Should Sm4sh dive into implementing equipment?

[BlueFlameIke]

First, take a look at this:
http://smashboards.com/threads/smooth-lander-and-heavy-gravity-slhg-update-online.383506/

I have tried this so called SHLG and did not actually like playing it. If you want more details on why I did not enjoy it, then feel free to ask. But now on to the main point of this post.

If the Sm4sh community is attempting to implement equipment, I believe that we should opt to give equipment to characters that are mid and lower tier so that they are better suited to face the higher tier characters. Equipment does not need to be huge bonuses (+100 or 1.5x blah blah blah) but more like +5 speed/- 5 attack for example. Or perhaps Little Mac can have a piece that gives him a power boost when using aerials or something like improved jump height. The point of the equipment is to give those small improvements that would make a difference for the fighter but also keeping it balanced and not overpowered.

We can use this thread to throw ideas back and forth if people are interested in balancing the game and not opting for Sakurai's lack of interest in competitive play. Make sure to keep the character posts as simple as possible with their stat changes; something like this:
Ike (+1 equip)
-5 attack
0 defense
+5 speed

or

Little Mac (+1 equip)
1.3x jump height (equipment name would go here)
-5 attack
0 defense
0 speed

I would say that high tier characters do not need equipment because the pro smashers have proven that they can compete at the top level, (Diddy Kong, Sheik, RosaLuma, etc). Most of these characters I would consider from B to S list. Of course if you wish to add your minor improvements to these characters, feel free to post your opinion.

Make sure to post the name of the equipment please. Thanks and I hope this thread develops into something interesting and worthwhile.

FMNT|Had0uken!

P.S. Yes, customs should also be considered based on the current legal set at the time (so EVO for example). I would like to also balance customs out, but might have to wait till EVO to do that.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Discretionary implementation of equipment would just make the playerbase look downright terrible.

"You know what, these are characters we PERCEIVE to be bad, so only they get to use this."

Not to mention that we are leagues away from even implementing equipment at all. Considering WHO gets to use it is bad enough, but trying to jump the gun and the cannon too is just

I dunno, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I think we should be striving for a metagame that is both balanced AND fair. This is why right now the prevalent mood is allowing customs for all characters, and not just those we decide need them the most (and even then, those same characters are getting arguments calling for their customs to get banned, lmao).

Not to mention that MOST characters with flaws have those flaws for balance reasons. Little Mac has bad air game because he has dominating ground game. Unless it was some sort of tradeoff like losing/weakening super armour on his smashes or having all of his attacks come out 3F later, I can't see anything justifying giving him decent aerials. And anyway, at that point you're not even playing Little Mac anymore. You've changed him fundamentally, and now you're playing a character that looks like Little Mac, and has similar attacks to Little Mac, but isn't really Little Mac.

 

[kinbobbobkin]

The thing is too find the right equipment that won't make the character too overpower or unfair, which would lead to negative results.

I like the Leaper Agility Badge and Shield Reflector Agility, especially the Leaper Agility Badge since it can help characters with poor recovery moves.

As for the smooth lander equipment, I still haven't found it yet.

 

[Purple_Anteater]

I would like to see equipment implemented in a different way.

I've noticed amiibo tournaments. So why not equipment tournaments? Its basically the same deal, only more fun because you actually get to play as your overpowered character.

Everyone brings their own custom set on a 3ds and uploads it to a wii U, or the tourney could even be held on 3ds. This could be a fun and potentially hilarious way of playing smash 4. Imbalanced? Yes, but it would be a sort of imperfect balance, because every character has the potential to be ridiculously OP. Competitive? Also yes. You still need the technical skill to pull off whatever absurd stuff you're planning on doing with your build. Plus you need to know how to build said OP character in the first place.

I see it being similar to competitive pokemon. I think it could have a lot of potential. The metagame would revolve around certain builds for characters, and counters for those builds.

 

[BlueFlameIke]

"You know what, these are characters we PERCEIVE to be bad, so only they get to use this."

I dunno, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I think we should be striving for a metagame that is both balanced AND fair. This is why right now the prevalent mood is allowing customs for all characters, and not just those we decide need them the most (and even then, those same characters are getting arguments calling for their customs to get banned, lmao).

Not to mention that MOST characters with flaws have those flaws for balance reasons. Little Mac has bad air game because he has dominating ground game. Unless it was some sort of tradeoff like losing/weakening super armour on his smashes or having all of his attacks come out 3F later, I can't see anything justifying giving him decent aerials. And anyway, at that point you're not even playing Little Mac anymore. You've changed him fundamentally, and now you're playing a character that looks like Little Mac, and has similar attacks to Little Mac, but isn't really Little Mac.

