Smash Balls = New Play Style, Second Tourney Ruling?

[fr0st2k]

SmashBalls. Obviously a hot topic on the boards.

People are arguing that there is no way that smash balls are going to be in tourneys.

Well, to a point, I agree. I believe any item degrades the battle and instills a random amount of luck into the fight. This is a shame, and of course why no one plays with items in Melee.



However...

the smash ball is a totally different kind of item. It floats in from the top of the screen. It has to be attacked multiple times and flies away once hit. Once the item is obtained, it can be knocked off of the person.

What do all these things mean? Well, People argue that the smash ball is cheap because it gives an instant or freebie KO. But ... what about the battle for the smash ball? Isnt that a test of skill? What about the ability to dodge certain FS's. What about the skill involved knock the ball out of your enemies hands.

Yes there are a few smashes that are quite different. Bowsers FS for instance can be used immediately, with no penalty or danger, and it gives him a huge advantage. As opposed to Marths, Ikes, MK, or Zelda, who do instant attacks, which are hit or misses.

IMO, both of those have their advantages and disadvantages. This is slightly important, but not as important as what it means to actually get the smash ball.

The idea here is to have 2 types of tourneys. The first would be normal, no items. The second is to play with the smash ball item.

The rules can be different. For instance. The stock can be raised. Perhaps it can be put on timed mode.

The skill in the Smash Ball tourneys would be based around typical fighting skill, but also around strategies of obtaining and preventing the other player from obtaining the smash ball.

Discuss?

 

[TheRooster]

Hmm, you sir, raise an interesting point.

I could very much see a sort of alternate tourney for people who arent purist/super compettetive .

I'd join this circut as well.

It would be like Pro football and Arena football

 

[YoshiKnight]

I like this idea :D

 

[masterspeaks]

You can host any tourney format you want, it doesn't mean that anyone will show up.

 

[TheRooster]

You can host any tourney format you want, it doesn't mean that anyone will show up.

Why so pessimistic?

Smashballs are a very on-the-fence issue. I could see lots of people entering a tourney with them on. This is way different from say, a super-sudden death tournament.

 

[Kirin]

I like the idea, lets you use the awesome final smashes every once in a while.

 

[Zek]

Smash Balls are more "skillful" than regular items. But they're also much more powerful - a smash ball going to one player due to a random advantage is much, much more likely to turn the tide of a match than one item. And I'm more concerned about the balance repercussions. It's painfully obvious that certain FSes are better for 1v1 than others, and there doesn't seem to be any correlation with character effectiveness. I also think it's just going to get old after a while, they won't be nearly as interesting after the hundredth time you set one off.

 

[Sagacity]

The skill in the Smash Ball tourneys would be based around typical fighting skill, but also around strategies of obtaining and preventing the other player from obtaining the smash ball.

Discuss?

This has already been discussed thoroughly in a lot of other threads.

The typical consensus seems to be that some characters seem to have some obviously weak FS, others have some very good ones. A lot of people don't have the game yet, so we can wait and see.

The other issue brought up is that the smash ball seems to appear randomly, which could mean having luck influence a match (which competitive players obviously don't like). To eliminate luck in getting the smash ball, it would probably need to have a set spawn time/interval and location.

As someone said, you can host a tournament however the heck you want, but expect competitive players to prefer their raw 1v1 gameplay.

 

[JakedRooster]

Smash balls are novelty, you learn to dodge most of them in the first few hours of playing, they don't require any skill to use, and slow the game down considerably.

Example: Olimar gets his FS and uses it, Robot jumps up an flies the whole time the smash is going on. The FS ends, and no damage is taken.

Everyone will dodge them unless you're Link/Meta/Marth, etc. They slow the game down, plain and simple.

Host your tourney how you please, but I don't think there is any room for the item in comp. play.

EDIT: for typo.

 

[TK Wolf]

I was under the impression that to start out there would be tourneys with and without items.

The best approach is to first really learn the game to the core and experiment with all options (items, smashballs, no items, etc), and after a lot of experience with them, making decisions about them. I mean, there were items-on tourneys in Melee for 2 years, right? Give things a chance. If they mess things up, we'll know, but assuming they'll be bad and removing them right off the bat is rash and careless.

 

[kitsuneboy_geoff]

Note to the OP:
Yeah, those points you made about battles to obtain smash balls and to learn how to dodge Final Smashes? Well, those apply to almost all the items.

So, you know, if you want Smash Balls on, then you might as well just turn all (or most) of the items on, right?

