Reverse Nayru's Momentum Canceling

[sasook]

My DI must seriously SUCK. I've tried this again but I seem to only live like 2 or 3% better than if I had used a DJ.

I think I'm definitely mistiming when I can bair from knockback - how can one tell when they need to bair? There are times I can do very early, and other times when I can't do it at all.

The early/late thing probably depends on what move hit you, at what percent.

To get that bair out ASAP, just mash the C-stick after you've been hit. DI is only when you're actually getting hit. So mashing that C-stick will only affect your DI if you mash it while being attacked - if you do it while you're flying, it has no bad effects.

 

[stealth3654]

I think I'm definitely mistiming when I can bair from knockback - how can one tell when they need to bair? There are times I can do very early, and other times when I can't do it at all.

What I usually do is just spam bair with the c - stick until Zelda actually uses it.

Edit: sasook beat me to the post.

 

[GodAtHand]

Diddy's b move does not reverse his momentum at all...

Anyone else look at the "love jump" b reverse combo yet? Just want to make sure I was doing it right and that i am not missing anything.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Did it seem to make it worse and give him the negative boost?

 

[lil cj]

This is pretty cool
Glad to see Zelda getting a new technique
This could be used as a form of recovery
if we can figure out how do this consistantly
and learn how to change directions

 

[Brinzy]

...........

...........................

...........................................



What the hell!?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Hedgedawg combining this and a love jump does stop Zeldas momentum but it sends her insanely high upwards... and she loses her second jump obviously. The momentum all goes up none of it is used to send you toward the stage again. I suppose it is useful for moves that would send you down at an odd angle... like Zeldas Dsmash if you are not prepared for it.

if you're not exaggerating and it actually does send zelda INSANELY high upwards, that might make it a better option for recovery.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I wanted this **** tested forever ago and as usual I was laughed at. Laughed at!!!!

 

[KayLo!]

I wanted this **** tested forever ago and as usual I was laughed at. Laughed at!!!!

Lol, you sound like a mad scientist. XD Sorry, it just made me laugh, hehe.

 

[Kataefi]

I do wonder what other b moves this could potentially work for... this makes recovering so much easier now... no more second jump wastes.

 

[Rykoshet]

Ike could totally do this if the move that would brake wasn't a straight shoot towards the death line that sent him into deadfall on the rare occasion he didnt touch the blast zone!

...

 

[-Mars-]

Oh and for those of you who are worried about accidentally using Dins and SDing.........when you're at a high enough percentage where you need to use this......you'll probably be dying anyways so you might as well attempt to pull this off.

I swear Zelda is extremely hard to keep alive. I can DI Godly with Sheik and Link but Zelda for some reason is difficult for me......i think it might have something to do with her being floaty. Maybe I only can DI well with fast fallers.

 

[GodAtHand]

Maybe Marsulas, in a recent match I was tanking with a Snake... We both got to about 200% before we died. I can't recover with Sheik for ballz.... HELP ME RECOVER WITH SHEIK!

 

[Big O]

I've been trying this out and while it does momentum cancel, it doesn't seem to be as effective as just double jumping. During my trials I lived about 2% longer from doing the regular double jump method. It takes too long for the momentum canceling to save most of the time. If you get hit from the far side of FD to the other side this is better than the regular method but even then it isn't much better. Saving your double jump is useful though.

 

[sniperworm]

I tried to do this again (getting hit by a Wario Fsmash at 140% on FD, like was mentioned earlier) and I was able to live longer than the momentum cancelling method (yeah, I did it, lol).

However, when I went back to testing against a Zelda Fsmash (the move I was using before), I still couldn't get increased survivability (training mode, 140%, hit all the way across FD, no DI). In fact, I was living longer with standard momentum cancelling than I was with the B-reversed neutralB (since I couldn't find a way to survive the Fsmash at 140% unless I used standard momentum cancelling).

This confuses me a lot because I'm not sure why this is. Especially since I always thought that Wario's Fsmash had more knockback than Zelda's (unless it just has a higher base knockback and lower growth, I don't know). Something fishy is going on...

Oh and for those of you who are worried about accidentally using Dins and SDing.........when you're at a high enough percentage where you need to use this......you'll probably be dying anyways so you might as well attempt to pull this off.

I swear Zelda is extremely hard to keep alive. I can DI Godly with Sheik and Link but Zelda for some reason is difficult for me......i think it might have something to do with her being floaty. Maybe I only can DI well with fast fallers.

Falling and fast falling speed effect your vertical knockback resistance.

You're probably used to DIing a little higher than normal since your other characters fall so quickly when you fastfall. Zelda is actually the opposite, you need to DI a little lower than normal since her fastfall doesn't make her fall very fast.

That's probably why you're having trouble surviving with Zelda.

 

[GodAtHand]

I think it might be dependent on the speed and over all knockback of the move. Something like Zelda's upsmash (not for testing but just for reference) Sends characters straight up incredibly fast, but then pretty much comes to a complete stop... This move might not work for something like that. But moves that tend to have continuous knockback whether very fast or partially slow this tech will help.

