Smash Balls = New Play Style, Second Tourney Ruling?

[roguebanshee]

The fact that Yuna plays the game and you don't should end the arguing right there.

So far Yuna has not posted any kind of proof that he has tried to play 1v1 competitively with Smash Balls on. That alone should mean that we are to disregard his doom prophesies about Smash Ball tournaments.

What do want before I care to listen to his doom prophecies?

Several videos of 1v1 highly skilled play where Smash Balls are included. And by several I don't mean 5 or 8, I mean 30+. The Melee rules were not based on a few matches, but rather on long time experience with the game. No one has that kind of experience with Brawl and Smash Balls in a competitive setting yet, so him dismissing an alternative set of tournament rules now is extremely premature and closed-minded.

 

[MookieRah]

That makes sense. Would it be impossible for other players to also learn how to dodge, or do you think the FS is too good for that?

Well there are some things they could do to stop it; however, it's very limited. Basically if the Marth lands a single fair he could easily just combo into his final smash. This isn't exactly the same as the argument "don't get grabbed" in regards to various grab setups, because unlike throws, there is nothing a player can really do to prevent the inevitable. At least with things such as wobbling, a very controversial technique with the Ice Climbers that is an infinite, you could learn tactics to prevent it from happening, such as seperating Nana and Popo, learning how to wiggle out of grabs as fast as possible, and being aware of when you are unable to get out of the wobble.

With Marth's FS you simply cannot afford to get hit, AT ALL, and there is nothing you can do to prevent that from happening consistently. Not only that, but it gives Marth a huge pyschological advantage in the fact that if he lands one solid hit on you you lose a stock, AND if you make a mistake of attacking Marth at the wrong time he can use the invincibility frames of his final smash to counter your assault.

As you can see, that doesn't bode very well for the player who is up against Marth's final smash. It is seriously game breaking, as it in effect shuts the other players game down and causes them to lose a stock if the Marth player is aware of how to use his final smash appropriately.

 

[PXG]

So far Yuna has not posted any kind of proof that he has tried to play 1v1 competitively with Smash Balls on. That alone should mean that we are to disregard his doom prophesies about Smash Ball tournaments.

What do want before I care to listen to his doom prophecies?

Several videos of 1v1 highly skilled play where Smash Balls are included. And by several I don't mean 5 or 8, I mean 30+. The Melee rules were not based on a few matches, but rather on long time experience with the game. No one has that kind of experience with Brawl and Smash Balls in a competitive setting yet, so him dismissing an alternative set of tournament rules now is extremely premature and closed-minded.

I will say, I sort of disagree with Yuna's belief that casual tournaments would devolve into festivals of Marth FS camping. He can't prove that it would, but only assume. He cannot fairly predict how people would exploit or use FSes.

But, I think what Yuna is getting at, is that the risk should not be taken in the first place. He, myself and the other competitive believe in creating as an even fighting environment, in order to ensure as much fairness as possible.

Yuna has given us proof. Though not in the form of images or video, he and several other competitive Smashers (who have submitted material through images, videos and textual impressions) on this forum have given substantial proof against items and FSes.

I said it earlier, though Brawl is a new game, with new mechanics, there are some things that haven't changed. Yuna and the others have said it too: We don't need to play Brawl for two years to know that items like the smart bomb are too powerful, or that levels like Norfair are definitely not fit for tourney play. Some things are just blatantly obvious, to the competitive community, that they would cause a major and unfair disturbance in the battle.

Personally, I have no problem with anternative set of rules for casual players who wish to play in tournaments. All of us, even Yuna, said from the very beginning that we would help support and establish such a community. However, we are going to warn you of the possible exploitation and unfairness that may ensue. Also, because of our way of playing and our beliefs on what competitive Smash is, we do not wish to take part in playing in your tournaments.

If you can't at least see some reason or logic in that, than I don't know what else to tell you

 

[PXG]

Browser error caused a double post....

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yuna, WHY are you being so argumentative? As of a few pages ago, the concept that I had put forth had nothing to do with your scene. You haven't, as PXG has said above, said anything about pointing out flaws to fix: you've been deliberately trying to shut the concept down. That's all that epic-sized posts and incessant yelling does.

