don't see Lucario beating DDD often. It's just not reasonable.

 

[Flawed]

Our matchup lists luigi as 60:40.

Lucario is not nearly as troublesome as luigi. It can't be 60:40 This matchup is as close to even as anything, and I'm not too sure who comes out slightly on top. ( im guessing Lucario).

I'd love to see one of you in action vs my Dedede on wifi, so I can see the tricks you use and also prove how wonderful extreme speed isn't.

 

[shrooby]

Listen to @ JimmyTheCaterpillar
Remain respectful and keep discussion meaningful, or warnings/infractions will be dealt.

And Jimmy and everyone else don't respond to Kami if he's just going to continue making flame/troll worthy posts. Just ignore/report him if he chooses to continue acting as such.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Our matchup lists luigi as 60:40.

Lucario is not nearly as troublesome as luigi. It can't be 60:40 This matchup is as close to even as anything, and I'm not too sure who comes out slightly on top. ( im guessing Lucario).

I'd love to see one of you in action vs my Dedede on wifi, so I can see the tricks you use and also prove how wonderful extreme speed isn't.

After some thinking, I think I might be willing to peg this match-up as a rough 50:50 until proven otherwise. With aura it turns into 55:45, Lucario's favor, or maybe 60:40, although I kinda doubt that. But it sounds like we don't really have much info besides anecdotal evidence from Wi-fi matches, and while that's still certainly useful knowledge you can get away with things online that wouldn't necessarily work offline.

 

[KnightofPizza]

I've been pretty much sitting back and reading off statements because I'm new, but I still think that Lucario has too few offstage options. He can... Extreme Speed? And... Double jump? He doesn't have too many offstage attacks that can even reach without stopping his momentum entirely. He'll be forced to use ES to either go for ledge or on the stage, both of which leaving him open to prediction. He could always use Force Palm, but it's an easy shield/air dodge into potential punish. DDD can always shoot an up-angled Gordo and stop him in his tracks, let alone his amazing aerials if Lucario is to go for stage, and if he goes for ledge, there's always a stage spike opportunity on most legal stages. That's just offstage, however, and most of that is probably wrong. Heck, I've never even entered a tournament before, I'm just some scrub from FG, these are just my speculations. Sorry for maybe wasting your time.

 

[Cook]

http://www.twitch.tv/stlsmash/b/674880399

I have a couple tourney sets against Lucario here. Around 1:20 mark is our set in winners' bracket that I lose, around 2:45 is losers' finals which I win.

Neither of us is spectacular, but we're pretty average tourney-going type players, so you can see a little bit how the matchup works. I know I had very little Lucario experience though, Idk if he had played Dedede much.

Overall it seemed even or slight advantage to Dedede to me. I think I messed up a lot trying to escape his juggles and I didn't predict/punish his roll ins as well as I could have. Also never could edgeguard him. Maybe there were things he could have been doing to me he didn't know about, though. I'd say 55:45 for Dedede.

 

[Rysir]

I dont see the point of asking us for match up input if you are just gonna ignore basically everything we say and say its in your favor just because.

 

[#KingM]

I dont see the point of asking us for match up input if you are just gonna ignore basically everything we say and say its in your favor just because.

Because you're saying a few gimmicks makes Lucario better, with bad examples to back it up. Plus, there's a voting system, so your opinion is still being accounted for. We're not ignoring what you say, we're just disagreeing. I don't see a point either, if you guys are just going to whine about it. Grow up, and have a god damn discussion. Alright?

If you really don't like it, you don't have to comment. Feel free to stop commenting at any time.

 

[Cook]

Damn, this is why I don't come to Smashboards, lol.

Also, why do people say "I/we" and "you" when talking about their characters and matchups? I've always thought that was weird, you are not Dedede, lol...

 

[Rysir]

Because you're saying a few gimmicks makes Lucario better, with bad examples to back it up. Plus, there's a voting system, so your opinion is still being accounted for. We're not ignoring what you say, we're just disagreeing. I don't see a point either, if you guys are just going to whine about it. Grow up, and have a god damn discussion. Alright?

