Meta Sheik's New Matchup Discussion Thread: Rosalina & Luma

[Joaco]

The most important things in this matchup are killing Luma and mantaining stage control. Killing Luma opens up new combo possibilities, allows us to kill Rosalina easier and takes away a lot of damage output, range and killpower from Rosalina. If Luma is alive don't try to do combos like fthrow to Bouncing Fish or dthrow to uair at high percents, because Luma should interrupt you every time and can kill you if you are at high % or make you lose your mometum. Also if you land a grab on Rosa you should throw her ASAP if Luma is close, because Luma can hit you while you are grabbing her. Luma can interrupt our uairs and hit while Rosalina is falling helpless, watch out for that. Last but not least, Luma makes it harder for us to camp with needles because it will take the hit instead of Rosa if she's behind Luma, but we still can cover landings with them, hit Rosalina in certain animations, like when she's running or walking, and rack damage on Luma as she take damage even if Rosalina is sheilding (it starts receiving knockback from fair at like 12% and has 50HP). Luma allows Rosalina to kill us a lot earlier, for example an usmash with Luma can kill us in 90% and without Luma Rosa can't kill us until 120%, so if we get rid of her we should survive longer. The ideal way of killing Luma is with a fair string, the less optimal way to kill it is by racking enough damage. A gimmicky way to kill Luma is by running to the ledge and doing a vanish while Rosa is hanging, she won't get hit because of the invincibility but Luma will get knocked away.

The best place for Rosalina to be is in the center of the stage, so we should do everything possible to get her out of there. The place we want her to be is offstage, we should achieve this mostly with out fair strings. Her recovery covers a lot of space, but lacks a hitbox, so we have no reason why not to go offstage to edgeguard her. Also when she is close to the edge we can apply her a lot of pressure and rack a lot of damage to her. A lot of Rosas like to double uair while recovering so watch out for that. If we stage spike her and she techs she can recover easily so we should try instead to fair her to the blast zone instead of spiking her if we notice the Rosa knows how to tech our edgeguards.

The stages I like to go against Rosalina are Lylat Cruise and Castle Siege. Lylat Cruise is a good stage for Rosa in general (in my opinion) but the stage tilting helps our edgeguarding a lot, opens up new possibilities for kill setups (like d-tilt at the edge to u-air, kills like 120-130% depending on rage) and we can tipper u-smash them if they are on a platform and kill like in 90%. Castle Siege is great for us in every transformation, the first is small so we can throw Rosa and Luma offstage easier, the second one allows us to kill with f-air strings off the walkoffs and the third is the same as Lylat.
The best stages for Rosa in this matchup are Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Town and City and Dream Land. Rosa can kill us pretty early in Halberd because of the low ceiling and we can't take advantage from the shape of the stage. Delfino is great against Sheik, in the transformations I died as early as 0% with an u-air near the top and Sheik can't benefit at all in the transformations (maybe except the one with the parasols). In both of this stages we can't stage spike Rosa and we can't Bouncing Fish into the stage, so our edgeguarding game becomes worse. Town and City and Dream Land are similar in a way that both have a lower than normal ceiling and, if the Rosa uses the platforms correctly, she can kill pretty early with an u-smash or u-air, even without Luma, but the same can be said about Sheik. If we can grab Rosalina (without Luma) in a high platform or in Halberd at like 90% is almost a guaranteed kill.
One of my friends like Duck Hunt but I find it really good for Sheik, maybe the best stage against Rosa after Castle Siege and Lylat. The tree and the bush helps our edgeguarding game if Rosa tries to recover high, and we can cling to the walls if they try to recover low. I don't find good things about the stage for Rosa maybe except for the left tree that can aid them going higher for an u-air.
I find Final Destination, Battlefield and Smashville to be slightly in our favor, as both characters can benefit from these stages but I think that Sheik does better in those.

Some basic tips vs Rosa by ZeRo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhiJmFjzItw
Match breakdown by falln: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-ObxSRYvvA
From Rosalina's perspective: http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-match-up-analysis-r2-sheik.408233/
Please don't put ratios or scores, they don't help us to win the matchup. Every input about playing the matchup is welcome.

