Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

You forgot about Mewtwo.

Mewtwo was planned for Brawl, but was probably cut due to time restraints (he's the most complete unused character in Brawl, so he was likely the last cut made). He also still appeared as a trophy in Brawl, so technically Mewtwo's been in every Smash since Melee in some form or another.

So ideally, Mewtwo wouldn't have been cut from Brawl, but the hand that got dealt forced his cutting.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Nothing has to get the "boot". Just limit the number of IC's or remove them from a mode if necessary. Outright removing the mode is silly because 1 character doesn't work in it. As long as 4 IC's work by default, they're not an issue for the main game in itself.

IC's didn't work in Smash 3DS as is with 4 total IC's(or technically 8). This was a good reason to remove them. Whether or not they worked with 8-player Smash in 4 is unknown, but there's suggestions it was unlikely. Even then, the only reason they're gone is they can't be played normally without a lot of issues in both main versions of the game. Removing them from one mode is nowhere near the same thing as removing them from the entire game.

It's perfectly fine if they're a little limited or not in the mode itself. Up to 4 IC's is fine. I'd still like more than 4 costumes, though. I mean, if it's still to the point that having IC's during 8 Player Smash with 8 actual characters is still too taxing(due to Nana's A.I. And yes this a hypothetical), then just disable 8 player Smash during Classic when IC's are involved. Easy. IC's should be higher priority overall anyway, but there's no reason both can't exist.

I just hope that the Nintendo Switch can do what the Wii U could not, but the lag that Breath of the Wild can potentially suffer from isn't exactly helping things.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I just hope that the Nintendo Switch can do what the Wii U could not, but the lag that Breath of the Wild can potentially suffer from isn't exactly helping things.

So do I. That said, I'm not too worried. I think they're coming back whether it's a port(with additional characters) or a new game, even if it means they can't be fully used in a single mode(a small price to pay, really).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So do I. That said, I'm not too worried. I think they're coming back whether it's a port(with additional characters) or a new game, even if it means they can't be fully used in a single mode(a small price to pay, really).

Still, I don't like the idea of certain characters getting the cold shoulder in certain game modes.

 

[Arcadenik]

Still, I don't like the idea of certain characters getting the cold shoulder in certain game modes.

I get that but there's a precedent. Mii Fighters got the cold shoulder in For Glory mode.

 

[Joel_Tarkus]

I really just want a smash game with Waluigi. Is that to much to ask for? I wouldn't mind Ice Climbers coming back. Also my dream character that would never happen...

The Mushroom Genie from Mario Party II

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I get that but there's a precedent. Mii Fighters got the cold shoulder in For Glory mode.

Miis are a different story, since they're pretty much their own fighter category; they're not exactly standard fighters, due to the amount of customizations that they can have, and are the only fighters who can use custom special moves in non-custom matches. In a similar manner, you can't normally have more than one Final Smash fighter present during a match, since only one Smash Ball can appear at a time.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Miis are a different story, since they're pretty much their own fighter category; they're not exactly standard fighters, due to the amount of customizations that they can have, and are the only fighters who can use custom special moves in non-custom matches. In a similar manner, you can't normally have more than one Final Smash fighter present during a match, since only one Smash Ball can appear at a time.

Ice Climbers are also not "standard" fighters by any means. They also have special rules to their design. Nana's A.I., the fact they can de-sync(which is part of the playstyle too). Melee even had a glitch with them due to their design. Brawl too, if I remember right. Never mind the combo rules being that you can't be over 400 damage(which they more or less are guilty of).

Mii Fighters were also discluded from Smash Tour.

The point is, if there's a reason they don't work in the mode, whether for gameplay reasons, aesthetic reasons, or otherwise, they can be removed or limited. This is a precedent already set since Smash 4. It's a normal thing. It's to be expected if there's a legitimate reason for it. There's zero good reason to remove a mode just because one character has issues with it. Please just accept that if push comes to shove, Sakurai will do the most logical thing, not have them in one mode or reduce their options, whichever is most feasible. Principles only get so far. Keep in mind IC's were cut not just because they didn't work, but because they couldn't keep spending time on trying work-arounds on 'em. DLC also proved that no matter what they tried, it didn't work on the 3DS.

