Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[I.T.P]

fixed and Perfect in my book.

KK, I accept that as well and it is a legitemate reason to prefer brawl in that area, is it not?

 

[Lumpy..]

Ok, let me rephrase that:


"According to the general consensus of the Competetive community known as SWF including it's stage discussion forum and Back Room(as far as I've understood from Mic_128's posts in the stage forum) Brawl has more competetively fit stages in both Neutral and CP categories, and they are also more varied than those of Melee in terms of design and features, making them better"

good job...
well thought out...
even though i only like playing on like 3 stages on brawl so far...
they may or may not be "better" than those of melee, depending on specific opinion...
haha i'm a prick... but you all love me, so who cares?

 

[Wiseguy]

I want to play Brawl. I'm going to be the Best in the world. No joke, I'm seriously striving for it. But I cannot deny my own feelings of dislike toward Brawl. Whn I see someone talking trash about melee, people who play melee, melee mechanics, or anything of that nature, it ticks me off a bit.

I dunno corey, there are kind of a lot of games out there to play. I can't really imagine why I would waste my time with one I didn't enjoy. (Or is it that you dislike all other games even more than Brawl?)

Oh well, to each their own I guess.

 

[Doodx]

guys as long as competition exists then its ok! there are still alot of techniques to be found in brawl and such
online might change, god i mean even wen melee was out evryone was comlayining that it sucked becus of the roster!
DID IT SUCK?????!
HELL NO!!!!! so be patient and things can change and brawl is not that bad, the competition is not lost its just less than melee so be happy with what u got cuz ppl w8ed a large *** time for it and this could be the last smash who knows

 

[Meta Ryu]

I personally find that random element (aka. Tripping in addition to some other things) very balancing. IT makes it so you can only take an advantage so far, making it fairer and often all that more exciting.

If you ask me, sakurai is a genius of the true spirit of fighting.

 

[Samochan]

If you ask me, sakurai is a genius of the true spirit of fighting.

The nerfing of C.falcon and friends and the inclusion of Metaknight and Olimar + other top characters disagree with you.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I personally find that random element (aka. Tripping in addition to some other things) very balancing. IT makes it so you can only take an advantage so far, making it fairer and often all that more exciting.

If you ask me, sakurai is a genius of the true spirit of fighting.

So if you were in a fistfight in real life, and about to land a knockout punch, but all of a sudden a "gust of wind from the hand of god" knocks you over and you consequently get your face smashed in... that'd be in the spirit of fighting? Randomness is the spirit of fighting???

To think I thought it was strength, agility, and skills all this time...

 

[Hypercat-Z]

I think Sakuray's thought is verrry right, yet idealistic.
The fact is that is in huMAN nature to be in competion and make ratings do determinate who is the best, since before the invention of the wheel. And many guys were disappointed by SSBB because they can't spread their superiority to the others anymore.
On the counterpart newbyes are encouraged to buy this game because they have not to feel the weight of competition. And being newbyes actually many more than hardcore smashers is in interest of Nintendo to make the game more friendly to them. So there is even an economic interest in the decision of Sakurai. Which is a good new for us, because it means Super Smash Bros. Brawl will be not the last game of the series. It would be a suicide to abandon a money machine like that. Not only people would buy any fourth episode without reserve, but videogames company would pay Nintendo a lot for having their characters in Super Smash BRos. IV.
Call me crazy if you think so, but I bet that half of the characters in the next episode will be third party from. I can even tell it's title: Super Smash Bros. 4 Everyone!

 

[LOL_Master]

if ever little thing was up to sakurai, he'd make brawl have 50 percent tripping occurences, all items very high always, all stages on random always and no fd

 

[Wiseguy]

if ever little thing was up to sakurai, he'd make brawl have 50 percent tripping occurences, all items very high always, all stages on random always and no fd

"ever little thing" WAS up to Sakurai. The result is exactly the way Brawl turned out. (ie: perfect.)

 

[The Executive]

"ever little thing" WAS up to Sakurai. The result is exactly the way Brawl turned out. (ie: perfect.)

Is this a joke? I will happily fall for it. I'll trip backwards down the stairwell of the Washington Monument (897 steps) for this to be a joke.

 

[Razorsaw]

So if you were in a fistfight in real life, and about to land a knockout punch, but all of a sudden a "gust of wind from the hand of god" knocks you over and you consequently get your face smashed in... that'd be in the spirit of fighting? Randomness is the spirit of fighting???

