Smash's Core Gameplay - Mindgames and Brawl

[Xengri]

lawl at this thread seriously

not at frost2k... but at the late 2007-2008 members trying to teach us what ''mindgames'' are

seeing stuff like xengri wrote shows that he doesn't know what Melee is about

as long as you have 3 options... the rock, the paper and the scissor (aka the initial attack, its counter, and the counter's counter)... you reach maximum depth already

paper beats rock
scissor beats paper
what beats scissor? lawlz its rock

you dont need tsunamis, AK47 rifles, lollipops, turd sandwiches

yes the game will look NICER, but it will not be DEEPER

its called yomi layer 3

Rick out

You're going to have to explain yourself more.
Ether that or, you miss read me.

You say you need three things.

The initial attack, its counter, and the counter's counter.

With in these three aspects you, have options.
(As in, you have many different options for you’re attack/or faking one, how you can counter, and how to counter a counter).

If all I did has a dashed attack whenever I ran towards my opponent, soon I would be predictable.
I would end up being shield grabbed.

I could dash towards then fake a attack a couple of times by jumping, but still that’s just two options for my initial attack.

Now, what if I wanted to dash then uptilt, then lead into a aerial combo?
While, I wouldn’t be able to if it wasn’t for crouch -cancel.

See, now I have more options.

And, even more things I can do to chain into a aerial combo, or maybe not even go for the aerial combo at all and just Wavedash backwards for spacing.


I can keep shuffling through all these options when dashing towards my opponent to keep him guessing and, bait him into what I want.
Same thing goes with his counter.
He could just roll (leaving him open if I predict where he goes) or he can wavedash backwards into a Fsmash or, whatever else.
He has options open to him.
Maybe if he predicts my attack (which would be much easier if I had more restraints) he can Dthrow chain grab me (depends on his and, my character) or, grab Fthrow into a SHFFL or, countless other options.
Same thing applies to my counter for his counter.

That’s my point.
Adv.techs Give us more options, making players less predictable.
More Options= More Mindgame potential

But, seeing as you’re confident I have no idea about what I talk about.
Give me your understanding on the subject you’re so much more knowledgeable on.

Brawl has new attacks, new normal techniques, and new physics. This isnt more? are you forgetting about all that?

As far as I'm aware of.
All characters have the same amount of attacks in their moveset (expect Final smashes, if you count those), so even if they are new, it's the same limit.

As for the new techs. (Perfect shield, footstool jump, etc.. correct?), no one is forgetting about that.

But, at the same time you can't turn a blind eye to the numerous doors that were closed when some Adv.techs were taken out.
Doors that, hopefully will be discovered to have been replaced.

 

[BigRick]

hehe frost is right for example Brawl actually has more options out of shield... new ATs were not needed for that, the only change was a reduction in shield drop frames

I think the problem is that too many ppl think that running forward then WDing backwards once your close to the opponent is a mindgame

 

[BigRick]

lol xengri why the wall of text

when you approach with sheik... shield, grab and dsmash are the only things you need

yes there are other moves but with these 3 you cover almost everything already geez you complicate stuff for no reason lol

 

[Nitoheilapine]

Sorry Bigrick if my argument didn't hold ground.

 

[Xengri]

lol xengri why the wall of text

when you approach with sheik... shield, grab and dsmash are the only things you need

yes there are other moves but with these 3 you cover almost everything already geez you complicate stuff for no reason lol

That wall of text is called backing a argument.
You know, the thing you can do when you know what you're talking about.

Sheik is who I main.
If you really believe that all you need to do is a running grab (horrible lag btw), shield (they call you out on the bluff and, you get grabbed for being predictable) and, Dsmash (They wavedash back and, wait till your ending lag to Fsmash you in the face. If it's Marth that Fsmash is a tipper. Have fun) then, I recommend rethinking your approach.

Any decent play will see right though you within the first minute of the match.

You may get a approaches in but, if you only use three patterns, they’ll counter it perfectly 33% of the time give or take a few.
And, that’s if you don’t give a forewarning to one of your patterns.

