Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[Jack Kieser]

Drephen has amazing technical skill, right? There are whole characters where the only tech skills even possible are universal ones like pivoting! Peach, Jiggs, Marth, Sheik, just to name a few.

Universal tech skill is still tech skill. Like I said in my post, I never said play with every tech known to man, I just said you had to play with at least a decent level of technicality. I think we can agree that Brawl is nowhere near as technically demanding as Melee. That's where, IMO, Brawl's strength lies: in just how different its measure of skill is. It isn't as demanding on the tech aspects of play, but it is demanding on how you think (I know most people probably disregard that quickly, but search your heart; you know it to be true).

 

[Samochan]

Drephen has amazing technical skill, right? There are whole characters where the only tech skills even possible are universal ones like pivoting! Peach, Jiggs, Marth, Sheik, just to name a few.

Let's see you try to play as fast, technical and precise as m2k with marth, amsah as sheik, cort/pc/m2k with peach and mango as jiggs. Then you'll see how techless they are. <_<

Unless it's brawl you're talking about. Also the second part on your post seems sarcasm, but I'm not certain. >_>


Edit: I seem to has misunderstood teh post. @_@ nevermind..

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Universal tech skill is still tech skill. Like I said in my post, I never said play with every tech known to man, I just said you had to play with at least a decent level of technicality. I think we can agree that Brawl is nowhere near as technically demanding as Melee. That's where, IMO, Brawl's strength lies: in just how different its measure of skill is. It isn't as demanding on the tech aspects of play, but it is demanding on how you think (I know most people probably disregard that quickly, but search your heart; you know it to be true).

Yeah, you could be technical with those characters, to an extent. But it is definitely not required, and not even encouraged.

Also, just because Brawl is only demanding on how you think, doesn't mean it is more demanding on how well you think.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yeah, you could be technical with those characters, to an extent. But it is definitely not required, and not even encouraged.

Also, just because Brawl is only demanding on how you think, doesn't mean it is more demanding on how well you think.

Oh, naturally. I agree entirely. We just have to get used to the fact that we have to focus more on the thought and less on the tech skill; we'll make mental ability worth more on our own, Brawl won't need to do it for us.

 

[VirtualVoid]

I thought I should finally write my opinion in this gigantic thread of mostly stupid nonsense.
I don't feel like reading 50 pages of repeating statements but I've seen a points that repeat s itself here countless times that I would like to write about:

Why does anyone with a slight spark of common sense would want a game to have a large focus on finger dexterity and muscle memory? I don't think everything should be super easy and automatic but why should anyone that wants to play at high level practice for an hour or more at training mode at learning basic stuff that is used by all characters such as L-cancelling or wavedashing? Wouldn't it be better if they use this time period to play humans and learn strategy, tactics and improve abilites to predict their opponent?

How does removing some of what we like to call Advanced Techs lowers a game competitive level? Infact, why do people judge the game's "Competitivity level"? It's either competitive or not, and Brawl is competitive simply because of the fact that you can be good at it and improve. Besides, its not like so called technical skill is 100% gone, go check the IC forums if you want stuff to put your training-mode hours into.

 

[Reyairia]

I thought I should finally write my opinion in this gigantic thread of mostly stupid nonsense.
I don't feel like reading 50 pages of repeating statements but I've seen a points that repeat s itself here countless times that I would like to write about:

Why does anyone with a slight spark of common sense would want a game to have a large focus on finger dexterity and muscle memory? I don't think everything should be super easy and automatic but why should anyone that wants to play at high level practice for an hour or more at training mode at learning basic stuff that is used by all characters such as L-cancelling or wavedashing? Wouldn't it be better if they use this time period to play humans and learn strategy, tactics and improve abilites to predict their opponent?

How does removing some of what we like to call Advanced Techs lowers a game competitive level? Infact, why do people judge the game's "Competitivity level"? It's either competitive or not, and Brawl is competitive simply because of the fact that you can be good at it and improve. Besides, its not like so called technical skill is 100% gone, go check the IC forums if you want stuff to put your training-mode hours into.

