Smash will SUCK without L-Canceling

[Magus420]

What you don't realise is when they removed L canceling, they also shortened the reaction times to moves.

You will notice this especially when you watch Link do his down smash in the air

I don't think it'll be as big a deal as many people think it will be.

2. Aerials lag less in Brawl from what we've seen.
3. Good spacing is still a viable way to avoid sheidgrabs.

Besides, I have heard that the game is faster in the sense that L-canceling is not as "necessary" as it was in Melee.

Landing lag seems to have been reduced greatly across the board in Brawl

-Characters have less lag time..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

Some weren't nearly as fortunate it seems XD

 

[WastingPenguins]

You guys who think that L-cancelling isn't important, let me lay it straight: attack lag is one of the single most important aspect of gameplay in this game. You can talk all you want about footstool jumping and the like, but at the very CORE of Smash, the ability to attack quickly, combo, and avoid punishment is much more important than anything. MUCH more important than wavedashing or anything else.

Simply put: Characters like Ganon, Ike and Bowser have HUGE amounts of landing lag in Brawl. Other characters don't. Taking out l-cancelling doesn't help balance ANYTHING if you leave the same old lag in after every attack! The heavies have become even more crippled, and they weren't exactly top tier before. Their ability to combo is simply gone and they will be VERY easily punished. Keep in mind that we're talking about reasonably high level play here. This likely won't effect many of you in any way.

Think about it like this: Imagine that Nintendo announced that they were removing all powerslides from the next Mario Kart game. Then, when interviewed, they said they thought the powerslide was too difficult for casual players and that now you should just simply slow down a lot while going around corners. Sure, my sister wouldn't give a ****-- she doesn't powerslide anyway! But I sure as hell would be pissed!

 

[WR3K]

Brawl =/= Melee

 

[Saltwater Gem]

Of the things to complain about Brawl, "WAAAH they fixed the unintentional physics glitches that I liked mutilating" is the probably the lamest one.

 

[PyrasTerran]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

Some weren't nearly as fortunate it seems XD

You are trying to prove that lag has been decreased with a character that HAS had his lag decreased..

And also, you are trying to prove a point of slow lag times with a slow, heavy character... lag for such a character is balance, isn't it?

You guys who think that L-cancelling isn't important, let me lay it straight:

Who is saying that L-cancelling is not important?

Everyone knows what L-cancelling does and why it is beneficial to gaming.

Simply put: Characters like Ganon, Ike and Bowser have HUGE amounts of landing lag in Brawl. Other characters don't. Taking out l-cancelling doesn't help balance ANYTHING if you leave the same old lag in after every attack! The heavies have become even more crippled, and they weren't exactly top tier before. Their ability to combo is simply gone and they will be VERY easily punished. Keep in mind that we're talking about reasonably high level play here. This likely won't effect many of you in any way.

But lag has been placed in certain moves and in landing as a way to balance the game.. If there were no lag times for heavy characters, then they'd severely overpower the rest of the roster. Heavy characters have had lag for as long as I can remember in fighting games, and those that didn't were intentially overpowering characters.

L-cancelling doesn't destroy lag, either, it just reduces it. And as said, most characters have had their lag reduced ANYWAY.

Heavy characters were never meant to be played by novices the way quick characters are, just like in Mario Kart. Only an advanced player can learn to time their attacks and make every hit count with heavy characters, and Brawl has added new stats and boosts to heavy characters to make them contenders, which wasn't the case in Melee.

Does it not interest anyone that we can finally see different characters like Bowser and DeDeDe be contenders in Brawl tournaments, rather than Fox, Falco, Sheik and Marth?

Think about it like this: Imagine that Nintendo announced that they were removing all powerslides from the next Mario Kart game. Then, when interviewed, they said they thought the powerslide was too difficult for casual players and that now you should just simply slow down a lot while going around corners.

No, we can't think about it like this because the power slide was a technique that the developers put into the game ON PURPOSE.

Wave-dashing and L-cancelling are not intentional techniques like Mario Kart's power sliding. They're leftover programming that is exploited. They're not cheating, but they are what they are, that cannot be denied.

