Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Arcadenik]

All this Minecraft talk reminds me of the Stage Builder in Smash.

I would like the Stage Builder to be a bit more like Super Mario Maker.

 

[PsychoJosh]

I think Microsoft has enough characters with Rareware alone that they should try to make their own all-star fighting game. The Rare characters alone would make it a pretty decent roster, but if you added Master Chief and Minecraft Steve to that then you'd easily have something that would turn heads.

I would just hope that they stray away from making it like Smash because that path has been beaten. IMO they should take the high road and make it more like Power Stone. I'd like to see a 3D fighting game with Banjo-Kazooie inspired controls.

 

[Kirbeh]

I think Microsoft has enough characters with Rareware alone that they should try to make their own all-star fighting game. The Rare characters alone would make it a pretty decent roster, but if you added Master Chief and Minecraft Steve to that then you'd easily have something that would turn heads.

I would just hope that they stray away from making it like Smash because that path has been beaten. IMO they should take the high road and make it more like Power Stone. I'd like to see a 3D fighting game with Banjo-Kazooie inspired controls.

What do you think a potential roster for that would be? Assuming they start small (which I imagine they would), I'd go with:

Spoiler

Banjo & Kazooie
-Banjo & Kazooie
-Gruntilda

Battletoads
-Rash
-Dark Queen

Killer Instinct
-Jago
-Fulgore

Perfect Dark
-Joanna Dark

Jet Force Gemini
-Juno

Conker's Bad Fur Day
-Conker

Kameo: Elements of Power
-Kameo

Halo
-Master Chief

Gears of War
-Marcus Fenix

Ori and the Blind Forest
-Ori

Sabre Wulf
-Sabreman

Minecraft
-Steve

Blinx
-Blinx

I went with 16 to keep the roster small, and also because I'm not very familiar with Microsoft properties...
I'll also go ahead and say I've never played any of their games and kind of just picked the ones I've heard of/seen before.

And as to not go completely off topic and turn this in a MS Smash Bros. discussion I'll go back to what Arcadenik brought up.

I'm also in the camp that would like an overhaul to stage builder and something similar to Mario Maker seems like a good way to go about it. The idea for freely drawing terrain in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U was nice and all, but didn't really work out very well imo. I'd be perfectly fine with going back to a set of pre-made terrain and objects that you can just arrange as you please so long as we get a lot of variety.

If we got at least a dozen or so stage themes and could mix and match the terrain and backgrounds, I'd be fine with that. I mean there's a lot more that I really want out of stage builder, but most of it wouldn't really be feasible unless they dedicated a good chunk of development on it. Given that wouldn't happen, and understandably so, I'd be more than happy if they just expanded on what they've tried in the psst by simply increasing our options for objects, terrain, backgrounds, maybe a few other elements/effects.

 

[PsychoJosh]

What do you think a potential roster for that would be? Assuming they start small (which I imagine they would), I'd go with:

Spoiler

Banjo & Kazooie
-Banjo & Kazooie
-Gruntilda

Battletoads
-Rash
-Dark Queen

Killer Instinct
-Jago
-Fulgore

Perfect Dark
-Joanna Dark

Jet Force Gemini
-Juno

Conker's Bad Fur Day
-Conker

Kameo: Elements of Power
-Kameo

Halo
-Master Chief

Gears of War
-Marcus Fenix

Ori and the Blind Forest
-Ori

Sabre Wulf
-Sabreman

Minecraft
-Steve

Blinx
-Blinx

I went with 16 to keep the roster small, and also because I'm not very familiar with Microsoft properties....

This list is more or less correct, I would add Mumbo Jumbo and have all three Battletoads instead of just Rash though. Throw in more KI characters like Orchid, Spinal and Tusk, but they'd be their original versions over the 2013 version.

Juno and Vela could be costume swaps for each other since I imagine their movesets would be the same. Kameo and Kalus would have slightly different movesets like Pit and Dark Pit, and also I'd add Thorn.

I'd also put in Leafos from Viva Pinata who uses pinata friends and other mechanics like the shovel and watering can in her attacks. She'd be analogous to villager, but with pinata assists. I suppose the Jetpac guy would be cool too, and Sabreman just for the historic aspect of it.

Finally Mr. Pants needs to be in there somehow.

