Meta Secrets of the Umbra: Bayonetta Metagame Discussion

[Sonicninja115]

Just do you know, Kuroganehammer's site has some of Bayonetta's data now that is still missing here.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bayonetta

Awesome! Thank you!

 

[Sonicninja115]

pikazz could you explain the second WT stuff here? I need to find out how to do it, and your help would be much appreciated!

Also, Bayonetta can hold shield as soon as she activates Buller Climax in the air. What this will do is cause Bayonetta to continue charging, but as soon as she hits the ground, shield comes out.

 

[_Ne0N_]

So, my friend was playing Sm4sh the other day. He found this out that makes Bayonetta broken AF.

(Uploaded on his YouTube channel)

Combine this with the combos, Bayonetta might be a threat.

 

[Pseud0]

BALLC: New Bayonetta Tech?
So, upon labbing Bayonetta, I think I've discovered something. When stacking her landing lag by doing combos in-air, it is possibly to completely eliminate all of the landing lag by using her Neutral B. Not only do you lose all the stacked lag, but you lose any other lag you might receive, as long as you don't land while still in the animation for the neutral special. Pretty cool, considering once you do a big combo that doesn't kill you can just tap B and fastfall to the ground with no lag. It's pretty useful, and I'm wondering if it can be done with any of her other moves (that are quicker than executing an uncharged Neutral B). Thoughts?

-Pseudo

 

[pikazz]

pikazz could you explain the second WT stuff here? I need to find out how to do it, and your help would be much appreciated!

Also, Bayonetta can hold shield as soon as she activates Buller Climax in the air. What this will do is cause Bayonetta to continue charging, but as soon as she hits the ground, shield comes out.

there is 2 types of WT, one thats the first one (always the first one)
the second one is the one that is used after the first one, like UpB DJ and UpB. that UpB has diffirent hitbox on the ending, making the opponent pop infront of you instead for launching away

a fine example would be that the first UpB requires SideB to reach while the second UpB can you reach with FAir/UAir

there is also 2 diffirent variant of those 2 and thats with "Bullet Art" (by holding down B during start up)

 

[Sonicninja115]

BALLC: New Bayonetta Tech?
So, upon labbing Bayonetta, I think I've discovered something. When stacking her landing lag by doing combos in-air, it is possibly to completely eliminate all of the landing lag by using her Neutral B. Not only do you lose all the stacked lag, but you lose any other lag you might receive, as long as you don't land while still in the animation for the neutral special. Pretty cool, considering once you do a big combo that doesn't kill you can just tap B and fastfall to the ground with no lag. It's pretty useful, and I'm wondering if it can be done with any of her other moves (that are quicker than executing an uncharged Neutral B). Thoughts?

-Pseudo

I found something that makes this tech a bit better. If you press B for bullet climax, and then immediately press shield, nothing will happen. Until you hit the ground, at which point a shield will come out frame 1. It is useful with Mewtwo, which is why I know about it.

So, my friend was playing Sm4sh the other day. He found this out that makes Bayonetta broken AF.

(Uploaded on his YouTube channel)

Combine this with the combos, Bayonetta might be a threat.

I tested it on sonic, and it seems that they can just let go of shield?

pikazz how do you get the second WT? Sorry I didn't clarify that...

 

[pikazz]

I found something that makes this tech a bit better. If you press B for bullet climax, and then immediately press shield, nothing will happen. Until you hit the ground, at which point a shield will come out frame 1. It is useful with Mewtwo, which is why I know about it.

I tested it on sonic, and it seems that they can just let go of shield?

pikazz how do you get the second WT? Sorry I didn't clarify that...

so you still dont know? D: the second time you use WT in air before landing (recovering or comboing) is the second WT and it has different end hitbox at the end

 

[Pseud0]

I found something that makes this tech a bit better. If you press B for bullet climax, and then immediately press shield, nothing will happen. Until you hit the ground, at which point a shield will come out frame 1. It is useful with Mewtwo, which is why I know about it.

Actually no, it seems that Bayonetta MUST execute the animation for the Neutral B in order to cancel the landing lag, so charge cancelling will not work, unfortunately.

 

[Sonicninja115]

so you still dont know? D: the second time you use WT in air before landing (recovering or comboing) is the second WT and it has different end hitbox at the end

Really? I have thought the opponent went too far. Guess I got placebo'ed.

Pseud0 so, doing an aerial in the air will result in LL if you land within the animation/Total Frames period. Doing an aerial special will cause you to have LL no matter what, this is what you are saying right?