 

[Chandeelure]

The Mushroom Genie from Mario Party II

Wow, and I felt hopeless for wanting Shy Guy or Zeke/Julie from Zombies Ate My Neighbors.

The Mushroom Genie from Mario Party 2 is just another level of random XD

 

[Deleted member]

The Mushroom Genie from Mario Party II

And I thought Zael was a no-hoper.

 

[FalKoopa]

I really just want a smash game with Waluigi. Is that to much to ask for? I wouldn't mind Ice Climbers coming back. Also my dream character that would never happen...

The Mushroom Genie from Mario Party II

As soon as we get Aladdin in Smash, I'm sure he'll be in.

 

[Arcadenik]

Wow, and I felt hopeless for wanting Shy Guy or Zeke/Julie from Zombies Ate My Neighbors.

The Mushroom Genie from Mario Party 2 is just another level of random XD

I liked that post for Zombies Ate My Neighbors. I loved that SNES game! I used to play it with my brother all the time.

If that game was owned by Nintendo or even Konami and not LucasArts (and I think Disney now owns LucasArts) I would have supported Zeke and Julie a long time ago.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I liked that post for Zombies Ate My Neighbors. I loved that SNES game! I used to play it with my brother all the time.

If that game was owned by Nintendo or even Konami and not LucasArts (and I think Disney now owns LucasArts) I would have supported Zeke and Julie a long time ago.

LucasArts is also responsible for Maniac Mansion. That has multiple characters with all kinds of fun items. That could give a pretty neat moveset... with a bunch of each palette swapped characters. >.>

 

[StoryGamer88]

I hope Board the Platforms can finally return. Being able to custom make them and target tests may be the dream for me.

And change one of the two jumps to another Special! More moves like PS All Stars Battle Royale would be cool.

 

[Kirbeh]

I hope Board the Platforms can finally return. Being able to custom make them and target tests may be the dream for me.

And change one of the two jumps to another Special! More moves like PS All Stars Battle Royale would be cool.

So what? Add a second set of specials mapped to X or Y? I'm not too sure on that idea. There are a lot of things I didn't like about PSASBR (still put a good amount of time into it tho), and this is one of things that always felt off to me. There was no proper distinction between normals and specials. It felt like it was trying to combine the Smash Bros. control setup with that of a traditional fighter, but failed on both fronts.

I suppose in Smash's case, the control setup is already there, and adding your idea wouldn't really mess with it as it'd be making use of a more or less unused button, but I imagine that greatly increase development time if they had to give every character an additional 4 Specials. The time spent on planning, developing and balancing all of those would likely mean a sacrifice to another part/or parts of the game, which already felt like the case in Smash For, so I'm not too keen on that.

I did have a bit of a similar idea myself though, but instead of making a second set of specials, I was thinking of an Ability button. Each character would be able to activate a unique ability somewhat similar to the V-Triggers in Street Fighter. Though like with your idea, I doubt it'd be something they'd consider.

And welcome to Smashboards.

 

[Joel_Tarkus]

Wow, and I felt hopeless for wanting Shy Guy or Zeke/Julie from Zombies Ate My Neighbors.

The Mushroom Genie from Mario Party 2 is just another level of random XD

A boy can dream. He only appears for like a second to fly you to the star and stuff. So I guess no one would be to sure what his move set would even be. And sure, people would say things like "I thought Shulk was obscure and bottom of the barrel but Mushroom Genie." But at least he is more reasonable than Goku. I'm looking directly at you North american smash ballot.

 

[Deleted member]

I really just want a smash game with Waluigi. Is that to much to ask for? I wouldn't mind Ice Climbers coming back. Also my dream character that would never happen...