We aren't even going to be near you! The closest the new scene would be to you is a separate thread (or if it ever gets large enough to warrant, sub-forum) in the tournament forum! The only time we would ever be in same room with you is possibly at a Smash Fest hundreds of people large, which doesn't happen often enough to warrant your responses.

I already stated that I wanted the arguing to stop, the incessant flaming and belittling. You keep on going! Stop it already! We get it; your thoughts are duly noted, and will be considered in the future. There. Enough.

Besides, you and your posts probably will end up scaring off ANYONE who does want to actually discuss the future of these tournaments. I've already had someone come to me on AIM. We're planning on working a lot of things out soon. But, I need to feel as though I can also use the help of the Smash community, which you obviously are denying me by making ridiculously long posts and belittling and demeaning words.

In the immortal words of Sir William Wheaton: "Don't be a ****."

 

[Rodriguezjr]

First, don't be ********. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142648 All Marth has to do to ensure that he won't die is activate the FS while he's grounded. He stops at the end of the stage (with all his FS lag being cancelled btw).

Second, your forgetting that...Marth can COMBO INTO IT. He's not just going to activate the FS as soon as you get in range, he's going to poke you with a d-tilt or fair so he can link it together. He could also just camp and wait for you to mess up.

Third, going to the ledge against Marth is a very bad idea. You do realize that his f-smash and d-tilt do still hit the ledge right? The saving grace against Marth's edgeguarding is the autosweetspot, but going straight to the ledge (which you can't let go of immediately btw) is just begging him to poke at you when your invincibility frames run out.

And against Ike, Marth can simply camp and wait for Ike to do almost any attack and hit him in the lag. Marth is already better than Ike at the range game, but this just makes it even better.


Almost all of these situations for Marth can also be applied to Link and Toon Link, because their FSes are also very fast.

Sonic gets to use his FS as both a means of stalling, and as an extremely easy way to kill you.

So yeah, FSes are not nearly as easy to avoid as you think.

Alright, first off I did not know that since I haven't seen it being discussed much where I hang out at other message boards. Next, don't go calling your fellow members retarted for one mistake, respect them.

I'm sure any pro facing a pro Marth would know what they are about to face and encounter. The same goes for facing a Link, Sonic, and others. Each Final Smash has its own strengths and weakness. I'm also sure a pro player would study what kind of attacks each character they can expect to see when facing them.

 

[GhostAnime]

This thread is spectacular with all the idiots I have put on my ignore list. Pages and pages of Yuna shutting down all the Jack Kieser & SAMaine posts.

putting people on your ignore list simply because they want to play a different way is beyond immature.

Omg, we are using Marth's FS as the prime example because of his inherent speed and aerials, that aid him in breaking smash ball and abusing it easiest. If you want other examples please tell me how someone can effectively evade a landmaster, or air dodge samus's FS screen ****.

.. i'm on your side, man.

I'm sure any pro facing a pro Marth would know what they are about to face and encounter. The same goes for facing a Link, Sonic, and others. Each Final Smash has its own strengths and weakness. I'm also sure a pro player would study what kind of attacks each character they can expect to see when facing them.

so, what about kirby's final smash? what about bowser's?

also, nobody is debating the random factor.

 

[Jack Kieser]

also, nobody is debating the random factor.

I think that's because those of us who are actively working on this project know that with item play comes some randomness; it's not debatable. Those working towards an acceptable item playstyle have accepted this fact and are working to make randomness as controllable as possible within our capabilities.

 

[Rodriguezjr]

so, what about kirby's final smash? what about bowser's?

also, nobody is debating the random factor.

By studying both of their Final Smashes, players should able to figure out how to avoid their Final Smashes. As of now, we might not know much. But, as what I know now, the players facing them will also have to figure out a way to stall for time and figure out a way to knock the Smash Balls out of them.

 

[Dark Sonic]

By studying both of their Final Smashes, players should able to figure out how to avoid their Final Smashes.

Bowser's is unavoidable because he doesn't actually hit you with his FS. He just turns into Gigabowser, who doesn't flinch and covers a fourth of the stage.

