Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[manhunter098]

@MiraiGen, Link requires spacing because of the lag on his moves. If you are too close and you miss you are easier to punish. You also need correct spacing since two of his projectiles travel in an arc, so striking your opponent with them requires you to be at the correct distance.


Also I dont see DK with too much trouble against faster characters, except maybe Metaknight...but problems with one fast character doesnt indicate a problem with all or most of them and I dont really seem to have too much trouble using DK against faster characers, except of course MK. Hes got a few relatively fast high priority moves with great range (b-air, f-tilt, u-tilt, n-air to an extent), plus a great jab, and that can for the most part project him from getting spammed all over by most faster characters.

 

[goldemblem]

I think its probably zelda or IC, both of them can battle campers kind of easy, in the case of zelda she can trade projectiles and almost all of his attacks throw ur opponent away, and in case of IC, desynched ice blocks can counter any spammer and be used as spamming, and his blizzard its great for spacing, the only thing its that in zelda i dont see many weaknesess and with IC, they have a lot, but also they have a lot fo strong points

 

[SuperRacoon]

I want to guess Yoshi for #9 now, same reasons as why I guess link in my previous post on this thread, only this time, the underplayed, and the learning curve criteria fit better.

 

[Moy]

I gonna go with Yoshi for #9.

 

[St. Viers]

I'd say update 9 is the question mark. Fit's ALL the criteria

 

[TyrantBandit]

its gotta be Zelda because landing her ariels are so hard if you dont space well. She can Projectle spam against slow characters but not against fast ones. She has some glaring weaknesses in that it is really touch to approach vs some characters especially other projectile spammers or characters with a reflector.

 

[KratosAurion192]

Zelda isn't underated though

 

[KratosAurion]

Zelda isn't underated though

I agree. IMO Samus and Link fit in the most.

Also I like your nickname

 

[adumbrodeus]

Link doesnt lack any hence why I put him on the list.

My point is that it could be any1 of these chars. Yes Link is a good guess but dont be surprised if it isn't his name that comes up.

Ok, so Link fits perfectly...

So now then, what about my counterpoints for your other choices, because both of them seem not to fit. Certainly if you can't supply reasons they don't deserve a spot above Link in the possibilities.

Amongst these issues are, both of them have a lack of a direct vulnerability to speed (as evidenced to both being even at best with the game's fastest character, sonic, and in his case that's really his ONLY advantage), and one certainly not being underplayed (Zelda).

In Zelda's case, the only fast characters she really has weaknesses to are marth (EVERYONE is weak to marth...) and squirtle (who zelda has difficulty with because he's so FRIKING SMALL). Neither of them is really because of their speed primarily.

Samus has more weaknesses to fast characters, but in all cases, the speed isn't really the killing factor, it just increases existing weaknesses, otherwise again, the sonic fight would be no contest, and the most sonic-favoring estimation you will hear (namely on the sonic forms) is that it's neutral. If you look on the match-up thread on tactical discussions, it's Samus' game.

"Too slow to do anything to a fast character" is a really strong phrase, something neither Zelda nor Samus deserves, and I supremely doubt that the Backroom hasn't noticed this, especially with how much they hyped Zelda's buffs.



Among other things.



If it was somebody else that deserved this analysis then yeah, I would agree, perhaps I'm just not thinking of that character, but not Samus, and not Zelda. I'm a zelda secondary, and I can tell you from personal experience how she obliterates, just about everyone, including most fast characters. Samus, I have less experience with, however most games I've observed, she plays pretty evenly with fast characters if the skill gap isn't to great.

So, neither of them fit the bill.

I gonna go with Yoshi for #9.

I'm gonna reject that for the same reason I reject Samus, does too well against too many fast characters. The neutral against sonic should tell the story.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This character has a difficult learning curve as spacing is essential. This character can stop most campy characters from camping, spams all over slow characters, but is still too slow to do anything to a fast character. There is no doubt this underplayed character can become amazing in the future, but a few glaring weaknesses will probably prevent this character from ever reaching some of the higher tiers.

Can you guess who next week's character is?
I need to thank Kyari for half of this hint, as I took something Kyari posted and made it ambiguous ^_^

Zelda Zelda ZELDA... um except that she really has no problems with any fast charcters besides marth.

(yes, I know squirtle is on Ivan Eva's tier list as a bad matchup, but it's not... trust me.)

but just because I think this, doesn't mean that the back room agrees.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Zelda Zelda ZELDA... um except that she really has no problems with any fast charcters besides marth.

(yes, I know squirtle is on Ivan Eva's tier list as a bad matchup, but it's not... trust me.)

but just because I think this, doesn't mean that the back room agrees.

As a Zelda secondary, for a variety of reasons I find a squirtle to definitely be a particularly difficult match-up, primarily because his size makes landing the sweet spots for a lot of moves REALLY difficult, especially dair and fair, moves which I can reliably sweet-spot against most other characters.

