Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[manhunter098]

It ends a bit before he reaches the peak of the jump, but you can cancel the jump and grab the ledge before that happens if you are good, so his recovery is definitely difficult to gimp even to skilled players. As long as the player using it can direct DDD to the perfect spot anyways.

 

[KhannKlan]

Am I going off on a limb by guessing Olimar? I think I am.

 

[Vaul]

WhatwhatWHHAAAATTT??!!?! (owl from sword in the stone anyone?)

This is going to be a somewhat long post. But you're going to read it because it's more readable and relevant than 90% of the other posts on this thread. If you want intelligent arguments and controversial claims, this is it right here baby. If you're the TL;DR type, then by all means you are more than welcome to move on to other posts like "its ness cuz he's so good in the air and he can spikez u!1 and pk aether wario waft! " Dear reader, you deserve better than that. Now relax, grab a beverage of your choosing and turn on some light jazz to set the mood, settle back and enjoy what will hopefully be a good read. This is, after all, what being a member of the Smash community is all about.

I'm going to cumulate all my past arguments right here, mainly because I'm:
a) Tired of these 2 sentence posts that have absolutely no meaning or impact whatsoever in the formal, universal hodgepodge that is existence. In the Smash sense, they mean even less. I really can't blame more experienced players for not posting here, but I still do anyway because I have absolutely no integrity whatsoever.
b) I am home much earlier than I had originally anticipated. Perhaps this reflects the rather pitiful state of my current sexual prowess (it's all been downhill since I was 12), yet I'm no longer fazed by this and instead find myself idle, provoking outrageous arguments just because I have a Smashboards account (what the f*** else is it for?).

But back to the subject at hand...

First, let's all remember that these 'hints' are usually overgeneralized, contain red herrings, and are extremely vague. The character does NOT have to personify a hinted attribute, rather, they merely have to exhibit it only somewhat. Hence, MANY characters will fall under the given description; just because someone has a great aerial game/bad recovery/poor ground game/is underestimated, etc. doesn't mean its going to be them. We must take every clue into account as wannabe detectives and not rely on any one characteristic for a character that just happens to get you aroused. That being said, let us now turn to the four holy sentences that have evoked fury, admiration, depression, and most importantly....love:

Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent. But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options against long range or projectile spamming characters other than one of their B attacks. And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily

Outside of these four sentences, nothing else can be assumed. This is all you have to work with. Embrace the words of SamuraiPanda. Based on the above description, as well as recent intelligent arguments posted here, the following characters, in no particular order, are the most plausible candidates:

Luigi
Wario
Ness
Peach
Jigglypuff
ZSS
Ike
Yoshi
Bowser

Why it's most likely NOT any of the following:

Olimar: He's not underrated. He's really god**** annoying/good. And his recovery isn't 'fine sometimes', it's actually the worst in the game.

Zelda: Her ground game is absolutely incredible and outshines her air game. She's not underestimated, she is spam, and above all, she's not fun to talk about.

Sonic: Recovery is superb, 'B move' exception does not ring true, besides off stage gimps (which is applicable to everyone), his aerials are not going to take you out at surprisingly low percents.

Samus: Projectiles. Recovery. Period.

DDD: Do I really need to go over this?

IC's: If I have to address this one more time, I swear to god, I will delete this account so as to avoid the repetitious idiocy that continues to barrage my retinas (that's a lie, I have no retinas). The hint NEVER says 'them'; 'their' is only used, presumably, for gender neutrality only. Forget plurality; srysly.

DK: Other than his godly bair, his air game is nothing too special (besides the two spikes, of which are difficult to land and have obscene lag). Ground game>air game.

Marth: He is not underrated. Repeat after me. He is not underrated. Repeat after me. He is not und......

Kirby: His recovery is superb, he's not underestimated, no notable B move exception.

Falcon: Unfortunately, CF is so much of a joke character now I can hardly believe the SBR would bother talking about him over other characters. He's reliant on an air game that simply doesn't exist. Whenever I'm acting and need to cry in a scene, I think about the knee. Well, I would....if I was an actor.

Ganon: See above. Replace "knee" with "everything Ganon had going for him in Melee".

Fox: No. Just stop.

Assuming all the above is true (which it is, cuz it's coming from Vaul), let's now narrow down the stated possibilities. Why the next character of the week is NOT....

Ness

First, let me remind everyone that Ness's current state of being competitive---regarding the three infinites and the chaingrabs against him by nearly every other character---is still in question. The point is, Ness's tourney fate still hangs in the balance; THAT issue should definitely be addressed first and foremost. Think about it: If you were living your wet dream and were a SBR member, would you want to publicize Ness, currently surrounded by controversy, over other characters? Hmm? Yea that's what I thought. Now, onto the hint itself:
With the exception of Link, Olimar, and Ivysaur, I would rather have any other character's recovery over Ness's. That's right. I said it. Let me repeat that theme for anyone who was too busy 'baitin to Mr. Saturn: Ness, compared to the rest of the cast, and with the new physics of Brawl, has one of the worst recoveries in the game. Ness fanboys (of whom went total ape**** when they heard 'devastating air game') can argue all they'd like how good Ness's recovery is, but that still won't change the fact that Ness's recovery in relative terms (NOT absolute) is incredibly abysmal, only superior to the three stated above. Even Ness mains can't agree on what the B move exception against spammers may be (Hint: Its not PSI magnet, PK fire, PK thunder, or PK flash). Overall, I just can't see him being next week's character. Should I be wrong, you, the Ness fanboys (and girls!) may brand me upon your Wall of Shame. For all eternity.

Jigglypuff

If you actually bothered to read a few of the past posts before posting your opinion (do you think it's Wario?!?! Really???! I never even considered him!!!! Your sentence is just sooooooooo sensual), you may somehow recall that I formerly defended Jiggs mainly for the sake of instigating her inclusion into the conversation. As far as the hint goes, she has a lot going for her; superb air game, underestimated, a fun anomaly from the former SBR Character of the week, a fine recovery, and even a response to spam (rollout mainly). But she simply does not fit the gimpable recovery category. Despite her rather slow coming back to the stage, she's got a lot of versatility and plenty of options to choose from.