 

[BigRick]

its alright and Im sorry I think I was carried away and my post had an arrogant tone to it...

but yea xengri... you make up these long posts about all these hypothetical options while you can simply use the 3-4 most effective stuff that a character has in order to counter everything, it becomes a pain to read

and baiting is not a mindgame, it's just trying to abuse your opponent's reflexes

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Shield, grab and dsmash with Sheik can take you pretty **** far.

 

[BigRick]

That wall of text is called backing a argument.
You know, the thing you can do when you know what you're talking about.

Sheik is who I main.
If you really believe that all you need to do is a running grab (horrible lag btw), shield (they call you out on the bluff and, you get grabbed for being predictable) and, Dsmash (They wavedash back and, wait till your ending lag to Fsmash you in the face. If it's Marth that Fsmash is a tipper. Have fun) then, I recommend rethinking your approach.

Any decent play will see right though you within the first minute of the match.

You may get a approaches in but, if you only use three patterns, they’ll counter it perfectly 33% of the time give or take a few.
And, that’s if you don’t give a forewarning to one of your patterns.

too much theory... if you play the game enough you'll know that this stuff works (with good mindgames of course!)

lol this post really makes me smile... now go watch some drephen vids and figure stuff out by yourself, mr 4.0 average

EDIT: lawlz thank you Radical Dreamer for your approval!!!

 

[fr0st2k]

You're going to have to explain yourself more.
Ether that or, you miss read me.

You say you need three things.

The initial attack, its counter, and the counter's counter.

With in these three aspects you, have options.
(As in, you have many different options for you’re attack/or faking one, how you can counter, and how to counter a counter).

If all I did has a dashed attack whenever I ran towards my opponent, soon I would be predictable.
I would end up being shield grabbed.

I could dash towards then fake a attack a couple of times by jumping, but still that’s just two options for my initial attack.

Now, what if I wanted to dash then uptilt, then lead into a aerial combo?
While, I wouldn’t be able to if it wasn’t for crouch -cancel.

See, now I have more options.

And, even more things I can do to chain into a aerial combo, or maybe not even go for the aerial combo at all and just Wavedash backwards for spacing.


I can keep shuffling through all these options when dashing towards my opponent to keep him guessing and, bait him into what I want.
Same thing goes with his counter.
He could just roll (leaving him open if I predict where he goes) or he can wavedash backwards into a Fsmash or, whatever else.
He has options open to him.
Maybe if he predicts my attack (which would be much easier if I had more restraints) he can Dthrow chain grab me (depends on his and, my character) or, grab Fthrow into a SHFFL or, countless other options.
Same thing applies to my counter for his counter.

That’s my point.
Adv.techs Give us more options, making players less predictable.
More Options= More Mindgame potential

But, seeing as you’re confident I have no idea about what I talk about.
Give me your understanding on the subject you’re so much more knowledgeable on.

its time for you to learn mind games

Lesson #1

You talk about dashing towards the enemy ..(as opposed to wavedashing towards him ... LOL...difference?)

You said after dashing towards him your opponent will start to predict it, and counter. Yes true.

Then you said, you can start jumping...yeah true.

Ok, now lets get into the millions of different options you can do out of just dashing and jumping, using only the basic, core gameplay design techniques.

I dash towards you, i see you sheild, i keep running, turn and throw you.
I dash towards you, I jump, i start to fall down at you to do a neutral air, you shield, i double jump, you unshield, i fast fall, wherever i feel is acceptable for an opening
I dash towards you, I grab you ...? lol
I dash towards you, i duck, your shield grab missed (espeically with chars like sheik), and then i sweep you.
I dash towards you, i short hop, jump behind you, and do a back attack
I dash towards you, i jump backwards, fast fall, then
I dash towards you, I double jump, you think im an easy target. I do attack you with a neutral air, you shield, I position it so that i am behind you when i hit you, you get stunned, I turn and throw you.

Ok .. i could go on forever, and thats only with me dashing towards you and you probably shielding to try and get a shield grab. Infinite possibilities.

And when we remove "I wave dash at you and wavedash backwards!" Wow so the **** what? thats 1 out of 10000.

do you realize yet how insignificant wavedashing is as a mindgame?