I created my own list for this:

Spoiler

Banjo-Kazooie
Mumbo Jumbo
Gruntilda

Rash
Zitz
Pimple

Jago
Fulgore
Orchid
Sabrewulf
Tusk

Joanna Dark
Elvis

Kameo
Kalus
Thorn

Juno
Vela

Kuros (Wizards & Warriors)

Leafos
Prof. Pester

Conker

Sabreman

Jetman

Mr. Pants

Master Chief

Marcus Fenix

Ori

Voodoo Vince

Blinx

 

[Kirbeh]

This list is more or less correct, I would add Mumbo Jumbo and have all three Battletoads instead of just Rash though. Throw in more KI characters like Orchid, Spinal and Tusk, but they'd be their original versions over the 2013 version.

Juno and Vela could be costume swaps for each other since I imagine their movesets would be the same. Kameo and Kalus would have slightly different movesets like Pit and Dark Pit, and also I'd add Thorn.

I'd also put in Leafos from Viva Pinata who uses pinata friends and other mechanics like the shovel and watering can in her attacks. She'd be analogous to villager, but with pinata assists. I suppose the Jetpac guy would be cool too, and Sabreman just for the historic aspect of it.

Finally Mr. Pants needs to be in there somehow.

I created my own list for this:

Spoiler

Banjo-Kazooie
Mumbo Jumbo
Gruntilda

Rash
Zitz
Pimple

Jago
Fulgore
Orchid
Sabrewulf
Tusk

Joanna Dark
Elvis

Kameo
Kalus
Thorn

Juno
Vela

Kuros (Wizards & Warriors)

Leafos
Prof. Pester

Conker

Sabreman

Jetman

Mr. Pants

Master Chief

Marcus Fenix

Ori

Voodoo Vince

Blinx

Only other MS character I know of who could possibly be added would be the XBOX Avatars as their own version of Mii Fighters. And I notice you left out Steve.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Oh, I honestly forgot Steve.

Despite him being the generic player character, I imagine he'd have a lot of moveset potential. And his stage would be a fully destructible biome in Minecraft.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

If I may ask,...


I'm not too fond of Minecraft myself, but why do so many people hate it and Steve?

I don't hate the series nor the character. I just find Steve really uninteresting character, and I don't really like the idea of Sony and Microsoft characters in Smash.

 

[PsychoJosh]

I personally love the idea of Banjo or Master Chief getting in the game. I'd like to see them bridge a competitive gap.

I mean we already have official Super Mario stuff in Minecraft.

 

[Arcadenik]

Man... Microsoft characters suck. Rare characters are where it's at. I wish Nintendo still owned Banjo-Kazooie, Conker, Killer Instinct, Battletoads, Jet Force Gemini, Perfect Dark, and Snake Rattle n Roll. They would have been in Smash a long time ago... I guess they already are in Smash in an alternate timeline.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Man... Microsoft characters suck. Rare characters are where it's at. I wish Nintendo still owned Banjo-Kazooie, Conker, Killer Instinct, Battletoads, Jet Force Gemini, Perfect Dark, and Snake Rattle n Roll. They would have been in Smash a long time ago... I guess they already are in Smash in an alternate timeline.

You mean like they were in Melee? Oh wait, that never happened. All Melee got was a proximity mine and a cloaking device from Perfect Dark.

Nintendo was never going to put any Rare characters in Smash. It's only until now that they're adding third party characters do they realize there's a demand for it.

 

[N3ON]

You mean like they were in Melee? Oh wait, that never happened. All Melee got was a proximity mine and a cloaking device from Perfect Dark.

Nintendo was never going to put any Rare characters in Smash. It's only until now that they're adding third party characters do they realize there's a demand for it.

They weren't going to be included as playable in Melee but they sure as hell would've in the future had Nintendo held onto Rare. Nintendo co-owned those IPs.

I imagine the first one would've been Banjo in Brawl.

 

[PsychoJosh]

They weren't going to be included as playable in Melee but they sure as hell would've in the future had Nintendo held onto Rare. Nintendo co-owned those IPs.

I imagine the first one would've been Banjo in Brawl.

I sincerely doubt it. And it's not like Microsoft just wrenched Rare from Nintendo's hands. Nintendo themselves were looking to sell them as well.

Anyways, if what Phil Spencer says is accurate, Banjo may still have a chance to be in Smash yet. Although I'd really prefer it if Microsoft made their own all-star figher instead.

 

[N3ON]

I sincerely doubt it.

Well I'm convinced.

Why would they not? Nintendo treated Rare like a partner/subsidiary, and co-owned many of their IPs. It's a similar situation to Game Freak and Pokemon, and we got them.