Assuming yes, Bayonetta doesn't have a free fall, she can always use an aerial to try and get better LL upon landing. The thing is, the LL from witch twist will not apply unless you use it at a certain height, and possibly don't cancel it's LL with a different aerial. I have never heard of stacking LL, I know that a hard landing will occur after the combo, but WT's or ABK's animations, and LL should be negated by the time you land, right? Am I misunderstanding a tech or something?

 

[pikazz]

Really? I have thought the opponent went too far. Guess I got placebo'ed.

Pseud0 so, doing an aerial in the air will result in LL if you land within the animation/Total Frames period. Doing an aerial special will cause you to have LL no matter what, this is what you are saying right?

Assuming yes, Bayonetta doesn't have a free fall, she can always use an aerial to try and get better LL upon landing. The thing is, the LL from witch twist will not apply unless you use it at a certain height, and possibly don't cancel it's LL with a different aerial. I have never heard of stacking LL, I know that a hard landing will occur after the combo, but WT's or ABK's animations, and LL should be negated by the time you land, right? Am I misunderstanding a tech or something?

can record the differents between first and the second one

 

[Otterz]

can record the differents between first and the second one

Should you always be able to hit a Fair/Uair after Witch Twist 2? Seems random at times.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Okay, BALLC is weird... Why the heck does it force you to use BC? That is seriously jank.

I tested the LL, and there seems to be RCO lag with Bayonetta, probably as a result of her getting 2 up B's and not going into free fall. Definetly a useful tech. I will look into it and add it to the OP, plus I will make sure to give you credit Pseud0

No need pikazz i got the second thing down. But question, how do you get the Up B-Up B combo? Do you have to cancel the Up B at a specific frame?

 

[deepseadiva]

Oooo that Ball Cancel sounds lovely

Hope it's real.

Probably gonna get patched out. :/

 

[Sonicninja115]

Oooo that Ball Cancel sounds lovely

Hope it's real.

Probably gonna get patched out. :/

Most likely not, I am pretty sure it is a variation of MALLC, and not because of the name similarities.

Newish thing. If you ABK a wall, you will bounce. This is actually really good for a recovering mix-up. ABK-Wall bounce-Up B

 

[pikazz]

Should you always be able to hit a Fair/Uair after Witch Twist 2? Seems random at times.

not always, but it doesnt launch the opponent so far like in the first WT that you need SideB or Perfect Frame UpB to reach

Okay, BALLC is weird... Why the heck does it force you to use BC? That is seriously jank.

I tested the LL, and there seems to be RCO lag with Bayonetta, probably as a result of her getting 2 up B's and not going into free fall. Definetly a useful tech. I will look into it and add it to the OP, plus I will make sure to give you credit Pseud0

No need pikazz i got the second thing down. But question, how do you get the Up B-Up B combo? Do you have to cancel the Up B at a specific frame?

TapB WT, DJ and WT again on best possible IASA. you might also have to "move forward" 2-3 frames but its literally a frame perfect combo move. try out in 1/4 in training

 

[Otterz]

TapB WT, DJ and WT again on best possible IASA. you might also have to "move forward" 2-3 frames but its literally a frame perfect combo move. try out in 1/4 in training

So this combo would have to be frame perfect? That's a shame.

 

[DisidisiD]

Hey guys. Couple things to say.
1) This BALLC should be called BCLLC if I am understanding it correctly. What I've found is you can land while charging BC then shield and do whatever. Is this what you guys are talking about?

2) I have a theory about how exactly witch time works at slightly farther ranges. There is a range X where, if the opponent is X away from bayo, sends out a projectile/item, and bayo witch times it , bayo will do the Witch time animation but the opponent won't be witch timed. However, this doesn't seem to be true in all cases. The main one I'm going to talk about here (and the only one I know of) is Bayo's Bullet arts. At any distance where bayo can be hit by these bullets, she can witch time them and have the opposing bayo be witch timed.

My theory is that witch time only has a range limitation vs projectiles and items. If an opponent fires a projectile or throws from a range above X, they won't get witch timed. However, at ranges below X, they will. The leap in thought that this creates is that the bullets in her bullets arts aren't actually projectiles per se and are in fact just a disjoint. This would allow for my theory to be correct and explain this phenomenon.