Bowser

You'd be surprised at how plausible Bowser is. He is underestimated, fun to talk about, has an incredible and surprisingly devastating air game (fair kills, bair kills, uair kills, downb kills, dair has high priority, nair comes out very quickly), and an OK recovery that can still be countered by smart players. However, the one remaining hint takes him out; Bowser simply does not have a special move he can use in response to spam. Flamethrower/fire breath and UpB simply do not have enough range to compensate for his other hand-to-hand combat moves.

Ike

Ike is in a very similar scenario to Bowser. Ike has a great air game that is quick, disjointed, and devastatingly strong. Initially applauded by smashers for his incredible strength and seemingly great recovery, he has since plunged in popularity with new tactics to counter both Aether and Quickdraw as a means for returning to the stage. You can even argue that Ike can use these two special moves (maybe even his downB, Counter) to respond to projectile spam. Yet herein lies the reverse psychology some one else mentioned earlier: Do we actually believe he personifies these attributes, or are we led to believe them? For example, which style of gameplay of Ike do you find more essential for him: his air game or his ground game? How often are the best Ike players going to allow themselves to be 'easily gimped'? When you fight against Ike, do YOU underestimate him? Ask these questions, reflect upon the answers you may find, and then come to a conclusion based on facts. In the words of Chris Rock: Anyone who takes a side before they hear the issue is a f****** idiot.

So, based on the rule of thumb that all of the above is true, we are left with the following nominees:

Wario
Luigi
Peach
ZSS
Yoshi

As I'm sure all of you are now aware, the main consensus has been that Wario is the most likely candidate to be next week's character. In my opinion, I believe this to be true; unfortunately for us underestimated character mainers, the SBR, based upon their notable past of only using the more competitive characters, and considering the vagueness of the these hints that are used more so for opening the window of opportunity for other characters in order to promote discussion instead of actually relating to the character itself, Wario will be most likely to fill the spot. I by no means find him underestimated; his aerial game, whether the moves KO or not, are all amazingly useful and surprising. The notable contender PaxzCrimson of Mexico has so far exemplified Wario's potential to the max, winning tournaments and being among the first to pave the way for Wario's (and all of Brawl's for that matter) metagame. That said, I never, never, NEVER fight a Wario and view it like any other matchup; Wario is a unique opponent/main in which you have to use a style completely different and impromptu from the rest of the cast.
Yet apparently, the Wario 'stereotype' is that he's viewed as a joke character, used primarily for comic relief (ha...ha?) and usually not taken too seriously. If the SBR believes this stereotype has not changed since the release of Brawl, then it will be Wario, no questions asked. In actuality, this is the most important determining factor. Depending on this factor, Wario either fills all of the hint's requirements or only some of them. Since I actually have a life/not an SBR member (although we all secretly long to be), I cannot speak on behalf of them nor predict their stance on the Wario stereotype. I cannot add anything further to the Wario debate.

As for Peach and ZSS, I must make a confession. I know this is going to sound extremely radical, brash, and may very well stimulate an unprecedented wall of flaming, yet nevertheless I will stand up for what I believe is right and I daresay my integrity (or lack thereof) will not be compromised.

I, Vaul, am not qualified to judge these characters. I simply do not have the knowledge or first hand experience with these contenders and will instead leave their defense to that of another proud member of this fine Smash community. I have come to understand, however, that they both adequately fulfill the stated requirements, albeit to varying degrees.

If for some odd reason you are still with me, I shall now present my arguments for the remaining green monsters, Luigi and Yoshi. Yet first, for purposes of providing a quick reference, and perhaps setting a record for all of Smash Boards, I will restate the OP's quote again....in the same post.

Next week's character will be a fun one to talk about. Underestimated by many, this character has a devastating aerial game that will surprise you when it takes you out at a low percent. But on the ground this character doesn't have very many options against long range or projectile spamming characters other than one of their B attacks. And this character's recovery can be fine sometimes, but against smart opponents this character can be gimped quite easily

Luigi

Fun to talk about: Check. C'mon...its Luigi. Who sees THAT coming?
Underestimated: Check. Not exactly the most underrated character, Luigi's more limited popularity (compared to that of Snake, MK, etc) and his enormous potential definitely fits the bill.
Devastating Aerial Game: Uber check. Fair kills. Bair kills. Nair kills. Dair kills. Uair juggles. Not to mention his epic downB.
Poor vs Projectiles with B exception: Check. Against the likes of Pit and TL, Luigi's options for approaching are limited....with the exception of his downB. This thing is fast, has high priority, and covers a large amount of distance in a relatively short period of time, closing the gap and brining Luigi a little too close for comfort.
Recovery is normally fine....: Check. Once again stating the obvious, Luigi has MUCH more going for him as far as his recovery goes. SideB is still effective as ever, downB is now AMAZING, and his UpB will always give him the benefit of the doubt when approaching the ledge. In most cases/in an average match, Luigi shouldn't have much trouble returning to the stage.
....but can be gimped: Check. Remember, this is Luigi we're talking about. If Luigi hasn't charged a suffient enough SideB, he will almost always try to sweetspot the ledge coming from below. DownB certainly helps, but if Luigi faces a lot of aggressive edgeguarding, this will only get him so far. And with the classic no horizontal movement whatsoever for his UpB, Luigi certainly can be challenged by a competent player off the stage.

Yoshi

Fun to talk about: Check. Its f****** yoshi man, god****.
Underestimated: UBER check. Yoshi, next to DK, has been the most underrated character throughout the Smash series.
Devastating Aerial Game: Check. Uair is absolutely beastly; it's Yoshi's strongest kill move, has no lag on contact and/or landing, and has more priority than G&W's key....whoa. Additionally, fair spikes, nair kills, and bair and dair are great for combos. Not to mention the extensive power of his downb.
Poor vs projectiles with B exception: Check. Yoshi is a great defensive character (THE MAN/THING CANT GET SHIELD STABBED!!), however, this style is completely negated by the likes of Pit and TL. The B move exception has two options:
1. SideB, Egg Roll. Fast with decent priority that cancels most projectiles. However, there are ofcourse exceptions, with explosives still tearing it apart.
2. UpB, Egg Throw. A solid projectile and great for edgeguarding, and canceling edgehops with UpB is still possible. However, it's a bit slow to come out compared to other projectiles. So while it's a good response to spammers, it won't be able to beat every character's projectile game.
Usually fine recovery....: Check. In most cases, Yoshi's recovery has been drastically improved from Melee. No DJC and the new UpB buff give Yoshi more options when returning to the stage. A good Yoshi will save his second jump after using extensive UpB's; its SA frames are very much still there as well.
....but can be gimped: Uber Check. This is Yoshi afterall. There's only so much he can do to counter good edgeguarding.