We even got Rare content in Melee (aka pre-third-party). Why draw the line there?

And it's not like Microsoft just wrenched Rare from Nintendo's hands. Nintendo themselves were looking to sell them as well.

No, the Stamper brothers were looking to sell their majority stakes. Nintendo declined to buy them out so they eventually went with Microsoft. Nintendo as the minority shareholder then decided to sell their entire stake as their options would be severely curbed by having a direct competitor able to control the company.

It's not entirely Nintendo's fault but there are many factors at play.

 

[Arcadenik]

Psycho Josh, obviously it never happened. That's why I said "alternate timeline" where it did happen.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Well I'm convinced.

Why would they not? Nintendo treated Rare like a partner/subsidiary, and co-owned many of their IPs. It's a similar situation to Game Freak and Pokemon, and we got them.

We even got Rare content in Melee (aka pre-third-party). Why draw the line there?

Ask Nintendo that, they're the ones who drew the line there. Even back when Melee came out I wondered why there were no Rare characters in it.

I would honestly prefer it if Microsoft made their own game because I'd like to see what they'd come up with. Will they learn the hard lessons that Sony learned from PSAS? Or will they follow in their footsteps and make a lackluster Smash clone with none of the things that make Smash work? I see a Microsoft all-star fighter as the only viable way Banjo will ever be in an all-star fighter, much more likely over Banjo getting in Smash, but who knows, maybe we'll be surprised at E3.

It would be cool if Microsoft made this game and as a trade-off for getting Banjo in Smash, Donkey Kong/Diddy Kong could appear in their game. It'd be like a Rare family reunion.

 

[N3ON]

Ask Nintendo that, they're the ones who drew the line there. Even back when Melee came out I wondered why there were no Rare characters in it.

I think you know that's not what I was saying. The question never was and still isn't why Melee didn't receive more Rare content.

The reason there weren't any (major) Rare characters in Melee is because the companies were in the process of litigation, which put them in flux. Ever wonder why Diddy is absent from Melee? Not as playable, but in general? Because Rare co-owned him; he was basically Rare's mascot. Apparently there was more Rare content originally in the game (not playable), but it got yanked. And aside from legal matters, the series included on the roster were just larger (or weird Sakurai exceptions) than ones like Banjo-Kazooie, which is why they weren't yet playable.

My question to you is, hypothesizing if Rare wasn't sold, why would we not see greater representation from them in the future titles? Especially assuming their development went unabated and projects like Banjo-Threeie actually came to fruition.

 

[Arcadenik]

There were no Rare characters in Melee.

But Psycho Josh wants Donkey Kong in a Microsoft Smash clone game since it's like Rare family reunion.

But Donkey Kong was in Melee and there's no Rare characters in Melee.

Diddy Kong is in Microsoft Smash clone game but not Dixie Kong and King K. Rool even though they were in Melee and Diddy Kong was not.

 

[N3ON]

There were no Rare characters in Melee.

But Psycho Josh wants Donkey Kong in a Microsoft Smash clone game since it's like Rare family reunion.

But Donkey Kong was in Melee and there's no Rare characters in Melee.

Diddy Kong is in Microsoft Smash clone game but not Dixie Kong and King K. Rool even though they were in Melee and Diddy Kong was not.

Love it.

Also blue fox lady.


I'm pretty sure Rare had some stake in the characters they created for existing IPs like what with Square and the SMRPG crew. But when they broke up with Nintendo they only retained custody of their IPs. Though I think they still own some of the rights to some of the DKC music if I'm remembering correctly? Not sure on that.

 

[Wolfie557]

If I may ask,...


I'm not too fond of Minecraft myself, but why do so many people hate it and Steve?

Looks too ugly to me and I would never play it for a decent amount of time cos its the type of like creative game. I'd rather try terraria.

But I'd rather play creative management type games like prison architect, rimworld, simcity, dungeons 2.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Microsoft has enough characters with Rareware alone that they should try to make their own all-star fighting game. The Rare characters alone would make it a pretty decent roster, but if you added Master Chief and Minecraft Steve to that then you'd easily have something that would turn heads.

I would just hope that they stray away from making it like Smash because that path has been beaten. IMO they should take the high road and make it more like Power Stone. I'd like to see a 3D fighting game with Banjo-Kazooie inspired controls.

Besides, they got Killer Instinct, and already it has three Microsoft/Rare characters in it. It won't work for every character but the IPs Microsoft have skewer towards older demographics.

 

[PsychoJosh]

There were no Rare characters in Melee.