Of course, I can switch to my main, Marth... *organ music in background* ...but that's not the point, even if it isn't a disadvantage and it's just a function of my Zelda skill, I can definitely see why it's a disadvantage in the match-up thread.

But it's his size, not his speed that makes squirtle difficult.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

As a Zelda secondary, for a variety of reasons I find a squirtle to definitely be a particularly difficult match-up, primarily because his size makes landing the sweet spots for a lot of moves REALLY difficult, especially dair and fair, moves which I can reliably sweet-spot against most other characters.

Of course, I can switch to my main, Marth... *organ music in background* ...but that's not the point, even if it isn't a disadvantage and it's just a function of my Zelda skill, I can definitely see why it's a disadvantage in the match-up thread.

But it's his size, not his speed that makes squirtle difficult.

squirtle actually has below average ground speed. it's his air speed which is incredible, not that that means much because zelda is a ground bound character.

anyway, Zelda honestly beats squirtle just because of range and priority, Simply speaking, if you play defensively with zelda and are smart about it, squirtle should have a really hard time hitting you. Almost all of your attacks have greater range than ANY of his atatcks, and they normally have better priority... realistically, squirtle should only be able to hit you if you whiff one of your attacks.

 

[Browny]

oh lawd it appears i am lost, which way to the character discussion thread?

/sarcasm

If this week isnt Link, i lose all faith in any possibility remaining in guessing these updates.

 

[MiraiGen]

@MiraiGen, Link requires spacing because of the lag on his moves. If you are too close and you miss you are easier to punish. You also need correct spacing since two of his projectiles travel in an arc, so striking your opponent with them requires you to be at the correct distance.

Hm.

I think I'm convinced. Zelda's too good to possibly be considered 'held back by glaring weaknesses,' so yeah, Link sounds good.

 

[Wuss]

i suggest the possibility of it being mario. I played as ganon against a mario the other day and was surprised at how hard it was to move while he was spamming those **** fireballs. Spacing is def key with mario because his f smash needs to be sweet spotted otherwise it kind of sucks. not entirely sure what some of his glaring weaknesses would be, other than his sucky down b.

 

[Metro Knight]

i THINK it will be Roy!

 

[FlyingMudPuppy]

I know this is gonna sound real dumb and someone will correct my glaring weakness (in the thought process), but here goes anyways

...maybe Olimar? *winces*

I was thinking that getting the spacing for the different pikmin would be really tough, and completely guessing he's not good against fast characters (probably wrong...) and his weakness would be recovery among others...

 

[FlyingMudPuppy]

I think these are kind of like horoscopes... you can fit the description to any character

 

[Renufus]

I think these are kind of like horoscopes... you can fit the description to any character

Except not really.

 

[KingK]

You can find a way to fit the description to a lot of different characters, though. The various discussions in this thread clearly prove that.

 

[Corrick]

Link for sho on number 9

 

[KMB23]

i bet yoshi or link.

 

[MiraiGen]

You can find a way to fit the description to a lot of different characters, though. The various discussions in this thread clearly prove that.

Well, yeah, but that's the point.

Plus if I understand it correctly they're monitoring this thread specifically to see exactly how we argue for it, thus finding who's qualified and adult enough to be considered for the SBR.

I'mma go screw around with Link a bit and see about how spacing works for him.

 

[Novan007]

Olimar!!!:
Spacing - needed for pikmin
Gimpable recovery - tether recovery
steeeeeep learning curve to be played well!

 

[Dabuz]

i must go 4 king dedede, underplayed, good spacing abilities (foward tilt and b), spams easilly against slow people but not good against fast ones and has a good learning curve, otherwise it must be ness/ lucas, for same reasons, also they both have glaring weaknesses, 3d has slow attacks except tilts, easily countered recovery, so so specials, a big target, ect.(which should be most used moves) while ness/lucas is light, low priority, slowness in all areas (especially lucas), can't ko, has trouble against characters that are small and ground also because they are better as air fighters (truer with ness), and have trouble koing

like said before its either 3d or ness/lucas, i main olimar and he can own fast characters easily if played right, zelda doesn't fit he description great, and link fairs good against fast characters, if you can use projectiles to force fast enemies to get close just to trick them into tilts or up bs to push them back and keep this strategy up till you get a chance to use a foward smash at 100 or more damage and knock them off the stage then just use edgegaurd tactics

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I think no#9 is Lucario...although I don't know about the glaring weaknesses part, since he only has one and that's his recovery.

And lol at anyone who thinks Ness/Lucas are slow and can't KO. Funniest thing I've heard all day.