Kirby's can only be avoided by hanging on the ledge during its activation, but any smart player will simply hold onto the FS and poke at you while your on the ledge. He'll force you to get up, and there really isn't anything you can do about it.

As of now, we might not know much. But, as what I know now, the players facing them will also have to figure out a way to stall for time and figure out a way to knock the Smash Balls out of them.

The only way to do so is to stay completely out of the FS range. Against Marth, that means never being in lag. Which basically means no attacking unless your are absolutely sure it will hit, because otherwise you just eat a FS. Going to the ledge is a bad idea.

We've already established that FSes are broken, for more than one reason. That's not what we're talking about right now.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Dark Sonic is completely right. As of right now, it has been (repeatedly) established that Final Smashes are not yet viable for tournament play. Right now, we're more concerned with item testing than with Final Smashes. This community is an inventive bunch; I'm sure some ways down the road, we'll figure something out to somehow make Final Smashes viable... but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

[Rodriguezjr]

Bowser's is unavoidable because he doesn't actually hit you with his FS. He just turns into Gigabowser, who doesn't flinch and covers a fourth of the stage.

Kirby's can only be avoided by hanging on the ledge during its activation, but any smart player will simply hold onto the FS and poke at you while your on the ledge. He'll force you to get up, and there really isn't anything you can do about it.


The only way to do so is to stay completely out of the FS range. Against Marth, that means never being in lag. Which basically means no attacking unless your are absolutely sure it will hit, because otherwise you just eat a FS. Going to the ledge is a bad idea.

We've already established that FSes are broken, for more than one reason. That's not what we're talking about right now.

Well, so far the only way I know that both's Final Smash won't be as effective is if you have a very low damage percentage and depending on the character you use. If you face a Giga Bowser, you can always play coward with Meta Knight, Pit, and Charizard and glide below the stage making it a risk for the Giga Bowser to try to attack you from below the stage and keep doing that to waste time. Then are other possible ways that have yet to be discovered as soon as more people start experimenting ways to do so.

 

[Jack Kieser]

**** double posting node errors... disregard this.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Well, so far the only way I know that both's Final Smash won't be as effective is if you have a very low damage percentage and depending on the character you use. If you face a Giga Bowser, you can always play coward with Meta Knight, Pit, and Charizard and glide below the stage making it a risk for the Giga Bowser to try to attack you from below the stage and keep doing that to waste time. Then are other possible ways that have yet to be discovered.

Going to take a stab in the dark here and assume you've never played.
Gliding, as you're well aware, does not last forever. You have to come up eventually.
GigaBowser does not last forever either. However, when you DO come up, you're forced to hold the ledge for a certain amount of time, a time which he can use ANY of his attacks on you, and most likely hit you by the time the few frames of invincibility wear off.

*Waves at Sonic Wave* Hiii =D!

As for Kirby's. You just need to be within a certain RANGE of the little pink Chef, and you're sucked in. We've already told you that you have to come up from gliding eventually, and Kirby will take the exact same advantage GigaBowser will.

Even worse, Kirby jumps off the ledge, DAirs you, and then when you respawn, he'll use his FS.

Now wouldn't that suck?

Now, I really think we shouldn't discourage the idea of the Casual Competition League. I personally think its a great idea, and it promotes the health of both the Casual and True Competitive Scene, and help establish SSBB as a huge staple in gaming, and more than likely promoting future additions to the series.

We should really stop the arguments and just work towards the construction of a league everyone(Who participates) will be happy with.
-DD

 

[Jack Kieser]

DarkDragoon... your support is much appreciated. ^_^. And 'Casual Competition League' is actually a really good name. I'll make sure to keep that in mind.

 

[Rodriguezjr]

Going to take a stab in the dark here and assume you've never played.
Gliding, as you're well aware, does not last forever. You have to come up eventually.
GigaBowser does not last forever either. However, when you DO come up, you're forced to hold the ledge for a certain amount of time, a time which he can use ANY of his attacks on you, and most likely hit you by the time the few frames of invincibility wear off.

*Waves at Sonic Wave* Hiii =D!

As for Kirby's. You just need to be within a certain RANGE of the little pink Chef, and you're sucked in. We've already told you that you have to come up from gliding eventually, and Kirby will take the exact same advantage GigaBowser will.