Peach and ZZS aside (although I believe they have very good chances as well), the SBR, as stated, will most likely still use Wario, with Luigi and Yoshi tying for a close second. Only time will truly tell who will reign supreme and end this infernal discussion once and for all....until next week's hint is released. Then it's open season all over again. Yea baby.

So there you have it. I don't even know if I should even attempt editing this thing, or if anyone will even bother reading it. In order to reward anyone who has read all of this and still isn't satisfied, here is a reward for achieving the impossible:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=8995799804738175148&hl=en-CA



Oh, and Rosalina from Mario Galaxy.....














.....you've thought about it.




10char

 

[MiraiGen]

As I'm sure all of you are now aware, the main consensus has been that Wario is the most likely candidate to be next week's character. In my opinion, I believe this to be true; unfortunately for us underestimated character mainers, the SBR, based upon their notable past of only using the more competitive characters, and considering the vagueness of the these hints that are used more so for opening the window of opportunity for other characters in order to promote discussion instead of actually relating to the character itself, Wario will be most likely to fill the spot. I by no means find him underestimated; his aerial game, whether the moves KO or not, are all amazingly useful and surprising. The notable contender PaxzCrimson of Mexico has so far exemplified Wario's potential to the max, winning tournaments and being among the first to pave the way for Wario's (and all of Brawl's for that matter) metagame. That said, I never, never, NEVER fight a Wario and view it like any other matchup; Wario is a unique opponent/main in which you have to use a style completely different and impromptu from the rest of the cast.
Yet apparently, the Wario 'stereotype' is that he's viewed as a joke character, used primarily for comic relief (ha...ha?) and usually not taken too seriously. If the SBR believes this stereotype has not changed since the release of Brawl, then it will be Wario, no questions asked. In actuality, this is the most important determining factor. Depending on this factor, Wario either fills all of the hint's requirements or only some of them. Since I actually have a life/not an SBR member (although we all secretly long to be), I cannot speak on behalf of them nor predict their stance on the Wario stereotype. I cannot add anything further to the Wario debate.

I don't think anyone in the SBR has any reason to smack Wario with the "Joke character" tag, especially considering he's one of the most interesting characters in the game (Forward B summons the bike, which turns into an item and multiple items soon after, he's got Jiggly's air manuverability but not her extra jumps, Waft is a three-minute charging attack, etc). He's got so much going for him I'd be surprised if anyone still held him as "Comedic relief"

So, in short, I disagree very strongly with the idea that he is, has been, or ever will be considered a "Joke character".

As for Luigi, man, I don't think so. Luigi's down B was given crazy aerial properties in Brawl, and it gives him so much recovery even with his super-floatiness I don't think that he's an "Easily gimped" especially considering his Fair comes out superquick.

Yoshi? Eh, I'll concede the point. Gimp him just after his second jump's SA frames and he's out.

Wario Wario Wario. Gotta be.

 

[Grandeza]

Vaul I cant believe I read that but it was worth every minute of my time. Wario it is.... I'm so lucky. I main Diddy and they do him. I switch to Wario and they're about to do him

 

[Browny]

Vaul it all makes sense, i would have said yoshi but i just cant see how his recovery is gimpable in any way. he may not make it back to the stage, but that wouldnt be gimping as such, since you simply cant stop him.

Luigi makes more sense

 

[Shök]

Yeah it's probably Luigi.
He's underestimated.
Has a nice recovery.
Bad against Projectiles.

His aerial game........
HOLY CR*P

He can do any two aerials (even his nair, but it's tricky.) in any short hop.
That is JAKKED! He can Ken Combo too.

It's Luigi.

 

[Brandon72196]

#8 is luigi.

 

[Pure-???]

well, it's luigi or wario. more likely than not.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Outside of these four sentences, nothing else can be assumed. This is all you have to work with. Embrace the words of SamuraiPanda. Based on the above description, as well as recent intelligent arguments posted here, the following characters, in no particular order, are the most plausible candidates:

Luigi
Wario
Ness
Peach
Jigglypuff
ZSS
Ike
Yoshi
Bowser

I am most curious as to why ZSS, peach, jigglyPuff and Wario are up there since they aren't gimpable by any means other than a major screw up on the opponents part.

Sonic: Recovery is superb, 'B move' exception does not ring true, besides off stage gimps (which is applicable to everyone), his aerials are not going to take you out at surprisingly low percents.

This is where lack of knowledge concerning Sonic and his gameplay sticks out most.

No its not applicable to everyone. Very few characters can gimp to the extent that Sonic can with the same results. Can you name more than a handful of characters that are capable of going close to the boundaries of the stage and make it back?

His aerials can kill you at early percents.
Uair at 95%
Dair semispikes
Spring gimps quite well.
Bair is a kill move.

Nair and Fair aremore for gimping so it is still killing you even if he isn't knocking you out the arena in one hit.

He does kill at early percentags with his aerial I cannot understand why people usually believe he cannot. The only time he is incapable of killing someone is usually if they have a recovery above average. For example ZSS and Peach.

.

Ness

First, let me remind everyone that Ness's current state of being competitive---regarding the three infinites and chaingrabs against him by nearly every other character---is still in question. The point is, Ness's tourney fate still hangs in the balance; THAT issue should definitely be addressed first and foremost. Think about it: If you were living your wet dream and were a SBR member, would you want to publicize Ness, currently surrounded by controversy, over other characters? Hmm? Yea that's what I thought. Now, onto the hint itself:

This bothers me as well.

Ness only has an infinite chaingrab performed on him by Marth and Charizard.
No chain grab from any other character.
Does no one read the the topics concerning Ness and Lucas anymore?

Everything else I agree with concerning Luigi and Yoshi but just a correction.

He doesn't have SA frames he has juggernaut frames. I repeat JUGGERNAUT FRAMES.
its just like Snake's ^B where a strong enough attack will knock him out of it. I have done this before with Ike.
Its difficult to knock him out of his double jump but it can be done.