But Psycho Josh wants Donkey Kong in a Microsoft Smash clone game since it's like Rare family reunion.

But Donkey Kong was in Melee and there's no Rare characters in Melee.

Diddy Kong is in Microsoft Smash clone game but not Dixie Kong and King K. Rool even though they were in Melee and Diddy Kong was not.

What are you babbling about here? Donkey Kong is not a Rare character.

 

[Curious Villager]

Whoops nevermind, wrong thread. Mods, please delete this post.

 

[PsychoJosh]

I think you know that's not what I was saying. The question never was and still isn't why Melee didn't receive more Rare content.

No, you were not clear on what you were referring to.

My question to you is, hypothesizing if Rare wasn't sold, why would we not see greater representation from them in the future titles?

Because I honestly don't think Nintendo cares. It's a different story with Pokemon because that's their most massively successful franchise. None of Rare franchises old even begin to eclipse the success of pokemon which is why they made special exceptions for pokemon characters to be in Smash despite them not being developed internally. Also I think Nintendo is at least slightly xenophobic which gives them an aversion to putting western developed characters in Smash. So far it seems they haven't even considered any western-made characters for inclusion into the game despite likely being very high on ballot choices.

 

[Curious Villager]

No, you were not clear on what you were referring to.



Because I honestly don't think Nintendo cares. It's a different story with Pokemon because that's their most massively successful franchise. None of Rare franchises old even begin to eclipse the success of pokemon which is why they made special exceptions for pokemon characters to be in Smash despite them not being developed internally. Also I think Nintendo is at least slightly xenophobic which gives them an aversion to putting western developed characters in Smash. So far it seems they haven't even considered any western-made characters for inclusion into the game despite likely being very high on ballot choices.

We got Diddy Kong, and K.Rool as a costume....

 

[PsychoJosh]

We got Diddy Kong, and K.Rool as a costume....

And Rayman as a trophy. But thats literally all. That's like 0.000001% of the total content in the game. The fact that there's such a substantial lack of western made content show that they're hesitant.

 

[Curious Villager]

And Rayman as a trophy. But thats literally all. That's like 0.000001% of the total content in the game. The fact that there's such a substantial lack of western made content show that they're hesitant.

I mean, if we include trophies, then there is quite a lot more. Such as the DKC cast, the strikers outfits and then there where probably quite a few Metroid Prime trophies over time too etc.

 

[Deleted member]

Other than DKC and anything Retro Studios or Next Level Games touches, what major western-made content does Nintendo really have to feature in Smash?


Unless we're talking about anything non-Nintendo, which is a separate issue entirely.

 

[Deleted member]

And Rayman as a trophy. But thats literally all. That's like 0.000001% of the total content in the game. The fact that there's such a substantial lack of western made content show that they're hesitant.

You forgot about the Commander Video trophy, which also happens to be the only indie representation in Smash.

 

[Kirbeh]

I'd argue that PsychoJosh has a point here; the trophies while an iconic part of Smash at this point, are optional side content that doesn't do much for the game at large. They're another way of including characters, items, etc. into the game to display Nintendo history. It's a great way of including a lot that would otherwise receive no recognition. Trophies are easy additions and allow them for them to throw fans a bone whether it be western fans, fans of a particular niche/forgotten game, etc.

When it comes to development at large, Sakurai has gone on record saying that the home audience is their priority. Japan will always take precedence. There just happens to be overlap between what western fans and Japanese fans want a lot of the time because we're asking for mostly Nintendo content which is in house in the first place.

Stuff like Metroid Prime trophies and the K. Rool Mii Costume are consolation prizes to at least show some acknowledgement of the demand for these, but unless the Japanese audience is backing it, it's very rare that they put focus on something that is mostly wanted by western fans.

Mac for example was a very special case of Sakurai including something that western fans wanted, while Japanese players were generally unaware of who he was, indifferent or outright opposed to him.

And like Golden already pointed out, there isn't really a whole lot of western content Nintendo currently has under their belt. DKC and the Prime series are the big one's they've got.

That aside I don't think they purposely ignore western fans, I think it's pretty clear wants to please the entire fan base as best he can, but they'd get a lot of complaints if they began putting more focus on western characters/content. The home region is the priority because that's who they're hearing from most often.

However, I do disagree with Josh in saying that had Rare remained with Nintendo that there wouldn't have been any Rare content. I'd argue that they do care about including western content for said western fans, and Rare would be an obvious source to pull from. I'd say it's more a matter of proportions.