So, for tournament play, I can guarantee most pro smashers will give this one a big no.

 

[MewDorf]

You can host any tourney format you want, it doesn't mean that anyone will show up.

On top of that most of the big tournies will probably not include them as that is the style in which they play. I however, think it would make for more interesting battles.

 

[Zant3tsuken]

Note to the OP:
Yeah, those points you made about battles to obtain smash balls and to learn how to dodge Final Smashes? Well, those apply to almost all the items.

This is simply not true, in normal circumstances either character has fair shot at the smash ball and the OP is correct in saying that the battle over the thing is entertaining as hell. The problem actually lies in their power. The importance of the smash ball can promptly remove one or two stocks from the game a handful of seconds, destroying the flow of the game. This problem is compounded by the added fact that the spawn is still essentially random in time and place, and it has the person recovering from the edge or even respawning at either as disctinct advantage or disadvantage depending on when it happens, which is entirely random.

Add to that and the fact that some peoples Smashes are horrible and others can be avoided well enough with practice (and often by flying characters). If all Final Smashes were more like say... Wario-man or along similar lines in effects with each other then I would be more inclined to agree.

 

[Losnar]

Hmm, you sir, raise an interesting point.

I could very much see a sort of alternate tourney for people who arent purist/super compettetive .

I wouldn't call them purists. Purists would play the game at default settings, with all inclusions. (The game in it's purest form)

 

[roguebanshee]

To do a Smash Ball tourney, you'd need a different structure. A basic Single-elimination tournament will be too open to luck.

A Round-robin or a Swiss system could be alternatives that help eliminate item luck and/or inherent character/stage disadvantages for the initial rounds. You could then finish off with the top scorers doing a No-Item Single-elimination standard to determine the winner. Or you could just use the RR/Swiss to decide who's the winner.

 

[Patsie]

The thing is, this argument can be made with any type of item.

Essentially, you're arguing that the Smash Ball adds depth to the game; depth means a greater knowledge of the game and more skill, so why exclude it from the game?

However, all items add depth. The fact that a Smash Ball is mobile is NOT the reason for why there's a fight over it. There's a fight over it because it presents an advantage; in this respect, a lot of items have this aspect, just to a lesser degree. For instance, a Poke Ball appears in the middle of the screen in Melee. Both players want that item, however, both players also know that making a bee-line towards to that item creates a predictable movement line. As any good Smash player will tell you, predictability always gets punished. This is why mindgames are so effective: they make movements less predictable, and thus, less punishable (and more advantageous). The point is, there's still going to be a fight to get the item; if someone tries to get it, s/he'll be attacked in order to prevent the obvious advantage. Essentially, Smash Balls function exactly like items, but they're just harder to obtain. Also, almost all items are droppable and pick-upable, so that argument is really a wash.

But tournament players don't use items because of other reasons. Sure, there's a new level of depth, but that depth isn't really worth it. In fact, I would argue that as much depth as items give, they take more away. Why? When someone is using a Final Smash, the game becomes about either hitting or dodging the move. How does this take away depth? The whole metagame of attacking or defending vanishes; both players are completely focused on either making or breaking the Final Smash. So, I would argue that the Final Smash (and items in general) really take away from depth; the game becomes much more linear (as in, utilizing items) instead of varied (where you focus on effectively using your entire moveset instead of your one item). An example? When someone has the hammer in Melee, what happens? The player runs around focusing on nothing but making the most use of the item; the player without the hammer runs away. Exciting? Nope, unilateral, unnecessary, and boring. The same can be said with other FS's.

Another argument is that the game becomes extremely skewed with items. That is, the person with an item has a huge advantage. As much as you argue that it takes skill to get/use/avoid a Final Smash, you simply can't argue that luck isn't involved. For instance, you just got smashed off the screen and a Smash Ball appears. The other player has a huge advantage in getting/employing his FS, you really can't do anything about it. The position of Smash Balls is random; this definitionally means there will be luck involved. Tournament players despise luck, and for a reason: your control over the outcome of the game is taken away. Not completely, but it still is: tournament play emphasizes high levels of objectivity, and luck (FSs, items) makes it more and more subjective.

That said, anyone has whatever right they want to make their tournament involve Final Smashes. People can play with them, it's a legitimate part of the game. I'm just trying to argue for why top-level tournaments don't use them.