Peach and ZZS aside (although I believe they have very good chances as well), the SBR, as stated, will most likely still use Wario, with Luigi and Yoshi tying for a close second. Only time will truly tell who will reign supreme and end this infernal discussion once and for all....until next week's hint is released. Then it's open season all over again. Yea baby.

Peach and ZSS are ungimpable unless the opponent really screws up.

I deleted a large amount of your post since a lot of it was more fluff than factual evidence. Just get directly to the point..

 

[MiraiGen]

The only reason I think it can't be luigi is the "Underestimated by many". He was always a fan favorite back in Melee and even Samurai Panda and Youko agree that he's a ****storm of powerhouse this time around.

 

[Intercept]

Vaul I read your whole post and watched the video. Hilarious.

 

[Pure-???]

Vaul I read your whole post and watched the video. Hilarious.

ProtonJon is awesome.

 

[Vaul]

Ness only has an infinite chaingrab performed on him by Marth and Charizard.
No chain grab from any other character.
Does no one read the the topics concerning Ness and Lucas anymore?

...and DK, a la Cargo throw. Marth+Charizard+DK=3 infinites
The chaingrab, as I have come to understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), can be done by virtually any character without a tether grab, done simply by grabbing, pummeling them until Ness/Lucas escape, and, due to the immense amount of recovering lag these two characters exhibit, they can simply be grabbed again until there's no more room left on the stage. Once again, if this sounds misconstrued or too subjective, please enlighten me.

I am most curious as to why ZSS, peach, jigglyPuff and Wario are up there since they aren't gimpable by any means other than a major screw up on the opponents part.....The only time [Sonic] is incapable of killing someone is usually if they have a recovery above average. For example ZSS and Peach....Peach and ZSS are ungimpable unless the opponent really screws up.

Okay, I really didn't want to address this directly, but in Brawl, what exactly is an "average" recovery? I almost thought about making a 'recovery tier list', but I won't even bother; it would be pretty much be based on only my views and experiences and would be debated until the end of time. Yet even still, I find myself consistently looking down upon those who adamantly claim their character is 'ungimpable' in virtually every scenario. '(Un)gimpable' is a term tossed around so commonly I doubt you could make a definition that everyone could agree with. I had a similar conversation in this thread with EarthBounder earlier. He insisted that a specific character was not so much "gimpable" as they were "prone to good edge guarding". If you can explain in detail the difference between gimping and edge guarding to me, that would be much appreciated.
And no matter what that answer may be, how many characters are actually "ungimpable"? I've heard it all: From the more apparent recoveries of MK, Pit, G&W, Pikachu, ROB and Sonic to the questionable Sheik, Zelda, Snake, Wario, Jiggly and Samus, down again to the more controversial TL, Lucas, Peach, DDD, Marth and Ike to the downright confounding Falcon, DK, Yoshi, Ness, ZSS, etc. You get my point. Basically everyones 2 cents, including mine, all comes down to complete subjectivity and personal bias. Who am I/are you to draw the line? And do Peach and ZSS really have ' above average' recoveries that cannot be gimped? Considering Peach's abysmal second jump and ZSS's reliance on tethers (yes, I am well aware of the existence of their abilities to float and use downB, respectively), I believe your claim is far from absolute. Who would you say has an 'average' recovery? Squirtle? Charizard? TL? I don't mean to sound condescending at all, but I feel I still have to state the obvious: whatever your opinion may be, you will always find staunch resistance (as I am right now) to any claim you may present. That said, do you still believe that Peach and ZSS are ungimpable? Are they an unstoppable force---on par with that of MK----when off the stage? Should I just hang back and wait for their inevitable return, since after all, their ungimpable?

Oh, and as I'm sure you noted later, I dismiss Jigglypuff. As for ZSS and Peach, I'm no expert on the issue and am very much open to being proven wrong.

This is where lack of knowledge concerning Sonic and his gameplay sticks out most.

No its not applicable to everyone. Very few characters can gimp to the extent that Sonic can with the same results. Can you name more than a handful of characters that are capable of going close to the boundaries of the stage and make it back?

'Handful' is subjective. Jiggly, DDD, Samus, Peach, MK, Pit, ROB, G&W, and Pikachu immediately come to mind.. Hell, given the circumstances, this can easily be applicable to Wario, DK (provided not too far below the ledge), and TL using good DI; with Brawl physics, this really isn't too difficult. But, like anything else, this is all up for debate. I'm trying to avoid hypocrisy as much as possible, but I need others to point out any flaws.

[Sonic's] aerials can kill you at early percents.
Uair at 95%
Dair semispikes
Spring gimps quite well.
Bair is a kill move.

Nair and Fair aremore for gimping so it is still killing you even if he isn't knocking you out the arena in one hit.

He does kill at early percentags with his aerial I cannot understand why people usually believe he cannot. The only time he is incapable of killing someone is usually if they have a recovery above average. For example ZSS and Peach.

I'm not going to delve into this very much, as you seem more familiar with Sonic's gameplay than I am (even though you could say I 'secondary' him). But besides his gimping/edgeguarding abilities, would you still call his aerial game on the stage 'devastating'? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe one of the biggest issues facing Sonic is his immense lack of priority. You can argue all the endless possibilities Sonic has going for him in the air, but that wont change any ugly truth. The notion of his uair killing at 95% is highly situational and can be telegraphed by any good player far above the stage; I know you're going to try to spring to uair for your easy kill, but how often does this actually work? Do you get it off every match? What's the actual average percentage Sonic's uair kills (not your best case scenario)? If you do manage to pull this off consistently with an average in close proximity to 95%, I would question the competency of your opponents. I won't be the one to really debate this that much though, since once again, you have more knowledge than I do in the area.

Everything else I agree with concerning Luigi and Yoshi but just a correction.

He doesn't have SA frames he has juggernaut frames. I repeat JUGGERNAUT FRAMES.
its just like Snake's ^B where a strong enough attack will knock him out of it. I have done this before with Ike.
Its difficult to knock him out of his double jump but it can be done.

Okay, juggernaut frames. So sue me (but thank you for pointing that out).

I deleted a large amount of your post since a lot of it was more fluff than factual evidence. Just get directly to the point...

Yea, there really isn't that much hard data in their. But that's been all done before by so many others; if you find any raw evidence contradictory to my claims, you know what to do. I guess I was going more for readability and holding the reader's interest with the irrelevant sexual references, odd gags, and whatnot.