 

[Lixivium]

Why does anyone with a slight spark of common sense would want a game to have a large focus on finger dexterity and muscle memory? I don't think everything should be super easy and automatic but why should anyone that wants to play at high level practice for an hour or more at training mode at learning basic stuff that is used by all characters such as L-cancelling or wavedashing? Wouldn't it be better if they use this time period to play humans and learn strategy, tactics and improve abilites to predict their opponent?

The techniques of L-cancelling, wavedashing, etc. is not as important as WHAT THEY ALLOWED YOU TO DO: namely, use certain otherwise unsafe aerials safely, adding mobility, and using standing moves while moving. If Brawl made it so that aerials auto-cancelled upon landing no matter when you used them, or if Brawl let you use standing attacks out of a dash you wouldn't hear any of this talk.

 

[VirtualVoid]

Well, the thing is you had to master these techniques in order to even have a chance against someone who did. If these techniques never existed there wouldn't be a "need" to be able to attack straight away when you land or attack while dashing.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I thought I should finally write my opinion in this gigantic thread of mostly stupid nonsense.
I don't feel like reading 50 pages of repeating statements but I've seen a points that repeat s itself here countless times that I would like to write about:

Why does anyone with a slight spark of common sense would want a game to have a large focus on finger dexterity and muscle memory? I don't think everything should be super easy and automatic but why should anyone that wants to play at high level practice for an hour or more at training mode at learning basic stuff that is used by all characters such as L-cancelling or wavedashing? Wouldn't it be better if they use this time period to play humans and learn strategy, tactics and improve abilites to predict their opponent?

How does removing some of what we like to call Advanced Techs lowers a game competitive level? Infact, why do people judge the game's "Competitivity level"? It's either competitive or not, and Brawl is competitive simply because of the fact that you can be good at it and improve. Besides, its not like so called technical skill is 100% gone, go check the IC forums if you want stuff to put your training-mode hours into.

The problem, to me, isn't that they removed techs, persay. It's that the gamespeed is soooooo slow. If the speed was as fast as Melee but there were very few techs, that would've been great. That's kind of what i expected out of Brawl - same speed but easier to do.

That way, we'd still have our breakneck speed mindgames but there'd be a shallower learning curve for the newbs or the less dedicated. The problem is that they removed the techs but make up for it at all by speeding the general gameplay up. There's no "auto L-cancel" or any type of quick movement that allows for spacing. There's just lots of lag and no way around it. I really thought that if they removed the things that speed the game up, they'd either make them automatic or add speed elsewhere.

Now having said this, I personally prefer that ATs aren't automatic, you should have to earn it a bit. I liked that it was tough to learn to wavedash at first, hard to get down walljumping and L-cancelling, but once you got it, it was as easy as walking. It's a reward for your efforts. But, I would have been fine with the game if they kept the speed but left out the requisite techskillz.

It still baffles me that they removed the speed from the game. That's why it was so much fun.

*sigh*

 

[VirtualVoid]

I agree with you with 100% that the game feels "Too slow" but remember that we are spoiled by melee. If someone who doesn't play melee at all watches a pro match he usually can't even grasp what is going on, a fact that isn't true to most competitive fighting games.
Sure it was fun as hell at this high speed but I don't think slowing the game down destroyed it completely like some people say.

 

[Spiral]

His vision is ignorant in my opinion. I'm not speaking for everyone here, but SSBM is a party game outside of the competitive scene. Before I knew about the scene, I used to win a lot and lose a lot, and either way I would laugh and have a good time. That wasn't enough for Sakurai, though.

He felt the need to betray my entire community. I don't think that Nintendo nor Brawl will sell any better because the game is not competitive. I don't see any good coming from it. There's no good reason.

Unfortunately for you he's the designer and you are nobody. Fortunately for most casual players, he's the designer and you are nobody.