If you really don't like it, you don't have to comment. Feel free to stop commenting at any time.

Chill with the uncalled for hostility, our "gimmicks" are techniques that are tested and confirmed both offline and on which are even proven in tournies so just disagreeing because you dont believe it is very ignorant. And for your information my blind friend, I was having a fair discussion unlike you but you could only tell if you could actually read.

 

[shrooby]

I don't see a point either, if you guys are just going to whine about it. Grow up, and have a god damn discussion. Alright?

If you really don't like it, you don't have to comment. Feel free to stop commenting at any time.

>

Remain respectful and keep discussion meaningful, or warnings/infractions will be dealt.

Drop it.

@ Rysir
Which stages do you think are good/poor for Lucario?
Both in general and for this MU in particular.
Do you generally prefer closer quarters like BF or more open stages?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Rysir does have a point, though. There's some things that have been brought up that are relevant to the match-up that ARE worth noting that nobody has really addressed yet. Imo, I think the biggest things to take away are...

• Aura Charge leads into hit confirms for Lucario and additionally covers Dedede's get up options from ledge. Besides that, Dedede's poor air movement and his weight makes it difficult to maneuver around the charge and places us in a disadvantageous position if we're forced to recover to the ledge.
• Lucario can hit farther and harder than Dedede once he has the big boost from Aura and Rage. If we don't kill Lucario early, whatever advantage we DID have quickly becomes a losing match-up.

As for Aura Sphere allowing Lucario to poke at Dedede from a distance...while that is true, it simply doesn't have the speed or power to be a real threat to Dedede until Lucario starts taking damage. The other point brought up, about baiting attacks and going for the counter...that's basically true of any counter character, is it not? Of course it's always something to be mindful of, but an adaptive player will use that against you if you have a tendency to try and bait for the counter, or go for it on reaction. It's dangerous at the same percents everything else of Lucario's is dangerous, but before then I really do not believe it's something to worry about, beyond the general respect you'd have to give to counter attacks.

Lucario's aerials can make it hard for Dedede to get in, especially if the Dedede player poorly spaces, but we generally DO outrange Lucario until he has his Aura built up. And I think Gordo pressure is more relevant for Lucario to deal with than it is for some of the other characters that Dedede might have a difficult time with.

I'll agree on one thing and that is that Lucario can turn the tides into his favor very quickly if left unchecked. It's at least 55:45 when considering rage Lucario, but before then I still think the 50:50 score is still sort of accurate, especially since Dedede does have the power to score those early kills on Lucario.

I think this is definitely a match-up where it'll come down to which player spaces, adapts, and conditions/reads better. Very very slight edge to Lucario, but nowhere near impossible for us.

EDIT: By the way, I'll be willing to take anyone up on the offer to do a few wi-fi friendlies. Probably not tonight, but sometime soon? I'm not the best Dedede player, but I do want to see this match first hand.

 

[Rysir]

>


Drop it.

@ Rysir
Which stages do you think are good/poor for Lucario?
Both in general and for this MU in particular.
Do you generally prefer closer quarters like BF or more open stages?

In general stages with high blastzones are favored such as Duckhunt, and stages such as FD and Smashville as well as battlefield work too as aura sphere charge shield drop grants more mobility through platforms than most of the cast.

For D3 himself Id say bigger stages such as FD and Duckhunt works highly in the favor for lucario since it causes more work for D3 to close distance should lucario retreat or if D3 gets knocked away. While lucario does not like platforms as much as other characters he can still utilize them which can work against D3.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

you are not Dedede, lol...

I can dream dammit!

Besides, it just saves time and everyone knows you're talking about. That's all.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I dont see the point of asking us for match up input if you are just gonna ignore basically everything we say and say its in your favor just because.

Aside from your Based Gawd Kami and the Infinity Wifi dude, ya'll have been sufficient in explaining things. I remain unconvinced, but I'm one D3 player in a throng of many. It doesn't matter what I think.

So, and with no snark implied, thank you for explaining stuff about the MU.

Maybe I'll just ask in the future.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hey Dedede mains!

Us over at the Charizard boards have been discussing the matchup of Charizard vs Dedede.

