Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[FallenHero]

Damn it, I don't know why I just automatically stop getting alerts from this thread every now and then.

Anyways, I watched the Art of Marth guide and I think it is going to help me out quite a bit. I haven't been really as focused on smash for a while now, so I have gotten really rusty, but I really want to get back into the game and be even better than I was before.

 

[Bowserboy3]

This place is kind of dead.

Let me attempt to revitalise it with quite possibly the strangest combo I have ever done with Marth.

complete with potato quality

 

[Vipermoon]

Dair sourspot knockdown into Fsmash is fun. The Fsmash reaches unnaturally far because of how your opponent is laying wide on the ground.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Yeah, I was lucky it was DK who was the poor recipient of the move; if it was somebody smaller, it might have missed.

Though upon further inspection, it looks like I did a stutter step Fsmash, so that probably helped too.

 

[FallenHero]

Is it just me or is Marth vs Cloud like a Marth ditto, except imagine the other Marth is just straight up at the advantage in most situations? Also yes, I am salty.

 

[Shaya]

Cloud is Edgy: Blonde Edition Marth after all.

I still maintain it's a slight tip to Cloud, but the match ups mostly fine. It's the attrition that sucks it out of you, especially vs limit. But getting a nice rising back air into a stock is always a feasibility :D

 

[JayE]

I think the matchup is pretty close to even, Cloud wins slightly in my opinion

 

[FallenHero]

Cloud is Edgy: Blonde Edition Marth after all.

I still maintain it's a slight tip to Cloud, but the match ups mostly fine. It's the attrition that sucks it out of you, especially vs limit. But getting a nice rising back air into a stock is always a feasibility :D

What I specifically meant was that fighting him feels like a Marth ditto, but the other Marth has better range, frame data, and combo potential than you. I feel like sometimes Marth looks in the mirror and just sees Cloud staring at him, and then he says: "I'm you....the better you...".

 

[ぱみゅ]

Marth has problems landing against Cloud.
Cloud has trouble recovering against Marth.
It's pretty even if you manage not to fall into Cloud's pacing, if both are constantly pressing buttons Cloud will have the upper hand. Be patient, space well, don't rush anything, be cautious of his Limit range.

 

[Shaya]

What I specifically meant was that fighting him feels like a Marth ditto, but the other Marth has better range, frame data, and combo potential than you. I feel like sometimes Marth looks in the mirror and just sees Cloud staring at him, and then he says: "I'm you....the better you...".

Well Marth as a whole is a character with a higher precision requirement, against another character with similar abilities with less precision requirements (hitbox duration and sizes) it may feel like there's deficits in range and frame data but it's a lieee.
Yes auto cancels do give more combo potential but it's not like we don't have amazing things like up tilt, AC bair, up air (landing or AC'd, mid air you go for frame traps) and most importantly, jab. Oh yeah and down tilt really messes with stage control in our favour too.

 

[Vipermoon]

I was thinking about what is making Marth so successful right now and while the range and damage buffs means he can generally press buttons safely, the optimization of Dancing Blade has become super important. Players like MKLeo get tippers more often than not. Shaya, you once said if Dancing Blade kills Marth would be in there (paraphrase). Well he's in there thanks to DB3-Up and Down.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It's interesting you mention Dancing Blade Vipermoon , because after watching Leo recently, I realised I haven't been giving Dancing Blade enough credit, more so, getting it to link when I really didn't think it would work (and on top of that, it kills too). I've been getting Dancing Blade kills a lot more recently. One of my favourite things is using Down 3 into Side 4 tipper... mmmmmm...

The Marth:Cloud MU topic is quite relevant to me actually; after coming back from a tournament that had literally every player with a competent Cloud(I use that word loosely; some were as competent as their mains, others were just good), I think the MU is even. To be honest, whether or not it's just me being hopeful, but I could see the MU being developed further in the future to be more in the favour of Marth (only slightly, mind), but I don't think either character has even a minor advantage over one another right now. For every area Cloud performs well in, I find Marth performs better in a different area, and vice versa. They are kind of like ying and yang, light and dark; they balance eachother out.

I will admit, I am most likely much more optimistic about the MU than others. I've played the Cloud MU more times than I want to think (my friend plays Cloud). This is likely the reason why I feel Marth straight up beats Captain Falcon, as once again, it's one of my most played MU's; one of the best players in my area is a Falcon main, we play friendlies all the time (such as today, got in at least a good 30 or so matches after the tournament was over).