 

[RDK]

I thought I should finally write my opinion in this gigantic thread of mostly stupid nonsense.
I don't feel like reading 50 pages of repeating statements but I've seen a points that repeat s itself here countless times that I would like to write about:

Why does anyone with a slight spark of common sense would want a game to have a large focus on finger dexterity and muscle memory? I don't think everything should be super easy and automatic but why should anyone that wants to play at high level practice for an hour or more at training mode at learning basic stuff that is used by all characters such as L-cancelling or wavedashing? Wouldn't it be better if they use this time period to play humans and learn strategy, tactics and improve abilites to predict their opponent?

How does removing some of what we like to call Advanced Techs lowers a game competitive level? Infact, why do people judge the game's "Competitivity level"? It's either competitive or not, and Brawl is competitive simply because of the fact that you can be good at it and improve. Besides, its not like so called technical skill is 100% gone, go check the IC forums if you want stuff to put your training-mode hours into.

Unless you're some mechanical freak like Mew2King, you SHOULDN'T spend hours in training mode practicing infinite combos and counting frames of every single move. You should be out playing other competitive people, in tournaments. That's how you get good.

Yes, there should be SOME emphasis on technicality, but that's not all Smash has (or should have) to offer. As was posted by Yuna a few pages back, mindgames and how you handle your character factor in even more than technicality.

Also, it's becoming increasingly obvious that people don't actually look at any posts already made in this thread before posting nonsensical arguments themselves. Please take the time to read before you barge in here. What you're about to post has probably already been said and refuted a million times before.

 

[DarkKnight077]

Oh yes Brawl is so competitive that camping is for FTW. Way to go all the way back to 1995 Sakuari. Seriously why doesn't he add Turbo to the end of Brawl and suddenly call it broken? God **** I hate SF II speed at it's normal rate. That's why today the most competitive fighters have a nice fast or mid-fast pace to it. Except for VF 5 that hasn't changed much. But still we don't live in the Dark Ages of fighting games any more.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

If only there was a way to accelerate the game... I suppose a Wii emulator would be a ridiculous project.

 

[The Green Marth]

i find it very annoying that sakurai only thought about what HE wanted in the game. i think i speak for everyone when i say that 80% of smash players are competetive. Think about your consumors man!!

 

[Avalon262]

i find it very annoying that sakurai only thought about what HE wanted in the game. i think i speak for everyone when i say that 80% of smash players are competetive. Think about your consumors man!!

By looking at the sales of the game, Sakurai can easily say that he made the game that the consumers wanted. Its already broke records and its probably going to break more once the game gets released in Europe.

 

[6footninja]

I can agree for the most part. Going out on a limb was never a bad thing per se'

 

[6footninja]

By looking at the sales of the game, Sakurai can easily say that he made the game that the consumers wanted. Its already broke records and its probably going to break more once the game gets released in Europe.

yeah, if we look at the statistics, sure. But here it is all about the fanbase. You don't see nearly as many topics being concerned about outside of players who participate in forums such as this. Because the players who are not as active in Brawl are content with the slightest improvement, just knowing that "Brawl" is in the name makes it good enough. And im not saying there is anything wrong with that. Whatever floats your' boat. But here, SWF, a lot of us are so active in the game it is a huge hobby. So right here, the giant fan base Smash has is nice, but I would go as far as to say everyone here on SWF has a connection. Just knowing there are other Smash activists just like yourself forms that bond. So saying

By looking at the sales of the game, Sakurai can easily say that he made the game that the consumers wanted..

doesn't hold much for people here. THIS is the real community. Though it may not concern much of the casual Brawl players (casual meaning not active like most posters here), it means much more to us. The slightest thing to a casual, means much more to die-hard, true fans. And those die-hard players are right at home here on SWF. Everything counts.

 

[Scar]

i think i speak for everyone when i say that 80% of smash players are competetive.

This is one of the funniest things I've ever read. "82% of statistics are made up on the spot."