The Mushroom Genie from Mario Party II

I'd rather he be in Mario Kart......as a Kart. :V

So many jokes I've had with friends about that when we would play MP2.

 

[Chandeelure]

A boy can dream. He only appears for like a second to fly you to the star and stuff. So I guess no one would be to sure what his move set would even be. And sure, people would say things like "I thought Shulk was obscure and bottom of the barrel but Mushroom Genie." But at least he is more reasonable than Goku. I'm looking directly at you North american smash ballot.

I actually think Goku is more reasonable than the genie, he is at least massively popular and has moveset potential.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ice Climbers are also not "standard" fighters by any means. They also have special rules to their design. Nana's A.I., the fact they can de-sync(which is part of the playstyle too). Melee even had a glitch with them due to their design. Brawl too, if I remember right. Never mind the combo rules being that you can't be over 400 damage(which they more or less are guilty of).

Mii Fighters were also discluded from Smash Tour.

All that I know is that in Brawl, the game considers the Ice Climbers as being standard fighters, so you "have" to use them in order to complete the all fighters challenges.

With that said, it should be noted that we have seen older game modes get the boot. One notable example is Tourney, where you can't play it offline at all in Smash Wii U. Likewise, Target Smash got thrown out and replaced with Target Blast. As such, it's hard to say if 8-player Smash will come back, but it can probably work a whole lot better on the Nintendo Switch than on the Wii U.

 

[Luminario]

I actually think Goku is more reasonable than the genie, he is at least massively popular and has moveset potential.

If Goku actually gets in there I better see Hatsune Miku too.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Joel_Tarkus do you mind if i ask why your dream character is the mushroom genie?

Im curious since it seems like a "random" choice.

 

[Arcadenik]

Joel_Tarkus do you mind if i ask why your dream character is the mushroom genie?

Im curious since it seems like a "random" choice.

LOL Is it the manly mustache? The strong arms?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

No they're not. If they were at threat then Ike probably wouldn't have returned. Moreover no unique moveset has been cut outside of:

- Side effect of removing a gimmick
- Technical Difficulties
- Issues with the rights

and returned even though their transformation gimmick got removed, so Squirtle and Ivysaur could have easily been higher priority regardless of their gimmick, so that isn't really a main reason why they didn't return. They probably didn't return regardless because Sakurai figured they weren't that important enough to be high priority, kinda like how Mewtwo wasn't high priority for Brawl.

Besides, unless the roster for Smash 5 ends up increasing substantially in size, there still would either be much less newcomers than before and few cuts, or a similar quantity of newcomers as Brawl and Smash 4 and a lot of cuts. If the latter happens, can you really say that there won't be a lot of unique characters cut.

I wouldn't be remotely surprised if say, Lucina ends up returning and Corrin gets cut. I mean, there is already a precedence for less unique characters being higher priority than more unique characters ( see vs)

Too bad Fire Emblem's representatives are mostly clones that got added once and then just returned.

There was only one clone character that was a easy bonus addition to the initial roster and one semi-clone who returned because of fan-demand. Everyone else is unique.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

and returned even though their transformation gimmick got removed, so Squirtle and Ivysaur could have easily been higher priority regardless of their gimmick, so that isn't really a main reason why they didn't return. They probably didn't return regardless because Sakurai figured they weren't that important enough to be high priority, kinda like how Mewtwo wasn't high priority for Brawl.

Besides, unless the roster for Smash 5 ends up increasing substantially in size, there still would either be much less newcomers than before and few cuts, or a similar quantity of newcomers as Brawl and Smash 4 and a lot of cuts. If the latter happens, can you really say that there won't be a lot of unique characters cut.

I wouldn't be remotely surprised if say, Lucina ends up returning and Corrin gets cut. I mean, there is already a precedence for less unique characters being higher priority than more unique characters ( see vs)



There was only one clone character that was a easy bonus addition to the initial roster and one semi-clone who returned because of fan-demand. Everyone else is unique.

