Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah I learned that recently too. Its pretty simple, you just press B at a precise moment (its basically the frame your shins are at ground level).

As for usefulness ... I haven't gotten much progress on that. The only real benefit is that you are grounded, which means you could cancel needles and shield drop quickly. But you lose the ability to throw needles at the diagonal which is an important defensive option, and landing like this is barely faster than wavelanding.

There is one "use" Pdub has found. If you are attempting to fullhop needle turn around to the edge (to edgehog someone), you can have this happen. What occurs is you jump, land on the platform, slide off with momentum, cancel needles and land on the edge. I'm not sure its any faster than SH needle turn around, but it looks amazing when it happens.

 

[Audos]

Man it's quiet in here

I couldn't find anything really about this tech, but I've been wondering about what causes it for a while now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxLKs-vs0w0 - (this is not my Video btw)

Do you guys have any information about it? I could see it being somewhat useful.. or at least incredibly flashy :>

I don't have any definitive ruling on the use of the tech, but in my opinion it doesn't hold much value. I'd say it's biggest use would be that you can try to use certain moves facing a different direction than if you just wavelanded, but overall wavelanding has more use. I can't think of much that sheik couldn't easily use the momentum from wavelanding and still do the same things as in this tech (just turning around for a frame first)

A lot of it comes down to raw frame data, is this tech faster than wavelanding in place?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Actually now that you mention it, it might be ~10 frames faster to platform cancel needle turnaround shield-drop compared to waveland dash shield-drop. I'll do testing on this today.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Why is it that after auto cancelling an aerial, you get locked out dropping through the platform via the regular method (I know you can shield drop or walk forward and then drop through)?

 

[tauKhan]

Same reason why you can't drop after empty jump. Normal platform drops can be done on the 4th frame of initial crouch (Squat). When you auto-cancel, you get normal impact land and holding down in that animation puts you straight into SquatWait, skipping Squat, so you don't get the opportunity to drop.

Dtilt also puts you to SquatWait when it ends, so you can't platform drop immediately after performing dtilt either.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Well it's a good thing at least walking cancels that animation. And shield dropping is a thing.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Needle startup is 8 frames. Storing your needles also takes 8 frames. So at minimum you are spending 16 frames in needle animation. Wavelanding is only 10 frames of lag. So no matter what, the platform cancel needle turn around is slower than waveland -> dash.

From my testing, I could only get the platform cancel needle to work on battlefield. It appears to be because of how ECB updates after a jump, for the first 10 frames it remains very elongated, but then it updates and is at a normal place on your body. It just happens to be the same frame sheik's fullhop reaches even with the battlefield platform, so if you press B on that frame, you become grounded. It doesn't work with a backflip fullhop, only a forward or neutral fullhop.

If you want to practice timing it, you should be pressing B at the exact frame you would input airdodge to receive a perfect waveland.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Could someone link me info regarding Sheik's crouch? I'm looking for ways to implement it more into my game, as I believe it to be an underutilized tool. Stuff like which moves (especially grabs) can Sheik crouch under. I'm wondering whether Sheik could crouch to punish grab attempts as an example.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I have crouched under ganon's grab, though it might be a property of dtilt. Not exactly sure, haven't tested in detail. You can also crouch under some getup attacks, which you need to know and recognize if you are attempting to CC (the timing and punish will be different).

---
In my last post I talked platform cancel needles, and I implied that it only works on battlefield. This isn't true, as I have had it happen on accident on both dreamland and yoshi's during play. More research needs to be done into the exact reasons this happens, but I have no intentions of delving into it.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Some cool innovative Sheik gifs I wanted to share with you, if you have any more I'd be happy to see them

SH Needle Option Coverage (Cp. Faceroll):

Shield Pressure Mixup (Armada):

 

[Lil Bucket Hat]

Can anybody explain the Samus MU as Sheik, Things like what to do in neutral? (what moves to throw out) What does the punish game start from(grabs tilts)? What does edge guarding in this mu look like? (grab ledge wait for tether) How to deal with missiles. I have 2 friends who play this mu and the sheik player is always losing (which pisses me off) so I just want some advice to give him since Idk much about sheik.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Grabs are great against samus because you can get away with even more shielding than in other matchups. If samus does fsmash or dsmash on your shield, you can WD OoS and grab her. If she does jabs or tilts inside your grab range, free shield grab. Just watch out for samus grabbing you. She doesnt get many punishes out of her throw game, but it still gives her advantage. Other things combo too, like ftilt, dtilt and dash attack.