Even worse, Kirby jumps off the ledge, DAirs you, and then when you respawn, he'll use his FS.

Now wouldn't that suck?

Now, I really think we shouldn't discourage the idea of the Casual Competition League. I personally think its a great idea, and it promotes the health of both the Casual and True Competitive Scene, and help establish SSBB as a huge staple in gaming, and more than likely promoting future additions to the series.

We should really stop the arguments and just work towards the construction of a league everyone(Who participates) will be happy with.
-DD

Well I just admitted earlier I haven't played Brawl yet but, with experimenting each Final Smash and find out how long those with transformations lasts chances are you can avoid being hit easily while being aware of the player using the character. I've seen the gliding ability lasting a long while in a video at the Hyrule Temple stage and glided all over the entire stage. It would be more wise for the Kirby user to use his FS while you have a high percentage of damage and using it while you are close to him than repawning back into the stage while you have 0% of damage and won't be as knocked back far.

 

[Link he come to town...]

I don't think final smashes should be included in the current competitive scene, Yuna made really good points on the first few pages about them. This is also why I don't play competitive though, I'd be for that casual competitive idea though. After all I only play to test skill a couple times when I play my friends, unless they want to keep playing like that.

 

[Egret]

. This community is an inventive bunch; I'm sure some ways down the road, we'll figure something out to somehow make Final Smashes viable... but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Yes, we could remove all incentive for winning or have tournaments composed of dittos of whoever has the best final smash but I don't know how popular that would be.

 

[The Great Leon]

Smash Balls would be unfair for those who only wished to play Samus/Zamus. Its comparable to forcing Sheiks to play as Zelda in Melee

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yes, we could remove all incentive for winning or have tournaments composed of dittos of whoever has the best final smash but I don't know how popular that would be.

I hate to say it, but I really don't understand what you mean by that.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yes, we could remove all incentive for winning or have tournaments composed of dittos of whoever has the best final smash but I don't know how popular that would be.

Wrong arguement buddy. We've already stated that FSes are bad for now, and probably will still be bad in the future. However, what we are talking about is using this "casual competative league" to make the transition between casual and competative much smoother and more common. Smash Balls may not even be included at the start of this (though they might be more willing to test them out than we are.)

If there really is a counter for it like some people are argueing, this new community would be the one most likely to test this possiblity. It won't have to directly affect the current competative scene, which I think is a great plus. Instead, FSes and items in general will simply be part of their own community, that exists as a fusion of what is currently two nearly opposite styles of play. Imagine what kind of bridge that would build between us. Imagine how much the competative scene would grow if there was just a more encouraging way of entering. And the new "casual competative league" itself would become a safe haven for people that want to try something new, but not stray too far from their roots.

Smash Balls would be unfair for those who only wished to play Samus/Zamus. Its comparable to forcing Sheiks to play as Zelda in Melee

Actually, you can choose which one of them you want to play at the start, and you can also freely change from Samus to Zamus. Unfortunately this process doesn't work backwards, but that's really not the best arguement.

 

[Spellman]

A Smash Ball tournament would require that you ignore the fact that the Smash Ball creates an "cheap K.O." and accept that the competition is about getting the Smash Ball. Which is fine.

If people want Smash Ball and/or item based tournaments, they will be made, but it'll take some initiative on the peoples part.

 

[Egret]

Wrong arguement buddy. We've already stated that FSes are bad for now, and probably will still be bad in the future. However, what we are talking about is using this "casual competative league" to make the transition between casual and competative much smoother and more common. Smash Balls may not even be included at the start of this (though they might be more willing to test them out than we are.)

If there really is a counter for it like some people are argueing, this new community would be the one most likely to test this possiblity. It won't have to directly affect the current competative scene, which I think is a great plus. Instead, FSes and items in general will simply be part of their own community, that exists as a fusion of what is currently two nearly opposite styles of play. Imagine what kind of bridge that would build between us. Imagine how much the competative scene would grow if there was just a more encouraging way of entering. And the new "casual competative league" itself would become a safe haven for people that want to try something new, but not stray too far from their roots.