• Um well its open to any character, so even Sheik can gain a small launch/atk boost. Just that lower tiers need the boost more.
• Yes customs still unbalanced but were messing around with them, might have to wait till EVO to see what occurs
• The game is not balanced at all though cause Sakurai never had intentions to balance it for the communities standard of competitive play, especially customs. I agree that Little Mac may not need aerials, the aerials were just an example. Counterpick stages hinder Little Mac a lot
  
  Is it not the community that decided to discretionarily implement customs?
  
  You brought up good points though, I see way you want to stay away from equipment.

 

[BlueFlameIke]

I would like to see equipment implemented in a different way.

I see it being similar to competitive pokemon. I think it could have a lot of potential. The metagame would revolve around certain builds for characters, and counters for those builds.

But Pokemon are not op and have maximums to their EVs and IVs, (plus IVs are really random and hard to breed the required IVs.)
Single battles would not be balanced or fair, that is why there are double battles; and even then there are some bans on moves.

But you are right on the point of similarity because of how the player decides how to build their pokemon.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

But Pokemon are not op and have maximums to their EVs and IVs, (plus IVs are really random and hard to breed the required IVs.)
Single battles would not be balanced or fair, that is why there are double battles; and even then there are some bans on moves.

But you are right on the point of similarity because of how the player decides how to build their pokemon.

What?

Competitive battling in pokemon is very balanced and reasonably fair. Maxed IVs are no longer random at all due to changes in game mechanics that Game Freak did to facilitate the competitive scene. Sakurai might want to follow their example.

Equipment's problem right now isn't that it increases diversity too much (Pokemon shows how ridiculous that notion is) or that it introduces overpowered builds (again, following a system similar to Smogon's ban system would work fine), it's that equipment is too random and impossible to standardize. Unless Sakurai does the obvious thing and makes equipment purchasable for gold in the shop, or some other way of getting the best possible equipment without hundreds of hours of grinding, there won't be a competitive meta game around equipment.

 

[BlueFlameIke]

What?

Equipment's problem right now isn't that it increases diversity too much (Pokemon shows how ridiculous that notion is) or that it introduces overpowered builds (again, following a system similar to Smogon's ban system would work fine), it's that equipment is too random and impossible to standardize. Unless Sakurai does the obvious thing and makes equipment purchasable for gold in the shop, or some other way of getting the best possible equipment without hundreds of hours of grinding, there won't be a competitive meta game around equipment.

That is a good point its already difficult to grind for customs. Equipment can be standardized though as long as people work together in bringing standardized customs.

Though I know it would be very difficult because of how divide the community is.

 

[AnchorTea]

Can we not talk about the evil and dreaded Smogon?

Look, the only equipment that is somewhat worth consideration is smooth lander, that's about it. While using Smooth Lander for locals is fine, but for official tournaments? That's not gonna happen. Sorry.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I see three issues:

1. Grinding. It'll take forever, and builds won't be standard.

2. If we attempt to find balance ourselves this early in the metagame, new discoveries would require re-balancing. Example: You give Little Mac some jump boost... but then some weird move-cancel is found to give him excellent vertical hops. Then what? Now he's got a good natural recovery. Do you re-adjust the equipment assigned to characters based on the discoveries made in the vanilla game?

3. If all characters get equipment, the bad will get good... but the good will become pre-patch Diddy Kong. There's a threshold for excellent combo/damage/KO ability, and several top tier characters will cross it. You reduce grab lag for ZSS? You're probably screwed. More KO power for Sheik? Same there.

Granted, I think a side event is perfect for this. Go make your favorite overpowered build and see how it rocks. The differing combos and execution would be interesting to see. This just isn't a great format for hyper-competitive play due to it's random and subjective nature.

 

[BlueFlameIke]

I see three issues:

1. Grinding. It'll take forever, and builds won't be standard.

2. If we attempt to find balance ourselves this early in the metagame, new discoveries would require re-balancing. Example: You give Little Mac some jump boost... but then some weird move-cancel is found to give him excellent vertical hops. Then what? Now he's got a good natural recovery. Do you re-adjust the equipment assigned to characters based on the discoveries made in the vanilla game?

3. If all characters get equipment, the bad will get good... but the good will become pre-patch Diddy Kong. There's a threshold for excellent combo/damage/KO ability, and several top tier characters will cross it. You reduce grab lag for ZSS? You're probably screwed. More KO power for Sheik? Same there.

Granted, I think a side event is perfect for this. Go make your favorite overpowered build and see how it rocks. The differing combos and execution would be interesting to see. This just isn't a great format for hyper-competitive play due to it's random and subjective nature.

1) True
2) Mm yeah, though I don't know if people will patiently wait for the metagame to continue evolving.
3) I opted that top characters should not get equipment, but I do know that people would want everyone to get equipment.