10char

 

[wasabicheese]

that vid is rly funny lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

...and DK, a la Cargo throw. Marth+Charizard+DK=3 infinites
The chaingrab, as I have come to understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), can be done by virtually any character without a tether grab, done simply by grabbing, pummeling them until Ness/Lucas escape, and, due to the immense amount of recovering lag these two characters exhibit, they can simply be grabbed again until there's no more room left on the stage. Once again, if this sounds misconstrued or too subjective, please enlighten me.

No it was an unintentional error on the creators part.
After several tests by many other people they found that only Charizard and Marth could perform an infinite on them.
Not sure about DK's cargo hold I might have not seen it.
The other characters can't pummel and chain grab Ness and Lucas.
Only Marth and Charizard and DK.

Okay, I really didn't want to address this directly, but in Brawl, what exactly is an "average" recovery? I almost thought about making a 'recovery tier list', but I won't even bother; it would be pretty much be based on only my views and experiences and would be debated until the end of time. Yet even still, I find myself consistently looking down upon those who adamantly claim their character is 'ungimpable' in virtually every scenario. '(Un)gimpable' is a term tossed around so commonly I doubt you could make a definition that everyone could agree with. I had a similar conversation in this thread with EarthBounder earlier. He insisted that a specific character was not so much "gimpable" as they were "prone to good edge guarding". If you can explain in detail the difference between gimping and edge guarding to me, that would be much appreciated.

Acally edge guarding is linked to gimping thugh they can mean different things.
Edge guarding simply means guarding the edge. Via gimping or any other method.
Gimping is intentionally knocking the opponent away so that when they attempt to recover it fails.
For example Sonic's spring doens't kill the opponent but knocks them away enough so that their recovery will be ruined.

An average recovery would have to be something along the lines of Toon Link's recovery.
Something poor would be Link's recovery.
Something above average would belPit.
Something excellent would be ROB, Sonic, Peach and ZSS.
An average recovery covers a decent amount of horizontal and vertical distance and can be done a decent distance away from the edge.
For example Snake's and TL's recovery. They can be gmped without great difficulty but it isn't easy either. They may move in a predictable manner with a good amount of speed though they cover good distance.

A poor one means they are dedicated solely to horizontal/vertical so once they are placed in any situation below or too far away from the edge they'll die. They don't require much gimping. Ike is a prime example.

Above average is Pit since it looks very good but can still be gimped.
Once he uses his double jumps and starts his ^B hitting him again will mean he needs to ^B and will fall a bit before beginning his recovery.

ROB is an excellent example of a great recovery. No matter what you do he will never die from being edge guarded, he MUST get killed from an attack that is gauranteed to KO.

Sonic is slightly lesser since if he loses his duble jump he can have a little bit of difficulty.

I hope I've been more clear.

, how many characters are actually "ungimpable"? I heard it all; From the more apparent recoveries of MK, Pit, G&W, Pikachu, ROB and Sonic to the questionable Sheik, Zelda, Snake, Wario, Jiggly and Samus, down again to the more controversial TL, Lucas, Peach, DDD, Marth and Ike to the downright confounding Falcon, DK, Yoshi, Ness, ZSS, etc. You get my point. Basically everyones 2 cents, including mine, all comes down to complete subjectivity and personal bias. Who am I/are you to draw the line? And do Peach and ZSS really have ' above average' recoveries that cannot be gimped? Considering Peach's abysmal second jump and ZSS's reliance on tethers (yes, I am well aware of the existence of their abilities to float and use downB, respectively), I believe your claim is far from absolute. Who would you say has an 'average' recovery? Squirtle? Charizard? TL? I don't mean to sound condescending at all, but I feel I still have to state the obvious: whatever your opinion may be, you will always find staunch resistance (as I am right now) to any claim you may present. That said, do you still believe that Peach and ZSS are ungimpable? Are they an unstoppable force---on par with that of MK----when off the stage? Should I just hang back and wait for their inevitable return, since after all, their ungimpable? [/quote
Yes. For example even if you were to interfere with ZSS she could perform her unique footstool in order to cross the distance of FD when you attempt to edge guard via her down B.Almost all the characters will be above the ledge when they attempt to recover.

For ZSS and Peach they can afford to be below the stage since the oppponent cannot do much about it. Not even Sonic or MK could kill them unless they made a blatant error that was easily capitalized.
Even if they made an error they usually aren't harmed greatly by it.
I may be exaggerating about ZSS a bit (i don't use her often anymore) but Peach definitely has a safe recovery.

Oh, and as I'm sure you noted later, I dismiss Jigglypuff. As for ZSS and Peach, I'm no expert on the issue and am very much open to being proven wrong.

Same.
The main reason I don't think they can fit the recovery bill is because of their recovery ability.
Peach has her float and her ^B as well as her floaty nature.
ZSS is slightly heaver so her recovery is a little poorer.
Double jump is good and coupled with her down B she can cross distances that would leave TL or Link dead.
by using it beneath she can either go for the ledge or the stage.
If youd do hit her it only bring back her down B which has good horizontla and vertical distance The only way she would die is if she were to the extreme right near the bottom of the stage a situation which is incredibly rare.

'Handful' is subjective. Jiggly, DDD, Samus, Peach, MK, Pit, ROB, G&W, and Pikachu immediately come to mind.. Hell, given the circumstances, this can easily be applicable to Wario, DK (provided not too far below the ledge), and TL using good DI; with Brawl physics, this really isn't too difficult. But, like anything else, this is all up for debate. I'm trying to avoid hypocrisy as much as possible, but I need others to point out any flaws.

Its no problem.
TL can;t be said to have a great recovery because while it looks good, the movement of his recovery means he can be gimped with little trouble. He really can't recover from too far below the ledge.
Dk is considered poor since again once he recovers if he doesn't land immediately afterwards he is vulnerable to a smash attack.
So while he looks good he needs to be exact in his movements if he is to survive. SOmething an opponent won't allow.
Wario has a good recovery since his Bike covers good horizontal amount. once he jumps (his hop is quite good) he can immmediately ^B to th lege or above.
I find it difficult unless I manage to defend the bike when Wario has used it on land.

