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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
- Status
Wiseguy
Smash Champion
Yep. Just finished posting it EVERYTHERE on the internets. Those folks on the Starcraft, Halo and quilting forums had no clue what I was talking about.So... are you parading this quote around the internet or something?
Good mindgames. And they say Smash isn't competitive. They just didn't know it was competitive with other games
Thingy Person
Smash Journeyman
That's a very dangerous thing to say, but if that's true, then it's an awesome pwn to the face.
Then I suppose, in the distant future, this next generation will invite the current brawl-haters and see just how un-competitive Brawl is.
MajinSweet
Smash Journeyman
For anyone "doubting" the quote or wants to see where it comes from...
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=516492&topic=42348055&page=1
Read through there, and I'm not "parading it" I just hope it can actually get through to all these people that think they know everything there is to Brawl, and think that "anyone can win!" and its not competitive. In the smash community it seems you have to be somebody for anyone to listen.
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=516492&topic=42348055&page=1
Read through there, and I'm not "parading it" I just hope it can actually get through to all these people that think they know everything there is to Brawl, and think that "anyone can win!" and its not competitive. In the smash community it seems you have to be somebody for anyone to listen.
Eh, trust me, it's not just smash where that statement is applicable.
MajinSweet
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, good point.
Thingy Person
Smash Journeyman
Hey, stop that cynicism! I hate it! You're a mean ***got! I'm gonna go to yout house and kick your ***! I hate you! w00t to fee!
Wiseguy
Smash Champion
MajinSweet is my hero. Thank you, sir, for bringing Azen's wisdom to the masses.
goateeguy
Smash Ace
then our opinions are a bit different. we disagree because i think that the more skilled a player can become in a game the more depth there is and the more worthwhile (yes, it is a "friggin VIDEOGAME", i'm not overlooking that) it is to try and learn it. you see the small changes they made in non-competitive play and believe those are fun and worth the loss of much of the competitiveness. fair enough, i can see we need to agree to disagree.
I'm with Azen on this. Brawl will do just fine. I've played campers, and I've used camping as a strategy, and the camping never lasts forever, the closer you get to your opponent, the closer they are to falling off the edge, it's all about spacing and removing your opponents options. That's what Brawl is.
This may sound like dumb logic, but I've played some good campers and none of them were that hard to beat. Boring? eh, maybe a tad but it wasn't that bad. Eventually the camping strategy will be revoked.
This may sound like dumb logic, but I've played some good campers and none of them were that hard to beat. Boring? eh, maybe a tad but it wasn't that bad. Eventually the camping strategy will be revoked.
LouisLeGros
Smash Journeyman
after reading azen's quote I direct you to Scar's first post, it pretty much covers it all...
and did Pink Reaper say I was plagiarized :O
omg, I just may have plagiarized , he even used my very same chess to tic-tac-toe comparison!
I've never heard it being called Noughts and Crosses though...
and did Pink Reaper say I was plagiarized :O
omg, I just may have plagiarized , he even used my very same chess to tic-tac-toe comparison!
I've never heard it being called Noughts and Crosses though...
mio
Smash Ace
Well, it's great that you defined the word "competitive", but if words need to be clearly defined and distinct, then I need some definitions. What exactly is meant by a "better" player? How do we decide who "should've" won and would should not have won?
If the loss is a result of tripping, items, stages, or any other unavoidable outside influences that affect the outcome of the game, then yeah, we might be able to say that someone should've won. But within the terms of actual gameplay, moves, mechanics and physics, I think that this game has even more balance than Melee. Speaking of which, I think that is what you mean to say. The competitive level of a game doesn't determine how fair it is to skilled players. ****, beer pong can be a highly competitive game. It's actually the BALANCE (and variety) of a game determines the severity/complexity/intensity/skill level at which a person must compete in order to defeat his opponent.
Perhaps Brawl is not as fast-paced and INTENSE, but that does not mean that it can't be just as competitive. It has only been out for a few months, and we're all still learning how to play. We can't expect to master the ability to win over noobs within that period of time. It took years to develop the level of competition that people play at in Melee. If we give it time, I'm sure Brawl will show us that same level of fighting, just in a different way than we're used to.