 

[Ascen]

I also prefer Battlefield in this matchup alongside those two stages, because I can pressure Rosalina into shielding on the platforms, which leaves Luma open. During E2C 16 pools, I counterpicked Fumbles to Battefield, who placed 9th at the tournament, and I nearly took a game off of him. This is only my personal experience, though.

 

[Shado]

A big part of this match up will be edge guarding Rosalina. She's a floaty character so she has the potential to weave away if we read an air dodge similar to Ness. Once you start hitting Rosalina with Fair DO NOT STOP. The best place for Rosalina to be for us will be off stage, at low percents Fair -> Ftilt -> Fair -> PP Ftilt Fair will most likely knock her off stage to set up for edge guards. Once Rosalina is off stage is when things get a bit easier. If the Rosalina still has their jump be careful because they tend to use a rising Uair which can hit you while you're standing by the ledge to allow them to recover safely, and to avoid that simply shielding or going to the ledge while the hitbox is starting so you get your invincibility frames while the Uair is still active. Edge guarding Rosalina can be a bit tricky. A common way to attempt to edge guard anyone is simply running of and using Bair if they're riding the stage or recovering vertically along the stage, however this is dangerous against Rosalina due to her ability to use her Dair which extends pretty far and either spiking you or if luma is active killing you. Due to my poor timing of Bair if the Rosalina is not recovering along the stage I tend to use Nair and Fair to keep her away from the stage. A simple way to do this is to either run off and nair or Fair, Hold the ledge and Nair, or run off and rising nair to try and get back to the stage. Nair has quite a bit of end lag so it might not work for constant off stage pressure, but if you want to just make sure Rosalina isn't getting back to the stage right away Nair is a great option due to its prolonged hit box and large space. Along side with going off stage Ledge trumps are very useful against every character. Ledge trump Bair always works and baiting options at the ledge can set up for punishes. And if the Rosalina is recovering toward the stage in a diagonal angle needles to bouncing fish is always an option, needles to fair works as well in some situations. Luma is another annoying part of this match up. However allow me to repeat, once you start fairing Rosalina DO NOT STOP. If you manage to catch Luma in this fair string as well its fairly easy to knock Luma off the stage, even if Rosalina falls out continuing to Fair just Luma is extremely beneficial. A well timed Vanish at the ledge can spike Luma off of it at any percent of Luma's health, but if you time it wrong and the Rosalina can punish with an Up smash using both Rosalina and Luma dealing huge damage and knockback. This MU boils down to getting rid of Luma, Making optimal punishes, off stage pressure, and of course patience.

*Fair is your best friend in this MU, its fast, not easy to punish, and effectively sets up for edge guards
*If going off stage isn't your thing simply applying some type of ledge pressure works as well, just doing something to promote an option is effective against Rosaluma
*Dtilt at the ledge could catch her in her recovery or hit the 1 frame punish but going off stage is much more reliable

Here's a video of me fighting a Rosalina in tourney. I didn't play the match up how I should have but its a basic idea of how it should be played. I wasn't applying as much off stage pressure as I should have and went for Bouncing Fishes and other attacks in terrible situations but alas https://youtu.be/d3fjzBWokM8?t=1h34m52s

 

[Shado]

And as far as stages go I prefer to stay away from anywhere where I can die early, So my bans are usually Town and City and Delfino. Sadly I can't get rid of Halberd as well

 

[Illuminose]

I like the bouncing fish -> stage edgeguard in this matchup. It's flexible and can catch most diagonal angles of Rosalina's recovery. Shado is definitely right that we have to edgeguard in this matchup. I'm a bit more confident in reacting and timing the back air so I'll use that to knock Rosalina away. Aerial needles are good if you're on the stage.

Something you have to know is that you can roll out of the Rosaluma jab shield pressure. This is important because getting hit by Rosalina's jab is really bad for Sheik (she's a fast faller). In general, this is a matchup where you really have to watch your movement and spacing. Make sure any empty hops, rolls, whatever are out of Luma's range. The last thing you want is to get jabbed out of normal movement. Be extra careful with fair spacing. I tend to focus a lot on patience and landing grabs in this matchup as opposed to spacing fairs on Rosalina's shield. Sometimes I'll do a full hop fair or just make sure I'm retreating (if I don't have the proper spacing to make fair safe with Luma in mind) to be safer because Luma's range is a pain to deal with. Never try to land on top of Rosalina. Don't air dodge -- jump away/bouncing fish and reset to neutral. Your goal should be fairing Luma off and punishing Rosa. You can convert that into an off-stage potential edgeguard/punish and stage control.