The focus will always be on what the home region wants, but they'll still make sure to include content that western fans want, but in much smaller proportions.

 

[Deleted member]

There's a big difference between Rare properties and Pokémon, as I saw the comparison being made.

Pokémon is 2/3 owned by Nintendo. Creatures Inc. is a Nintendo subsidiary.

At the time, outside of DK himself, Rare held the rights to everything they created from what I understand.
This was why DK was the only thing from the DKC games that showed up in the Mario spin-off outings prior to Rare being sold to Microsoft. And even then, there was confusion initially as placeholder portrait art for DK in Mario Party shows a question mark in a silhouette, showing that using the pre-Rare DK vs. the Rare DK was up for debate.

 

[Deleted member]

There's a big difference between Rare properties and Pokémon, as I saw the comparison being made.

Pokémon is 2/3 owned by Nintendo. Creatures Inc. is a Nintendo subsidiary.

At the time, outside of DK himself, Rare held the rights to everything they created from what I understand.
This was why DK was the only thing from the DKC games that showed up in the Mario spin-off outings prior to Rare being sold to Microsoft. And even then, there was confusion initially as placeholder portrait art for DK in Mario Party shows a question mark in a silhouette, showing that using the pre-Rare DK vs. the Rare DK was up for debate.

Did they really? I know that in Melee (before the Microsoft buyout), there were trophies of Rare-created DK characters such as K. Rool and Dixie, but Diddy was oddly nowhere to be seen until Brawl (after the buyout and after he started appearing in Mario spin-offs).

 

[Deleted member]

Did they really? I know that in Melee (before the Microsoft buyout), there were trophies of Rare-created DK characters such as K. Rool and Dixie, but Diddy was oddly nowhere to be seen until Brawl (after the buyout and after he started appearing in Mario spin-offs).

We know at least that for 64 and Melee, getting Rare characters was considered "impossible" by Sakurai.

Other than DK stuff (sans any appearance of Diddy) and the Motion-Sensor Bomb and Cloaking Device (which any reference to where they were from was deliberately omitted), anything else was likely non-negotiable.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

And Rayman as a trophy. But thats literally all. That's like 0.000001% of the total content in the game. The fact that there's such a substantial lack of western made content show that they're hesitant.

Either ignorance, or this.

"Baka Gajin! Nippon Ichi!"

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

We know at least that for 64 and Melee, getting Rare characters was considered "impossible" by Sakurai.

Other than DK stuff (sans any appearance of Diddy) and the Motion-Sensor Bomb and Cloaking Device (which any reference to where they were from was deliberately omitted), anything else was likely non-negotiable.

I once read that it was Nintendo's choice to omit Rare representation in any way for the first two games. Apparently Nintendo had absolutely no rights to the character for a very long time. Meaning if they had taken the chance to put Diddy in Melee, Rare could have turned around and put Diddy on a competing console which wouldn't have looked good on Nintendo's part. Same goes with any other Rare owned character. The only problem with that is that Dixie DID in fact have a trophy in Melee. So did Nintendo actually own the rights to Dixie and not Diddy? That'd be strange but not impossible.

On the lack of Western representation. I agree with Golden's previous post. Aside from Retro and DKC what does Nintendo have that is from the west? Not very much if anything. Eternal Darkness and Geist are the only two that pop in my head and those two are rather obscure. And what they do have is represented well in stages and trophies, besides Geist and Eternal Darkness, it's just not represented well in characters. So, really it isn't a matter of a lack of Nintendo support for the West its Nintendo's lack of ownership of anything West-side. Granted they could have added Rayman but at the time, for whatever reason, Sakurai decided against it. He did however respect the series enough to give them 3 Trophies in the Wii U version so it could very well happen in the future. Commander Video as a trophy was a very strange choice but it does prove that they do care about both indies and the west.

In short, just because the West isn't represented well in characters doesn't mean it doesn't have a fair amount of representation in the rest of the game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

What do you think a potential roster for that would be? Assuming they start small (which I imagine they would), I'd go with:

Spoiler

Banjo & Kazooie
-Banjo & Kazooie
-Gruntilda

Battletoads
-Rash
-Dark Queen

Killer Instinct
-Jago
-Fulgore

Perfect Dark
-Joanna Dark

Jet Force Gemini
-Juno

Conker's Bad Fur Day
-Conker

Kameo: Elements of Power
-Kameo

Halo
-Master Chief

Gears of War
-Marcus Fenix

Ori and the Blind Forest
-Ori

Sabre Wulf
-Sabreman

Minecraft
-Steve

Blinx
-Blinx

I went with 16 to keep the roster small, and also because I'm not very familiar with Microsoft properties...
I'll also go ahead and say I've never played any of their games and kind of just picked the ones I've heard of/seen before.