I'm not going to delve into this very much, as you seem more familiar with Sonic's gameplay than I am (even though you could say I 'secondary' him). But besides his gimping/edgeguarding abilities, would you still call his aerial game on the stage 'devastating'? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe one of the biggest issues facing Sonic is his immense lack of priority. You can argue all the endless possibilities Sonic has going for him in the air, but that wont change any ugly truth. The notion of his uair killing at 95% is highly situational and can be telegraphed by any good player far above the stage; I know you're going to try to spring to uair for your easy kill, but how often does this actually work? Do you get it off every match? What's the actual average percentage Sonic's uair kills (not your best case scenario)? If you do manage to pull this off consistently with an average in close proximity to 95%, I would question the competency of your opponents. I won't be the one to really debate this that much though, since once again, you have more knowledge than I do in the area.

well the hint insinuates that it can surprise the opponent when he gets an early kill with an aerial.
This is supported since Sonic can get low percentage kills with his aerials and can catch an opponent off guard.

Usually the Uair works best as an edge guard for opponents approaching from the air. Even Ike can be subject to abuse when he ^B since Sonic's spring launches him up quickly.

Of course Sonic has horribly priority. the only moves that have decent is he Fair and Uair (Uair has a small disjointed box at the clapping part)
The priority only becomes an major issue when he goes head on against an opponent which is usually not the case since Sonic usually attacks after another attack so that the situation presented will prevent a clash. Not guaranteed but it does work.

Most of my argument is based on surprise since many do not expect Sonic tokill them with an aerial due to his lack of priority.
Or they get stuck on his lack of oriority that they forget that his aerials are usually performed after they have been hit or in a situation where its difficult to hit Sonic.
i've only been overprioritized when I was over agressive and within the range of my opponents attacks. Something that doesn't occur oo oftenunless I play Luigi or MK.

Okay, juggernaut frames. So sue me (but thank you for pointing that out).

I want your shirt, your shoes, your belt and pants. you can keep the underwear.
The Jewelry is minde though.

Yea, there really isn't that much hard data in their. But that's been all done before by so many others; if you find any raw evidence contradictory to my claims, you know what to do. I guess I was going more for readability and holding the reader's interest with the irrelevant sexual references, odd gags, and whatnot.

If you are going to try to pull in someone with your argument. you have to space the references and odd gags. They seem clustered together.
Now I must go I have a birthday party to attend =(




10char

 

[R0cket]

Wario's next

 

[biohazard930]

Does anyone happen to have the hints that were used for previous characters? I'm just curious as to what they were since I did not come in at the beginning.

 

[Creo]

I just wanted to stop by this thread and compliment on it. I think this is a cool inovative(sp?)idea and a good way for insight into characters tier placement(I know it's not a list). I can not believe I didn't see this before.

Anyways, I'm going with Jigglypuff or Luigi.

*I'd love to get into the debates or whatnot, but I'm not up to date and won't be because my computers down...oh well. I'll reply to what I can.

 

[Vaul]

No it was an unintentional error on the creators part.
After several tests by many other people they found that only Charizard and Marth could perform an infinite on them.
Not sure about DK's cargo hold I might have not seen it.
The other characters can't pummel and chain grab Ness and Lucas.
Only Marth and Charizard and DK.

..............

Actually edge guarding is linked to gimping though they can mean different things.
Edge guarding simply means guarding the edge. Via gimping or any other method.
Gimping is intentionally knocking the opponent away so that when they attempt to recover it fails.
For example Sonic's spring doens't kill the opponent but knocks them away enough so that their recovery will be ruined.

An average recovery would have to be something along the lines of Toon Link's recovery.
Something poor would be Link's recovery.
Something above average would belPit.
Something excellent would be ROB, Sonic, Peach and ZSS.
An average recovery covers a decent amount of horizontal and vertical distance and can be done a decent distance away from the edge.
For example Snake's and TL's recovery. They can be gmped without great difficulty but it isn't easy either. They may move in a predictable manner with a good amount of speed though they cover good distance.

A poor one means they are dedicated solely to horizontal/vertical so once they are placed in any situation below or too far away from the edge they'll die. They don't require much gimping. Ike is a prime example.

Above average is Pit since it looks very good but can still be gimped.
Once he uses his double jumps and starts his ^B hitting him again will mean he needs to ^B and will fall a bit before beginning his recovery.

ROB is an excellent example of a great recovery. No matter what you do he will never die from being edge guarded, he MUST get killed from an attack that is gauranteed to KO.

Sonic is slightly lesser since if he loses his duble jump he can have a little bit of difficulty.

Regarding Ness and the chaingrabs, I'll have to research that more later tonight when I can devote some time to it (not like this reply isnt time consuming or anything...). Last time I looked into that debate was about a week and a half ago, give or take, so I'm not exactly constantly updated on the issue. I will look into it.

Concerning gimping vs edge guarding...
I understand the concept you've presented, i.e. edgeguarding being strictly confined to the lower ledge and does not guard against recoveries coming from up high or opponents still relatively far from the stage. Yet even still, the line dividing them is far too ambiguous to truly define. When edge hogging against a recovering opponent who is trying to sweet spot the ledge, is hopping away from the stage to bair or spike the opponent considered edge guarding or gimping? In Melee you could edge guard sufficiently without being on the edge itself. Obviously, for most cases in Brawl this is nearly impossible with the new auto sweet spot, extended invincibility frames, and massive reduction to the length/time of edge hogging from rolling/attacking/getting back up onto the stage. This alone should redefine the term edge guarding as we know it. That said, I (and the rest of the Smash community for that matter) have still not accepted any one interpretation of these definitions released to me. For the time being, I will most likely assume that, in essence, they are basically trying to accomplish the same goal: preventing the opponent from returning to the stage.