 

[Dokuro]

itt: people who want brawl to be melee 2.0

 

[FierceDeityWolf]

inb4landmaster (Alread did it?? Yeah too much time on IGN..)

You know, it's people like you that make me mad. You wouldn't like me when Im angry.

No but seriously, dont whine. The people on IGN all cry and complain about the roster (were doing that) and you people are complaining because of a ****ing smash technique thats not even supposed to be in the game?

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

I fail to understand the problem. Sure you can't L-Cancel, neither can anyone else. Is it that important that you win? I would rather win a honest fight than to win with underhand meathods, I disliked the fact that in Melee one had to learn how to wavedash to be even approached as 'Decent'. I also was repulsed how people looked down upon other players depending on their choice of character. Winning with a 'High-Tier Character' is a small feat, crushing egos with Pichu is a much more satisfiying victory.

This is universally appropite, to win online you must make 3 others fail. I'd like to have the most challenging battle possible.

Excuse any spelling errors please, peace out and Happy Birthday.

 

[Bozen]

I fail to understand the problem. Sure you can't L-Cancel, neither can anyone else.

Exactly. There is no problem. As I said way back in the begining of this thread people are just going to have to learn to adapt to the new physics of the game.

 

[joeysmash]

shut up the game will be great

 

[WastingPenguins]

But lag has been placed in certain moves and in landing as a way to balance the game.. If there were no lag times for heavy characters, then they'd severely overpower the rest of the roster. Heavy characters have had lag for as long as I can remember in fighting games, and those that didn't were intentially overpowering characters.

L-cancelling doesn't destroy lag, either, it just reduces it. And as said, most characters have had their lag reduced ANYWAY.

Heavy characters were never meant to be played by novices the way quick characters are, just like in Mario Kart. Only an advanced player can learn to time their attacks and make every hit count with heavy characters, and Brawl has added new stats and boosts to heavy characters to make them contenders, which wasn't the case in Melee.

Does it not interest anyone that we can finally see different characters like Bowser and DeDeDe be contenders in Brawl tournaments, rather than Fox, Falco, Sheik and Marth?

Yes-- the lag WAS put in to balance characters. It's too bad that it didn't work out that way. Heavies may be more powerful but without lag cancelling they are simply too slow to compete with the faster characters. It doesn't matter that their attacks are stronger-- they get so overwhelmed by faster attacks from their opponent that they can't even DO their attacks. And please trust that I know what I'm talking about. I've played Melee for years with some of the best tourney players in the country and play a nearly-tournament worthy Ganondorf myself. If Melee Ganon couldn't lag-cancel, calling him useless wouldn't even begin to describe it. The funny thing is, even WITH lag cancelling, he is still only an average character at best.

No, we can't think about it like this because the power slide was a technique that the developers put into the game ON PURPOSE.

Wave-dashing and L-cancelling are not intentional techniques like Mario Kart's power sliding. They're leftover programming that is exploited. They're not cheating, but they are what they are, that cannot be denied.

This isn't a topic about wavedashing so please don't bring that up. This thread is about L-cancelling. With that in mind: You DO realize that lag-cancelling exists in both Melee AND Smash64, and is done exactly the same way in both? You really think that this technique slipped into both games on accident?

 

[Xarias]

 

[PyrasTerran]

shut up the game will be great

sweet and simple, lol

 

[Magus420]

You are trying to prove that lag has been decreased with a character that HAS had his lag decreased..

And also, you are trying to prove a point of slow lag times with a slow, heavy character... lag for such a character is balance, isn't it?

No. THAT much lag makes them almost unusable against anyone with a decent dashdance. I don't even know what you're trying to say in the 1st sentence, but the lag in those attacks are not reduced and also appear to autocancel later (that's a bad thing) with the exception of the b-air which is a little faster. That b-air is still rapable by dashdancing so it matters little anyway.

But lag has been placed in certain moves and in landing as a way to balance the game.. If there were no lag times for heavy characters, then they'd severely overpower the rest of the roster. Heavy characters have had lag for as long as I can remember in fighting games, and those that didn't were intentially overpowering characters.

Slow characters got ***** bad enough by fast characters with good dashdances before even with half the lag, and now they can't do that and only have a little to no reduction in lag while characters like Sonic have even faster dashes and longer DDs. How the hell is that balance?