Finkledoodoo
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2008
- Messages
- 31
Thx for the cred,
I write under my brother's name because when I'm at work, the IT people monitor the net. As for my reply to "those who should win, will win," I just didn't like that phrase so I didn't give it a proper answer. I understand the random properties of brawl pretty well. In fact, I play mk just to exploit these properties. I presume sakurai knew that foxtrotting would be unvoidable and that dash dancing smashes still work, so I'm guessing that he put tripping in to discourage those as advance techniques. I still use them, but, only at low percents. (or when I know it's safe, like right after a trip) Also, when my opponent is at high percent, I try to stay close and short hop around until my opponent trips resulting in a dair or d-smash. It doesn't always work, but knowlege of the game will always put me in the advantage. I practice footstool jumping regularly and gimp my brother regularly with it. It's not like it's easy, he went semi-pro in melee, so he's not bad. Understanding the game is part of tournament play. Players who complain about bad aspects of the game most likely aren't taking advantage of them. I abuse them, and while it doesn't make a large difference in my win loss ratio, it still affects it. (in my favor) The important thing about being good players is that we don't wait for an edge over our opponent, we force an advantage. So while the arguement that randomness does have it's validities, being prepared and usuing the knowlege that the same can happen to your opponent kind of takes away from the arguement that unworthy people are taking wins from dedicated players. Dedicated players just aren't taking the (few) random factors of the game into account and using them to advantage.
The minimum skill advantage complaint has no validity. I'm simply dissappointed in competitive play. I've yet to see anyone take advantage of foxtrotting into dash dance smashing. It's brawl's watered down wave dash. Though it is not as versitile as wave dashing, it's still granting an advantage in zoning and baiting which is one of the shallowest parts of this game. NOBODY uses this in tournament, I've yet to see it. You would think that it would be mastered by now from all the attempts to break the game and all the pro melee players. But no... Players just whine about how shallow the game is. Add the depth, master movement. I practice only moving like that for hours, memorizing about how long it takes to trip and where my danger zones are. If you don't think that it's any good, you are a fool. I get wins simply because my spacing is superior. In fact, my brother switched to sheik, just so he could keep up with my mk. Show me a vid where someone who uses this (well) is defeated by someone who doesn't. It's not impossible, (better be a master at mind games) but chances are you'll get baited and *****. In fact, I only see the easy advanced moves in tournament vids. (LAZINESS) Go ahead, prove me wrong. (put it on youtube)...
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
You know what the problem here is? Neither game is better than the other. There, I said it. We perceive one game to be better than the other because of preference. Our own stupidity forces us to think that 'I don't prefer this' = 'This is poorly crafted' or 'This is bad'. This is not the case.
To the people saying Melee is more 'competitive' than Brawl? No, it isn't. It's a different kind of competition that you don't prefer to play.
To the people saying Brawl is just as 'competitive' as Melee? No, it isn't. It's a different kind of competition that cannot be compared.
You know what? There is a reason I put the word 'competition' in the little quoties. It's because our definition of the word is changing as we speak. This is the part that's gonna piss off all the long-time Smashboards members.
SWF used to be a place where tournament goers and lovers of 'competitive' Smash got together to do whatever: talk, discuss, set up tournaments, etc. Then Brawl got announced and more people started to join in on the fun. Now, people complain that SWF is full of 'scrubs', 'n00bs', whatever word you want to use that stands for 'not the same kind of people that used to frequent SWF'.
And we have to deal with that change now.
'Competitive Smash' will forever be different because of this paradigm shift. Now, people who never considered themselves 'competitive' are joining the fray, trying to become more 'competitive'. But everyone has a different view on what 'competition' should be, and the fact that all of the new voices, the people new to this community who actually do want to have meaningful participation, are shut down because they dissent. It goes back to the original SWF fight: 'Your way of playing is wrong.' The only difference is that, now, the fight is over what defines the competitive spirit.
The answer: THERE ISN'T ONE.
Until everyone figures that out, there will always be contention on Smashboards. The people advocating tradition over change need to get it through their heads that times are changing, and if you don't change with the times you get left behind in a very painful way. The people mindlessly trying to change everything need to figure it out that we can and need to learn from the past in order to make a future for ourselves.
Simple as that. Melee is from a comparatively archaic era of Smashing, its time (over 7 years) long gone. Brawl is the new, inexperienced kid in town, trying to make it big in a place not made for him. They can both coincide, but ONLY if the two sides realize that they are, at this point, different in just the right ways so that they represent two incomparable ideologies. Stop trying to argue which is better, because its a loaded question.