This helps define exactly what our smashes are: items. The tip of our usmash is actually a larger distance from us than X. Thus, a witch timing opponent at the tip of out usmash who which times it will not which time us. If my theory is correct, then it would help explain why that happens.

Another reason for why smashes are items is shield stun. I haven't gone through the calculations but it feels as though the shield stun of our smashes is really low for the power the moves have. The only explanations I have for this is that the smashes are items, as items have a different calculation for shield stun that normally creates less shield stun. This is one more reason to only use these moves when it is a confirmed hit, as they aren't as safe as they would seem to be.

EDIT: and of course there the obvious reason that it clashes with a lot of moves. To counter this, if you W. Time the opponent, jab them then do the smash.

 

[pikazz]

So this combo would have to be frame perfect? That's a shame.

that combo (upB to UpB) isnt really "hard" once you actually have gotten into it, but I believe it needs to be between 2-3 frames and its not forgiving

 

[Pseud0]

Hey guys. Couple things to say.
1) This BALLC should be called BCLLC if I am understanding it correctly. What I've found is you can land while charging BC then shield and do whatever. Is this what you guys are talking about?

No, this tech is Bullet Art Landing Lag Cancel, in which you can cancel the stacking of your landing lag from aerial combos by executing the animation of a neutral b. The point is to be able to land as fast as possible without suffering the ~30 frames of landing lag you'll recieve if you do a hefty aerial combo.

 

[Otterz]

No, this tech is Bullet Art Landing Lag Cancel, in which you can cancel the stacking of your landing lag from aerial combos by executing the animation of a neutral b. The point is to be able to land as fast as possible without suffering the ~30 frames of landing lag you'll recieve if you do a hefty aerial combo.

I think D DisidisiD is calling it BCLLC because you use Bullet Climax to cancel the LL, not Bullet Arts.

 

[Pseud0]

Okay, BALLC is weird... Why the heck does it force you to use BC? That is seriously jank.

I tested the LL, and there seems to be RCO lag with Bayonetta, probably as a result of her getting 2 up B's and not going into free fall. Definetly a useful tech. I will look into it and add it to the OP, plus I will make sure to give you credit Pseud0

I'm not sure it's RCO lag, simply because she doesn't need to be attacked in order for the lag to initiate. I am pretty sure it's just a character specific mechanic which stacks landing lag in order to "balance" her aerial combos. They mentioned it in the character trailer/explanation I believe. That's the point of BALLC. A good way to test this is to: Jump-UpB-Jump-UpB-SideB and land. You'll see that you'll have a ton of landing lag, which is the point of this tech. Try doing that same sequence, but after the UpAir, tap B. You'll see that upon landing, ALL of that lag disappears. For some reason, you will still suffer the hard Landing Lag if you charge cancel the bullets, and it doesnt seem to work with Witch Time, so it seems using the neutral B might be the only way to eliminate this lag.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think D DisidisiD is calling it BCLLC because you use Bullet Climax to cancel the LL, not Bullet Arts.

BALLC sounds so much cooler. Can we please bend the rules?

Pseud0 RCO is the only mechanic that sortsa matcches what is happening. I don't believe this happens to any other character. Right? It doesn't happen to mewtwo or Diddy at least.

 

[Pseud0]

I think D DisidisiD is calling it BCLLC because you use Bullet Climax to cancel the LL, not Bullet Arts.

Gah well. Let's call it Climax Cancelling, or something.

I really like BALLC though.

 

[Otterz]

Gah well. Let's call it Climax Cancelling, or something.

If all of Bayonetta's ATs were innuendos that would fit her perfectly.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Gah well. Let's call it Climax Cancelling, or something.

Climax cancelling could work as well.

Also, I am adding Tech and combo names to the discussion topics.

 

[Pseud0]

BALLC sounds so much cooler. Can we please bend the rules?

Pseud0 RCO is the only mechanic that sortsa matcches what is happening. I don't believe this happens to any other character. Right? It doesn't happen to mewtwo or Diddy at least.

No, it doesn't. I'm pretty positive it's character specific.

 

[Saykrd]

Im not sure if this is true or not but id appreciate if someone here could find out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hUg9fgcxMw

There's also another variant of this combo that goes Dtilt-WT-ABK-WT-ABK-UAir that's slightly more reliable since ABK-UAir is harder to DI out of than ABK-ABK-Uair. I'd post a video but I don't have recording tools :/

 

[Sonicninja115]

There's also another variant of this combo that goes Dtilt-WT-ABK-WT-ABK-UAir that's slightly more reliable since ABK-UAir is harder to DI out of than ABK-ABK-Uair. I'd post a video but I don't have recording tools :/

Do you have Sm4sh on the wii U? It allows you to upload replays to youtube.