 

[Xengri]

I’m not saying that grab, shield, and Dsmash isn’t useful (For sheik, poor Luigi gets hurt much more with out adv.techs), what I am saying is that, mixing up your approaches to keep them guessing will make you much, much better.

And, btw, Mindgame is a very board title (it’s flawed in that aspect) which includes baiting an opponent.

its time for you to learn mind games

Lesson #1

You talk about dashing towards the enemy ..(as opposed to wavedashing towards him ... LOL...difference?)

You said after dashing towards him your opponent will start to predict it, and counter. Yes true.

Then you said, you can start jumping...yeah true.

Ok, now lets get into the millions of different options you can do out of just dashing and jumping, using only the basic, core gameplay design techniques.

I dash towards you, i see you sheild, i keep running, turn and throw you.
I dash towards you, I jump, i start to fall down at you to do a neutral air, you shield, i double jump, you unshield, i fast fall, wherever i feel is acceptable for an opening
I dash towards you, I grab you ...? lol
I dash towards you, i duck, your shield grab missed (espeically with chars like sheik), and then i sweep you.
I dash towards you, i short hop, jump behind you, and do a back attack
I dash towards you, i jump backwards, fast fall, then
I dash towards you, I double jump, you think im an easy target. I do attack you with a neutral air, you shield, I position it so that i am behind you when i hit you, you get stunned, I turn and throw you.

Ok .. i could go on forever, and thats only with me dashing towards you and you probably shielding to try and get a shield grab. Infinite possibilities.

And when we remove "I wave dash at you and wavedash backwards!" Wow so the **** what? thats 1 out of 10000.

do you realize yet how insignificant wavedashing is as a mindgame?

I find it funny that you say you’re going to teach me mindgames when really, you thought me nothing.
Dashing was a example. Jumping was a example of what you can do out of a dash.

Look, that’s great that you listed somethings that can be done out of a dash with out adv.techs. Any good player knows these things.
But you fail to realizes that with Adv.techs, those options only become broader.
All they did was give you more/ better options. That’s the whole point.
If the options that they opened weren’t incredibly useful then how is it that a Adv.tech user has such a he advantage over a non Adv.tech user?
Dashing gives you the option to:
stop running (laggy)
Change directions (extremely laggy)
Dash attack (very situational, leaves you up with ending lag)
Jump forward or backward.

With CC alone you add you’re characters whole on land moveset to that list.

Is that not significant in making you less predictable?

Wavedash adds even more. ( I hope you were joking when you said wavedashing forward then backwards was the only for wavedash use as a approach. If so, then that shows what little of this subject you know about)

Can you advance towards then pull your shield out last second, while still moving forward with out wavedash?
Can you do a standing grab (less lag) while moving with out wavedash?
Can you jump in front of me to bait me into a Fsmash but, move backwards while shielding the attack with out waveland?

These things are anything but insignificant. And, that's only the surface.
With out them, your options are limited, in turn making you more predictable with less mind game possibilities.

How many times do I have to state this?

The options that you can draw out from the basic game mechanics may work for what opponents you play against. (Half of those approaches you gave as examples would never work against a good player. Especially double jumping as a approach to a grounded target. That's one of the biggest mistakes you can make and, is just begging for you to get juggled.)
However, when you get to the higher ups, it won’t cut it.
If they are insignificant then how come they are all used in high levels of play?
To look nice? Is that it?

 

[goodkid]

too many things to think about right now, time for some zzzs.

 

[fr0st2k]

I’m not saying that grab, shield, and Dsmash isn’t useful (For sheik, poor Luigi gets hurt much more with out adv.techs), what I am saying is that, mixing up your approaches to keep them guessing will make you much, much better.

And, btw, Mindgame is a very board title (it’s flawed in that aspect) which includes baiting an opponent.

lets start here. NOOBS get baited. A skilled smash player will never attack unless they know they will hit, or unless they themselves are baiting, in which case they know they will be safe.

I find it funny that you say you’re going to teach me mindgames when really, you thought me nothing.
Dashing was a example. Jumping was a example of what you can do out of a dash.