I'm interested in people's opinions on the Corrin MU though. Of all the characters I faced as Marth today, Corrin was giving me the most trouble. I personally feel it is even, but I can't play how I feel the MU is consistently enough.

 

[N 2the ayr]

I solo mained Corrin for about 6+ months before pretty much switching over to Marth (Corrin's neutral other than insta pin can blow and she never completely fit my play style) and I like to think I have a decent grasp on both characters. In my opinion I'd give Marth a slight advantage because the arc on his sword/range can really hurt Corrin and keep her out plus he can run off counter her recovery if you have a good angle. Corrin's mobility sucks (Marth's walk is faster than her run lol) as well as her landing options which leads to good juggle situations for Marf.

On the flip side Corrin has a good juggle game herself and Marth has a hard time landing too. She can do some stupid **** with dragon shot/bite, pin, and her counter is still nuts at high %'s even after the nerf. She has range but it's mostly straight horizontal other than pin/angled FSmash. She's deceptively heavy (98) and that plus her large character model can lead to her getting bodied at times.

Honestly you can probably make a decent argument for both sides though. It's a fun MU to play with both characters.

 

[Shaya]

I was thinking about what is making Marth so successful right now and while the range and damage buffs means he can generally press buttons safely, the optimization of Dancing Blade has become super important. Players like MKLeo get tippers more often than not. Shaya, you once said if Dancing Blade kills Marth would be in there (paraphrase). Well he's in there thanks to DB3-Up and Down.

I originally said a significant boon would be dancing blade actually connecting properly, full stop; we got that half way through the patch. It's pretty good we got that.
I think the DB1 animation rate change might've helped consistency too (technically it was a move that came out in like 6.8 frames [or was it 7.2? something like that], I had concerns about how those would work out).
Consistently killing with it though - well as I said after the first few changes, now a mixture of intelligent waiting and alternative strike usage could give us tipper finishers which kill extremelyyyyyyy early. Leo is showing that.

Another one of those things which is better in smash4 for marth (in this particular case) than in Brawl.
Brawl you would have SDI to worry about. Not only SDI-ing out to get punishes (which could be mitigated somewhat) for the opponent, there was also 'sdi in so you'll never be tippered by the final hit', generally DB would also be really stale and momentum canceling culled it's ability to ever KO unless it was fresh (so fresh that you only hit with the last hit, lel )

so yeah, it's feasible to be KOing with DB in Smash4 in a way not really a thing in Brawl.

But yeah, it isn't just from DB3 variance, it's also a lot to do with timing.

 

[ElementUser]

Well, I'm back with sticking to Marth more, especially after The Art of Marth video came out & not doing that well with Peach in some locals.

Looks like I'm forever a Marth main for Smash 4 :O

 

[Vipermoon]

I originally said a significant boon would be dancing blade actually connecting properly, full stop; we got that half way through the patch. It's pretty good we got that.
I think the DB1 animation rate change might've helped consistency too (technically it was a move that came out in like 6.8 frames [or was it 7.2? something like that], I had concerns about how those would work out).
Consistently killing with it though - well as I said after the first few changes, now a mixture of intelligent waiting and alternative strike usage could give us tipper finishers which kill extremelyyyyyyy early. Leo is showing that.

Another one of those things which is better in smash4 for marth (in this particular case) than in Brawl.
Brawl you would have SDI to worry about. Not only SDI-ing out to get punishes (which could be mitigated somewhat) for the opponent, there was also 'sdi in so you'll never be tippered by the final hit', generally DB would also be really stale and momentum canceling culled it's ability to ever KO unless it was fresh (so fresh that you only hit with the last hit, lel )

so yeah, it's feasible to be KOing with DB in Smash4 in a way not really a thing in Brawl.

But yeah, it isn't just from DB3 variance, it's also a lot to do with timing.

Did DB also have a 0.8 SDI multiplier in Brawl? The Up combo in Brawl seemed underutilized.

Yes, of course timing as well. I left that out. It took me so long (too long) to figure out when and how long to wait and get acclimated to different characters, DIs, and rage percents. Also to successfully condition myself to do it right. But I'll still mess it up. And then to condition myself to actively watch and react to opponent positions during the combo. There are dozens of other concepts that further complexify this like how to incorporate into stale-mechanic stategy, what to do if shielded, when and how to use DB4 Down for damage, and VERY IMPORTANT: what to do after the respective 4th hit and all the dozens of factors that decide that.