They're already fine for casual, even "casual competetive". If you're just refering to casual use I don't see the point in the whole "down the road" thing. The problem comes from people abusing them, obviously if they won't in casual play they're already fine, if not there's not much to be done about them.

 

[Rodriguezjr]

Smash Balls would be unfair for those who only wished to play Samus/Zamus. Its comparable to forcing Sheiks to play as Zelda in Melee

You can switch to the two in different ways. The Dojo explained you can do it from start or doing it by inputing up down up quickly.

 

[Dark Sonic]

They're already fine for casual, even "casual competetive". If you're just refering to casual use I don't see the point in the whole "down the road" thing. The problem comes from people abusing them, obviously if they won't in casual play they're already fine, if not there's not much to be done about them.

Well, the down the road thing is just saying that they may find some way to actually stop FSes from being so broken. I'm not suggesting that we include smash balls in our community in anyway. What I'm suggesting is that this second community may actually be more tourney viable than we currently tend to believe. I believe whole heartedly that our current style is as competative and tournament viable as it gets. But at the same time I can't help discouraging this notion that items are somehow a mockable subject. In the same way that smash sort of blossomed into a competative fighter from what was a party game, I believe that this new style might actually become somewhat popular. I think that it may simply be a place for people to go if they're not quite ready to completely switch from one side to another. I think it would be a valuable "middle ground."

 

[TheRooster]

I really dont see how the people are getting 2 KOs from 1 FS.

I know you guys keep seeing those videos where someone like luigi gets blasted by the landmaster and then comes back in and gets lifted off the stage.

Youd have to be a real noob to do that because even after only 2 or so rounds you realize not to come down from that platform until the either the FS goes away or the platform disappears.

I've also avoided the landmaster plenty of times by staying on top and close to the edge.
If he shoots it does nothing, because you are nowhere near the canon. If he tries to fly away you just dash of the edge. he can barrel roll but that can be avoided by jumping.

PK Starstorm is just walking between the comets, like frogger. You can also get hit by one and not die. Really, you only die when you bounce off of one and hit a second one.

kirbys only works if your within his area (which is about the length of his fsmash). That might be a little trickier to avoid if you arent poking/shooting at him to keep him at bay.

Snakes is good if the guy can predict where you will be. Although I once hid off camera on Eldin bridge (that little area that lets you walk off on either side) and snake could do nothing. Also hiding behind his body on screen makes it harder for him to predict your movements.

Metaknights doesnt ko unless you have already taken some damage. Even then its not easy to catch someone.

Same with Cpt Falcon. Except hes a better chaser.

Samus and Mario both have that huge projectile thing going on. You can jump over them like any other projectile if you time it right.


Sonics is probably the only one I really consider cheap (it last for about 20 seconds). It is pretty hard to control though, so it evens out in 1v1. I would equate it to trying to write your name with a pencil thats 10 feet long. Easiest way to avoid it is to get on the opposite side of a solid wall, or any area where he could miss easily and be redirected by the slop of the stage(like hanging off the edge on final destination)

Pikachu's is exactly like Sonic's except he can go THROUGH walls. Easily avoided because most people cant really play as him anyway.

Those are most of the ones people are worried about.
All in all I see a lot of skill in the setup and avoidance of these moves.
I'm not trying to shove it down your throats though, I just wanna clear up misconceptions about these things being 100%-fool-proof-instant KO's

 

[Metalknux]

Well, I haven't read the thread yet, so I'm just replying to the opening post. Smash Balls are unfair because two characters can be on opposite sides of the stage, and then it could respawn right next to one of them. And you might as well have never included the whole 'knock it off them' thing, because if you run at someone who has a Smash Ball, unless they suck horribly, you will get Final Smashed.

Edit: @ above poster, that's probably the worst logic I've ever heard. 'pikas fs is balansed cause no 1 plays as him lol'.

Oh and about Samus, try and jump over a giant laser that engulfes the screen, and tell me how well that works out.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I really dont see how the people are getting 2 KOs from 1 FS.

I know you guys keep seeing those videos where someone like luigi gets blasted by the landmaster and then comes back in and gets lifted off the stage.

Youd have to be a real noob to do that because even after only 2 or so rounds you realize not to come down from that platform until the either the FS goes away or the platform disappears.