To think I thought it was strength, agility, and skills all this time...

Uh.

That sort of thing happens all the time in real life.

You need a better example.

 

[Wiseguy]

Is this a joke? I will happily fall for it. I'll trip backwards down the stairwell of the Washington Monument (897 steps) for this to be a joke.

No joke. I consider Brawl to be a perfect creation in every sense of the word. The stages, music and graphics are all flawless in my eyes. I wouldn't change a single thing about the gameplay as I've never cared about advanced tactics. Also: Captain Olimar.

(And yes, I even consider tripping to be hilarious and awesome. Sue me.)

 

[Samochan]

Uh.

That sort of thing happens all the time in real life.

You need a better example.

It is a good example, because in real life you trip if you yourself were careless or someone else made you trip, which are not random occurences. You do not trip cause god decided you should do so on a whim. If you suddenly trip to a stone, it was not random and uncontrollable event, cause the stone was there all the time. And even while you trip, you still have influence over whether you even fall down or not. You cannot foresee tripping on brawl at all and have no influence over it.

 

[The Executive]

No joke. I consider Brawl to be a perfect creation in every sense of the word. The stages, music and graphics are all flawless in my eyes. I wouldn't change a single thing about the gameplay as I've never cared about advanced tactics. Also: Captain Olimar.

(And yes, I even consider tripping to be hilarious and awesome. Sue me.)

I've posted this aleady somewhere, but my only major gripes with Brawl are tripping and lack of L-cancel. Other than that, it's a great game. I'd play way more but my friends have no Wi-Fi and gathering together in one place has become an issue as everyone works and/or has exams coming up in school.

On a side note, I've noticed a lot of my posts over the past few weeks are either prefaced or followed by yours and vice-versa. This is bizarre.

 

[Wiseguy]

On a side note, I've noticed a lot of my posts over the past few weeks are either prefaced or followed by yours and vice-versa. This is bizarre.

*Cue scary music*

 

[thumbswayup]

Is this a joke? I will happily fall for it. I'll trip backwards down the stairwell of the Washington Monument (897 steps) for this to be a joke.

LMFAO AHAHAHHAHA

 

[The Executive]

LMFAO AHAHAHHAHA

Yes, violence is very amusing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Stupid topics are stupid.
Sakurai intended for the game to be picked up by mainstream audience.
The fact that competitive players got jipped is only of consequence.
Same thing with melee and SSB.
The games never began as competitive, they were turned competitive by a minority of the buyers out there.

yes they removed wavedashing and what not but thats only because they wish to appeal to a larger audience, they aren't necessarily out to screw the competitive gamers. They want to make money and in that Brawl is a massive success.

 

[LOL_Master]

l0000000000000000000000lls, oh and wiseguy yur a dumass, sakurai had a team of people to develop the game...

 

[thumbswayup]

yes they removed wavedashing and what not but thats only because they wish to appeal to a larger audience, they aren't necessarily out to screw the competitive gamers. They want to make money and in that Brawl is a massive success.

Having wavedash or L cancel or any of the dozens of techniques in Brawl would have, IN NO WAY, affected the sales of the game. Melee was the best selling title on GC even with all the ATs. I don't mind wavedash and L-cancel being taken out, but dash dancing and edgehogging? You've got to be ****ing kidding me. And implementing TRIPPING in their stead?!?! It's clear he wanted to slaughter any element of competitiveness that would arise. Sakurai is a childish tyrant who should be fired for this. He knew perfectly well having these elements removed would not raise brawl sales. He removed them because of his own philosophies, which if you read the article where he states them you will see are completely contradictory.

 

[The Executive]

l0000000000000000000000lls, oh and wiseguy yur a dumass, sakurai had a team of people to develop the game...

Apply insult to self. Sakurai was the director. He was hired by Satoru Iwata himself and was given complete creative control over a series he was responsible for in the first place. His development team was/is exactly that: a development team. They did what Sakurai told them to do. They had little if any creative influence apart from modifying physics and disabling glitches. Sakurai is responsible for Brawl. Period.