What a complicated attack, no, art. I hope people aren't watching these DB kills thinking that it's this brain dead, win-button.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I remember it used to get SDI'd so people escaped behind him, so it probably had a normal SDI multiplier.

 

[Nu~]

Cloud is Edgy: Blonde Edition Marth after all.

I still maintain it's a slight tip to Cloud, but the match ups mostly fine. It's the attrition that sucks it out of you, especially vs limit. But getting a nice rising back air into a stock is always a feasibility :D

I apologize for the randomness of the question, but what do you mean by attrition? Whenever I see you post about Marth losing the war of attrition, a lot of vague ideas of why come to mind...but I'm still not quite sure.

Why does a character based around patience and efficiency lose that kind of battle?

 

[Shaya]

Marth commits a lot in essentially every action he takes, his grab reward is meager.
Many solid characters can play very non-committal against him and have tools which reliably punish him for baited actions, they only go for chip damage set ups unless you can freely react/respond to him committing in a way you can hit him even harder for.

Characters like Sheik, Sonic, Fox, can see you act and then move in and get a hit or grab nearly every single time.
While Neutral vs Cloud is generally fine, and if you get him into a juggle or off stage situation it's pretty mint - there's nothing stopping Cloud from charging limit against a Marth (usually), and Cloud can KO us from commitments easier than anyone in the cast. Like, if Marth jumps, and you react with LCS, Marth loses. You can maybe full hop air dodge instead, or commit even more by double jumping or something but then be in a spot where the LCS is even more freely guaranteed on a basic read / reaction.

tl;dr Marth kinda has to deal with Cloud being in limit most of the time. While fortunately Marth can get the ball rolling with grabs, a Cloud who plays patiently in limit in such a way that avoids grabs leave little room for Marth to ever engage in a situation above 50/50 odds. If Marth is forced to play in sub 50/50 situations 100% of the time, he's likely going to lose.

The solution: don't get to KO% as Marth against good characters without a lead you're capable of holding.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Anyone care to explain why exactly Marth has these huge magnet hands?

This is probably the biggest distance I've seen him grab the ledge from.

 

[Vipermoon]

Anyone care to explain why exactly Marth has these huge magnet hands?

This is probably the biggest distance I've seen him grab the ledge from.

I've seen bigger from Ganondorf himself.

 

[JayE]

Marth has those long arms... long grab range in Melee, magnet hands in Smash 4 lol

 

[Bowserboy3]

The "magnet hands" phenomenon is always something I've been interested in. Why are some characters (like Marth) able to grab the ledge from a huge distance away with their Up Special, and why are some characters (off the top of my head, Mewtwo comes to mind) not able to do so? It's always interested me, even more so because Marth seems to have an extremely big range to grab the ledge.

Something I read that might have something to do with it are characters hand positions as they end their Up Special, and using the examples of Marth and Mewtwo as above, it may have something to do with it after all... that, or it's just pure coincidence.

Think about it a second though... as Marth does his Dolphin Slash, he twirls around anti-clockwise once at the apex of the slash, and as he twirls, it seems he uses his free arm (left arm) to waft his cape away from him (as it wraps around him when he twirls), and as such, his left arm is extended out a little. Mewtwo however, has his arms folded during and Teleport, so his arms are not stretching anywhere.

This could be just a huge coincidence, but it does make more and more sense the more and more I think about other examples... Marth, Mario, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf all seem to have big magnet hands, and all have their arms outstretched at some point or another, and characters like Mewtwo, Bowser, Duck Hunt, Charizard almost never seem to have this luxury, and they don't outstretch their arms (or paws, limbs, whatever you want to say for Duck Hunt) when doing their Up Specials...

Of course what I just said could all be nonesense, but we don't know.

Perhaps I am just looking into this waaaaay too hard, but it's a phenomenon that legitimately interests me. I'd love to get fully to the bottom of this.

 

[JayE]

I always thought thats just how the game works in Smash 4, compared to Melee, where its harder to grab the ledge and timings are much more strict for recovery. The ledge mechanics are different

 

[Vipermoon]

It may just be different grab ledge "hitbox" sizes and locations for each character.

 

[DariusM27]

Hey all, question for you. Do you go to local tournys? If so, do you go consistently? If so, how do you do?

I've been to a few local tournys, won some small tournys, last year, marth only. I actually got a $200 payout once! My friend who mains Ike took 2nd and we split it down the middle.