For edge guarding, throw needles and aim for her bombs. Say you've hit her off quite far and she is bomb recovering from the top corner of the blastzone. Stand on the side platform or ground level and charge needles. When samus gets level with you, throw them straight. You should hit her and break whatever bomb she had active. Then she starts her bomb recovery again. At this point, start doing SH needles, again aiming for her bombs. There are tactics samus players can use to avoid these needle edgeguards, such as fast falling and varying bomb jump timings, but at a beginner level needles will wreck samus' recovery.

This GIF isnt the best display of needle edgeguards, but it does show a few different things a samus might try to do to avoid them. There are 4 sections of this clip I will talk about. It starts with samus bomb jumping already. I throw two standing needles: the first to hit him if he doesn't bomb and the 2nd needle for where the 2nd bomb would be for him to bomb jump. Knowing I am doing this, he doesnt do the 2nd bomb and relies on only 1 bomb. He then tries to airdodge and grapple sweetspot, but I am ready with a needle to stuff his grapple attempt. He gets hit off again and some stuff happens. I'm not going to talk about me needling his nair, but that kinda shows what I was talking about in the paragraph above (him at the top corner blastzone, you stand and charge needles then throw horizontally). After that, he does a standard bomb jump and I try to do ledgehop turn around needle. The goal was to either hit his first bomb before it exploded, or to hit the samus around the instant of the bomb jump (which would cancel her boost). He avoided this using the aerial drift bonus that samus' downb gives. Lastly, samus gets sent off after trading her upb with my nair. She is basically at the max length of recovery, she would barely make edge/stage if I did nothing. I throw 3 standing needles one by one. The first one is to stop him from fast falling immediately and recovering low. The 2nd one (which hits) is to hit him before his 2nd bomb, and the 3rd needle is to hit him when the bomb jump would have happened. Sheik's needles have roughly the same cooldown as samus' downb, and in this case she was kind of stuck in a specific spot and needed to bomb jump there, so throwing needles one by one like this almost guarantees that one of the needles will hit.

I recommend your friend just searches and watches top sheik players against samus. KirbyKaze, M2K, Plup and Swedish. I have done a quick search and put together a small list.

M2K vs Plup - Paragon 2015
M2K vs Plup - BotFG
Plup vs Duck - Summit 3
KirbyKaze vs Duck - Sweet Prologue
KirbyKaze vs HugS - Sweet Prologue
Swedish Delight vs Duck - FC Return

 

[TopTierTaite]

In the process of learning Sheik at the moment. I'm not entirely new to Smash, and I'm familiar with techniques like Crouch Cancelling, L-Cancelling, Wavelanding/Wavedashing, DI, etc. It's just that my execution is very raw and inconsistent.
As I stated though, I'm in the process of learning Sheik. I don't have anyone to play IRL, so I'm currently practicing on my CRT/GC setup. I was on Dolphin, but I drop stuff way too much due to using a very old controller with a lot of wear on it and my TV that I have my PC hooked up to's response time is excruciatingly slow. I'm in the process of buying a new monitor and a new controller though.
How should I be practicing atm and what should I be practicing? I've mostly just been practicing my L-canceling, Wavelanding, etc., watching decent-top Sheik players like Hat, Plank, M2K, KirbyKaze, old Ice, etc., and trying to mimic the stuff they do.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Many people have written about improvement. Drastic Improvement by Umbreon is one of the best. This guy was the teacher/mentor to people like M2K, Cactuar and PPMD. He also ran the Melee Back Room for a good amount of time.