They way I have been thinking about this move...
Get hit by a move - Now DI well like you normal would. After the bair use your second jump... If during the second jump you still move backwards a little bit or more THIS move you just tested would be a good move to use this technique on. If by jumping you stop moving back completely or move forwards you would probably be better off doing that unless you are sent at an odd angle where you would want your second jump.

Maybe I was just never good at DI, but I do seem to be living longer with this tech...

 

[KayLo!]

My Zelda's fat. I have an easier time DI'ing with her than I do with Pika, although my Pika generally lives longer (since uair is so fast and Skull Bash is such a good momentum killer, I guess). It's weird. I live for****ing ever with Zelda in doubles -- unless I get gimped.... @.@

Anyways, on topic: I've been trying this in training mode, and it seems to help me live marginally longer.

It's kind of like Pika's Skull Bash, though, in that it's somewhat situational.... if your opponent is near the ledge, it's definitely not advised that you do this, because they'll just jump out and hit you during NL's cooldown lag.

Still working on getting replays for Ocho to record. It's hard to do it consistently.... I wish I had some kind of video editing program.... unless someone wants to volunteer to edit it for me? =X

 

[-Mars-]

Maybe Marsulas, in a recent match I was tanking with a Snake... We both got to about 200% before we died. I can't recover with Sheik for ballz.... HELP ME RECOVER WITH SHEIK!

*shrugs* I got some vids if you want to see how I recover. I like to usually recover low.....this is pretty safe against most characters in the game(as you will see in the vids against this marth). Some characters like MK, Kirby, Pit, DK, Tink, Sonic.........it isn't so safe because it sets you up easier for a gimp.

Vanish has those invincibility frames........so if you get a second of breathing room you can hit them unexpectedly if they try to hit you.

Most players don't have enough Sheik experience to just grab the ledge. If you grab the ledge you can read Sheiks recovery pretty easy and not having an attack animation at the end of Vanish doesn't help. If they don't grab the ledge......it's pretty simple to get back. The tether is incredibly fast and you can usually get back before your opponent if they try to hit you. In fact unless your at extremely high percents you can usually use tether immediately and be right back on the stage in a matter of seconds. Only time you really can't get the quick tether is moves that send you on a high trajectory or at high percents.

Against the better players.....you need to mix it up obviously as you are well aware. If I have a full needle charge.........sometimes i'll chance using a needle storm on my way back. Fair is also a nice, disjointed attack that is extremely fast with low end lag....making it a great mixup for opponents expecting you just to avoid them.

Another thing that I don't see Sheiks do.......b reversing an aerial neeedle cancel. If you do this you'll be turned around and have access to bair on your way back. Bair has really good range.........trades with things you wouldn't expect too like Marths fair and such. If you want to get all technical with it this is a great option when attempting to recover with Sheik.

I can usually always make it back when I am Sheik.....i just have trouble getting from the ledge back onto the stage lol. I wish I had a move like MK or Marths fair that I could always throw out from the ledge

Anyways here's a few vids if you feel like taking a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebbSnSuhPYE&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lggU5Dyu9G8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lggU5Dyu9G8&feature=related (I do the b reversal in this vid at 1:29)

*shrugs* hope that helps..................NOW RIOT TEACH ME HOW TO RECOVER WITH ZELDA!

Falling and fast falling speed effect your vertical knockback resistance.

You're probably used to DIing a little higher than normal since your other characters fall so quickly when you fastfall. Zelda is actually the opposite, you need to DI a little lower than normal since her fastfall doesn't make her fall very fast.

That's probably why you're having trouble surviving with Zelda.

Yea probably so.....I dunno I swear she comes out of hitstun slower than other characters<_<

 

[GodAtHand]

*shrugs* hope that helps..................NOW RIOT TEACH ME HOW TO RECOVER WITH ZELDA!

Thank you! I just need to stop being ********... That did help though!

Now one trick I have learned with Zelda is this... If you are familiar with Zelda's recovery this should work. Recover completely sideways. At such a height that even you are not sure whether you will sweetspot the ledge or land on the stage. If the Zelda main doesn't know where she will land, the opponent certainly does not either.

 

[phi1ny3]

I can see this doing cool stuff for lucario if it works out.
lol @ keeping lucario living for longer than he should.

 

[SuSa]

About how much longer on average does this make Zelda live compared to Sheik? Is it worth switching over when you can and are in kill %'s to live a while longer and play as Zelda? Or is Sheik simply better and not even worth switching to Zelda to live longer?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

About how much longer on average does this make Zelda live compared to Sheik? Is it worth switching over when you can and are in kill %'s to live a while longer and play as Zelda? Or is Sheik simply better and not even worth switching to Zelda to live longer?

probably depends on the matchup. it definitely doesn't look like this technique is groundbreakingly life-sustaining. It's just helpful.

if it was a matchup you should stay as sheik, I guess I wouldn't change that beacuse of this.