 

[Pikaville]

I think the alternate tourney is a good idea.I dont see why smash balls shouldn't come into competive play.(except for maybe that some are far better than others)

Oh and to the comment above.If your any good at items matches then you can make yourself more unpredicatable than you can possibly imagine with them.The whole predictable line of travel thing is totaly based on players skill with items,if someone legs it towards an item you covet then you dash,grab an item as you jump for it then whack your opponent away(with said item) as they try to grab it,then take it for yourself.Well thats what I do.(when I play items)

 

[Yuna]

The Smash Ball tournaments would boil down to Marth with His Final Smash-tournament. Anyone who wanted to stand a chance of winning would be forced into playing Marth.

This topic has already been debeating in another thread, which you should be quite aware of since you speak of how it's been debated already.

Please do not start new threads discussing something that's been discussed for a long time, in, say, a threat which has reached beyond 10 pages.

 

[Patsie]

I think the alternate tourney is a good idea.I dont see why smash balls shouldn't come into competive play.(except for maybe that some are far better than others)

Oh and to the comment above.If your any good at items matches then you can make yourself more unpredicatable than you can possibly imagine with them.The whole predictable line of travel thing is totaly based on players skill with items,if someone legs it towards an item you covet then you dash,grab an item as you jump for it then whack your opponent away(with said item) as they try to grab it,then take it for yourself.Well thats what I do.(when I play items)

I mean, I think you should read more into what I was arguing. Also, the thing you just said was the predictability I was warning against: both people in that situation head towards the item, hence they have a predictable path. You make a decent point, but I don't think it's grounded; also, I think the linear depth analysis of items that I made still stands.

 

[Rodriguezjr]

The Smash Ball tournaments would boil down to Marth with His Final Smash-tournament. Anyone who wanted to stand a chance of winning would be forced into playing Marth.

This topic has already been debeating in another thread, which you should be quite aware of since you speak of how it's been debated already.

Please do not start new threads discussing something that's been discussed for a long time, in, say, a threat which has reached beyond 10 pages.

Marth's Final Smash is easy to avoid. All you have to do is get out of his range like Link's and Toon Link's Final Smash.

 

[Losnar]

The Smash Ball tournaments would boil down to Marth with His Final Smash-tournament. Anyone who wanted to stand a chance of winning would be forced into playing Marth.

^^ Insanity

 

[Yuna]

Marth's Final Smash is easy to avoid. All you have to do is get out of his range like Link's and Toon Link's Final Smash.

1) Have you played the game?
2) Why would you want to "get out of his range" when you're behind on either percentage or stocks? You'd lose one the time ran out. Also, what makes you think the Marth wouldn't try to approach you?
3) All FS:es give you instant invincibility from the frame they're activated. Even if you can avoid them, you will have lost once someone like Marth gets the Smash Ball because you would be unable to ever approach them. You'd need to have a character with an incredibly good projectile game (of which there are few in Brawl). The second you try to approach with an aerial, Marth can just activate his FS and break through your attack. As such, the Smash Ball is also the Ultimate Camping Tool. Grab it and camp. You're going to force your opponent to approach if they're behind and they'll be forced to risk almost certain death by trying to somehow knock the Smash Ball out of you without actually aerially approaching or getting close enough for your FS to hit.
4) Marth can combo into his FS (as can Link, Young Link, Sheik and possibly Zelda). There ain't no dodging/avoiding an FS when you're getting comboed into it.
5) Marth has the FS. He can still approach you and try to knock you into the air/ground/whatever, anything to stun you long enough to combo into the FS. You cannot approach him well back without a great risk to your stock (as the FS itself inflicts, like, 70% or so damage and then KO you, so it's highly unlikely you're ever going to survive it). If you hit Marth, he'll possibly lose the FS (some characters require only one single smack, others require three aerials). If Marth hits you, you're dead.
6) Marth is already an incredibly good character with a great aerial approach, combos, finishers and other broken ****s in general. Add to this his godly FS and competitive FS-play will boil down pretty much to picking him or 1-2 other characters, at most.

 

[DeuceBlade]

can you avoid marth's final smash by grabbing the ledge?

 

[S623]

It would be like Pro football and Arena football

Except Arena Football sucks

No, but truthfully, I like the idea. But what about FS's like Mario's, PT's, or Samus' where it's just a huge near unavoidable attack that will almost always result in an insta-kill?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marth's Final Smash is easy to avoid. All you have to do is get out of his range like Link's and Toon Link's Final Smash.

All Marth has to do is hit you with a fair or d-tilt (two of his safest easily spammable moves) to combo into his FS. Any average Marth player can land a single fair and then press B.