Also read Play to Win by David Sirlin. This isn't about smash specifically, but relates to all competitive games. David Sirlin was a top level Street Fighter player in his day, and he became the lead designer for many games including Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix.

For specifically what to practice on your CRT for the character sheik, many top players have written practice regimens. This one is from Laudandus written in the Sheik R&D facebook group. I believe KirbyKaze has written similar things on smashboards. In fact, since I mentioned it, go through the sheik boards from 2009-2012 and read the discussions. KirbyKaze posted very regularly, and thinks about the game on a level similar to PPMD.

If you have a more specific question, feel free to ask here or in the Sheik R&D facebook group.

 

[Sempai]

In the process of learning Sheik at the moment. I'm not entirely new to Smash, and I'm familiar with techniques like Crouch Cancelling, L-Cancelling, Wavelanding/Wavedashing, DI, etc. It's just that my execution is very raw and inconsistent.
As I stated though, I'm in the process of learning Sheik. I don't have anyone to play IRL, so I'm currently practicing on my CRT/GC setup. I was on Dolphin, but I drop stuff way too much due to using a very old controller with a lot of wear on it and my TV that I have my PC hooked up to's response time is excruciatingly slow. I'm in the process of buying a new monitor and a new controller though.
How should I be practicing atm and what should I be practicing? I've mostly just been practicing my L-canceling, Wavelanding, etc., watching decent-top Sheik players like Hat, Plank, M2K, KirbyKaze, old Ice, etc., and trying to mimic the stuff they do.

1. Learn how to abuse platforms to increase your airspeed with WAVELANDING. This is important. Sheik is kinda slow in air, and has very little air mobility.
2. Wavedash out of Shield -->Grab, Tilt, etc. Sheik players need to have a strong and consistent wavedash.
3. Dont force neutral, dont approach with dash attack, PLZ. Instead, zone with fair/bair, needles, try to get them to commit and then punish.

Hope this helps.

 

[DrLobster]

Random frame data question I was thinking about recently.

Let's say that I'm under a platform on Pokemon Stadium, dthrowing Fox. Fox is at a high enough percent so that when he gets popped up, he lands on the platform. His fastest option at this point is tech in place -> shine. My fastest way to get onto the platform (at least, I'm almost positive this is the fastest way) is to no-impact land up with a short hop.

My question is, what's the frame advantage on this situation? Once I NIL, how many more/less frames do I have to act on a Fox that's teching in place and then shining?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Why not just fair/uair him from below the platform? You should be able to do this on reaction. Also, if fox is getting to the platform from your dthrow, he is at least 150%. Just hit him with a KO move.

Now FoD platforms are a little more common for fox to land on after dthrow. But I still prefer staying below the platform and hitting him with a tilt on reaction.

 

[DrLobster]

True. But hitting him with an aerial ends the exchange there, and the only tilt that will hit is the very tip of utilt. Also, if you're hitting them with fair or bair and they're at high percent, they can Amsah tech it pretty easily.

Also lul I was thinking too much about Fox that day. For some reason I got it in my head that he gets that high off of dthrow.

Replace Fox in the original post with Marth/Sheik, or just characters that get up to the Stadium platform at relatively low percentages in general.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If they amsah tech at KO percents, you can react and fair the 2nd tech before their roll animation ends. They cannot tech a third time due to how teching windows works. Actually, they probably cant even amsah tech at all if you hit them out of their tech in place.

For floatier characters, I believe you can waveland and grab the tech in place.

 

[DrLobster]

Every character has invincibility on their tech in place from frames 1-20. Ideally, you want to hit them on frame 21, but characters get out of Sheik's dthrow on frame 39, and the throw itself ends on frame 60, which should mean that they can buffer a tech option around 20 frames before the throw animation ends. Marth's tech roll forward and backward both are the same, with invincibility from frames 1-20. This means that regardless of tech option, if they buffer a tech ASAP, they should satisfy the 40 frame tech cooldown***. They should without a doubt be able to Amsah tech the first one. Worse, they can tech in place and then just slide off to reset to neutral entirely.