Look, that’s great that you listed somethings that can be done out of a dash with out adv.techs. Any good player knows these things.
But you fail to realizes that with Adv.techs, those options only become broader.
All they did was give you more/ better options. That’s the whole point.
If the options that they opened weren’t incredibly useful then how is it that a Adv.tech user has such a he advantage over a non Adv.tech user?
Dashing gives you the option to:
stop running (laggy)
Change directions (extremely laggy)
Dash attack (very situational, leaves you up with ending lag)
Jump forward or backward.

With CC alone you add you’re characters whole on land moveset to that list.

Is that not significant in making you less predictable?

What youre failing to realize is that when i jump, i can jump in any direction, I can change my angel as i fall, i can fast fall, I can attack, forward, backward, down and up, and i can use all my B moves. There are tons of options outside of wavedashing. I can use all those things listed above in any order, or however it will best suit my situation.

Wavedashing adds very little in the overall scheme of things.

Wavedash adds even more. ( I hope you were joking when you said wavedashing forward then backwards was the only for wavedash use as a approach. If so, then that shows what little of this subject you know about)

Can you advance towards then pull your shield out last second, while still moving forward with out wavedash?
Can you do a standing grab (less lag) while moving with out wavedash?
Can you jump in front of me to bait me into a Fsmash but, move backwards while shielding the attack with out waveland?

These things are anything but insignificant. And, that's only the surface.
With out them, your options are limited, in turn making you more predictable with less mind game possibilities.

How many times do I have to state this?

Im not saying its not a valid move, just that its hardly as important as you really think it is ,and that brawl has added enough new techniques (even crawling lol) that can replace wavedashes small array of attack openings.

You ask me 3 questions. I ask you, can't you play the game without these, and replace it with the other hundreds of combinations you are given the ability to use? My options are certainly not limited without advanced techniques. Are they less? Yeah, ive agreed with that since the beggining. Are they limited? CERTAINLY NOT.

The options that you can draw out from the basic game mechanics may work for what opponents you play against. (Half of those approaches you gave as examples would never work against a good player. Especially double jumping as a approach to a grounded target. That's one of the biggest mistakes you can make and, is just begging for you to get juggled.)
However, when you get to the higher ups, it won’t cut it.
If they are insignificant then how come they are all used in high levels of play?
To look nice? Is that it?

first off ... what move is going to start juggling sheiks nuetral A? hardly any moves will beat it if you fast fall with it. it has the priority of the gods. /back on topic

Yes .. actually, they are used to look nice. It makes it more entertaining to watch. Ive heard pros state this numerous times. Wavedashing with sheik is close to worthless.

 

[Yuna]

ah..finally someone who understands that 1 more option =/= 1 more mindgame
its not like "oh ! they added sidestep ! more mindgames lol ! oh ! they added airdodge!! even more mindgames !!"

mindgames aren't something countable

mindgames are just the fact of playing smart nothing more nothing less , no matter the amount of options you have

they depends on the player , not the game

What the... tell me, dear sir, how much mindgaming is there in the original Street Fighter II, really, where there's really not much you can do, at all?

Then compare it to Melee where there's lots of things you can do.

More options do indeed mean more mindgames. While some players can choose not to utilize said options (and therefore miss out on opportunities to mindgames), you cannot deny that the options give you more options for mindgaming.

dude ... are you serious? Are you totally ignoring EVERY post that concurs with my original point?

WOW!

Why can't he? You ignore every single post that doesn't agree with something you say.

 

[Blue sHell]

no .. i think its clear how blindly ignorant ... well , let me just say it ... how idiotic you are. You clearly are not an intelligent person. I bet your grades are average, nor that you were never very spectacular at anything you've ever done in your life. This goes for radical dreamer as well, and most of the other people on this board.

Sorry i had to say it, but you guys just ARENT understanding and i final hit my breaking point.

Advanced Techniques changed the way competitives played the game. THATS IT.

Advanced Techniques didnt ADD to the depth, it replaced other aspects of the game. REPLACED!

1+1-1 = 1.