Wave-dashing and L-cancelling are not intentional techniques like Mario Kart's power sliding. They're leftover programming that is exploited. They're not cheating, but they are what they are, that cannot be denied.

lol

 

[Beno]

L-cancelling was implimented in melee. (Just to say).

Also we have the new L-cancel (don't we?)

 

[Bozen]

I think this sums up many of the posts on this thread very well.

 

[Fletch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

Some weren't nearly as fortunate it seems XD

How do they expect Ganondorf to be playable like that...

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

I still fail to see what the problem is, so no one can L-cancel that means that slow characters are slower. This is the cause of concern correct? However the fast charcaters are also affected, so they would have a quicker recovary.

But if L-Canceling was introduced in Brawl the gain would be proportionate for each character (Lets say cut the Lag time in half). Effectly there is no difference. Unless you planed to abuse this to players who were not aware of what L-Canceling was....

Explain.

Okay, I'm being lazy, I just copyed what I said in the other thread...basicly the same thing folks. ​

 

[Puffin]

Quoted for the gospel truth.

Are competitive players so afraid of fighting without their advanced techniques that they actually think new players will be able to beat them on even footing now just because they don't have them??

Because that is the attitude that most who are upset seem to give off. Like their superiority is somehow compromised by this.

Luckily many competitive players have the right idea: Great players will still kick the ***** of new players regardless.

1. No. Quit making stuff up to make us look bad. Any competitive player can own you, advanced techniques or no. We really don't care about whether we can beat you, as you are not competitive, anyway.

2. That's not right at all. Again, you're seeing what you want to. We're afraid that beating EACH OTHER will be boring.

3. That's the thing. WE KNOW WE CAN BEAT NEWBS!!! ALL OF US, NOT MANY OF US! The problem is, that is not playing at a competitive level, which is where Brawl will have it's problems.

I still fail to see what the problem is, so no one can L-cancel that means that slow characters are slower. This is the cause of concern correct? However the fast charcaters are also affected, so they would have a quicker recovary.

But if L-Canceling was introduced in Brawl the gain would be proportionate for each character (Lets say cut the Lag time in half). Effectly there is no difference. Unless you planed to abuse this to players who were not aware of what L-Canceling was....

Explain.

Okay, I'm being lazy, I just copyed what I said in the other thread...basicly the same thing folks. ​

It's not the proportion of lag between characters that matters, it's lag to shield stun. We're afraid that every attack will be shield-grabbed.

 

[VEGA_224]

-Oh, I see...

-So because the "professionals" have numbed themselves silly from their 64/Melee EXPLOITS they complain about having to adapt to play the way the original game was meant to be...the way we're ALL going to be playing now. Huh.

*facepalm*

 

[WastingPenguins]

I still fail to see what the problem is, so no one can L-cancel that means that slow characters are slower. This is the cause of concern correct? However the fast charcaters are also affected, so they would have a quicker recovary.

But if L-Canceling was introduced in Brawl the gain would be proportionate for each character (Lets say cut the Lag time in half). Effectly there is no difference. Unless you planed to abuse this to players who were not aware of what L-Canceling was....

Explain.

Okay, I'm being lazy, I just copyed what I said in the other thread...basicly the same thing folks. ​

I had to think about this a little bit. I knew it didn't work like this, AT ALL, but I was having trouble articulating why. Anyway, I think I've got a pretty definitive answer to this, because yes, I understand that what you're saying SEEMS like it would be true.

It's not. Why? Because fast characters are already pretty fast-- thus they benefit less from L-canceling. Ever heard of the idea of diminishing returns? If you already have negligible lag like a lot of fast characters, l-canceling isn't as important as it is for heavies. In fact the faster and less laggy you are, the less important L-canceling is. Look at Melee Sheik for crying out loud. She has almost NO lag, and though it certainly helps in high level play, she needs l-canceling less than any character in the game.

BY the same token, the slower you are, and the more laggy, the more you need l-canceling.

To sum up why your "proportional" argument doesn't work: Slow characters need l-canceling DISPROPORTIONATELY more than faster characters do. Much, MUCH more.