***Again, I don't know the specifics of Sheik's dthrow and when you/they can act, so they may not actually be able to act, but it seems pretty likely that they can.


And I'm almost positive that short hop -> NIL is faster than wavelanding.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its a 60 frame tech cooldown. After pressing L/R, you cannot press L/R again to tech for 60 frames. If they press L/R to tech 19 frames before they hit the ground (ideal), then are in the tech animation for 20 frames before they are vulnerable, there are still 20 frames after that where they cannot tech again. If you punish their tech animation, they should never be able to amsah tech that punish.

For the waveland thing, I am not arguing NIL isn't faster. I am simply saying from experience that you can waveland->grab the tech in place option. I didn't pull up frame data or test in debug mode to prove it: I have simply done it in games enough times to say that you should be able to do it. If you want to optimize it with a NIL, then good for you.

 

[DrLobster]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkdPVUlrSOo

^See :36 to 1:08 for visualization of what I'm talking about/going to be talking about.

I think I worded what I was trying to say poorly, so let me explain better.

First off, it's not a 60 frame tech cooldown. It's a 40 frame one.

More importantly, if I press L/R to tech ASAP (i.e. on the first possible frame) and I am not already in a tech cooldown, then the next 19 frames count towards the first 19 frames of the subsequent tech cooldown window, reducing the overall amount of frames I have to wait to 21. The tech cooldown starts when L/R are pressed. Then, every tech option (not counting Pikachu and Pichu) is invincible from 1-20. This means there's 20 frames where I'm invincible and can't be hit that still obviously count for the 40 frame cooldown window, leaving me with 1 frame where I can't tech and am vulnerable. I should be able to Amsah tech with only 1 frame of untechability.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

The sheik boards are hella dead but I was wondering at what percent the cg starts on Link on different DIs. Anyone able to help a guy out?

 

[Sempai]

TLDR: Forever if he DIs away. In all honestly tho thats for most characters.

If you have 20XX you should be able to get a good idea from testing with the bot for a couple mins.

 

[Super4ng]

Question: can fox true combo sheik with waveshines? And when getting waveshine, what are your best options?
I also have trouble with fox dtilt if anyone has suggestions there as well.

 

[DrLobster]

Question: can fox true combo sheik with waveshines? And when getting waveshine, what are your best options?
I also have trouble with fox dtilt if anyone has suggestions there as well.

Hey man! Unfortunately, Fox's waveshine on Sheik is true. Basically, all you can do is hard double-stick smash DI away to make it harder for him to get the next shine.

As for Fox dtilt, the best option is spacing aerials, or WDing back and punishing it with a boost grab, or even doing a quick dash dance grab to cover it. Do you think you have a problem with CC dtilt, or just dtilt in general?

 

[Super4ng]

I just feel like moves that pop Sheik into the air are really good for the opponent especially in the fox matchup. Leads to up smash/utilt/uair which are all really hard to deal with when trying to land.

I think I have a good grasp on dealing with CC, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is best to deal with using needles, spaced fair, or strong nair, or spaced bair (but it seems you cant really get anything off this if it connects)

waveshine just seems really brutal since sheiks recovery is so exploitable

 

[DrLobster]

Yeah, you're pretty much hitting the nail on the head here. Coming down as Sheik is hard against many characters, since we don't really have a lot of good tools to come down with.

And those are all good things to deal with CC. I would also recommend really focusing on when your opponent goes for CC dtilt and punishing them for it, because a lot of the time Foxes are just spamming CC dtilt at low percents, which means you can take advantage of their linearity.

 

[FlockOfFlames]

What are the general guidelines against aggro spacies ? I struggle to reset position and when i do it usually doesn't last long cause they either sneak below or nearly enough so that their aerials win against the ftilt/fair/bair walling.

If I try to back up i get easily cornered and if i try to aggro i usually do it with a dash attack or boost grab but their short hop beats that (in the sense that it's not even a RPS situation they would've short hopped towards me anyway and it avoids dash attack)

 

[KarkemX]

What are the general guidelines against aggro spacies ? I struggle to reset position and when i do it usually doesn't last long cause they either sneak below or nearly enough so that their aerials win against the ftilt/fair/bair walling.