To the people saying Melee is more 'competitive' than Brawl? No, it isn't. It's a different kind of competition that you don't prefer to play.
To the people saying Brawl is just as 'competitive' as Melee? No, it isn't. It's a different kind of competition that cannot be compared.
You know what? There is a reason I put the word 'competition' in the little quoties. It's because our definition of the word is changing as we speak. This is the part that's gonna piss off all the long-time Smashboards members.
SWF used to be a place where tournament goers and lovers of 'competitive' Smash got together to do whatever: talk, discuss, set up tournaments, etc. Then Brawl got announced and more people started to join in on the fun. Now, people complain that SWF is full of 'scrubs', 'n00bs', whatever word you want to use that stands for 'not the same kind of people that used to frequent SWF'.
And we have to deal with that change now.
'Competitive Smash' will forever be different because of this paradigm shift. Now, people who never considered themselves 'competitive' are joining the fray, trying to become more 'competitive'. But everyone has a different view on what 'competition' should be, and the fact that all of the new voices, the people new to this community who actually do want to have meaningful participation, are shut down because they dissent. It goes back to the original SWF fight: 'Your way of playing is wrong.' The only difference is that, now, the fight is over what defines the competitive spirit.
The answer: THERE ISN'T ONE.
Until everyone figures that out, there will always be contention on Smashboards. The people advocating tradition over change need to get it through their heads that times are changing, and if you don't change with the times you get left behind in a very painful way. The people mindlessly trying to change everything need to figure it out that we can and need to learn from the past in order to make a future for ourselves.
Simple as that. Melee is from a comparatively archaic era of Smashing, its time (over 7 years) long gone. Brawl is the new, inexperienced kid in town, trying to make it big in a place not made for him. They can both coincide, but ONLY if the two sides realize that they are, at this point, different in just the right ways so that they represent two incomparable ideologies. Stop trying to argue which is better, because its a loaded question.
LouisLeGros
Smash Journeyman
I miss when smashboards was good
pockyD
Smash Legend
i can't believe people dislike footstool jumping
omg, you tried to edgeguard someone and they footstooled over you and you died? sounds like YOU FAILED... this is no different from samus/marth/fox/falco/anyone spiking someone as she comes back to the stage on melee
did you accidently footstool? that's not an inherent problem with the move itself, you're just not used to the game controls yet... i'm sure most of you complained at first about how hard utilts were to do and how they always ended up usmashing or jump-uairing, but after a little practice, utilting was easy... same thing with avoid accidental footstool jumps; you just have to learn the spacing and adjust to it. it's not like it happens randomly (HELLO TRIPPING), it's 100% predictable and you just need to learn how to predict it
autosweetspot is fine, though i wish you could choose NOT to autosweetspot (i.e. keep holding up and you fly past the edge), that would be far better
omg, you tried to edgeguard someone and they footstooled over you and you died? sounds like YOU FAILED... this is no different from samus/marth/fox/falco/anyone spiking someone as she comes back to the stage on melee
did you accidently footstool? that's not an inherent problem with the move itself, you're just not used to the game controls yet... i'm sure most of you complained at first about how hard utilts were to do and how they always ended up usmashing or jump-uairing, but after a little practice, utilting was easy... same thing with avoid accidental footstool jumps; you just have to learn the spacing and adjust to it. it's not like it happens randomly (HELLO TRIPPING), it's 100% predictable and you just need to learn how to predict it
autosweetspot is fine, though i wish you could choose NOT to autosweetspot (i.e. keep holding up and you fly past the edge), that would be far better
Aesir
Smash Master
I wouldn't be surprised if Azen was joking in that post.
Ciel~Image
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2008
- Messages
- 91
You can do that if you hold down as you fly past the ledge.
Did you even read the first post?
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Yes, and the topic of the thread has shifted back and forth since then. I've already addressed my thoughts on the OP previously; since then, I've moved on, as has the topics of discussion.
Finkledoodoo
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2008
- Messages
- 31
Your brain is sexy, if I were a girl, I'd have your kids!!!
epic of DE
Smash Journeyman
Well...when melee was released, L (or z) cancelling was known and some used it once they saw it did work. If you played ssb even for a little you could quickly adjust to melee after a short period of time.