The problem is that if a platform comes up from under you then you get lifted off of your little trophy stand. The same thing happens if a plane comes up from under you in melee. They aren't comming down too early or anything, it's simply that they get lifted anyway.

I've also avoided the landmaster plenty of times by staying on top and close to the edge.
If he shoots it does nothing, because you are nowhere near the canon. If he tries to fly away you just dash of the edge. he can barrel roll but that can be avoided by jumping.

You can actually angle the landmaster at the ledge so that the barrel roll will hit you anyway, even if you just hang there.

PK Starstorm is just walking between the comets, like frogger. You can also get hit by one and not die. Really, you only die when you bounce off of one and hit a second one.

PK Starstorm is argueably the worst FS in the game (in 1 vs 1 anyway).

kirbys only works if your within his area (which is about the length of his fsmash). That might be a little trickier to avoid if you arent poking/shooting at him to keep him at bay.

Where did you get that arbitrary range from?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS5RU5vMYnA 2:33. I guess that fsmash range you put doesn't apply does it?

Snakes is good if the guy can predict where you will be. Although I once hid off camera on Eldin bridge (that little area that lets you walk off on either side) and snake could do nothing. Also hiding behind his body on screen makes it harder for him to predict your movements.

Snake's FS is not what we're talking about

Metaknights doesnt ko unless you have already taken some damage. Even then its not easy to catch someone.

Not taken damage against Metaknight? Who has the best damage racking so far? Also, Metaknight's FS is not what we're debating

Same with Cpt Falcon. Except hes a better chaser.

Captain Falcon is not what we're debating

Samus and Mario both have that huge projectile thing going on. You can jump over them like any other projectile if you time it right.

They simply last too long for most characters to jump over. Unless you're Snake, Metaknight, Pit, or Peach... you're screwed

Sonics is probably the only one I really consider cheap (it last for about 20 seconds). It is pretty hard to control though, so it evens out in 1v1.

We are talking about competative play. We are talking about highly skilled players. We are assuming that if it is allowed, then people will work to gain complete conrtol of that FS. At that point, it becomes game breaking because of duration, power, and speed.

I would equate it to trying to write your name with a pencil thats 10 feet long. Easiest way to avoid it is to get on the opposite side of a solid wall, or any area where he could miss easily and be redirected by the slop of the stage(like hanging off the edge on final destination)

Once again, we are assuming that the Sonic player is actually good. He'll slow down as he gets really close to you and zone in on where you are.

Pikachu's is exactly like Sonic's except he can go THROUGH walls. Easily avoided because most people cant really play as him anyway.

And if the Pikachu player is skilled then this suddenly becomes a big problem for you doesn't it.

Those are most of the ones people are worried about.
All in all I see a lot of skill in the setup and avoidance of these moves.
I'm not trying to shove it down your throats though, I just wanna clear up misconceptions about these things being 100%-fool-proof-instant KO's

You are talking about low level fixes. What we are talking about is the lack of high level fixes. What we are talking about is people that have complete understanding and control of their FS. At that point you have to assume that any mistake by the opponent will result in their death, because you are sure to punish it. If they miss an attack, if they get hit by any setup attack, if they get cornered at an edge, if they are stuck on the edge and you force them up...they die. Punishment for mistakes is one thing, but death at 10% because Marth hit you with one fair (which combos into the FS) out of the 20 he threw at you is just overkill.

 

[Jack Kieser]

It just so happens that I decided not to procrastinate for once, and I went ahead and asked for mod approval for a "Casual Competition League" thread even though it's still 2 weeks til release. I got the approval (I was kind of surprised, especially with the obvious potential for flame wars on the topic), so I went ahead and made the thread in the tournament discussion board. I direct anyone who wants to join the project/wants more info/wants to discuss to this thread. Please read the OP first, though.

 

[LinkGadra]

Quick question: Can someone name me six elements of a competitive game that, once banned, became unbanned at a later date?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Quick question: Can someone name me six elements of a competitive game that, once banned, became unbanned at a later date?

Wobbling (left up to tournament organizer's discretion)
TS Shikamaru in Narutimate Accel. (left up to tournament organizer's discretion)
...