 

[Oskurito]

In Brawl, you can't be technical, which means we have a gameplay option less, and I don't like it.

That's scrubish imo. If you really wanted to play brawl at a competitive level, you'll play and learn what it takes to do that, regardless of how much tech skill you'll need.

 

[Firus]

Wow. Just wow, that's all I have to say.

I normally agree with the game not having to be competitive and all, but after reading that, I think I've converted.

The way Sakurai put it, it sounds like he thinks 90% of the Smash Bros community is five-year olds. Everyone having fun, everyone's equal if they put in effort...it's idiotic. And then I always thought the randomness was supposed to be a challenge, now it turns out it's so people that are absolutely awful can win versus someone great at the game.

I do agree with no leaderboards, I just think it screws online matches up a little too much. When you have ranks, then people go nuts with quitting and all, and if they put a penalty for leaving the match, then when the game lags out (which happens often) you are penalized. But I'm not about to remove it just because some little kid doesn't have their self-esteem lowered. Honestly, it may be better, that way they can learn that life isn't fair early on.

Thank you, Gimpyfish, for opening my eyes to this...it's changed my opinion completely.

 

[Yuna]

you sir are a newbie
the current trend of competitive fighting games is being playable at low technical levels and lets say it wasnt true, what does anything ITP said have anything to do with him being a scrub go read sirlin.net/ptw

What trend? Name one. FYI, being able to time attacks down to the 3 or less frames is technical skill so any game where timing is pivotal requires technical skill as well.

I.T.P. also clearly talked about not having to put down 100's of hours even to learn how to play the game properly even if the game is not "tech-based" as I said "If they didn't feel like doing it for Melee, they won't feel like doing it for Brawl just because it's now less technical", whereupon he replied with "I don't think you should have to put down 100's of hours to become good."

I thought I should finally write my opinion in this gigantic thread of mostly stupid nonsense.
I don't feel like reading 50 pages of repeating statements but I've seen a points that repeat s itself here countless times that I would like to write about:

Why does anyone with a slight spark of common sense would want a game to have a large focus on finger dexterity and muscle memory? I don't think everything should be super easy and automatic but why should anyone that wants to play at high level practice for an hour or more at training mode at learning basic stuff that is used by all characters such as L-cancelling or wavedashing? Wouldn't it be better if they use this time period to play humans and learn strategy, tactics and improve abilites to predict their opponent?

How does removing some of what we like to call Advanced Techs lowers a game competitive level? Infact, why do people judge the game's "Competitivity level"? It's either competitive or not, and Brawl is competitive simply because of the fact that you can be good at it and improve. Besides, its not like so called technical skill is 100% gone, go check the IC forums if you want stuff to put your training-mode hours into.

The importance of the ATs that are now gone is not in that they were "hard to do" (which they really weren't), the importance lay in what they allowed us to do. They gave us pivotal options which gave the game depth and layers. I could care less if they returned in more intuitive ways that anyone could do after just 5 minutes of practice... as long as they were there at all (which they aren't)!

Brawl is broken. Maybe not on a casual level but at the highest competitive level, from what we know of it so far, it's definitely broken. Camping is not only encouraged, it's one of the most effective strategies in the game. You can't approach unless you play as a select few characters, you can't shieldpressure... in a game without a High/Mid/Low-guessing game!

Heck, even if you land a hit, you can barely get anything off it! A little percentage, possibly. If you wanna knock someone out, you have to hit them with a knockout move. There's almost no way to combo into a KO-move, forcing you to switch to unsafe play to KO.

Because of the removal of a plethora of options, some overpowered moves are not virtually safe. Remember how Marth got owned for spamming Fsmash in Melee by shieldwavedashing into a jab, smash or grab? Not anymore. Space it and the only person who could possibly punish you for a shielded Fsmash is Marth himself, someone with a tether-grab (sans Lucas) or someone holding a fast projectile (Toon Link, Link or Peach who can throw them out of shield, for example).