Falco was in Melee as starter (I think)
Wolf was a last-minute addition for Brawl.

That's different from Corn and Lucina's situation.

Circumstances for the clones aside, the series now has the Zelda-syndrome in that it's seen as overrepresented while the amount of unique characters it has is not that outrageous
Cuts are never the solution though

 

[Schnee117]

Falco was in Melee as starter (I think)
Wolf was a last-minute addition for Brawl.

Falco was unlockable and only got in to Melee because they had time for 6 clones to make the roster look bigger.

The difference here is that Falco had veteran status in Brawl.

 

[LunchmanJ]

I think the only thing that really matters when deciding what character should be in a game is how wanted the character is. How important or iconic a character doesn't really matter at all, but the most requested characters will naturally be more important and well known than the lesser voted characters. This means that characters like Daisy and Geno are valid picks. Also, clones should definetly be avoided unless key differences make the clone very different from the original like Melee Fox and Falco.

The reasons for why a character is wanted or not wanted need to be as logical as possible. Two valid reasons for wanting a character off the top of my head are how entertaining a character is in the game he or she is from and how fun it would be to play as him (moveset potential).

I also think that fourth party characters like Shrek are valid choices for Smash 5. I think anybody can understand this if they play down their biases. Who wouldn't want to play as Goku or Jesus Christ? I am dead serious.

...

Maybe.

What are your thoughts on how Sakurai should choose his characters?

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Mushroom Genie is still better than the likes of Brash the Bear.

No joke.

 

[Kirbeh]

I think the only thing that really matters when deciding what character should be in a game is how wanted the character is. How important or iconic a character doesn't really matter at all, but the most requested characters will naturally be more important and well known than the lesser voted characters. This means that characters like Daisy and Geno are valid picks. Also, clones should definetly be avoided unless key differences make the clone very different from the original like Melee Fox and Falco.

The reasons for why a character is wanted or not wanted need to be as logical as possible. Two valid reasons for wanting a character off the top of my head are how entertaining a character is in the game he or she is from and how fun it would be to play as him (moveset potential).

I also think that fourth party characters like Shrek are valid choices for Smash 5. I think anybody can understand this if they play down their biases. Who wouldn't want to play as Goku or Jesus Christ? I am dead serious.

...

Maybe.

What are your thoughts on how Sakurai should choose his characters?

Honestly, I think they way they've been doing things is fine as is.

And characters like Daisy and Geno have always been valid picks, so long as the character in question is from a game, that's always been the case. (Sakurai's been considering Geno as far back as Brawl just so you know, but working out deals with third parties isn't easy, and development can't wait for him to sort all that out, plus sometimes the other companies just utright refuse like SEGA did at first.)

These characters simply aren't chosen as others win out in terms of priority. There are numerous variables of course and the reasons differ from case to case, but most of the characters in Smash are popular/requested characters on top of being iconic. Plus if he didn't go along with his ideas for stuff like retro/surprise picks we would have never gotten characters like Game & Watch, ROB and WFT.

There are plenty of characters we all want to see that have yet to get in, but Sakurai and his team have done a fine job, if not a fantastic job (imo) over the years.

And no, fourth parties are not valid choices. I know the last bit was more of a joke, but that's not what Smash is about. If you want a crazy crossover like that then there's already MUGEN, and if you want something else, you'll just have to hold out and hope a developer is willing to make something of the sort.

 

[Deleted member]

I also think that fourth party characters like Shrek are valid choices for Smash 5.

And no, fourth parties are not valid choices.

-triggered-

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "4TH PARTY".

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Meh, I'd rather talk about mobile characters than non-gaming characters again. Sounds like a bunch of MUGEN fanboys to me.

Mushroom Genie is still better than the likes of Brash the Bear.

No joke.