If Rosalina tries to do Luma edgeguard trap shenanigans next to the ledge, just get to the ledge and get onto the stage with your invincibility. You have no vulnerability frames upon snapping to the ledge if you vanish from an angle diagonally above the ledge so doing that is optimal if you can get the positioning. I like jump back -> bouncing fish punish to land on stage depending on where Rosalina sets up the ledge trap.

Needles are ok in this matchup. You just have to try and catch Rosalina from behind or take advantage of instances where Luma isn't actually meatshielding Rosalina due to slight positional differences (take into account the trajectory of needles and Luma's position). Hitting Luma with needles isn't necessarily bad but it's not enough damage to waste a full set of needles on for no percent on Rosalina herself.

Do NOT try to punish down smash. Her other smashes have less lag than you think as well. You may be to get a bouncing fish if you react, but only if she just throws out a smash. If you are not in a position to do a reactionary punish immediately, do not touch her after her smashes. Also don't do roll behind at high percent, it's just gonna get you killed ._.

As for stages, I'd prioritize getting rid of Halberd and then either Delfino or Town & City. In a 7 stage list with one ban, T&C for sure. Smashville is fine but I'd rather try for Battlefield or FD. This is a character to pick higher ceilings against. Lylat is whatever, too much stage and not enough off-stage on Duck Hunt and the tree only benefits Rosalina. The reason I like FD is that there's room but you can still get Rosa off-stage.

I think the matchup is, all said, probably 55:45 Sheik favor or maybe closer to even if you add it up. Rosa can do some nasty stuff to Sheik. Her jab punishes misspacing hard, and she can even make it difficult for Sheik to land especially if she starts reading how you escape her juggles and eliminates your options. Her kill power compared to Sheik's is really a large differential. That said, Rosalina's figure makes her very susceptible to standard Sheik combos. You can punish Rosalina hard off-stage. It can be hard for her to regain stage control if you get her out of it and manage to maintain positioning. Patience and capitalizing are the two keys to succeeding in this matchup.

 

[ShadowKing]

After killing Luma you should try to get a few f airs and a bouncing fish in so you can get the free damage

 

[_Tree]

Apologies if this write-up is a little rough. I already wrote all of this before but it got deleted, so I'm probably gonna be a bit lazy.

Rosalina

Ok, so in neutral Rosa will mainly rely on two tools: Jab (1-2-3) and N-air. Thankfully, our crouch will duck under Jab completely and most of N-air, so remember to use those to nullify her most important neutral tools. The opponent will probably catch onto this and start using Side-B or D-tilt. This is where you switch to F-air and separate her from Luma.

If she manages to get you in the air, jump away. DO NOT try to challenge her U-air. I died at 19% to that thing on Town and City. It is extremely powerful and something you don't want to mess with.
F-air will often be fast-falled into the ground to lead into other combos, so remember to tech roll away. D-air is ridiculous and will be used to intercept you when coming back to the stage. Don't always come straight back into the stage. Fade back sometimes and then recover, to mixup your movement.

The Rosalina MU is all about getting rid of that Luma, though which is something you really need to do:

Getting rid of Luma
Well-spaced Dash attack: Dash attack will send Luma into tumble. Pretty simple. However, Dash attack is almost universally a risky option, so this needs method requires a bit more finesse. You need to space the dash attack well enough so that it hits Luma, but doesn't come into contact with Rosa's shield. This also requires a good read on how the opponent moves. If Rosa is jumping all over the place, it's probably not a good choice. Watch your opponent's movement and make the move when the opportunity arises.

B-throw > Side-smash: If you manage to get a grab on Rosa, Back throw her and immediately side-smash luma. This will send Luma pretty far as well as sending it into tumble. This should be your number 1 grab option if Rosa still has Luma. It's tempting to go for a d-throw combo or F-throw > BF, but that Luma is your biggest problem when fighting this character.