Virtually any Smash with shield knockback is now also safe. Some characters can now spam moves for damage and KO all day without fearing getting punished while those who can't, well, they're just screwed.

Competitive Brawl consists of a slew of things competitive fighting communities frown upon.

From a competitive standpoint, Brawl lost a lot in the transistion. If you can't see that or don't care about it, then so be it. Don't tell us we're wrong for seeing it and caring about it. I've never told anyone they play Brawl the wrong way. And you shouldn't either.

Well, the thing is you had to master these techniques in order to even have a chance against someone who did. If these techniques never existed there wouldn't be a "need" to be able to attack straight away when you land or attack while dashing.

If these techniques never existed, Melee would be a low-level game which wouldn't have spawned a competitive scene even half as big as it is today. Melee became popular in competitive gaming because of its depth.

 

[Rhubarbo]

You know, you could say that this game was made easier to appeal to more people. Any money though it would have sold just the same if it retained the exact same gameplay as Melee (maybe minus wavedashing).

 

[RDK]

You know, you could say that this game was made easier to appeal to more people. Any money though it would have sold just the same if it retained the exact same gameplay as Melee (maybe minus wavedashing).

This is true, and it's what we've been saying all along. Melee accomplished satisfying both sides of the fence, and was easily the most popular and most purchased game on the NGC.

But Sakurai would rather force his ridiculous ideals onto Smash fans the world over than make competitives happy. It saddens me to think that Brawl could have had so much potential without Sakurai turning it into Mario Party.

What's next, Sakurai? Are you going to release a gameplay patch so that during matches we have to hit a dice block and land an even number before we can land a hit on an opponent? At least then some mentally challenged kid won't slit his wrists afted being KO'd, because then it would ALL be up to chance.

 

[Firus]

This is true, and it's what we've been saying all along. Melee accomplished satisfying both sides of the fence, and was easily the most popular and most purchased game on the NGC.

But Sakurai would rather force his ridiculous ideals onto Smash fans the world over than make competitives happy. It saddens me to think that Brawl could have had so much potential without Sakurai turning into Mario Party.

What's next, Sakurai? Are you going to release a gameplay patch so that during matches we have to hit a dice block and land an even number before we can land a hit on an opponent? At least then some mentally challenged kid won't slit his wrists afted being KO'd, because then it would ALL be up to chance.

That last paragraph made me laugh...(because I agree, and it was sort of a funny way of putting it)

But this is really serious, if they keep taking this another step, and then another step, and they keep going, you're right, we'll end up with a Mario Party. I guess at least we can be thankful that Sakurai didn't decide to make auto-handicaps on WiFi. The day that comes, it will be a sad day.

 

[Yuna]

You know, you could say that this game was made easier to appeal to more people. Any money though it would have sold just the same if it retained the exact same gameplay as Melee (maybe minus wavedashing).

Show me a single person who's ever said:
"Melee has wavedashing! I can't play it now!" or who's reconsidered buying the game because he found out about wavedashing.

Show me a single person who's said "My enjoyment of this game is now over because of wavedashing."

If you're not a competitive player and don't like wavedashing, here's a suggestion: Simply don't play players who use it.

 

[Wiseguy]

If you're not a competitive player and don't like wavedashing, here's a suggestion: Simply don't play players who use it.

That's pretty easy to do these days.

 

[Lumpy..]

The excessive number of new people is directly proportional to the nuisance level that the board has reached and is currently rising above. Their lack of ability, want to become better, and inexperience while still trying to come off as high in skill are frustrating at least. If I had the choice, I would make it so that there is a very very FAR back-room where people of under 100 and 2008 join dates posts must go. After they make 100 posts and a mod allows them, they can join normal discussion. They need to brood in a pit of their peers and understand just how n00bish they are. High schools don't share rooms with elementary and neither should we.


Counter point...

um... how do i argue when i agree?
i suck at this whole "debating" thing...
so... i'm gonna pretend i'm one of the noobs you're talking about... ready?