 

[retro gamer 6]

ok some things need to be clarified. first let just say that i am on both sides of this issue. i wanted brawl to be more balanced and more enjoyable, but i also wanted it to contain some important aspects from melee. its true that brawl is not as fast as melee. many people wanted brawl to be melee 2.0, and i can't tell you enough how much that pissed me off!!! brawl is still a good game. its like people like a broken game. brawl is more balanced. characters are more balanced and useful (with the exception of a few). the only thing that i wish was never taken out in terms of advanced techniques was L-Cancel. we desperately needed that. but some complaining that wave dash is out, waveshine ois out and a bunch of other things. i don't know why most people like to have broken characters like fox and marth. its like they can only win with a broken character. brawl is balanced, many low tier characters are being used more often, and each character has a chance of winning, it just depends on the skill of the player. advanced techniques like wavedash and such i can live without. L-Cancel should have been kept at least. i don't know why people think is not good. its a great game with plenty of potential. we have to live with it. and if sakurai makes another smash bros. game, he probably won't change his mind, but we can hope, without the imbalanced of characters. so i hope brawl will be more competitive than melee, but its just an opinion. no game is perfect. so either live with it, or move on...

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

brawl is still a good game. its like people like a broken game. brawl is more balanced. characters are more balanced and useful (with the exception of a few). the only thing that i wish was never taken out in terms of advanced techniques was L-Cancel. we desperately needed that. but some complaining that wave dash is out, waveshine ois out and a bunch of other things. i don't know why most people like to have broken characters like fox and marth. its like they can only win with a broken character. brawl is balanced, many low tier characters are being used more often, and each character has a chance of winning, it just depends on the skill of the player..

Brawl is not more balanced...

I really don't see a whole lot of people complaining about wavedash, much less waveshine. We just wanted freedom of movement somehow. I def agree about the L-cancel, that's a mystery to me.

And seriously, you think I need a "broken" character to wreck in melee? You pick my character for me, I pride myself in playing well with every single one. Yes, I love fox, but M2 is my other main... As you said (about Brawl), it's the skill of the player that truly matters... idk why you'd only apply that to one game.

Brawl is only 'more balanced' because of randomness and slowness... and there's certainly useless characters and 'broken' characters. Marth is ridiculous still, Metaknight is waaaaay too good, Snake is crazy good... and anyone who can projectile spam well is one of the best characters as well.

So in short, I disagree with much of what you claim. Melee is not a broken game by any means, it's just that some characters are better than others (like in any game). It's nice that way... I can play as Pichu or Bowser against someone who's not as good as me and they actually have more of a chance than if I used Fox or Falco or Marth (or Mario or Mewtwo or Falcon). They might only get two or three stocked. And same goes for someone who's that much better than me.

Player skill FTW in Melee, my friend. That alone is the essence of the argument.

 

[Spartan1841]

I hate you. You annoy the hell out of me. SSBM was made to be a party game. It certainly is not a traditional fighter. But party games are games you play with people who are less than even casual video gamers. You play party games to have a good time, share silly laughs, and ultimately anyone wins.

That is not Competitive Melee by any stretch of the imagination. It doesn't have anything to do with "trying" to make it to be something else. It is what it is, a very competitive fighter with a ridiculous learning curve where the best players always win and people who have not put ridiculous amounts of time into the game can never compete.



The execution and precision in GG and SF are not to be compared with Melee. They're completely different, there are no quartercircles or semicircles or buffering moves with other moves... likewise GG and SF don't require the same kind of technical prowess as the **** that M2K does to show off between stocks, perfect moonwalk into a perfectly timed FF into a jump to another FF to a perfect waveland, so on and so forth.

They're different, one can argue that it's harder to perfect SF and GG "tech prowess" but as far as I know there aren't too many people who have perfected Smash's tech skill. Either Smash players suck or being perfect at it is hard.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't most SF and GG combos just waiting for your opening and performing a set, specific, unchanging button input?

By contrast, Darkrain combos to death from a hit more consistently than any other player I've seen. These combos are always different, they start with the first hit, but then after that he has to be creative, choose the right moves, follow the opponent's DI, and ultimately be perfect with timing and execution. These are skills untested in GG and SF...

There is no argument for why they are better or more competitive fighters, they're just traditional. They're different.



The drive to win the match no longer matters. You can try and try to get really good at Brawl but ultimately there is no learning curve and anyone can win by getting lucky. That, to me, is more frustrating than losing to someone who is actually way better than I am.



His vision is ignorant in my opinion. I'm not speaking for everyone here, but SSBM is a party game outside of the competitive scene. Before I knew about the scene, I used to win a lot and lose a lot, and either way I would laugh and have a good time. That wasn't enough for Sakurai, though.