And as to not go completely off topic and turn this in a MS Smash Bros. discussion I'll go back to what Arcadenik brought up.

I'm also in the camp that would like an overhaul to stage builder and something similar to Mario Maker seems like a good way to go about it. The idea for freely drawing terrain in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U was nice and all, but didn't really work out very well imo. I'd be perfectly fine with going back to a set of pre-made terrain and objects that you can just arrange as you please so long as we get a lot of variety.

If we got at least a dozen or so stage themes and could mix and match the terrain and backgrounds, I'd be fine with that. I mean there's a lot more that I really want out of stage builder, but most of it wouldn't really be feasible unless they dedicated a good chunk of development on it. Given that wouldn't happen, and understandably so, I'd be more than happy if they just expanded on what they've tried in the psst by simply increasing our options for objects, terrain, backgrounds, maybe a few other elements/effects.

Not enough Mumbo Jumbo.

Also, am still pretty damn confident that Diddy was planned for Melee, but scrapped due to Rare buyout issues. It wouldn't make sense in any other way, all things considered. The absense of a Diddy trophy has to be the most puzzling thing about Melee.

 

[Deleted member]

Diddy may have been considered too major of a "Rare star" at the time to even include as a trophy, not unlike Banjo, Conker, Joanna Dark, etc. He's the only DKC character to have branched out with a game of his own (Diddy Kong Racing).

I highly doubt he was ever planned for Melee, but only considered at best but shot down for the same reasoning as other Rare characters.

 

[Curious Villager]

Come to think of it, did Sakurai ever made any comments in regards to Diddy's inclusion, outside of the Brawl Dojo?

 

[Deleted member]

Speaking of which, I wonder if the fact Perfect Dark got mentioned during Melee's credits might prevent it to get re-released for an eventual GCN VC on Switch?

 

[Deleted member]

Speaking of which, I wonder if the fact Perfect Dark got mentioned during Melee's credits might prevent it to get re-released for an eventual GCN VC on Switch?

I know DKC2 had a Killer Instinct cameo and name drop left intact in its VC release, though along with DKC 1 & 3, it was taken off the Wii Shop Channel at one point and later put back up. DK64 also included Rare's own Jetpac game as an unlockable, but that took a while to get a VC release.

If the Rare-developed DK games are anything to go by, I'm sure Melee on VC is legally possible, but not as easy as most other Nintendo-owned games due to the Perfect Dark mention.

 

[N3ON]

What I believe to be the case, based on copyright info within the games, inclusion in Melee and on the Melee poll in a categorically different section than the third parties, the unified merchandise at the time, the fact that apparently Nintendo still holds partial rights towards GoldenEye (look into its VC history), and that Nintendo has listed those games as Nintendo games on their site (at the time, obv not anymore), is that the ownership of Rare IPs made, at least during the fifth gen, and characters created by Rare in established IPs were co-owned by both Rare and Nintendo. There's a lot of inconsistent information, which makes an objective picture hard to paint, and I'm sure we'll never know the actual split between ownerships, but that's the impression I'm under. And that's why I compared it to Pokemon. Because I believe both owned a fraction of the property, nothing closer.

So, as far as Diddy goes, I recall hearing Rare fought to keep him, as they viewed him as their mascot. I don't have on-hand proof of this anecdote though, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt. But I do remember reading that somewhere, so it could be the explanation as to his absence; while characters Rare might've been quicker to relinquish, such as Dixie and K. Rool, had appearance in Melee. In either case, I believe while joint ownership was had of all characters Rare created, they got to keep all under their own IPs, while Nintendo got to keep all under their existing IPs, like the DK Crew and Krystal. Though as far as Diddy in Melee, I'd guess he was only ever planned to be a trophy.

Though if anybody has sources to the contrary I'd be fascinated to read them. The Rare split was hugely upsetting for me as they were my favourite dev back in the day. So I've tried to absorb what information I can about the situation.

And lastly I think it goes without saying that if Rare and Nintendo had continued as they were with their mutually beneficial and (relatively) supportive network they had created for each other, Rare content would've undoubtably been featured more heavily in future Smash games. It would not be their first collaboration. Or even first collaboration within Smash.