I think brawl is tabula rasa, or "a clean slate" as most of the things you think of in melee don't apply to brawl because they are built for two completely different reasons. Melee as a whole is almost built for competition since a clear tier list can be shown and proven. Brawl has made an honest attempt to allow any character to defeat another character if both players are around the same playing ability.
Personally I like both games, melee provides the "Combo" moments while brawl is much easier to play for longer periods of time and is more entertaining to do multi-fights than melee.
I think brawl is tabula rasa, or "a clean slate" as most of the things you think of in melee don't apply to brawl because they are built for two completely different reasons. Melee as a whole is almost built for competition since a clear tier list can be shown and proven. Brawl has made an honest attempt to allow any character to defeat another character if both players are around the same playing ability.
Personally I like both games, melee provides the "Combo" moments while brawl is much easier to play for longer periods of time and is more entertaining to do multi-fights than melee.
pockyD
Smash Legend
that's awesome (though unintuitive - why isn't it hold up?)
Wiseguy
Smash Champion
Jack Kieser is God's gift to an ungrateful world: CONFIRMED!
Aesir
Smash Master
actually Jack doesn't know what he's talking about. Although he made some good points over all he has no idea what he's really talking about.
different types of competition? lol gtfo with that scrub ****.
different types of competition? lol gtfo with that scrub ****.
pockyD
Smash Legend
yeah
typing eloquently // making big posts does not correlate with being right
typing eloquently // making big posts does not correlate with being right
Cort
Apple Head
hey guys how do you like my sig?
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Hey Aesir & pockyD... I hear talk saying I'm wrong... but no logical arguments stating why. Coincidence? Listen, the fact of the matter is that (this is for Aesir, btw) as of right now, there is a schism on SWF as to what 'competition' means anymore. The word is being re-defined as we speak because, whether we like it or not, the community of SWF has grown to include more than just tournament players. We have to learn to deal with that now. Plain and simple.
So, yeah. Rebuttal, guys? I'm all for hearing why you think I'm wrong here, as long as its well thought-out and logical, and not just 'GTFO scrub lololol'.
EDIT: Thanks for the love Finkle and Wiseguy. ^_^ There was a great post in another thread I read this morning about how SWF started (basically, as a glorified fan site, from what it was saying) that I really wanted to link to, but now I can't find it and the search bar is being all b*tchy. I thougt it was neat how the progression of SWF (according to the post) basically went 'Casual Fansite -> Taken Over by Tournament Players -> The Great Casual/Competitive Flame War -> A mix of casual and competitive (now)'.
So, yeah. Rebuttal, guys? I'm all for hearing why you think I'm wrong here, as long as its well thought-out and logical, and not just 'GTFO scrub lololol'.
EDIT: Thanks for the love Finkle and Wiseguy. ^_^ There was a great post in another thread I read this morning about how SWF started (basically, as a glorified fan site, from what it was saying) that I really wanted to link to, but now I can't find it and the search bar is being all b*tchy. I thougt it was neat how the progression of SWF (according to the post) basically went 'Casual Fansite -> Taken Over by Tournament Players -> The Great Casual/Competitive Flame War -> A mix of casual and competitive (now)'.
Aesir
Smash Master
No it isn't
New people are trying to redefine it because they don't understand competitive play like yourself. The fact still remains that brawl is less competitive then melee, you haven't brought anything reasonable to the table as a rebuttle to this. You've actually resorted to the argument "it's a different kind of competitive"
Lol? Yeah and the looser is still a winner. Seriously have you ever played a competitive game before in your life? ever been to a tourney? I high doubt it.
So explain how is brawl just as competitive as melee?
the community is a competitively driven community, sure casuals can come in here and look for answers to questions. But the fact remains this is swfs main purpose to help organize tourneys and generally bring smash players together.
you're basically trying to say a site thats been a competitive haven for smash players for the past 6 years isn't that. thats just wrong and stupid.
flyinfilipino
Smash Master
Oh man, I gotta agree with what someone said in another thread, some of the 'competitive' community here is really pathetic.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Ha... ok. Resort to attacking me instead of the argument. That's cool.
1 ) For the last 2 years, I've been surrounded by the most competitive Smash players I've ever met; we've had people almost draw blood over the outcome of matches. I've seen every facet of what you people call 'competitive play' and have participated in my fair share of it.