God, im so sick of how many total idiots there are on this board. Blind sheep, with no individuality, no intelligence, no creativity, and you are so stuck in the little box that is melee, that you can see nothing outside of it.

This is the brawl discussion. If youre going to constantly pine for melee, then GO BACK TO THE MELEE BOARDS AND PLAY MELEE.

Tons of topics are out there trying to help you, trying to let you see the light, but you flat out REFUSE to accept it.

YOU KNOW WHAT! YOU NEVER WILL! LEAVE BRAWL ALONE. DONT EVEN BUY IT. Im trying to save you 50 dollars. You are so enthralled by melee your little brains wont let another game inside....it can't handle it.

In 2 years, i KNOW you all will be eating your words. Some player who is actually worth is salt, who knows somethign about the game will tell you that Brawl is better, and it will start to spread. And once everyone else knows it, as the little idiotic sheep you are, you will flock straight back to it.

I suggest you buy the game then. 2 years down the road when the formula is tried and true.

Yes, I felt like I had to quote your entire post...

Frost, you're getting ridiculous. You just took a jab at someone's intelligence because of this... That's terrible.

On a post before this one you said that ATs added slight* depth, but in your anger, in this post you say it added no depth.

=====================
Let me give you a scenerio.

Imagine Ike needs to anticipate an aerial approach from Fox while Ike is stationary. Theres a couple of things Ike could do that will either give him a free hit, grab, or set him up for a counterattack:

1. He could shield and attempt a shieldgrab
2. He could attempt to powershield it.
3. He could use the super armor on Eruption to score a hit.
4. He could try to catch him in an uptilt
5. He could spotdodge.
6. He could sideroll.

Those are what the basic game mechanics have to offer. The many possibilities make it so the Ike player could be relatively unpredicatable and the Fox player not to catch on and trick Ike right back.

BUT, there is one more option thanks to the help of ATs.

7. Ike could run backwards just slightly out of Fox's range and hyphen smash an Upsmash while still facing away from Fox.

And just for those that don't know, Ike's Upsmash is a 180degree attack that is slow, but punishes very well.

Did this REPLACE options? No. It just added more options, thus adding more depth to the fight itself due to the more probabilities there are at any given moment. All of the other options are just as important for the same reason that you must strive to be unpredictable and strive to predict your opponent.
====================

That is just one scenerio, frost. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You have to examine who is being unbendable here in this argument and who is being blindly ignorant. Try your absolute hardest to consider the fact that you might be wrong before shooting out name callings like you have been.

This last post of yours is ****ing disgusting, frost. I can't believe you would do that, opening yourself for attack from people that might not even know what they're talking about, but just feel the need to attack you for making them think outside the box. From that post on, you're dead to me on these boards, I really can't see myself ever taking you seriously for a very very long time knowing that you react in this way in your mind. I usually apologize after taking a jab at someone in an argument, but I won't this time because I think that you even know that you deserve it in this particular occasion.

Frost, reply to this. I didn't write it out for no reason, and you've seemed to skim right past it.

 

[Yuna]

As has already been established in other threads, fr0st2k consistently ignores everything that's a valid argument against his claims/positions/arguments and instead goes on a flaming-spree of whoever bested him.

 

[Thino]

What the... tell me, dear sir, how much mindgaming is there in the original Street Fighter II, really, where there's really not much you can do, at all?

Then compare it to Melee where there's lots of things you can do.

More options do indeed mean more mindgames. While some players can choose not to utilize said options (and therefore miss out on opportunities to mindgames), you cannot deny that the options give you more options for mindgaming.

yes , you said it yourself more options in general give you more options for mindgaming
but mindgames are about how the player utilizes these options , not about their quantities.
proof is that a player with less tech skill , thus using less options can still beat a player that uses more techs , you can't disagree with that

 

[slikvik]

What is the point of this post???? Are you some kind of idiot? What relevance does this have AT ALL towards the topic.