I don't know any others.

 

[otter]

I think a big problem is that so many Melee players don't want to lose all the work that they put into the game, so they are just trying to keep the game as similar as the can. The use of smash balls is really going to help some weaker characters get a chance to be played.

The only reason you should be scared is if you only know how to play Marth.

 

[entrapment]

Well it really is open to how people want to take on this issue....but whatever style is picked isn't going to effect who is still going to play this game regardless

 

[Dark Sonic]

The only reason you should be scared is if you only know how to play Marth.

Uhh... Marth has the best Final Smash in the first place. Banning items>>>>Banning characters.

 

[RWB]

I think a big problem is that so many Melee players don't want to lose all the work that they put into the game, so they are just trying to keep the game as similar as the can. The use of smash balls is really going to help some weaker characters get a chance to be played.

The only reason you should be scared is if you only know how to play Marth.

Your logic does not compute. Marth has one of, if not the best FS. Meanwhile, the other really good FSes belong to characters that also seem to be pretty **** strong without.

 

[Dreiko]

Quick question: Can someone name me six elements of a competitive game that, once banned, became unbanned at a later date?

Healing and infinites in jump ultimate stars.

 

[JawaJedi]

I'm going to most likely play brawl with all items off except the Smash Ball, because I think it adds more elements to the game. This is Brawl, not Melee, be a little more open minded to using items, especially if you haven't played it yet.

 

[dude984]

If you're going to talk about EXCLUSIVELY competitive play, then i agree that Smash Balls should be in. It adds a nice touch for a finish and is a new element to the game. Some say that smash balls are cheap and are too difficult to avoid; you could make the counter argument that it's not fair to pit a good player against a mediocre (mind the spelling) player, claiming THAT's cheap.

It adds balance and a whole new dimension to the game...as I see it.

Yar...

 

[Damax]

The problem of this debate is this: a bunch of ****ing noob that didn't play yet. if you did, you'd clearly be against it.

smashball problems: FS not of equal value between character, will advantage usually the already good chars.
Smashball battle: easier for some characters, marth, Ike, Snake for exemple over metaknight (for exemple) The characters with stronger aerial can almost take the ball in 2 hit while metaknight has to hit it a million time with aerial and the ball seems to go MUCH farther away from metaknight upon hitting than most characters. Metaknight's FS is not the best, yet its so hard to catch the ball with him his best bet probably being up b + glide cancel (which somehow leave you vulnerable)

Rigged FS: I was able to pull 3 kos with sonic on two opponent, if you don't move the stick, sonic won't. You can stick into one place and move slightly toward the opponent sometimes even stopping on him.

bad FS: Pikachu he is uncontrollable, doesn't stop, does BAD % and bad knockback.

@dude984: tournaments ain't for kid. FS doesn't add balance to the game at all, it can only unbalance it. wait till you play the game and figure just how boring this is. if Smash was built in with a 1 final smash per round limit MAYBE that'd be discutable, but it is not.

agaist my friend once: I FSed the **** outta him, a smash ball appeared before he came back, I took it. there you go, 3 kills with no skills RAWR

 

[fr0st2k]

Well, I haven't read the thread yet, so I'm just replying to the opening post. Smash Balls are unfair because two characters can be on opposite sides of the stage, and then it could respawn right next to one of them. And you might as well have never included the whole 'knock it off them' thing, because if you run at someone who has a Smash Ball, unless they suck horribly, you will get Final Smashed.

Edit: @ above poster, that's probably the worst logic I've ever heard. 'pikas fs is balansed cause no 1 plays as him lol'.

Oh and about Samus, try and jump over a giant laser that engulfes the screen, and tell me how well that works out.

Dude...what? If it "spawns" next to a player, they hit it, and it flies to upward and in another direction. Are you telling me that the other player is just standing there and not doing anything to get closer to it? Even if hes off the screen, it would no more than 5 seconds to return (AND NOT BE EDGE CAMPED for that matter) and knock the other player away from the smash ball before he breaks it.

And about samus ... why not stay right next to him? stay in close quaters until she uses the FS. Then you just jump over and behind and avoid it. its NOT hard...