He felt the need to betray my entire community. I don't think that Nintendo nor Brawl will sell any better because the game is not competitive. I don't see any good coming from it. There's no good reason.



Wow. Melodrama at its ugliest. Who are you?? What makes you think you're some kind of messenger of truth, half your message is "you won't change anyone's mind," and the other half is talking about the bitter pill of truth? What a hideous contradiction.



Basically, he doesn't want to reward people for practicing and learning the game. He made it shallow and boring. And no, there is a third option. Play Brawl for fun, play Melee to compete. stfu, "wallow in despair." Who are you?? You are the worst.

I could swear you're the most ******** person I've seen in smashboards. If you ask me you're extremely ignorant...

Anyway I'm glad brawl is not that competitive.

 

[thumbswayup]

Brawl is actually less balanced than Melee. Without L-cancel, slower characters such as ganon will be unusable. Also, metaknight is more broken than fox or sheik or marth was in melee. Did you know his up b can kill you at 0% very easily? It's an unbelievably amazing finisher and if the metaknight forward airs you a couple times off the edge followed by the up b, you are dead. Play a good metaknight and come back here to tell me what you think.

I love Melee, but I do not care that wavedash and L-cancel were removed. It's that they removed DASH DANCING AND EDGEHOGGING! Why would you removed dash dancing!?!? Oh, and edgehogging being gone wouldn't bother me so much IF YOU COULD ACTUALLY EGDE GUARD AFTER GRABBING THE LEDGE. BUT NO, YOU CANT, THERE IS A SECOND LAG WHERE YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING AFTER GRABBING THE LEDGE. It's like Sakurai saying "Suck my ****" to all the edge guarders. You know how frustrating it is when I get someone off the edge beneath the stage and I drop to grab the ledge preparing to fast fall from this to back air them for the kill and BEING FROZEN THERE FOR A SECOND, allowing them a plethora of time to return unharmed!

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

Brawl is not more balanced...

I really don't see a whole lot of people complaining about wavedash, much less waveshine. We just wanted freedom of movement somehow. I def agree about the L-cancel, that's a mystery to me.

And seriously, you think I need a "broken" character to wreck in melee? You pick my character for me, I pride myself in playing well with every single one. Yes, I love fox, but M2 is my other main... As you said (about Brawl), it's the skill of the player that truly matters... idk why you'd only apply that to one game.

Brawl is only 'more balanced' because of randomness and slowness... and there's certainly useless characters and 'broken' characters. Marth is ridiculous still, Metaknight is likely too good, Snake is crazy good... and anyone who can projectile spam well is one of the best characters as well.

So in short, I disagree with much of what you claim. Melee is not a broken game by any means, it's just that some characters are better than others (like in any game). It's nice that way... I can play as Pichu or Bowser against someone who's not as good as me and they actually have more of a chance than if I used Fox or Falco or Marth (or Mario or Mewtwo or Falcon). They might only get two or three stocked. And same goes for someone who's that much better than me.

Player skill FTW in Melee, my friend. That alone is the essence of the argument.

I respect what you said, like most posts.
Both games are unbalaced, but are unbalanced in different ways.

In Melee, combos and edgeguarding were so essential, that characters like fox, falco, and marth were chosen more often than others (of coarse, there are other reasons).

Brawl has become more dependant on weapon spamming (the biggy), increadably long range, and powerful smash attacks. Ike, Pit, Marth, Snake, and Toon Link are the most common in online matches for some of these reasons (again, there are more reasons).

Sure, it may be easier to beat a high tier character with a low tier character in Brawl, but its sense of 'balance' is still uncanning. Remember Sakurai's definition of 'competative' and 'balance'.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Remember Sakurai's definition of 'competative' and 'balance'.

I do. Randomness = 'competitive'

Remember also that his definition of fun is five year olds hitting inanimate objects in training mode.

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

I do. Randomness = 'competitive'

Remember also that his definition of fun is five year olds hitting inanimate objects in training mode.

We all love you sandbag, R.O.B. on the other hand.

 

[ADHD]

Go back to melee

No not a simple what to do, seriously lets repopulate that awesome game again.

 

[Lord Viper]

Go back to melee

No not a simple what to do, seriously lets repopulate that awesome game again.

You just want to get blasted, do you? You can't force people to go to a game they don't like or want to play a new game. <_<

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

Go back to melee

No not a simple what to do, seriously lets repopulate that awesome game again.