 

[shizzlee]

Whenever you buy this game, you are going to think that it is the best thing you could ever stick into your Wii. You will play the game regardless, and you will still like it so why complain?

 

[Magus420]

-Oh, I see...

-So because the "professionals" have numbed themselves silly from their 64/Melee EXPLOITS they complain about having to adapt to play the way the original game was meant to be...the way we're ALL going to be playing now. Huh.

*facepalm*

-Oh, I see...

-This guy thinks l-cancelling in melee was an EXPLOIT. Huh.

*facepalm*

 

[WastingPenguins]

I still fail to see what the problem is, so no one can L-cancel that means that slow characters are slower. This is the cause of concern correct? However the fast charcaters are also affected, so they would have a quicker recovary.

But if L-Canceling was introduced in Brawl the gain would be proportionate for each character (Lets say cut the Lag time in half). Effectly there is no difference. Unless you planed to abuse this to players who were not aware of what L-Canceling was....

Explain.

Okay, I'm being lazy, I just copyed what I said in the other thread...basicly the same thing folks. ​

I had to think about this a little bit. I knew it didn't work like this, AT ALL, but I was having trouble articulating why. Anyway, I think I've got a pretty definitive answer to this, because yes, I understand that what you're saying SEEMS like it would be true.

It's not. Why? Because fast characters are already pretty fast-- thus they benefit less from L-canceling. Ever heard of the idea of diminishing returns? If you already have negligible lag like a lot of fast characters, l-canceling isn't as important as it is for heavies. In fact the faster and less laggy you are, the less important L-canceling is. Look at Melee Sheik for crying out loud. She has almost NO lag, and though it certainly helps in high level play, she needs l-canceling less than any character in the game.

BY the same token, the slower you are, and the more laggy, the more you need l-canceling.

To sum up why your "proportional" argument doesn't work: Slow characters need l-canceling DISPROPORTIONATELY more than faster characters do. Much, MUCH more.

 

[DTR]

this might as well be called "the noobs flame about ppl who are better than they are/were thread"
just because you guys cant do "advanced techniques" doesnt mean you have to flame us ppl who can. With or without advanced techniques, high level players who still tear you apart because we know much more than you do (don't even try to debate this). Sure... there is a level gap between players, but you cant say that because we know some tricks doesnt mean youll never catch up. Ive had friends who didnt play who actually put up somewhat of a challenge and ive played people who have played much longer than myself and beat them. I could care less that these techniques were taken out... eventually ill find new "h4x0r 3xpl01t5" and use them while watching you complain. Even if nothing useful is found out, ill still be better than most of you. Learn how to adjust... if you couldnt do it with melee cause its "not fair", then youll never be good at brawl.

 

[SheerMadness]

No L-Canceling = laggy *** aerials.

Laggy *** aerials = severe handicap for combos.

Making combos less viable = way more boring game.

It's really that simple. Anyone who doesn't think the loss of L-Canceling won't impact how fun the game is, is ********. Seriously what is a fighting game without combos?

 

[YSM]

Hey guys, how many Melee techniques were either glitches, or unintentional parts of the game? Quite a few, if I'm not mistaken. Now, who actually believes there WON'T be new glitches in Brawl? You're crazy if you think there won't be. Also, who thinks there WON'T be new techniques, either intentionally or unintentionally placed in the game? As old techniques pass away, new ones develop. I've gone through this same thing with Pokemon fans. ZOMG FIRE ATTACKS MIGHT BE PHYSICAL NOW?! THE GAME, IT IS RUINED. And then we adjust, we adapt, and we learn new techniques. The same will happen here. Stop whining. If you're truly an expert as you want so badly for us to believe, you'll adjust and adapt too.

 

[sv3]

No L-Canceling = laggy *** aerials.

Laggy *** aerials = severe handicap for combos.

Making combos less viable = way more boring game.

It's really that simple. Anyone who doesn't think the loss of L-Canceling won't impact how fun the game is, is ********. Seriously what is a fighting game without combos?

As if Smash compares to a real fighting game.

 

[5@/\/\U5]

uh guys, people in videos have seen several cases of aerials finishing with no lag upon landing (ie a falcon knee). Just because we don't know how it's done yet doesn't mean it can't be. People are hard at work im sure, and techniques for this, and many other things, will be discovered. It's a new game, and with it comes a relatively new playing style.