If this exists in an attempt to trigger me, then it failed.

Brash is no longer considered a shoo-in in my eyes. BKupa is better off going solo on this.

 

[Kirbeh]

-triggered-

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "4TH PARTY".

True, but people always call them that, so it's kind of become a bad habit of sorts.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Meh, I'd rather talk about mobile characters than non-gaming characters again. Sounds like a bunch of MUGEN fanboys to me.

> calls people that speculate about non-gaming characters for Smash "MUGEN fanboys"
> Played MUGEN alot in high school

Wew lad.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Casually still stealth supporting Popeye in Smash Brothers.

-whistles-

 

[FalKoopa]

-triggered-

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "4TH PARTY".

4th Party is just another colloquialism like 2nd Party.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

4th Party is a circle of hell where I hear Satan throws some killer costume parties.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, characters from franchises that aren't of video game origin are very unlikely to happen though not for the reasons everyone thinks. It doesn't actually have to do with the fact that they didn't originate from a gaming franchise, but rather the fact that those types of characters are much more difficult to actually include to the point it's practically impossible.

Take James Bond for example, as there was actual consideration back in Melee's development and things from the historically significant Goldeneye 007 game on the N64 DID get featured in Smash prior to Brawl (though only generic things like the Motion-Sensor Bomb, with any reference to being from Goldeneye 007 being purposely omitted).

He wasn't dismissed on the grounds that he didn't originate in a video game; he was dismissed because of the following:
-He used realistic firearms.
-He used an actor's likeness (which crosses into separate legal issues entirely).
-The Goldeneye 007 game was based on a movie, thus getting the rights to the IP and the character himself was near impossible.
-Goldeneye 007 was Rare's game, and getting Rare properties was another issue in itself.

4th Party is just another colloquialism like 2nd Party.

Unlike "2nd Party", it makes no goddamn sense.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I just hope that the Nintendo Switch can do what the Wii U could not, but the lag that Breath of the Wild can potentially suffer from isn't exactly helping things.

I feel a lot of this is one breath of the wild and not the switch.

Only time I see lag in smash 4 is multiple clouds or items on high in 8 player smash.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Casually still stealth supporting Popeye in Smash Brothers.

-whistles-

Then you and @Thatkidwiththeafro would be good friends.

 

[Schnee117]

- Wanting non-video game characters makes you a MUGEN fanboy (and this was worded aggressively)

That's not even a jump, that's Superman flying to the end of the universe in terms of how absurd that conclusion is.

If you expect Non-Video Game characters then yeah, you're just setting yourself up for a disappointment but there's nothing wrong with wanting to see your favourite character in a crossover game that includes Cloud, Mario, Sonic and Pikachu.

Shulk vs Darth Vader. Guts vs Ike. Bond vs Snake.
**** yes I want them, they'll probably never happen but there's nothing wrong with me wanting that is there?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Circumstances for the clones aside, the series now has the Zelda-syndrome in that it's seen as overrepresented while the amount of unique characters it has is not that outrageous

Fire Emblem has one of the highest amount of unique characters at this point compared to other veteran Nintendo franchises. I mean, ranking these veteran franchises in terms of the number of unique ("unique" in this case, meaning not a clone at all) characters, Fire Emblem is at a very good place.


: 6 unique characters
: 6/5 unique characters (depending on whether or not Luigi can be considered unique enough to not qualify as a semi-clone at this point) and 1 clone.
: 4 unique characters, 1 semi-clone and 1 clone.
: 3 unique characters, 2 semi-clones
: 3 unique characters
: 2 unique characters, 1 clone
: 2 Unique characters
: 2 unique characters
: 2 unique characters
: 1 unique character, 1 semi-clone
: 1 unique character
: 1 unique character
: 1 unique character
: 1 unique character
: 1 unique character
: 1 unique character

As you can see here, the only franchises that have a higher number of unique characters are Mario and Pokemon.