I have played Street Fighter, all of them, Guilty Gear too, Soul caliber, Tekken tag, Counter Strike, WoW, EQ, Quake, Unreal, Goldeneye, Mario Kart, Diablo 1/2. Starcraft, Warcraft, AOE/K

And not only that .. but i played ALL of them a LOT! I was great at ALL of them. What competitive games have you played?

When you have more experience with games as i do, then i will listen your opinion.

somehow i doubt this...

 

[Yuna]

yes , you said it yourself more options in general give you more options for mindgaming
but mindgames are about how the player utilizes these options , not about their quantities.
proof is that a player with less tech skill , thus using less options can still beat a player that uses more techs , you can't disagree with that

For the love of, you just agreed with me yet disagreed for whatever reason.

Melee had more options, hence Melee had more mindgaming potential. Can you agree on this? Brawl, as we know it at the moment, does not come close to Melee for mindgaming options when played at the highest level.

You just agreed to this. So why are you still arguing about it?!

We're not talking about two players on a relatively low level! That's never what you go by when talking about theory fighter. You go by two players at very high level playing each other. And Brawl's options are much less than Melee's (if you use all options that aren't banned)!

fr0st2k, even if you were experienced in Competitive Fighting in general, it does not give you more credibility in someone more experienced in Competitive Smash. Also, I very much doubt you were "great" at those games.

For one thing, you used the term "great". For another:
Which game and character am I talking about:
* 3B -> 33KA.
* 2mk -> SA
* Who can cancel their aerials with an airdash?

If you're so great at the games you namedropped, you should immediately know what I'm talking about since it's two of the most popular combos (and characters) in both games. The third one is also very obvious if you've played Accent Core.

 

[Yuna]

lets start here. NOOBS get baited. A skilled smash player will never attack unless they know they will hit, or unless they themselves are baiting, in which case they know they will be safe.

No, they get baited too. Just not by obvious things. That's why it's called mindgames.

What youre failing to realize is that when i jump, i can jump in any direction, I can change my angel as i fall, i can fast fall, I can attack, forward, backward, down and up, and i can use all my B moves. There are tons of options outside of wavedashing. I can use all those things listed above in any order, or however it will best suit my situation.

And none of these existed in Melee? And none of these were as effective if not moreso in Melee?

They removed wavedashing, check. What did they add to boost the other options?! Yes, there are other things outside of wavedashing. But since wavedashing is now gone, there are less options (because of wavedashing being wrong). Stop ignoring the fact that you're wrong by namedropping things that are not new!

We also did all of those things depending on the situation in Melee. Anyone who spams wavedashing everywhere all the time and for everything was a bad player... or they were Luigi or ICs, I guess.

Wavedashing adds very little in the overall scheme of things.

Wrong. I've told you why on countless occasions.

Im not saying its not a valid move, just that its hardly as important as you really think it is ,and that brawl has added enough new techniques (even crawling lol) that can replace wavedashes small array of attack openings.

Name them. I've asked you to do this repeatedly. Crawling is 100% useless.

You ask me 3 questions. I ask you, can't you play the game without these, and replace it with the other hundreds of combinations you are given the ability to use? My options are certainly not limited without advanced techniques. Are they less? Yeah, ive agreed with that since the beggining. Are they limited? CERTAINLY NOT.

What are these "hundreds of combinations" that were added (yes, added... because unless they were added or made better, they all existed in Melee. The fact that wavedashing is now gone means there's less options. Unless they added options or made old ones better, there are less options!).

first off ... what move is going to start juggling sheiks nuetral A? hardly any moves will beat it if you fast fall with it. it has the priority of the gods. /back on topic

Have you played Brawl? Sheik's Nair is nerfed, for one thing. For another, all characters have less hitstun, so comboing is hard in general. For yet another, Marth can still combo Sheik (well maybe not anymore with the patch).

Yes .. actually, they are used to look nice. It makes it more entertaining to watch. Ive heard pros state this numerous times. Wavedashing with sheik is close to worthless.

Wavedashing with Sheik is close to useless? Really? What game were you playing?

 

[Thino]

For the love of, you just agreed with me yet disagreed for whatever reason.

Melee had more options, hence Melee had more mindgaming potential. Can you agree on this? Brawl, as we know it at the moment, does not come close to Melee for mindgaming options when played at the highest level.