Stop saying that it's easy to dodge, because even though the FS itself is predictable, it is also very fast and thus very easy to combo into.

 

[Yuna]

can you avoid marth's final smash by grabbing the ledge?

And do what? Stall forever, even though that's not even possible anymore as there's a period of time during which you can't let go after you've grabbed the ledge?

And lose on time because Marth's ahead in stock? And get edgeguarded with a D-tilt/Fsmash/Fair and then if you try to get up to avoid it, possibly be grabbed by Marth? How is that a viable tactic against Marth?

 

[ROOOOY!]

Doing a Final Smash is more down to luck than skill (where the smash ball spawns and that)
And also, some Final smashes are better than others. Starstorm seems far worse than say, Giga Bowser, but then I haven't played the game, so I can't judge from anything but videos.

 

[Libomasus]

Wow, I actually didn't think of using it to camp. It lasts forever, its like getting an invincibility star. Its just a horrible advantage to have moves that can negate all else.

Not like I expected Smash Balls to be used anyways, but you've sealed my mind Yuna. I always thought it was unnecessary, and really we've heard enough points about Brawl already being too campy anyways.

 

[Yuna]

Wow, I actually didn't think of using it to camp. It lasts forever, its like getting an invincibility star. Its just a horrible advantage to have moves that can negate all else.

Not like I expected Smash Balls to be used anyways, but you've sealed my mind Yuna. I always thought it was unnecessary, and really we've heard enough points about Brawl already being too campy anyways.

Great to hear. Let's hope I manage to change the minds of some of the ardent Smash Ball advocaters who can't seem to grasp the concept of "Not spamming the FS the second you get it, hence making you predictable and easy to dodge".

 

[VersatileBJN]

I was under the impression that to start out there would be tourneys with and without items.

The best approach is to first really learn the game to the core and experiment with all options (items, smashballs, no items, etc), and after a lot of experience with them, making decisions about them. I mean, there were items-on tourneys in Melee for 2 years, right? Give things a chance. If they mess things up, we'll know, but assuming they'll be bad and removing them right off the bat is rash and careless.

I agree with where you are coming from with Smash Balls, and I agree it should be tried, but Items I don't agree with you at all.

One can use logic to see that Items don't need to be tested out in competitive play. Unless all items fall the same spots at the same time, which they don't, it is random and hinders competitive play to great extents.

Smash balls seem to come from the same spot. If they didn't at all times, then that would be a problem,too. Like, suppose me and you were fighting, and a Smash ball appears right above me and far away from you. That isn't fair and waters down play.

 

[VersatileBJN]

You also got to realize that tournaments more times than not are played for money. No one wants money to given away by any terms other than pure skill in a tournament.

Now, tournaments just for fun with items on could be cool. I like how SmashBrawlRankngs is having a division for matches/tournaments with items on. Makes stuff more flexible when it comes to having a good time and being mildly competitive.

 

[PXG]

Anything that is mostly or entirely random should be banned. Competitive Smash is about skill, not exploiting random, over powered and unfair objects. The match should be about using YOUR OWN SKILL, and not relying on random factors that misdirect the flow of the fight. Items and Smash Balls make the match more about using them, and less about fighting with skill and technique.

 

[Xengri]

You can host any tourney format you want, it doesn't mean that anyone will show up.

^ This.

No one can tell you what rules to use for a tournament you're hosting.

I personally wouldn't attended a tournament with smash balls but, that doesn’t mean no one else would..

Just like item tournaments in melee.
They're rare because, anyone that normally goes to tournaments agree that items are bad but, that doesn't mean people cant host them.


And, assuming I read right.
This thread's about having smash ball tournaments as a alternative. Not why smash balls should/shouldn’t be the standard (there's already countless threads on that subject).

 

[Jack Kieser]

You know, you people keep taking about Marth's FS as unavoidable... yet, how long have we been trying to avoid it for? A couple of weeks? The majority of the videos of matches we've seen don't even USE Final Smashes, much less items. The fact of the matter is that shield camping was seen to be just as broken as Final Smashes... until people experimented, found wavedashing, and forever changed the competitive scene.

The fact of the matter is, unless we force ourselves to play with items, Final Smashes, strange stages, and everything else the game has to offer, ESPECIALLY in the competitive style, for at least a year or so, we'll never know for sure the potential Final Smashes have for tournament viability. We'll never know what the counter to Marth's Final Smash is unless we actively look for it.