Yea i guess only a side event could be supported. It would be pretty fun to watch and see what people come up with.

 

[Malex]

If we implement equipment......

1. Let's only have bad characters use equipment to balance the game out!

No. There is no quantifiable measure to assess characters on to make the game "balanced." Tier lists are an assessment of CURRENT performance of characters in tournaments within the CURRENT metagame. Tiers change over time based on how the characters are being played. If we are manipulating character strength, we have no idea if characters are getting better because of equipment or because people are just learning more about the character.

What does it even mean for a game to be balanced anyway? 50/50 match ups for all characters? RPS style match ups? How does stage selection get factored in? We would need to be able to draw a line somehow, that once a character crosses it, they can start wearing equipment.

2. Logistics

Problem 1 -- Not everyone has access to the same equipment (outside reward from missions / challenges)

-- previously addressed
​

Problem 2 -- How do you ensure that every character is using these specific set ups?

-- Players can add / create set ups in between matches.
-- Major changes are noticeable, but what if someone changes the +5 to a +6? a +7?
-- What if players change other set ups to negatives to hinder opponents? (Example: Little Mac Recovery too bad, so we give him a speed build. Someone can change it to give a negative defense and the icon will remain the same)
​

Problem 3 -- What happens if someone IS using a character that isn't a legal build?

-- What happens if someone is using an illegal build?
-- How do you prove that they were responsible for uploading the illegal build to the set or otherwise knew ahead of time that the build was illegal?
-- What process has to be developed that allows players to accuse their opponents of using illegal builds?
-- How does this process impact tournament times?
-- What are the repercussions of false accusations?
-- What about tournament losing games where no ramifications are possible? Players would probably want their opponent inspected for cheating, "just in case", as last ditch efforts to stay in the tournament.

​

If you want to allow equipment, the enforcement of them are so difficult and hard to regulate, that you are left with very little choices.

1. No restriction.
2. No secondary effect. (Most secondary effects that matter are major enough to be noticeable over the course of a match, I actually don't agree with this one being possible, but others I have discussed this with have made the argument.)
3. No equipment.


Other than that, I can't see it being maintainable just on enforcement issues. Players will do whatever they can to get ahead. (Example: Players carrying around a specific version of the game because newer versions of the game removed something that slightly nerfed characters. It would be like someone bringing a pre-diddy nerf set up in and only playing diddy on that system)

 

[BlueFlameIke]

If we implement equipment......

1. Let's only have bad characters use equipment to balance the game out!
No.

2. Logistics

Problem 2 -- How do you ensure that every character is using these specific set ups?

-- Players can add / create set ups in between matches.
-- Major changes are noticeable, but what if someone changes the +5 to a +6? a +7?
-- What if players change other set ups to negatives to hinder opponents? (Example: Little Mac Recovery too bad, so we give him a speed build. Someone can change it to give a negative defense and the icon will remain the same)
​

Problem 3 -- What happens if someone IS using a character that isn't a legal build?

-- What happens if someone is using an illegal build?
-- How do you prove that they were responsible for uploading the illegal build to the set or otherwise knew ahead of time that the build was illegal?
-- What process has to be developed that allows players to accuse their opponents of using illegal builds?
-- How does this process impact tournament times?
-- What are the repercussions of false accusations?
-- What about tournament losing games where no ramifications are possible? Players would probably want their opponent inspected for cheating, "just in case", as last ditch efforts to stay in the tournament.​

Other than that, I can't see it being maintainable just on enforcement issues. Players will do whatever they can to get ahead. (Example: Players carrying around a specific version of the game because newer versions of the game removed something that slightly nerfed characters. It would be like someone bringing a pre-diddy nerf set up in and only playing diddy on that system)

1) That's a valid point.
2.2) Um you include it with the pre-made custom builds. You can't add (or not supposed to) custom builds that are different from the legal EVO ruleset because all the sets are already pre-made on the WiiU (usually in tournament settings). So just include the equipment and that way people can't add anything. Only Mii's are setup customed by loading the 3ds to the WiiU.
2.3) Already covered in 2.2.

On the point of the last example, tournament WiiU's are supposed to be updated to the latest version. Custom tournaments don't allow your own character setup to be put in because the TO's already have all the setups done (or should have) based on the EVO legal custom sets. And I never heard of someone having an earlier version character setup and transferring them to give them a boost. I think whatever version the system is at will modify the character to be the same as that version.

 

[Malex]

The example of people using older versions of games was to say that people will do anything they can to win, (Like swapping game discs out for an older version of a game, Some Samus players would do this in melee tournaments.) To make it easier to understand, I put it in terms of Smash 4. If a set up was of an older version and somehow made it past the T.O., a diddy player could just play on that set up, but it was just an example that is similar to an issue for SSBM.