Come on over and tell us what you think.

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-king-dedede.409708/

vs

 

[KnightofPizza]

I think my final say will be 50-50. Both sides have good and bad points, and the entire matchup just seems even.

 

[Axel311]

This is one of the machups I know very little about. Lucario mains are so rare, I don't think I've ever played a good one.

Dedede has an ability to kill Lucario early thereby negating his aura somewhat. But Lucario can harass Dedede from afar and has superior mobility. And can kill early with aura if Dedede can't get the kill before lucario's aura gets too high. I'm not going to put a rating on this one since I have no good Lucario experience, but it seems like it'd be a very even matchup.

 

[shrooby]

And Lucario is done.
50:50
Given the quite different opinions given, I think this is a nice enough settlement. I'd personally say it's even at least based on everything I've read from here.

And now we move on to Shulk.
Get that Xenoblade music playing. Because there is basically no situation in the universe which isn't made better with Xenoblade music.


One important thing though...

Since this MU discussion will cut right into EVO (which I and a few regulars here will be attending), I've decided to extend it to next Tuesday the 21st. Hope nobody's too bothered by that.~

Anyway, discuss!

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Shulk is one of the rare few characters that outranges Dedede, and his frame data, while pretty average, does tend to beat us out.

That said...I feel like Shulk has trouble killing us, even with Smash. He can abuse the heck out of the Monado Arts in this match-up, giving himself speed that's difficult to beat, or a powerful combo game with buster, but I tend to get the feeling he has no reliable kill options. Every time I've been killed by a Shulk, it was usually as the result of a hard read or me not respecting their edge-guarding options.

His counter is pretty ridiculous, that's definitely something we have to respect. I've been hit at like 20% by his counter before, put up to 60 and then killed, simply because I flubbed my recovery. Learn how to angle your shield as well, his dsmash will chew through it and you will almost certainly get shield stabbed if you don't angle downward.

While Shulk can be difficult to deal with, I don't actually think the match-up is all that bad, despite how it looks on paper. In practice, as long as you respect his range and options he will have a hard time killing you. His recovery isn't that spectacular unless he's using Jump, but that just makes him easier to smack him away with a well placed fair.

IMO, 55:45 if only because his Monado Arts give him multiple ways to take advantage of our poor movement and size. Otherwise I would think it'd be 50:50 at the very least. Either way this is definitely a winnable match-up.

 

[KnightofPizza]

This matchup would definitely be in Dedede's favor if it weren't for those pesky Monando Arts. Monado Boy is, as Keith said, one of the few characters that outranges DDD, but doesn't have the best recovery in the world. His early game Speed art gives him plenty of combo potential, outspeeding and outranging D3 with his crazy aerial game. We do have what he doesn't in the Gordos, giving more options from far away, though Monado Boy has quite a few approaching options. Offstage, DDD does beat him, thanks to his amazing aerial options and Monando's bad recovery. DDD could always go in for a Bair or even a spike if he's sure enough. On stage, Monado Boy is pretty vulnerable to D3's DThrow combos, yet we are vulnerable to his combos due to our big size and slow movement.

Overall, I'd consider this matchup 55 - 45 , if only for those pesky, pesky Monando Arts.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

I don't have anyone in locals who plays Shulk as a main, so I'll refrain from rating. I've always had a trouble with his counter though. It is by far the longest lasting recoveries and due to my unfamiliarity with this matchup, constantly fall victim to mistiming. It's difficult to get used to timing/baiting with this counter when I experience so rarely and its definitely a certain cut above the rest.
On the other side of things, it is true he out-ranges us in the neutral. He only really possesses the juggle capabilities to make life really challenging when he sticks in speed monado. Then when he's in the heavy hittin' monado, he acts as a severe flub punisher. I'd usually play this matchup with various levels of success with gordo spam, opportune grabs and edge guard game, as his recovery isn't that great. Again, take this with a grain of salt.

Also punishing backslashin is some good eatin', boy. I tell ya what.

edit:
Will say he doesn't have much to deal with gordos besides regular hittin back or blockin' em. He's one of those characters that probably requires a more spammy approach.