F-air: Proving itself to be the all-in-one aerial yet again, F-air will send luma into tumble, but only after it's gained a certain amount of percent (roughly two F-air's worth). F-air strings are what you should use to hit luma off-stage. It's a simple order, but do everything in your power to execute it.

Now for a little PSA...KILL THAT DAMN LUMA. Make it your purpose, your mission, your modus operandi. DO IT. Glue a picture of that cancerous yellow blob to your ceiling above your bed, so that you're reminded every single day when you wake up to kill that damn thing. I have seen so many Sheiks lose this MU because they become too tempted by the permanent damage on Rosa to aim for Luma. Killing Luma makes this MU so ridiculously in our favour that you'd be stupid not to. This character should be called Luma and Rosalina, because without that little bottom-feeder Rosa is so much worse. Just do it. Kill Luma. I don't care if your tag is 'RosalinaKiller547'. I want you to act like Rosalina isn't even there if Luma is still alive.

Edge-guarding Rosalina

Ahem...So any, edge-guarding is something that needs to practiced to a T, because her recovery is so easily intercepted. It has no hitbox and a predictable arc. There are generally two positions off stage that Rosa will use this recovery, which are as follows (I'll upload images when I get them done):

Offstage, but along the same height as the stage floor - 1

Deep offstage, generally the bottom right/left of the screen (anything lower than the former point) - 2

1 - For the first point, Rosa will either go up above you in a high arc, or close to the ground in a straight-forward arc to land roughly in the middle of the stage. The first arc will generally only be done when there are platforms for her to land on, so an extra consideration needs to made when fighting on stages like Battlefield. The second is a popular option, and is straight-forward to punish. The best option for both of these is simply to remain in neutral stance. That way you can react to whichever arc she chooses and punish accordingly, typically with U-air and Dash-attack accordingly. If you can read her arcs, things get a bit more interesting. If you know she's going up-above, you can catch her at the height of her arc with an U-air and get a kill. If you read her going directly on-stage, you can prepare an F-smash for when she meets you.

2 - Harder to judge the arc here, as the general patterns increases from 2 to 4: Rosa will either Up-B into the wall and slide up to the ledge, Up-B directly to the ledge, Up-b just above the ledge and onto the stage, or Up-B high above the ledge and onto the stage. The first option is punishable with stuff like B-air and F-air if read properly. Something I like to do is drop down and Up-B back up, leaving a Vanish explosion 'trap'. The second of her options is predictable, but also very good due to the ledge mechanics in this game. If you know she's shooting straight for the ledge it's a free punish. The third option will hamper you if you have a habit of running offstage to edge-guard. While you run off-stage, she gets back on, so be wary of that. The fourth option is a similar deal.

Generally, for the first two, you just need to make the right read, or let her get the ledge and read her getup. For the last two, you want to remain in neutral stance again and react.

The key with her recovery (and with all recoveries in-fact), is to keep a memory bank. Hit her offstage, and observe what kind of recovery arc she uses. Do it again, and observe again. If she mixes things up, this process may take longer. If she chooses the same option the second time, however, you'd be pretty justified in thinking that she'd choose it again the third. That's where you make the read. Better players will obviously have more complex patterns, but that's the kind of thing you need to adapt to.

Combo information

F-throw > Bouncing Fish
- DI away/No DI: 0-30%
- DI up and in: None

D-tilt > U-air Kill combos (Projected DI) (projected DI = Percentage the character dies at, even if they DI)
- D-tilt > U-air: 96% (105%)
- Double jab > D-tilt > U-air: 92% (101%)
- D-tilt opponent hanging on ledge > U-air: 105% (114%)
- D-tilt > Vanish: 93%

Weak N-air > Bouncing Fish
- DI away starting percentage: 80%
- DI away ending percentage: 100%
Ending percentage increases when hitting weak N-air much lower than Rosa's standing height.

F-tilt > F-tilt: 15% (Starting percent)

F-tilt > Shorthopped F-air: 29% (Starting percent)

F-tilt > U-smash: 35% - 50%

I have lots of kill percents for the character but they'd take up a lot of thread room and I don't just want to data dump. If people think they'd be helpful I'll post them however. I'll probably edit more stuff into this thread later but this is it for now.