But since then the competitive scene has tightened up in Louisville Ky. I can take games from the best, but consistency is alluding me. I think that is both a smash 4 thing and a Marth thing.

Anyway, id like to know your experience too! Thanks for your work in the Marth meta!

 

[Emblem Lord]

So like...yall still don't get that programmers intentionally design characters with different innate traits?

 

[Vipermoon]

Hey all, question for you. Do you go to local tournys? If so, do you go consistently? If so, how do you do?

I've been to a few local tournys, won some small tournys, last year, marth only. I actually got a $200 payout once! My friend who mains Ike took 2nd and we split it down the middle.

But since then the competitive scene has tightened up in Louisville Ky. I can take games from the best, but consistency is alluding me. I think that is both a smash 4 thing and a Marth thing.

Anyway, id like to know your experience too! Thanks for your work in the Marth meta!

Same. The Michigan scene went from competetive to even more huge and almost professional since the game came out. It doesn't help that life makes it so that I can't really go to tourneys.

 

[DariusM27]

Same. The Michigan scene went from competetive to even more huge and almost professional since the game came out. It doesn't help that life makes it so that I can't really go to tourneys.

same here. job+2kids=0smash4 tournys :/ lol
Even on FG it seems like every other guy is a freaking professional at the game, lol. So hard to be dominant these days.

 

[Vipermoon]

Some For Glory players are good at seeming good but then you play them more and you see catastrophic habits.

Edit: but then you get an experienced tournament player who seems okay at first but that quickly changes. Getting this guy is a very rare occurrence.

 

[JayE]

Same. The Michigan scene went from competetive to even more huge and almost professional since the game came out. It doesn't help that life makes it so that I can't really go to tourneys.

Same, many people have asked me if I go to tourneys. I just reply that I haven't gone to any yet and life stuff prevents me from going.

 

[Bowserboy3]

So like...yall still don't get that programmers intentionally design characters with different innate traits?

Nah, it's that some of us are interested in these design quirks, especially when it's something odd like this. Simple as that really.

---

In regards to tournaments, I do go to tournaments, big or small within my area. My life is kind of boring in general; I don't go to college or university, as I have a job, but that's about as "exciting" as my life gets (no kids for example; respect to you Darius for managing work life/home life/smash life all at once!). I can drive, so I'm looking to travel out a bit further to get more experience, but that's beside the point...

Anyway, with anything in Smash 4, it's just hard to be consistent in general. We can hate it and mock it as much as we like, but the presence of For Glory means your average Joe can come enter a tournament for the first time and end up placing highly (I should know, I was that average Joe once; placed 3rd in my first tournament). It's no tool for becoming the best player, but it's certainly a tool useful for getting some raw competitive basics and MU knowledge down.

I've made it out of pools at every large tournament I've attended so far, but where I place after is a big mix. I've placed as high as 3rd, but have placed 5th, 7th, and even as low as getting knocked straight into losers and straight out. I'm lucky to be in an area where there's a Smash 4 weekly, and I'm at a bit of a sticking point where I seem to get 3rd most weeks. I've come 2nd a couple of times, but it's usually me, our Yoshi main, and our Ganondorf main who place in the top 3 (yes, you read that right, a Ganondorf main, and he's no slouch either; every tournament bar one that I've seen him attend, he's managed to get top 10 every time).

I know I'm not the best player ever, so my goal whenever I attend a tournament is to just get out of pools and get some friendlies with some of the best players. So far I've managed to do this. So, from a consistency view, I've been pretty consistent in my own goals. In terms of placements, I'd say I've been consistently average overall; I can easily beat the best players in our area some weeks as easy as then can me in others. I do use 4 characters, and while some might say that's not wise, it's what works for me, and if I'm not working with one character, I can fall back on somebody else. I will say that as of late, I've been relying on Marth a whole lot more than anyone else mind. As of late, it's been Marth > Bayonetta/Rosalina > ZSS.

After attending those weeklies, I've become good buddies with most of them who also attend every week, and there's about 15 of us who all play 2 or 3 (4 in my case) characters, and between us, we cover a good portion of the cast, so we're always practicing different MU's. Luckily, there's another good Marth there though, so we're always swapping tips (pun entirely intended).