 

[Dabuz]

they are pretty slow, lucas much more than ness( i meant in attacks) and ness only has 3 good ko moves, one is extremely slow and leaves you open, one is predictable and one isn't fast enough and doesn't have enough range, lucas has stronger ko moves but are a lot harder to hit with, also, i guess the spike is good but situational

 

[NoobCake]

Seems like Pit to me though....I'm not quite sure why Maybe the spamming part? (**** arrows )

 

[LegendofLink]

#9 is definitely Link. His variety of projectiles and his z-air are very effective at countering most campers (epically Snake). He has an ok up close game due to his range, but he is just too slow to handle the likes of MK and the Space Animals. He is just fast enough to play a humiliating keep away game against people slower than him (Bowser, Gannondorf, and maybe DK).

 

[Adapt]

Plus if I understand it correctly they're monitoring this thread specifically to see exactly how we argue for it, thus finding who's qualified and adult enough to be considered for the SBR.

I think the monitor the actual character discussion thread that is created each week and put in the character's forum, not this thread. This thread is to provide us with something to do in the mean time, and heighten the anticipation.


Also, I said luigi a while back, and i don't really think it means him anymore, I would rather say mario because the cape is better for stopping spamming characters. and Samus sounds pretty close too

 

[Browny]

they are pretty slow, lucas much more than ness( i meant in attacks) and ness only has 3 good ko moves, one is extremely slow and leaves you open, one is predictable and one isn't fast enough and doesn't have enough range, lucas has stronger ko moves but are a lot harder to hit with, also, i guess the spike is good but situational

are you forgetting about his bthrow? ness #1 KO move imo. instant kill to lightweights at 100, heavies at 130%.

 

[LegendofLink]

I think he was talking about Ness's b-throw when he was talking about the KO move that doesn't have enough range (Ness's grab range is horrible), so no he didn't forget it.

 

[Dabuz]

ty legend of link

 

[Sh1n0b1]

#9: Samus? Link?

 

[Kitamerby]

I think no#9 is Lucario...although I don't know about the glaring weaknesses part, since he only has one and that's his recovery.

And lol at anyone who thinks Ness/Lucas are slow and can't KO. Funniest thing I've heard all day.

*CRY*

Lucario has no problems with fast characters, has no "glaring" weaknesses (Recovery is extremely ungimpable due to both curving and the wallcling unless the Lucario is stupid enough to use it too close to the opponent, combined with insane sweetspot and aerial movement), and if you say he has to take lots of damage to KO, I cry. D:

 

[manhunter098]

Lucario doesnt even really have a glaring weakness with his recovery really, it all depends on the stage since he can wall cling if someone edgehogs him on a number of stages, and Ive even managed to do it on the ledge itself once, but I have no clue how I managed it.

There is no way its Lucario.


Something else to add to Link, depending on the character camping against him, he can block almost every projectile with his shield, depending on the height that it was fired from (or how it travels). Just something to add to his anti camping abilities, since he doesnt need to shield in order to stop most oncoming projectiles.

 

[LegendofLink]

I agree, Lucario's recovery is only very gimpable on certain stages, such as Lylat or Smashville, and even then, if the player DIs properly, Lucario can recover from above, completely removing this weakness altogether. Lucario's only major weakness is his lack of KO options when he is at low%'s.

Link's recovery, on the other hand, is definitely one of the most gimpable recoveries in the game (next to Olimar's and Ivysaur's). You don't even have to edgehog him, just tap him with an aerial and he probably won't make it back.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

#9 is definitely Link. His variety of projectiles and his z-air are very effective at countering most campers (epically Snake). He has an ok up close game due to his range, but he is just too slow to handle the likes of MK and the Space Animals. He is just fast enough to play a humiliating keep away game against people slower than him (Bowser, Gannondorf, and maybe DK).

Bowser and DK are faster then Link overall. They both run faster then him (Especially DK who runs as fast as Toon Link) and their attacks aren't slow (Not that fast either). Their problem is their size which may make them look slow.

 

[manhunter098]

Well Links projectiles work to his advantage against larger characters, even if they are technically faster than him, they have to take time to avoid his bombs, arrows, and boomerang, which can slow them down dramatically and they are also vulnerable to still taking damage if their shields are not close to maximum since due to their size they become vulnerable quickly.


So basically large characters are vulnerable to Links projectile game and most larger characters tend to be rather slow, hence the hint mentioning slow characters also applies mostly to bigger characters who are susceptible to being spammed by Links projectile game.

 

[LegendofLink]

Sorry, I wasn't sure about DK, thats why I gave him a maybe. Bowser's dash may be surprisingly fast, but he moves rather slowly otherwise. Projectiles would force him to shield/spot dodge/jump which slows his movement speed to a crawl, allowing Link to keep ahead of him.

Edit: Sorry, Manhunter, I hadn't refreshed the page before I posted, so I hadn't seen your post.