SonicPro_6969_FTW: you suck! you should have a back room... where you have to stay by yourself till you get a bazzillion posts!!!!

p.s. you need glitches to win!!!!

haha you like the noob name i came up with?

Shut Up Lumpy, No One Likes You And You Suck At Smash Because You Lost To A Kirby!!!!

Flame Flame Flame Flame Flame Flame

Spoiler

Stop Posting in all of my subscribed threads -_-

haha nice...
how do you think i find threads?
i just look at what you're subscribed to and post nonsense till the thread is closed... haha

 

[iMichael]

Whoa this thread still exist...ppl are STILL talking about this?

 

[Lumpy..]

no...
nerd...

 

[Corigames]

um... how do i argue when i agree?

I know, I was proud of it too.

 

[Lord Knight]

In the end, I'll still beat you.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Whoa this thread still exist...ppl are STILL talking about this?

We can't let go of the anger.

I keep trying to leave the boards for good but find myself coming back a week later with a new bout of anger.

I can't trust Nintendo's gamemaking philosophy anymore, hopefully Blizzard will come through with Starcraft II for me (SC is my 2nd addiction... well first now). They at least have said they're keeping true to the core ideas of Starcraft... including SPEED.

I need my competitive fix... else it's back the crack again. See what you've done Sakurai? You saved the children from "oh noes! I lost! my fragile emotions are in turmoil!!" but you've driven me to become a crackhead. Good ****ing job you ****ing douchebag, I hope you're proud of your failure.

*******.

 

[Corigames]

We can't let go of the anger.

I keep trying to leave the boards for good but find myself coming back a week later with a new bout of anger.

Trust me when I say it is better to get everything off your chest before it even gets on it (if you know what I mean). I would much rather have a group of people dislike me than towalk around, constantly angry becuase I didn't say exactly how I feel. Screw formality. Screw political correctness. Screw mental filters. Say what you want, about what you want no matter if it makes sense or not! Do it! It's better to constantly be venting anger than snapping on some poor soul who didn't see it coming.

I hate emotion n00bs.

 

[Avalon262]

Whoa this thread still exist...ppl are STILL talking about this?

sad ain't it? Everytime I come to this board the two threads I see on the top are this and Scar's . You would think people would stop complaining already as it accomplishes nothing when the game is already out and there's nothing people can do about it.

This board is a complete joke right now.

 

[thumbswayup]

Maybe you should actually go into the character discussion threads and learn more about your main .

The intelligent people aren't complaining, it's more like we're trying to discuss WHY something like this happened. We also are trying to inform the less knowledgable people why we are upset and why brawl should be dropped as a competitive game right now. Brawl CAN be played competitively, it just SHOULDN'T be.

Also, I agree that these threads have become kind of silly, but that's what happens on forums I guess.

 

[Siamese Lizard]

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I think people took it out of context. Anything vs another is competitive but people think he means 0.

 

[Yuna]

sad ain't it? Everytime I come to this board the two threads I see on the top are this and Scar's . You would think people would stop complaining already as it accomplishes nothing when the game is already out and there's nothing people can do about it.

This board is a complete joke right now.

No, it's been a joke ever since the first influx och new Smashers came in when Brawl was first announced.

 

[thumbswayup]

LMAO

10char

 

[illboyzeus]

The only reason this game is being played competitively is because its new and all the former nublets who couldn't **** with melee think they have a chance(which is humorous). The better smasher will win most of the time, I don't even own this game and played about 10 hours tops and can outright **** people who live and die by it. So the whole it's a new beginning thing is really not applied, the best smashers will still dominate. I don't think it's competitive because practice is not rewarded, like I said I rarely play and beat people who play alot. This shouldn't happen. I was around the third best smasher in MN in melee though so that could have something to do with it. But I was technical as hell so it was kinda depressing to have to convert to this watered down ****. But right now it is competitive, cuz people are in competition, and what is an easier way to take money than from optimistic noobs?