---

Back to FG, how often do you people find people you know on there? I've found a few faces I've met at various tournaments on there. I found one of the UK's best players, Luigimitsu a couple of days ago. I played around 20 games with him, and managed to keep the win ratio relatively even with Marth, so that made me happy (also managed to not drop a game against his Villager with Bayonetta, so result!). I've also found Mr R on FG once, and I managed to beat his Falcon with my Samus, but I quit afterwards, and I really wish I didn't now.

 

[DariusM27]

Nah, it's that some of us are interested in these design quirks, especially when it's something odd like this. Simple as that really.

---

In regards to tournaments, I do go to tournaments, big or small within my area. My life is kind of boring in general; I don't go to college or university, as I have a job, but that's about as "exciting" as my life gets (no kids for example; respect to you Darius for managing work life/home life/smash life all at once!). I can drive, so I'm looking to travel out a bit further to get more experience, but that's beside the point...

Anyway, with anything in Smash 4, it's just hard to be consistent in general. We can hate it and mock it as much as we like, but the presence of For Glory means your average Joe can come enter a tournament for the first time and end up placing highly (I should know, I was that average Joe once; placed 3rd in my first tournament). It's no tool for becoming the best player, but it's certainly a tool useful for getting some raw competitive basics and MU knowledge down.

I've made it out of pools at every large tournament I've attended so far, but where I place after is a big mix. I've placed as high as 3rd, but have placed 5th, 7th, and even as low as getting knocked straight into losers and straight out. I'm lucky to be in an area where there's a Smash 4 weekly, and I'm at a bit of a sticking point where I seem to get 3rd most weeks. I've come 2nd a couple of times, but it's usually me, our Yoshi main, and our Ganondorf main who place in the top 3 (yes, you read that right, a Ganondorf main, and he's no slouch either; every tournament bar one that I've seen him attend, he's managed to get top 10 every time).

I know I'm not the best player ever, so my goal whenever I attend a tournament is to just get out of pools and get some friendlies with some of the best players. So far I've managed to do this. So, from a consistency view, I've been pretty consistent in my own goals. In terms of placements, I'd say I've been consistently average overall; I can easily beat the best players in our area some weeks as easy as then can me in others. I do use 4 characters, and while some might say that's not wise, it's what works for me, and if I'm not working with one character, I can fall back on somebody else. I will say that as of late, I've been relying on Marth a whole lot more than anyone else mind. As of late, it's been Marth > Bayonetta/Rosalina > ZSS.

After attending those weeklies, I've become good buddies with most of them who also attend every week, and there's about 15 of us who all play 2 or 3 (4 in my case) characters, and between us, we cover a good portion of the cast, so we're always practicing different MU's. Luckily, there's another good Marth there though, so we're always swapping tips (pun entirely intended).

---

Back to FG, how often do you people find people you know on there? I've found a few faces I've met at various tournaments on there. I found one of the UK's best players, Luigimitsu a couple of days ago. I played around 20 games with him, and managed to keep the win ratio relatively even with Marth, so that made me happy (also managed to not drop a game against his Villager with Bayonetta, so result!). I've also found Mr R on FG once, and I managed to beat his Falcon with my Samus, but I quit afterwards, and I really wish I didn't now.

I don't usually see people I know, but I have seen Darkshad on there, and I've played him in tourny before too.

Also Bowserboy3, I'm going to upload some ridiculous Bayo sets I just played. I know you are a Bayo front runner, I'd like your opinion. The guy was from Mexico according to his avatar thing, so surprised I didn't have worse lag. Anyway, I took one game, but it felt like I was playing an impossible MU.
Lately I've been feeling that way about a lot of characters, but Bayo is a bit worse.
I guess I'll upload them in the video discussion page. If you have time to see them, thanks

 

[Bowserboy3]

I don't usually see people I know, but I have seen Darkshad on there, and I've played him in tourny before too.

Also Bowserboy3, I'm going to upload some ridiculous Bayo sets I just played. I know you are a Bayo front runner, I'd like your opinion. The guy was from Mexico according to his avatar thing, so surprised I didn't have worse lag. Anyway, I took one game, but it felt like I was playing an impossible MU.
Lately I've been feeling that way about a lot of characters, but Bayo is a bit worse.
I guess I'll upload them in the video discussion page. If you have time to see them, thanks

Oh that's cool! I have plenty of time now (finished for Christmas), so tag me when you upload one. It will be interesting to see two characters I use up against eachother.