O, and about combos. They will be as viable as they once were because of the overall slightly increased amount of "floatiness" in the game. If you're enemy takes longer to hit the ground and tech recover, you will have more time to pull off combos

 

[WastingPenguins]

As if Smash compares to a real fighting game.

Good grief. REALLY? Brawl, what have you done with our beloved Smash Boards?

 

[Magus420]

uh guys, people in videos have seen several cases of aerials finishing with no lag upon landing (ie a falcon knee). Just because we don't know how it's done yet doesn't mean it can't be. People are hard at work im sure, and techniques for this, and many other things, will be discovered. It's a new game, and with it comes a relatively new playing style.

That's an autocancel. It's when you land beyond a certain point in the animation and you get regular landing lag (like you didn't attack). It requires you to start the attack well before you land, and it's not a safe alternative with most moves since there's generally a significant gap between when it hits and the time you need to wait before you can land.

 

[suzuki brawl]

that's a big problem

 

[Jackal478]

No, you're just a twitchy freak who cant stand move lag to balance the roster, you have to be TEH WINAR.

Have a good day. :D

 

[Dojo999]

Omg, I'm trying to resist it. But I fear I'm becoming a typical cynical forum goer. The kind that snaps at stupid questions and insults people. The type I saw when I first came here and said "Wow, what a ****". But I cant' hold this in.
This is a FIGHTING game. As long as you FIGHT, it is COMPETITIVE. Because they removed your style of fighting does not mean no one else will be able to fight competitvley. This is like saying if they changed cheez-its to cheez-bits, they would taste like ****. Its not going to turn into a button masher if you remove one tech. Man up and find a new way to play.

I honestly feel bad about this post and hope this isn't the deciding factor on how you see me. I don't usulally do this but all the negativity... just gettin to me. I gotta work on my zen or something.

 

[Jackal478]

Omg, I'm trying to resist it. But I fear I'm becoming a typical cynical forum goer. The kind that snaps at stupid questions and insults people. The type I saw when I first came here and said "Wow, what a ****". But I cant' hold this in.
This is a FIGHTING game. As long as you FIGHT, it is COMPETITIVE. Because they removed your style of fighting does not mean no one else will be able to fight competitvley. This is like saying if they changed cheez-its to cheez-bits, they would taste like ****. Its not going to turn into a button masher if you remove one tech. Man up and find a new way to play.

I honestly feel bad about this post and hope this isn't the deciding factor on how you see me. I don't usulally do this but all the negativity... just gettin to me. I gotta work on my zen or something.

You're right,

Plus, the main reason you see so much, is the fact that half of the boards is full of Psychos or Noobs.

 

[shadydentist]

Good god, people, theres no such thing as a 'correct' way to play smash. For the last time, stop hating on people for wanting to get good at this game/messing around with friends.

 

[Magus420]

No, you're just a twitchy freak who cant stand move lag to balance the roster, you have to be TEH WINAR.

Have a good day. :D

Balance? Yes. Peach keeping her float cancel to have no aerial attack lag, fast characters having low lag moves to begin with and many even having significantly reduced lag on them, while some slower characters keep nearly the entirety of the lag on their slow moves and simultaneously losing the huge lag reduction they needed to even be playable against fast characters to begin with is "balance".

 

[The Noob Legend]

Remember that Brawl is a family-friendly game as well.
Not just for hardcore gamers.

 

[Blatherskite]

Ok great, it'll be a competitive game... a really really really ****ty competitive game.

 

[Jackal478]

Balance? Yes. Peach keeping her float cancel to have no aerial attack lag, fast characters having low lag moves to begin with and many even having significantly reduced lag on them, while some slower characters keep nearly the entirety of the lag on their slow moves and simultaneously losing the huge lag reduction they needed to even be playable against fast characters to begin with is "balance".

You neglected the fact that heavy characters can actually beat fast ones, and this time around it doesnt take a Heavy Pro to beat a Fast Noob,

So, essentially, characters like Bowser make up for Lag and Speed in Strength and Durability.

There are also these magical things called commas, by the way.