The whole point is that you can't stop someone from modifying set ups in between matches, How do I know that someone didn't change some set ups in the 4 hours that I haven't been on that station? The only way to see what equipment is on there is to load up the custom menu and check all the sets I want to use. (Because the disc is not enough information)

What if my opponent knows what I like to play, and changes that set up to an illegal build, then he has a "get out of jail free card" if he loses the match.

Too much regulation is required for anything other than "All equipment allowed". However, there is no hacked equipment. So, You have to inspect every single piece of used equipment to insure that it isn't hacked piece of equipment AND even if you DID do this, hacked equipment can just be set to the best equipment in the game, which gives them a MAJOR statistical advantage over a player who isn't going to hack their equipment.

Now, the only solution is to basically just use hacked equipment ourselves, but what should the hacked equipment be? The best in-game attainable of +90/-45 (I think this is the best, anyway) Use something outside the normal bounds? Use all +200? Do these changes impact the metagame significantly enough for anyone to desire this outcome?

The argument that I've made in other topics of equipment is that +++ loadouts will be the dominant equipment sets because it makes your character better in every way, it min/maxes your bonuses based on how equipment stat increases work, and it makes sense because then you don't have to worry about what stats your opponents have.

So, the equipment game will degenerate to almost all +++ sets and what does this add to the game? There is no +Attack Little Mac vs + Defense Ganondorf, just all +++, Whether it be +45/+45/+45 or +200/+200/+200 is up to your position on hacked equipment.


tl;dr: Equipment is too hard to regulate unless you allow everything including hacked equipment. If you allow hacked equipment, it will be too hard to regulate unless you allow all stat changes. What is the point of all +200/+200/+200 characters?

 

[BlueFlameIke]

If a set up was of an older version and somehow made it past the T.O., a diddy player could just play on that set up, but it was just an example that is similar to an issue for SSBM.

How do I know that someone didn't change some set ups in the 4 hours that I haven't been on that station?

What if my opponent knows what I like to play, and changes that set up to an illegal build, then he has a "get out of jail free card" if he loses the match.

Too much regulation is required for anything other than "All equipment allowed". However, there is no hacked equipment. So, You have to inspect every single piece of used equipment to insure that it isn't hacked piece of equipment AND even if you DID do this, hacked equipment can just be set to the best equipment in the game, which gives them a MAJOR statistical advantage over a player who isn't going to hack their equipment.

1) Ok dude like no offense, but you are like really skeptical on the whole change disc thing. I'm not going to further argue on this disc/version thing but I will state that although I've seen it happen at a NorCal Regional for Street Fighter IV in Top 8, that was majorly TOs fault and some to the players. In the NorCal Smash 4 community there's over 1800 members and there has never been a post of "Oh an older version was used for tourney", and there is like a tournament almost every day of the week.

On the official rules for STIV, it stated that if players felt like they were cheated, they should report it to the TOs so that they can check the disk. I don't know how easy this is to check in STIV, but for Smash 4 it is a bit easier. Diddy Kong percents are higher or I feel like Uair shouldn't have killed me at that percent. And top players are very knowledgeable now about these things, so that is what I'll say about that.

2) What is stopping people from doing that now? People can put on equipment for customs, or change customs to a non-EVO build. On Wifi tourneys this has happened before. Even though equipment is not part of the legal setup.

3) Same as 2.

4) I would say that TOs would need to have TOs/volunteers at the game stations and just keep a look out for anyone trying to go to the custom setup screen. If they want to check it, the TOs should be in charge of checking for him, and not the player himself. But as most tournaments are, there's a lack of multiple TOs running a tournament, so I can see people changing setups on their own. The community needs to be a bit more serious in terms of the TOs aspect.

The lack of TOs checking in on stations and matches is what makes some tournaments run for longer than expected (ending at 2am instead of 12am) so because of this, equipment would probably not occur because of a large possibility of cheating. That is a valid point that I agree with you on.

But if you are that skeptical about cheating, don't go to tournaments. Like Street Fighter IV, it has happened at regionals were an older version was used. Like I mentioned earlier, there are possible equipment builds that can be done on customs without noticing a change in stats unless you were to check (it's happened on WiFi tournaments).

 

[SphericalCrusher]

For most tournaments, including the majors - No. I would love to see a tournament with equipment though, as it could be very interesting and fun (Same goes for customs vs no customs).

 

[Raethien]

One simple answer, no.

 

[|RK|]

Equipment is far too random to put in the effort for a side game like ISP, and it's unnecessary to balance the main game.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Maybe as a side tourney for ****s and giggles, but definitely not as part of the normal meta. Like everyone else has stated about a gazillion times, it's too random and too difficult to standardize.