You just agreed to this. So why are you still arguing about it?!

We're not talking about two players on a relatively low level! That's never what you go by when talking about theory fighter. You go by two players at very high level playing each other. And Brawl's options are much less than Melee's (if you use all options that aren't banned)!

I agree with this totally , maybe we're not arguing about the same thing <_<

well nvm...

 

[S623]

AT's add options. Therefore, they add more possible mindgames. In fact, the only bad thing about more AT's is that there are more for one to master.

Can't we just end this and say that Brawl will develop more ATs over time?

 

[Nobie]

Here's the big secret to so-called "Advanced Techniques" that many of you are ignoring, and this applies to any game, not just Smash Bros.

Advanced Techniques as it seems to be defined by everyone here, that is, quick button combinations or executions resulting in added effects for a character, do not NECESSARILY add depth to the game. In fact it may detract from it!

It is not an automatic process: More Advanced Techniques != More Options

It can, but not always. The problem occurs if one "advanced technique" is so good that it actually reduces the amount of mindgames by being the overwhelmingly better option. A classic example is the fire ball in Street Fighter II vs the fire ball in later SF games, such as III and the Alpha series. In SFII there is no air blocking, there is no parry, there is no way to conveniently get past the fire ball or render it useless. Thus, because there are fewer advanced techniques, the fire ball has MORE depth to it.

Now I'm not saying Wavedashing or Dashdancing or whatever made Melee less deep. But we all know that the game is **** lucky that these techniques haven't harmed the game to the point of unplayability. Once again though, what I'm arguing against is not any specific advanced techniques, but this notion that they can only be good for the game, that there is no risk of them backfiring and killing not only Balance but also Depth.

 

[S623]

It can, but not always. The problem occurs if one "advanced technique" is so good that it actually reduces the amount of mindgames by being the overwhelmingly better option. A classic example is the fire ball in Street Fighter II vs the fire ball in later SF games, such as III and the Alpha series.

But, see, an AT isn't necessarily just a quick combinations of buttons. It could be an exploitation of the games programming or just a strategy someone developed. Depending on our definitions, it's may or may not be an AT.

In SFII there is no air blocking, there is no parry, there is no way to conveniently get past the fire ball or render it useless. Thus, because there are fewer advanced techniques, the fire ball has MORE depth to it.

Yes, but see, if you had has those techniques, someone couldn't win by just spamming the fireball. Spamming isn't deep. The fireball isn't deep. If anything, that means there's less depth to the whole game by making it "Who can spam faster?" Those techniques could produce a whole variety of options to the game.

Now I'm not saying Wavedashing or Dashdancing or whatever made Melee less deep. But we all know that the game is **** lucky that these techniques haven't harmed the game to the point of unplayability. Once again though, what I'm arguing against is not any specific advanced techniques, but this notion that they can only be good for the game, that there is no risk of them backfiring and killing not only Balance but also Depth.

Yes, we are **** lucky. But, unless someone finds an AT that's easy to pull off and works like Ness' Yo-Yo glitch, I don't think that scenario is all that likely. And besides, there's ALWAYS... Let me repeat, ALWAYS a chance of a technique backfiring if you're fighting a skilled player.

 

[Yuna]

Here's the big secret to so-called "Advanced Techniques" that many of you are ignoring, and this applies to any game, not just Smash Bros.

Advanced Techniques as it seems to be defined by everyone here, that is, quick button combinations or executions resulting in added effects for a character, do not NECESSARILY add depth to the game. In fact it may detract from it!

No, not really.

It adds options, hence it adds more depth. If it's not good, then you are free not to use it. It still adds depth and options (option = Something you can choose to use).

It is not an automatic process: More Advanced Techniques != More Options

An advanced technique is an option.

It can, but not always. The problem occurs if one "advanced technique" is so good that it actually reduces the amount of mindgames by being the overwhelmingly better option. A classic example is the fire ball in Street Fighter II vs the fire ball in later SF games, such as III and the Alpha series. In SFII there is no air blocking, there is no parry, there is no way to conveniently get past the fire ball or render it useless. Thus, because there are fewer advanced techniques, the fire ball has MORE depth to it.