 

[DariusM27]

Oh that's cool! I have plenty of time now (finished for Christmas), so tag me when you upload one. It will be interesting to see two characters I use up against eachother.

Thanks! They are uploaded now.
https://smashboards.com/threads/hero-kings-council-video-analysis.368553/page-19

Playing Marth vs Bayo or Diddy reminds me of the opening scene to Saving Private Ryan. Like, you MIGHT get to the top of that hill... but it doesn't seem likely.

 

[CURRY]

I find that I like to retreat a lot with dash. People overusing rolls, people reading rolls, and just the general stigma of losing because of rolls was so ingrained in me as a novice player (I still am a novice player, considering that I haven't gotten the fear of rolling out of my system yet) that I just use dash all the time to retreat instead of rolling. More options out of dash, dash can be interrupted anytime, Marth has a low hurtbox, etc. etc.
However, I find that even though I'm retreating with dash, people still read me and catch me on my dash retreat. I don't particularly remember if in any of those situations that I get punished roll that would've been better, but watching this:
https://youtu.be/cK0Ud8Osn0I?t=6m13s
MK Leo rolls away from the monkey flip kick: a move that I myself get hit with way too often when I dash away.

That roll can kinda be seen as a move that lead into an offensive option. Should I be looking at roll as kind of... an offensive option?
But then again, when I'm dashing away, I'm never thinking about punishing. I'm thinking about how the opponent might punish me for a move that hit shield, whiffed, etc.
So is the answer to just be able to switch from defense to offense in an instant?

AHH what the hell.
How should I be using roll as Marth? lol.

 

[DariusM27]

Posting here in honor of MkLeo's Amazing run to win ZeRo's saga. He truly advanced Marth in the meta and proved his worth. Thank you for your work Leo.

 

[Vipermoon]

I haven't watch ZeRo Saga yet but I can't wait. It seems that 1) Leo is way too good 2) no one is capable of winning their own Saga even still

I find that I like to retreat a lot with dash. People overusing rolls, people reading rolls, and just the general stigma of losing because of rolls was so ingrained in me as a novice player (I still am a novice player, considering that I haven't gotten the fear of rolling out of my system yet) that I just use dash all the time to retreat instead of rolling. More options out of dash, dash can be interrupted anytime, Marth has a low hurtbox, etc. etc.
However, I find that even though I'm retreating with dash, people still read me and catch me on my dash retreat. I don't particularly remember if in any of those situations that I get punished roll that would've been better, but watching this:
https://youtu.be/cK0Ud8Osn0I?t=6m13s
MK Leo rolls away from the monkey flip kick: a move that I myself get hit with way too often when I dash away.

That roll can kinda be seen as a move that lead into an offensive option. Should I be looking at roll as kind of... an offensive option?
But then again, when I'm dashing away, I'm never thinking about punishing. I'm thinking about how the opponent might punish me for a move that hit shield, whiffed, etc.
So is the answer to just be able to switch from defense to offense in an instant?

AHH what the hell.
How should I be using roll as Marth? lol.

Real quick: I use the dash aways too. They kind of are punishable in that you can't shield for a while. I don't know why sometimes I use them instead of roll as it often isn't clear why it's better/why I chose it

Edit: I'll add one more thing: Marth roll is a very long distance so I use to get on the other side of someone when they are throwing projectiles, jumping around, or landing from a vertical knockback.

 

[DariusM27]

I haven't watch ZeRo Saga yet but I can't wait. It seems that 1) Leo is way too good 2) no one is capable of winning their own Saga even still



Real quick: I use the dash aways too. They kind of are punishable in that you can't shield for a while. I don't know why sometimes I use them instead of roll as it often isn't clear why it's better/why I chose it

Edit: I'll add one more thing: Marth roll is a very long distance so I use to get on the other side of someone when they are throwing projectiles, jumping around, or landing from a vertical knockback.

I've been having a hard time w/ Megaman (Who hasn't) and I noticed people rolling behind his spam in the tourny the other day. I think Zinoto tried that, but on the other hand, he lost 3 - 0 to Kameme. He had no answer.

 

[DariusM27]

In case you haven't seen it - MkLeo recently took another tourny vs Ally in GF. Leo lost winners finals, then 3-0 GF set 1 to reset, and took the next set 3 - 1 I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AKokp9rXcE

I never thought the MU was in Marth's favor and I didn't think it was even, but Leo is changing things. The way he pivots back, makes me think of how Muhammad Ali would dance backwards in his boxing matches.