Stop being so stubborn and experiment; you've already shown that the tournament scene can do it.

 

[KeyKid19]

And lose on time because Marth's ahead in stock?

Well obviously the key is to just not get behind in stock against Marth. lol Just do that and you'll be fine!

Seriously though, Yuna is right. Smash Ball Tourneys would just boil down to Marth v Marth. Sure you can argue that getting the Smash Ball is a skill or whatever, but chances are that Marth will beat nearly every other player to the Smash Ball every time one comes up. With the range of his sword and the speed he runs at, you'd be tough to get it before him EVER. With all of those things in his favor, a skilled Marth player would probably not lose a single life in a Smash Ball Tourney until he faced another skilled Marth player, and then it would just come down to luck in that match.

So yeah unless you ban Marth and a few other characters this idea won't ever come to anything.

 

[0RLY]

Okay, if you want a FS tourny, host your own. Just don't expect the majority of the players in these forums to attend. Most of us are competitive smashers so posting threads like this will most likely get you flamed. I'm open to the idea because a final smash is technically part of a character's moveset. You simply need to fulfill a certain condition to use it (breaking the random smash ball). Besides, it takes a moderate amount of skill to combo into the final smash anyways.

Characters like Marth, who has a cheap final smash compared to ROB whose final smash is easily avoided, unbalances the gameplay. This is the main point we are trying to prove. However, that's the same thing as saying Bowser's B-down sucks.

In case I confused any of you, this is merely the way I see things. Personally, I prefer FS-less tournys but FS in friendlies.

 

[KeyKid19]

You know, you people keep taking about Marth's FS as unavoidable... yet, how long have we been trying to avoid it for? A couple of weeks? The majority of the videos of matches we've seen don't even USE Final Smashes, much less items. The fact of the matter is that shield camping was seen to be just as broken as Final Smashes... until people experimented, found wavedashing, and forever changed the competitive scene.

The fact of the matter is, unless we force ourselves to play with items, Final Smashes, strange stages, and everything else the game has to offer, ESPECIALLY in the competitive style, for at least a year or so, we'll never know for sure the potential Final Smashes have for tournament viability. We'll never know what the counter to Marth's Final Smash is unless we actively look for it.

Stop being so stubborn and experiment; you've already shown that the tournament scene can do it.

I like what you're saying here, but until people find these game-changing discoveries, the competitive scene will always have the same rules and regulations. That means that a lot of people will have to do a lot of work at home to try and find these things instead of simply practicing on certain stages without items all the time, and I don't see many people bothering to find these things because they don't want to fall behind on the competitive select stages no items scene.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Again... all I hear is speculation. "Final Smash tournaments will boil down to Marth v Marth" you say?

Prove it.

Show me one Final Smash tournament where it has boiled down to Marth v. Marth. What's that? You can't? Of course you can't! We haven't HAD any Final Smash tournaments; hell, we haven't even had any REGULAR tournaments. We don't even have the American game.

This speculation is what upsets me about the people who are so adamant against changing the tournament scene for Brawl; you haven't even played our version of the game, and yet you somehow know how Final Smash tournaments that may or may not be held in the future will come out? A ) Then you should just bet some money on those future tournaments, because if you already know the outcome, then you'll make mad cash. B ) I was pretty sure that the prophet problem would end once Brawl was actually released; turns out I was wrong.

I, nor anyone else, should accept this broken logic which dictates that there is NO WAY for Final Smashes to be tournament viable when we haven't even tried. I'm not usually this black-and-white, but **** it, I'm a scientist; unless I see some proof, I'm not convinced.

 

[TheRooster]

Ugh, I don't know you guys.
I think I understand now why people ***** about playing the game before arguing about stuff like this.

I mean I've seen at least 5 different post talking about how Marth would be cheap or possibley unstoppable with a smash ball, and I can tell you that its not like that.

staying away from his smash is like avoiding someone with a beam sword. We can all do it, and the fight continues.


Oh and FYI most final smashes dont kill under 40%. Even Marths.

 

[darkNES386]

The biggest statement that can't be said enough is that this is not Melee 2.0

Some people are going to give this game a chance with items/smashballs while others are just going to instantly assume that they are broken or give certain character more of an advantage or add too much of a random factor to the game.

Does anyone know what people are saying over in Japan about smashballs and the competative scene?

We're deffinately going to have both at first. Obviously, there can only be one... but I think it's hilarious that we now have multiple ways to split the community... with items... with no items... only smashballs....

I plan to host all types of tournaments.