2 ) You still haven't disproven the fact that there are now multiple ways to define 'competitive'. And I've never said 'the loser is still a winner'.
3 ) I said in my Wall 'o Text post that I'm not comparing Melee and Brawl expressly because they are incomparible games based on uncompatible ideologies. I'm not comparing them (i.e., not saying one is more competitive than the other), and everyone else needs to stop trying because its a fruitless endevor.
4 ) I never said SWF hasn't been a 'competitive haven for Smash players'.
5 ) SWF main purpose is to facilitate discussion of a game we all love to play. That's why the discussion boards all come before the Tournament boards.
pockyD
Smash Legend
because it's all been said in the first 100 pages; there's no need to return to the same thread every 4 days and make the same post
to me it's assumed that when you want to get in an argument in a large thread that you've read the whole thread and you understand the opposing viewpoint
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
That's understandable... except that I have read the majority of the thread and, to my knowledge, the argument has been over whether Brawl is competitive or not, not how Brawl and Melee are incomparible (in the sense that we've been discussing).
I'm saying that, due to our own ineptitude in defining what 'competitive' is, we cannot compare the two games. Melee and Brawl are antithetical, so naturally, when we use Melee's definition of 'competitive' (fast play, combos, massive tech skill) to analyze Brawl, it's only natural that we get a bogus result.
What is more competitive hockey or basketball, football or soccer, baseball or cricket?
Your comparing an old game to a new game.
One game can not be more competitive then another. They both strive for the same outcome. Win the tournament/game.
Anyone who says that something is more competitive or less competitive just comes of as an idiot.
Now i shall quote seinfeld.
"you either have grace or you dont... there is not little bit graceful"
flyinfilipino
Smash Master
"Do or do not! There is no try!"
Sorry, just wanted to throw that in there.
Sorry, just wanted to throw that in there.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
Yoda quotations FTW.
Aesir
Smash Master
truth hurts =[
I think you're lying but just to not sound like an *** I'll accept it, unless you can show me tourney results.
I never said you didn't num nuts.
There isn't theres one, so stop trying to make up new definitions it doesn't make you look smart.
(skler is smart..)
There aren't many definitions of competitive, there are different stages of competitive thats where you don't seem to understand anything.
Just because you want to think that doesn't make it right. Melee is a more competitively enriched game.
They maybe different games in terms of mechanics but the basic idea is still there, knock off the other player and keep them off, this hasn't changed and still exists in brawl.
However what has changed is Nintendo's overly simplified philosophy on games now which is very apparent in brawl. Simplifying a game doesn't make it better, or give it more depth.
Skler
Smash Master
Jack Kieser, you say there are two different types of competition in Brawl and Melee. What are those two types of competition? They are both fighting games where the goal is to hit your opponent off the stage and keep them off. They are very similar, the only big difference is that brawl has a really bad engine that removes a ton of options and slows the game down.
Point and case, Brawl and Melee are similar and have the same type of competition. Melee just has more options and a better engine, giving the game more depth. It is **** near impossible to say Brawl is just as good of a competitive game as Melee and know what you are talking about. Brawl was not made to be played competitively, it was made for kids to play with their family and have everybody feel good no matter what. Melee was made with the same idea in mind, but Sakurai made it amazing on accident.
Really though, I shouldn't have close games against Joe Scrub and M2K shouldn't have close games with me. In Melee I'd **** the scrub and get ***** by m2k. In brawl I beat the scrub and go just about even with people who know way more about Brawl than me. Why? Because there's a skill cap in brawl and it isn't hard to reach.
Point and case, Brawl and Melee are similar and have the same type of competition. Melee just has more options and a better engine, giving the game more depth. It is **** near impossible to say Brawl is just as good of a competitive game as Melee and know what you are talking about. Brawl was not made to be played competitively, it was made for kids to play with their family and have everybody feel good no matter what. Melee was made with the same idea in mind, but Sakurai made it amazing on accident.
Really though, I shouldn't have close games against Joe Scrub and M2K shouldn't have close games with me. In Melee I'd **** the scrub and get ***** by m2k. In brawl I beat the scrub and go just about even with people who know way more about Brawl than me. Why? Because there's a skill cap in brawl and it isn't hard to reach.
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