 

[Otterz]

There's also another variant of this combo that goes Dtilt-WT-ABK-WT-ABK-UAir that's slightly more reliable since ABK-UAir is harder to DI out of than ABK-ABK-Uair. I'd post a video but I don't have recording tools :/

I've been using the combo you stated consistently. It KOs if used around ~50%.

You can also catch the opponent off guard and replace Dtilt with UpThrow, but I'm pretty sure its not guaranteed at the percents it will kill.

 

[Pseud0]

I've been using the combo you stated consistently. It KOs if used around ~50%.

You can also catch the opponent off guard and replace Dtilt with UpThrow, but I'm pretty sure its not guaranteed at the percents it will kill.

ayy Charlotte boyz

 

[deepseadiva]

Climax Cancelling please.

No need to fog the information through inaccessible acronyms.

 

[Otterz]

ayy Charlotte boyz

Haha I've actually played you in a tourney when you played Rosalina. I was one of the only ZSS, but I committed to Bayonetta ever since her reveal.

 

[Pseud0]

Haha I've actually played you in a tourney when you played Rosalina. I was one of the only ZSS, but I committed to Bayonetta ever since her reveal.

I know you! Small world, never thought I'd see another SiA regular cruising around SB. And same here man, Bayo is my one and only.

 

[Turokman5896]

Watching/ reading up on bayonetta stuff, I've heard that "everything" bayonetta has is easily DI-able. Does DI really have a crippling impact on her combos? My brother and I tried holding down and away on various combos + starters and they seemed to work, but not super consistently...

 

[DunnoBro]

I've been labbing a edgeguarding flowchart, and while woefully incomplete I do think I found some decent general coverage others might've missed.

The big one is Bullet Arts + Shield Cancel + Jump Cancel Upsmash

While you may feel obligated to dsmash since it spikes, upsmash just comes out sooner due to shield canceling and covers the same ground. Also is still hella strong with a better anti-air hitbox to counter high recoveries.

I pretty much charge bullet arts on the ledge and keep shield canceling, either to grab, usmash, snipe them raw, or run off and dair OR witch time. Witch timing even someone's ledge grab appears to ensure a easy ledge trump > bair.

If they have no hitbox, probably best to just dair + witch twist.

Watching/ reading up on bayonetta stuff, I've heard that "everything" bayonetta has is easily DI-able. Does DI really have a crippling impact on her combos? My brother and I tried holding down and away on various combos + starters and they seemed to work, but not super consistently...

In general only her vertically based strings are reliable.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Watching/ reading up on bayonetta stuff, I've heard that "everything" bayonetta has is easily DI-able. Does DI really have a crippling impact on her combos? My brother and I tried holding down and away on various combos + starters and they seemed to work, but not super consistently...

DI can really hurt her combos, but only certain DI. You have to DI away at a certain percent range and DI Down at low Percents. There is probably a window where DI doesn't work, but because of how young her Metagame is, we haven't labbed it yet.

 

[Saykrd]

Do you have Sm4sh on the wii U? It allows you to upload replays to youtube.

I do, I was just lazy . Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D2lIlT_Qk4

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

Apologies if someone already said this, but while playing friendlies as bayonetta with one of my friends today, I figured out that at I think low to medium percents, you can just use the first three hits of jab and go for a dtilt almost immediately after, tacking on extra damage and netting you dtilt followups. I feel like using this instead of rapid jab is a good mixup (or a better option altogether), although I could be completely wrong.

 

[Otterz]

Apologies if someone already said this, but while playing friendlies as bayonetta with one of my friends today, I figured out that at I think low to medium percents, you can just use the first three hits of jab and go for a dtilt almost immediately after, tacking on extra damage and netting you dtilt followups. I feel like using this instead of rapid jab is a good mixup (or a better option altogether), although I could be completely wrong.

I can't test this for myself right now, but if this is a true combo it could really improve our neutral. Jab is far easier to connect than Dtilt IMO.

Great find.

 

[ElMoro995]

I tried also jab123 grab and it seems to me quite a reliable mixup, at certain percentages upthrow can lead into upb->some stuff->kill off the top, and the first hits of jab have very low kbg so you can always try this mixup if you notice that the opponent shields the jab123->dtilt