 

[gsmVoiD]

When you kill luma, you can do repeated reps of jab 1 > jab 2 for about 3 times depending on how close you are to Rosa. What makes this safe is that you're barely committing to a move and if the Solo Rosa is hiding in Shield it makes this free %. It doesn't make you over commit and Rosa doesn't have an aerial fast enough to combat this + airdodging into the ground is a bad option.

A lot of people don't really abuse needles in this matchup to where it can be used effectively. Needles are essentially free damage onto Luma, which will make your fair send luma farther & into tumble with less moves connecting. Obviously it can still be GP'd but that doesn't make it a bad option.

 

[Joaco]

Excellent input Tree (and excellent timing too )! If you have a bunch of data you can post it in a spoiler so it doesn't break the thread.

 

[Demna]

I promised valuable information about this MU a while ago but couldn't write it in time because it was near impossible to focus on a well-written post over at Sky's house. I'm back home now, so here it is:

Dealing with Luma:
1- As Rosalina recovers, you can intercept her recovery with a grenade. The initial hit should be aimed at Rosalina (nade bumps into her), as Rosalina grabs onto the ledge after the initial nade hit, the grenade will then detonate and kill Luma even if it had full HP. Sheik's SideB is a great move to get rid of Luma as Rosalina recovers and in general. (Credits should also be given to Mr.R as we both found out about it in friendlies)

2- When Rosalina is trying to cover your ledge options (usually positioning herself in the ledge-roll area and positioning Luma in the regular getup area), you can ledge hop and Upb, the Vanish will hit Luma and kill her. Ideally, you want to use the advanced Vanish snap method for maximum safety:
[collapse="How to perform it"]

[/collapse]
You can also Vanish back on stage to disallow Rosalina the chance to cover your ledge option, or you can pop up on Rosalina to hit her with the second hitbox of Vanish. However, you should use those two only as a mixup to gain stage control and/or damage on Rosalina after you condition her to ledgetrump by snapping back to the edge. I recommend going for the Vanish edge-snap tech most of the time.

3- We all know that a viable method of killing Luma is to Fair string it across the stage until it falls offstage. However, in specific scenarios when you get near the ledge, you can Upair Luma instead of Fairing it to maximize the time of her tumble animation before dying, this method should increase the Luma respawn timer by a second or two (We can get a good amount of damage during those 1-2 seconds, potentially even a kill on Rosalina)

4- When Luma Dairs your shield, it pops up a bit afterwards, you can tipper Upsmash Luma OoS and kill her with Fair (Upair preferably if near the ledge)

5- You can use Luma as a Bouncing Fish platform to aim for Rosalina.

[collapse="Examples on the notes above"]

@06:45 - Used Info #2 to instantly kill Luma with Vanish
@08:05 - Notice how I used Info #4 to pop up Luma with a tipper Upsmash OoS and then used Info #3 to maximize Luma's respawn timer with an Upair.
@09:08 - Using Info #5 as an attempt to edgeguard Rosalina.[/collapse]

Dealing with Rosalina:
1- Rosa will either aim for the ledge or the stage as she recovers:

A- If she aims for the ledge, you can drop down and get back up with a rising Nair/Bair to intercept her recovery. This is much better than drop down B-air because at high level the Rosalina will tech it and you will lose stage control afterwards.

B- If she aims for the stage, you can ledge-hop back and intercept her landing with a BF or a DA. However, if you can predict her landing, you can get a guarnteed tipper Upsmash. Rosalina will face enough landing lag for tipper Upsmash to connect, but be sure to wait until Rosalina rises up a bit, or else the Upsmash won't tipper.

COVERING MOST OF HER RECOVERY OPTIONS:
As Rosalina recovers, drop down and UpB immediately (You want the Vanish to be positioned directly above the ledge). If Rosalina aimed for the stage, the UpB will connect, wracking damage onto Rosalina and killing Luma (potentially Rosalina too). If she aimed for the ledge, you can snap back to the ledge after the Vanish and ledgetrump>Bair Rosa for it. If she aims too high, you can react by going back to the stage and following the advice on Info #2.

You can perfectly space it as well and have the Vanish attack cover both the ledge and above the ledge, you can retreat onto the stage after it, you can also snap back to the ledge but the timing is strict.