Sure, I may critisize Brawl for its 'balance', but I still love the game. I do the same with Melee. There is no plus for posts like these.

 

[retro gamer 6]

I could swear you're the most ******** person I've seen in smashboards. If you ask me you're extremely ignorant...

Anyway I'm glad brawl is not that competitive.

then you're the one who's retarted then.

 

[LOL_Master]

so...sakurai is a scrub like the majority of the people on the boards....nice

 

[Pink Reaper]

Go back to melee

No not a simple what to do, seriously lets repopulate that awesome game again.

I agree with this post.

 

[retro gamer 6]

Go back to melee

No not a simple what to do, seriously lets repopulate that awesome game again.

you really need to freaking stop! forget melee! its so unbalanced its not even funny! play brawl, or move on and don't play at all!!! GOD!!!

 

[ShadowLink84]

Having wavedash or L cancel or any of the dozens of techniques in Brawl would have, IN NO WAY, affected the sales of the game.

woulMelee was the best selling title on GC even with all the ATs. I don't mind wavedash and L-cancel being taken out, but dash dancing and edgehogging? You've got to be ****ing kidding me. And implementing TRIPPING in their stead?!?! It's clear he wanted to slaughter any element of competitiveness that would arise. Sakurai is a childish tyrant who should be fired for this. He knew perfectly well having these elements removed would not raise brawl sales. He removed them because of his own philosophies, which if you read the article where he states them you will see are completely contradictory.[/QUOTE]


Wavedashing is a result of physics abuse in the game. The physics changed hence no more wavedashing.
Tripping was implemented possibly because of DIddy Kong and other characters tripping attacks. It would defeat the purpose of a banana if they don't slip and fall. Adding in tripping adds random, something essential in party games, especially since the occurence is low at that.
Edgehogging and dash dancing are still in the game. Can't see where you aimed with that argument

If L canceling/wavedashing doesn't affect sales then that means NOTHING would affect sales because l canceling/wavedashing affects the actual gameplay. Sakurai is in tune with what mainstream gamers want. Simple.
They want a party game where everyone can have fun simple as that, competitive aspect was ignored and is always ignored so that sales can be boosted to maximum.

When he yanked out wavedashing tht was because it was a physics abuse and wasn't necessarily meant ot be in the game. L canceling? Not necssarily meant to be in the game so of course he would remove them. Has nothing to do with the competitive aspect. If he chose to leave it then he would have thought it didn't affect gameplay or sales. Simplee.
Anything that was in a previous game that was unplanned was to be removed since they weren't planned out.
Do you believe they wanted air tripping to be in the game?
Sonic's jump canceling?
DDD's infinite chain grab?
All of these affect gameplay and yet they were definitely not intended.
To say Sakurai doesn't want the game to be competitive because he removed unintentional things from the game, is ludicrous.
If I am making a game i want yu to play it as I made it. I don't want someone taking a glitch and then abusing it because they feel it makes the game more competitive. I didn't intend for it to be in the game and as such it goes out or I tune it so that it would be extremely difficult or impractical.

 

[RDK]

@Shadowlink:

L-cancelling was intentional in both SSB64 and SSBM. And when he says dash-dancing and edgehogging are gone, he means they were intentionally nerfed to the point of not being useful or viable anymore.

 

[Pink Reaper]

you really need to freaking stop! forget melee! its so unbalanced its not even funny! play brawl, or move on and don't play at all!!! GOD!!!

If I had a facepalm image, it would go right here.

 

[Cyrlous]

The problem I have with this mindset is that it has caused prolems for me as a non-competitive player as well. I have been thwarted on multiple occasions in the various single player modes by "tripping" and it really pisses me off. I have never before in my life played a game in which control of my character is just randomly ripped away for no apparent reason and I die through absolutely no fault of my own.

And, just to show you how ridiculous some people get in trying to defend this sort of ridiculous thing check out this link to a topic I made on the subject:

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42570910

This guy responds to my topic by saying that this is a party game, I shouldn't be trying to play competitively, so on and so forth. When I explain several times that I am in no way a competitive player he says that I am because I'm "trying to compete against the AI" and I need to stop that and just enjoy the party aspect. So, basically, don't "compete agains the AI", which means don't try to actually win the game.

What game has ever been created where you're not supposed to try to win? Honestly, this sort of mindset just boggles my mind.