Regarding the evaluation of characters' recoveries...
I'm definitely going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one. Like I stated earlier, I am reluctant to produce a distinctive 'recovery tier list', which is pretty much where this discussion is leading to. With this in mind, there are some comparative evaluations you made that I fail to see the logic applied to them. To start, you believe that Pit's recovery>both ZZS's and Peach's respective recoveries. I am assuming by 'recovery' you mean a character's double jump/multiple jumps, third jump/special recovery, tethers (if applicable), tactics such as wall jumping, wall clinging and gliding, and any other means that are deployed so as to assist with a character's recovery, including projectiles to protect said character's approach (e.g. Samus's bombs, Mario's cape, TL's boomerang, etc). Basically, I'm assuming you're NOT talking about ONLY their third jumps/special recoveries and their specific properties. I am clarifying this primarily because you describe Pit's UpB as more cosmetic than actually efficient, thus limiting his recovery potential, not to mention your stance on TL as having the model 'average' recovery (for the sake of brevity, which is unlike me, I wont go into this any further). Should this be the case, by doing so you are omitting Pit's multiple jumps and gliding ability (the first and foremost methods used with his recovery), his ability to spam projectiles from off the stage, etc. Taking this into account as well as the unique characteristics deployed by Peach and ZSS, I find it very, very hard to believe that the ladies' recoveries are not only superior to Pit's, but are ranked as excellent, on par with the likes of Metaknight and ROB. If you were to post this claim in the Pit forums......I don't even want to think about it. Use your imagination as to what the common response would be.

*****But then you do the seemingly impossible and take a step further, topping yourself. According to your response concerning my question as to how one should respond to a recovering Peach or ZSS, you defend that theses two characters are UNGIMPABLE and I am better off using my time by merely staying on the stage and patiently await their inevitable return. You measure the risks of attempting to interfere with their recoveries as outweighing the benefits of putting additional pressure on the opponent. Once again, this is yet another example of the wide spread abuse of the term 'ungimpable'. By ungimpable, I'm interpreting your claim to be that both Peach and ZSS, once knocked off the stage, are physically impossible to be stopped from returning to the stage. No questions asked, no exceptions; it will ALWAYS be a lose-lose situation for the contender who controls the stage against these two. I feel compelled to reiterate that in Brawl (as opposed to Melee, but similar to S64), in order to successfully gimp/edge guard against an opponent, one must be more aggressive off the stage and add additional pressure wherever possible. By your definition, if an 'excellent' recovery is synonymous with an ungimpable one, what possible alternative does one have besides racking enough damage (with 'enough' meaning a f****** lot in Brawl) to get a star KO, or at least to the point where they have enough damage to be knocked back and be unable to reach the stage (which is borderline impossible with the likes of ROB, MK and Pit)? If ZSS and Peach seriously cannot be touched off the stage without tremendous consequences, what's to stop these character from dominating the Brawl scene with the likes of Snake and MK? I really find all this to be highly implausible. I still maintain that the risk of interfering with their recoveries is not only possible, but the benefits certainly outweigh the risk. But once again, we can agree to disagree.

I think that about sums it up. Anyone else please feel free to pick a side and join in the fun.

 

[joenopride]

Marth and Wario can both make sense, but they aren't THAT underestimated.

 

[Pure-???]

ROB is an excellent example of a great recovery. No matter what you do he will never die from being edge guarded, he MUST get killed from an attack that is gauranteed to KO.

Untrue. ROB is very gimpable because his Recovery does not recharge after being hit. if launched repeatedly it is possible for him to lose the ability to recover. gimping him is difficult, but not impossible.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Regarding Ness and the chaingrabs, I'll have to research that more later tonight when I can devote some time to it (not like this reply isnt time consuming or anything...). Last time I looked into that debate was about a week and a half ago, give or take, so I'm not exactly constantly updated on the issue. I will look into it.[/quote[
You can find the debate in the Ness boards.

Concerning gimping vs edge guarding...
I understand the concept you've presented, i.e. edgeguarding being strictly confined to the lower ledge and does not guard against recoveries coming from up high or opponents still relatively far from the stage. Yet even still, the line dividing them is far too ambiguous to truly define. When edge hogging against a recovering opponent who is trying to sweet spot the ledge, is hopping away from the stage to bair or spike the opponent considered edge guarding or gimping? In Melee you could edge guard sufficiently without being on the edge itself. Obviously, for most cases in Brawl this is nearly impossible with the new auto sweet spot, extended invincibility frames, and massive reduction to the length/time of edge hogging from rolling/attacking/getting back up onto the stage. This alone should redefine the term edge guarding as we know it. That said, I (and the rest of the Smash community for that matter) have still not accepted any one interpretation of these definitions released to me. For the time being, I will most likely assume that, in essence, they are basically trying to accomplish the same goal: preventing the opponent from returning to the stage.

Sorry I made an error.I meant to say the edge guarding includes gimping into itself. They aren't strictly separated but related.
With edge guading you are simply defending the edge on ground or from the air. Gimping refers to simply lessening the recovering ability of the opponent. It doens't kill them.
Edge guarding also covers this but can also include lethal edge gaurding in which the aim is to kill rather than gimp.

Is it clearer?

Regarding the evaluation of characters' recoveries...
I definitely going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one. Like I stated earlier, I am reluctant to produce a distinctive 'recovery tier list', which is pretty much where this discussion is leading to.

Actually its more like a generalization not necessarily a tier list.
But going along with the argument.

With this in mind, there are some comparative evaluations you made that I fail to see the logic applied to them. To start, you believe that Pit's recovery>both ZZS's and Peach's respective recoveries. I am assuming by 'recovery' you mean a character's double jump/multiple jumps, third jump/special recovery, tethers (if applicable), tactics such as wall jumping, wall clinging and gliding, and any other means that are deployed so as to assist with a character's recovery, including projectiles to protect said character's approach (e.g. Samus's bombs, Mario's cape, TL's boomerang, etc). Basically, I'm assuming you're NOT talking about ONLY their third jumps/special recoveries and their specific properties. I am clarifying this primarily because you describe Pit's UpB as more cosmetic than actually efficient, thus limiting his recovery potential, not to mention your stance on TL as having the model 'average' recovery (for the sake of brevity, which is unlike me, I wont go into this any further). Should this be the case, by doing so you are omitting Pit's multiple jumps and gliding ability (the first and foremost methods used with his recovery), his ability to spam projectiles from off the stage, etc. Taking this into account as well as the unique characteristics deployed by Peach and ZSS, I find it very, very hard to believe that the ladies' recoveries are not only superior to Pit's, but are ranked as excellent, on par with the likes of Metaknight and ROB. If you were to post this claim in the Pit forums......I don't even want to think about it. Use your imagination as to what the common response would be.

No since i mentioned Zamus' recovery via her ^B and her somewhat special toadstool jump that sends her across tne entire length of FD.

It takes into account manipulation of all their special moves for example C4 jumping and Ness and Lucas' ability to use their magnet to stall their descent and their ability to zapjump.