2- Punishing Rosalina with tipper Upsmash:

A- After you shield a Rosalina Upsmash (Note: Rosalina's Upsmash and not Luma's), you can guarantee a running tipper Upsmash

B- If you read Rosa's roll, you an punish it with a tipper Upsmash

C- You can punish her landing UpN with a tipper Upsmash

Tipper Upsmash is a great way to kill Rosalina (Kills around 85%-110% - depending on rage/stage), and a good way to wrack up damage on Rosalina (use it when Luma is alive, if not, you should aim for better punishes depending on Rosa's %). Note that Rosalina is tall enough for the tipper Upsmash to connect while she isn't occupied with any sort of command.

Stages:

Strike to -
Battlefield or Smashville
Strike Dreamland and Town&City

Go to -
Lylat Cruise: Rosalina can't slide on the stage as it has no walls, so her recovery becomes much more linear, making edgeguarding easier.

Castle Siege: A general great CP stage for Sheik, 1st transformation has 2 seperate platforms for us to use mixups if we're under Rosa (Uptilt, Tipper Upsmash, Vanish, landing tomahawks, etc), also since the left side is lower than the right side, we can crouch under Luma (assuming Rosa's on the right side and sends Luma from there). Fair strings kills at the 2nd transformation. As for the 3rd transformation, because it tilts, you can crouch under Luma and potentially approach Rosa with ease. Don't always approach though, mix it up by retreating, fading in and fading out, and BF. (Same applies with Lylat if it tilts)

If those two were bann, I advice CPing Battlefield. If you can't access BF because of DSR, Smashville will suffice.

Bann -

Halberd: Upsmash/Upair kills us at ridiculous percentages, I once died from an Upair at 30~ish percent.

Delfino Plaza: Not only does Rosa kill us at very low percentages when the stage is transforming, but in specific phases, It will take much more effort to kill Luma since these phases are walk-offs with no offstage presence. Luma survives for the longest on this stage than any other, and since our optimal goal is get rid of Luma, this stage should also be banned,

I recommend banning those two since it causes us the most trouble in my opinion, Town&City is also a choice but I highly advise banning Halberd and Delfino Plaza instead.

These are all the tips/secrets I can provide for now, more to come for other MUs.
Reserved.

 

[Joaco]

Added match breakdown by falln. Also thanks @ Demna for your input!

 

[Harlow]

Awesome info in here, guys. Thanks to all of you. Been struggling with what I think is the best Rosalina in my state and was wanting to learn the matchup well, because Rosalina truly makes me miserable. Will try to apply it.

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

You must really hate luma, Tree. Like, with a fiery burning passion from the very pits of Hell itself.

 

[ArikadoSD]

You must really hate luma, Tree. Like, with a fiery burning passion from the very pits of Hell itself.

Don't we all tho

 

[Joaco]

We can win the match up depending on if we can kill Luma or not.

 

[Danimal197]

I think the matchup is pretty heavily in sheik's favor. We have all the tools necessary to win the MU.

Fair strings can take luma offstage easily, dash attack will put luma into tumble at 0. Usmash will tipper a standing rosalina.

Example of a more aggressive, ignore luma way of winning the mu. https://youtu.be/e0vnyVaT6q8
video by a rosalina player: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-ObxSRYvvA

 

[ArikadoSD]

So I think I finally got a grasp on this MU after all this time.

First of all, fair and dash attack are the two best tools to get rid of luma. After a couple hits of fair luma should have enough % to where fair actually does knockback on it so there's that, and dash attack is a good and quick option to get rid of Luma but you could eat a small punish by rosalina sometimes.

BF FD and Duck Hunt are the three best stages for the matchup, and I guess Lylat too. I'd never take Rosalina to T&C or Dream Land and I heavily dislike SV in this mu because the platform can interfere and save Luma a lot.

I also find that recovering high is always the best option to avoid all of Rosalina's broken edgeguards. Using Vanish above stage level and then grabbing the ledge removes the 2 frame vulnerability thing which could be big, and it also bypasses that thing when Rosalina gets Luma just under the ledge and keeps jabbing.

Just a few pointers in the mu.