 

[sasook]

if it was were a matchup you should stay as sheik

Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.

On topic, some people have been that this technique isn't all that helpful, that anything you can survive with this, you can survive with a normal MC? Has this been confirmed?

 

[SuSa]

Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.

On topic, some people have been that this technique isn't all that helpful, that anything you can survive with this, you can survive with a normal MC? Has this been confirmed?

That could be true, but a normal MC requires you to jump. This saves your jump.

Also from the 3 times I've used it, it seems slightly better. It also makes recovering... a tad safer saving that jump.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.

On topic, some people have been that this technique isn't all that helpful, that anything you can survive with this, you can survive with a normal MC? Has this been confirmed?

correct use of the subjunctive mood. I do not disagree with the correction, I merely question the futility of an effort to correct the grammar of the internet.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I can see this doing cool stuff for lucario if it works out.
lol @ keeping lucario living for longer than he should.

that would make me hate Lucario even more than i already do

 

[Riickable]

Apparently Japan just discovered this technique and uploaded the video about an hour ago. Thanks to NinjaLink for posting it in the Zelda Chat. I asked him to post this on the Zelda boards, but apparently he doesn't like using the forums, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6V4HDXpFIo​

It's about 20 seconds into that video. Zelda bairs, and then Reverse Nayru's. This stops her in place and also makes her float backwards towards the stage. She keeps her jump, and also has her back to the stage. If someone approaches her in this position, it's much more likely she'll be able to bair Lightning Kick the character. This technique should make for much easier recoveries.

Only problem is if you fail the Reverse Nayrus, then you'll Accelerate, like the Zelda did in the second Ganon-jab in that video, fly off the stage and die. ( lol )

Thoughts?

My thoughts...

I'll test it and see how it works. It looks like a good mind****, seeing as you keep your jump and you can spike an edgeguarder if you're clever enough.

 

[Magik0722]

has this been tested for any other characters?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

has this been tested for any other characters?

so far i know only Fox and Zelda, idk anyone else who can do it.

 

[KayLo!]

Technically, any character can do it..... it's just using a B reversal to cancel momentum. The question is whether it's actually beneficial for each character and/or whether they have better momentum canceling options.

 

[Big O]

so far i know only Fox and Zelda, idk anyone else who can do it.

What special does Fox use to momentum cancel? As far as I know you can't B-reverse his reflector.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

FFF****

I was talking to a couple people about this concept at Genesis.

 

[SuSa]

This won me a match. I already love it because of that.

@KayLo!

Technically no. Fox's Shine stops all momentum and transfers some (all?) into vertical momentum. Zelda's Nayru's Love as strange momentum effects as is.. (see Love Jumping or the quick-fall using Nayru's straight from hitstun and the like) and as you can tell just by SH B'ing, it effects momentum.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah this has been quite good for me

It's not as good as bucket braking though - I take that back. It becomes useless at very high percents because the momentum cancelling effect is diminshed. But... this is seriously a godsend against a move that's ever so slightly staled, and even then doing it at very high percents is still a better choice than jumping.

 

[zeldspazz]

Do you have to do b-air before reverse NL or can you just go right into the NL. Cus if you can, then it could make it more effective.

 

[Elder Sister]

edit: i was wrong ignore this

doing it at very high percents is still a better choice than jumping.

why should you jump anyways?

 

[SinkingHigher]

Kat did you ever upload any of the vids we recorded?

 

[sasook]

Do you have to do b-air before reverse NL or can you just go right into the NL. Cus if you can, then it could make it more effective.

Bair first.

Here's how it goes:

B-reverse only: not a good idea at all

Bair only: good idea

Bair only, then B-reverse: best idea

 

[KayLo!]

@KayLo!

Technically no. Fox's Shine stops all momentum and transfers some (all?) into vertical momentum. Zelda's Nayru's Love as strange momentum effects as is.. (see Love Jumping or the quick-fall using Nayru's straight from hitstun and the like) and as you can tell just by SH B'ing, it effects momentum.

Lol, I had to read back, because I had no idea what you were referring to at first.

I explained myself poorly the first time: what I meant is that any character can b-reverse in an attempt to momentum cancel, but it may not be beneficial for all characters (if, for example, their momentum doesn't change or goes in an unfriendly direction). The "it's just using a B reversal to cancel momentum" part was referring to this particular Zelda-specific one.

It was weird wording on my part. My bad. Sometimes I just type assuming everyone auto-knows what I mean. x.x

 

[SuSa]

This may have helped the Diddy Boards, because they can immediately cancel their B. So B-reverse, cancel it, jump. It slightly stops momentum and doesn't take long at all.

So now I hate you guys, because the only player to take me to high %'s last stock, every..single..match... is a Diddy Kong player.

Go **** yourselves if he learns it and starts to live longer.