The criteria of it is rather generic.
It works simply on.
How does it work?
Does it require the opponent to be far away to be successful? Or is it successful when up close?
What situations can it be used and how easy can it be done?
Is it quick or slow?
Does it have special properties?
How a great are the effects of manipulating the special for recovery?
How predictable is the recovery?
If predictable is it easy to hit? For example Sonic's spring is predctable but the nature of it as well as the speed make it very difficult to punish.

*****But then you do the seemingly impossible and take a step further, topping yourself.

I am not familiar with the phrase.

According to your response concerning my question as to how one should respond to a recovering Peach or ZSS, you defend that theses two characters are UNGIMPABLE and I am better off using my time by merely staying on the stage and patiently await their inevitable return. You measure the risks of attempting to interfere with their recoveries as outweighing the benefits of putting additional pressure on the opponent. Once again, this is yet another example of the wide spread abuse of the term 'ungimpable'. By ungimpable, I'm interpreting your claim to be that both Peach and ZSS, once knocked off the stage, are physically impossible to be stopped from returning to the stage. No questions asked, no exceptions; it will ALWAYS be a lose-lose situation for the contender who controls the stage against these two. I feel compelled to reiterate that in Brawl (as opposed to Melee, but similar to S64), in order to successfully gimp/edge guard against an opponent, one must be more aggressive off the stage and add additional pressure wherever possible. By your definition, if an 'excellent' recovery is synonymous with an ungimpable one, what possible alternative does one have besides racking enough damage (with 'enough' meaning a f****** lot in Brawl) to get a star KO, or at least to the point where they have enough damage to be knocked back and be unable to reach the stage (which is borderline impossible with the likes of ROB, MK and Pit)? If ZSS and Peach seriously cannot be touched off the stage without tremendous consequences, what's to stop these character from dominating the Brawl scene with the likes of Snake and MK? I really find all this to be highly implausible. I still maintain that the risk of interfering with their recoveries is not only possible, but the benefits certainly outweigh the risk. But once again, we can agree to disagree.

The recovery is only one factor in the viability of a character in tournament play.
For example Snake's recovery can be gimped simply by grabbing him without harming him during his recovery. He will won't be capable of using his recovery again.
However his ground game and setups make it hard to get him off the stage.
The recovering ability does not define the characters ability to do well in the tournament scene.
Otherwise Snake would not be defined as extremely viable in the tpournament scene adn characters like Marth would not be considered top tier.
The idea of ungimpable isn't necessarily meaning impossible to kill during recovery. However the cons of attempting to do so far outweigh that of the pros and gimping becomes extremely difficult or if one does manage to land a hit in an attempt at gimping the results are rather meager.For example striking ROB during his recovery is usually fruitless even if it is done (due to the massive amount of vertical and horizontal distance ROB can cover its difficult.)

I think that about sums it up. Anyone else please feel free to pick a side and join in the fun.

Well I am sorry but I have to go for some time.
I think i;ve contracted something or another. I'll respond to you once I feel better.

 

[MiraiGen]

Untrue. ROB is very gimpable because his Recovery does not recharge after being hit. if launched repeatedly it is possible for him to lose the ability to recover. gimping him is difficult, but not impossible.

So incredibly wrong.

ROB's main advantage is the fact that he can fly for days, months, years. He doesn't have to get hit at all if he doesn't want to, considering his flight gives him the advantage to arrive above or at a 90% angle. Most recoveries put you directly in front of or above but very vulnerable.

So saying that ROB's is gimpable because "it's possible" for him to lose his upB is like saying "It's possible" for Metaknight to be gimped as well.

 

[Earthbound360]

DK CANNOT CG Ness

It's escapable. ONly 2 characters can CG him. This wont kills his tier list placement.

 

[MyRevenge.]

Maybe Yoshi? Dunno...

 

[manhunter098]

Untrue. ROB is very gimpable because his Recovery does not recharge after being hit. if launched repeatedly it is possible for him to lose the ability to recover. gimping him is difficult, but not impossible.

ROB can also attack in the middle of his recovery, and essentially go on the offensive as he recovers. He has 3 aerials as well that have relatively high priority and furthermore he can use his boost while doing aerials, so he can continue going upwards as he does say a neutral A, which covers him from all directions. These options, plus the option to simply go up very high and then use a couple bursts of his jet to go to the middle of the stage make the certainty of ROB recovering when in the hands of a skilled player very high, and if you do things correctly for most characters, it will be nearly to stop ROB from recovering.

 

[Mr.Trite]

When will this update come >:O?!!

 

[Stealth Raptor]

It always comes on Tuesdays..... ie never soon enough.

 

[TheStig]

next 1 better be jiggs, but i'll probably be.... i dunno peach?

 

[ShadowLink84]

DK CANNOT CG Ness

It's escapable. ONly 2 characters can CG him. This wont kills his tier list placement.

Thankies I wasn't too sure since my memory is unclear.

What about Lucas? Its only Charizard that can CG him right?

 

[Megavitamins]

I just thought of this, but Zllda sounds like this week's character. When is it gonna go up anyway?

 

[MysticKenji]

Thankies I wasn't too sure since my memory is unclear.

What about Lucas? Its only Charizard that can CG him right?

I'm pretty sure Marth is the one who CGs Lucas.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Thanks kenji

 

[Grandeza]

I'm pretty sure it's both Marth and Charizard.

 

[shrodekill]

DDD is my guess, but its not a very confident one

 

[BigRick]

next week char is wario IMO

- deadly air game
- b move used to deal with long range attacks: bike (although its not very safe vs falco)
- his recovery is gimpable, especially without the bike

 

[Wuss]

I think it's lucas. Lucas's air game is absolutely ridiculous. I played one at a tourney and he took me by complete surprise. His recovery is definitely gimpable, just not sure if it's decent enough to begin with.

 

[KonoK]

I think it's lucas. Lucas's air game is absolutely ridiculous. I played one at a tourney and he took me by complete surprise. His recovery is definitely gimpable, just not sure if it's decent enough to begin with.

Really? I thought it was hard to gimp Lucas, with his Zap Jump, Magnet Pull, and even his
PKT2 in the way.

 

[Pure-???]

next week char is wario IMO

- deadly air game
- b move used to deal with long range attacks: bike (although its not very safe vs falco)
- his recovery is gimpable, especially without the bike

wario is already the most popular guess.