If I try to back up i get easily cornered and if i try to aggro i usually do it with a dash attack or boost grab but their short hop beats that (in the sense that it's not even a RPS situation they would've short hopped towards me anyway and it avoids dash attack)

I usually play defensively, by using tilts (they can't crouch cancel in the air), or shielding (*side note for the most part fox d-air on shield can be shield grabbed) or even buffer rolling away can be useful. (they can read your rolls though so make sure to switch up timing + direction)

 

[KarkemX]

The sheik boards are hella dead but I was wondering at what percent the cg starts on Link on different DIs. Anyone able to help a guy out?

I usually just cg until I know I can knock him offstage and then edge guard him, as it's pretty easy to do (I approach it like I'm edge guarding a discount Samus), theoretically you could cg him till that specific percent and then f-air him but I feel like that would be a really niche thing about a match up that already seems pretty good for sheik as is.

 

[br0kencacophany]

Inspired by Cactuar/Emblem Lord/Silent Wolf/Cort/Mango/Members who decided to create Q&A threads.

I'm just making this because there isn't one for the sheik boards and every character seems to have one nowadays. ^_^

Basically ask common sheik questions here so repetitive threads won't be made over and over. I or hopefully other knowledgeable sheik players can answer your question whatever it is. Discussions about Sheik are also welcome.

Here are some quick things I know are somewhat frequent questions so I'll post them here. I'll put other important things on the first page too, like match up guides, frame data, Advanced Sheik techs, etc.

Sheik's Up-b Ledgestall/Shino Stall

When you're on the edge of the stage press down to get off the ledge then quickly up-b. You should move a little upwards, while this is going on hold down. Once you hear the noise for her explosion let go of the control stick. Sheik should move down and grab the ledge you can repeat till whenever you feel like stopping.

Turning into Sheik in the beginning of the game

To turn into sheik at the beginning of the battle pick zelda and during the stage selection hold A until the game starts.

Reverse Needle Canceling

When you begin to your jump tap the opposite direction you are facing. Then press and hold B while you are in the charge animation press L/R to cancel your charge. You don't have to hold B once you press L/R.

Sheik's Edge-canceled Vanish

To perform this, you start by running toward an edge. As you are about to enter the teetering animation perform her up-b. Sheik will enter a "fake" vanish then drift off the edge due to the momentum of running. Then you can aim the "real" vanish to wherever you choose.

Chain grabbable characters (Using D-throw)

Sheik
Marth (Only works if Marth DIs away from you, however you get a guaranteed re-grab if you CG at 0)
Bowser
Game and Watch
Ganondorf
Link
Pichu
Mewtwo (If he DI away from you)
Ness
Pikachu
Roy
Yoshi

Frame/Percent data

Jab/Needle Reset Percents

General Sheik Frame Data

Sheik's Frame data (More in depth)

Video demonstration on Sheik's Moveset

Tafokints's Guide to Sheik's F-smash

Shiek's Hitbox and Frame Data

Character Matchup Guides

Sheik vs Fox and Falco (Drephen)

Sheik vs Marth (Drephen)

Sheik vs Marth (KirbyKaze)

More of Sheik vs Marth (KirbyKaze)

Sheik vs Fox (Vanz)

Sheik vs Peach (Teczero)

Sheik vs Jigglypuff (Teczero)

Sheik vs Captian Falcon (A lot of us)

Sheik Dittos (NeighborhoodP)

Brickman's Matchup Guide

Other Useful Threads

Shortening/Reversing your Up-b

Sheik's Wavedash vs Fox Trot

Plairnkk's Guide to Playing Sheik

Shield Pressure Frames

KirbyKaze's Guide to be at least as good as Demo Kirby

KirbyKaze's Match up thread!

Magus's Sexy list of techs,throws and getup data

Seanson's Hitbox System

By Sheiks Edge Cancelled Vanish you mean "Vanish Gliding" right?