It does not reduce the amount of mindgames. It gives you more techniques to utilize mindgames with. Show me a single good player who's won/lost solely due to wavedashing, like someone wavedashed and wham! Someone lost! Or someone did an L-cancel and wham! Someone lost.

It's what you do with the wavedash and L-cancel that matters. It that's called mindgames.

The fact that the Hadoken is much more powerful in SF2 does not make it deeper. There's an easy way to get past it: It's called jumping. Hardly as effective as a parry, but it still works.

Now I'm not saying Wavedashing or Dashdancing or whatever made Melee less deep.

Then how come you just said:
"In fact it may detract from it!"

But we all know that the game is **** lucky that these techniques haven't harmed the game to the point of unplayability. Once again though, what I'm arguing against is not any specific advanced techniques, but this notion that they can only be good for the game, that there is no risk of them backfiring and killing not only Balance but also Depth.

If they had, we'd banned them. Many fighting games have techniques that render them unplayable. And they ban them.

More options does not necessarily mean better things. More options just mean more options. We can choose whether or not to use them. We can even choose to ban them. But a game with extremely less options than a similar one is an inferior one. And your entire argument here made no sense, it's like you tried to confuse people with convoluted logic.

 

[Ballistaboy]

I disagree the reason melee was so good was because of the AT's that created more mind games, and the fact that AT's set competitive players so far ahead of normal casual players.

With AT's a good player can be very fast and in the end giving him MANY more options and opportunities to attack, but with a casual player they will be slower and played with.

I think we need to give brawl sometime before we make too many assumptions. It will have its own AT's in my opinion, I dont think Sakurai would do that seeing how popular they made Melee...

 

[Yuna]

I think we need to give brawl sometime before we make too many assumptions. It will have its own AT's in my opinion, I dont think Sakurai would do that seeing how popular they made Melee...

See, this is where you're making blind assumptions.

"Sakurai probably put some AT's in there."

But it doesn't look like it. We've been trying to discover new ATs for a while now. Yet very little new things outside of what we discovered the first week have been discovered. Sakurai also removed a bunch of ATs and made the rest much easier to do. This tells us that if there are any ATs in there, they're very easy to do and not hidden ATs that require a lot of commands.

Because of this, we should've found them all already had there been a whole bunch of hidden ATs since Sakurai wouldn't have introduced a bunch of hidden ATs that are hard to perform in a game he himself said was "dumbed down" (paraphrased).

 

[Nobie]

Stuff

I said "may detract from it" saying that it is possible for a game's advanced techniques to make it a worse playing experience. I then mentioned Melee as an example where these "advanced techniques" have managed NOT to be for the worse.

What I'm having issue with is this automatic assumption that more advanced techniques means more options means better depth. It's what you're all looking for, right? The search for advanced techniques so that the game can be "as deep" as Melee.

And as for my first comment, in regards to seeing the definition of advanced techniques, I use it in contrast to LONG TERM planning or achieving amazing things with simple, basic techniques such that they become advanced, for which none of the listed advanced techniques qualify. L-Cancel? Instant. Wavedash? Relatively instant. Dashdancing I might give to you because it's using basic running in a unique way, but it's still pretty much an instant, short-term thing.

Again, I wasn't saying that Wavedashing necessarily detracted from the game. In an aesthetic sense, perhaps, but in a tournament I can see how it add options. The very nature of the Wavedash is that it lets you move forwards or backwards quickly while having access to a greater amount of your arsenal than a running attack. More options.

But the statement touted here isn't "Wavedashing gives more options," it's that "Advanced Techniques give more options." And yes, on a superficial level this is true. It's something more to do. It's an added alternative. What I am arguing against however, goes deeper than this. When a technique is good to the point that it completely shapes the way the game is played and reduces the effectiveness of other options that it, in a broader sense, limits your options. These techniques do not have to be game-breaking either. Techniques can still be "fair" but still detract from the depth of a game, and the number of options presented.

To veer off onto a slightly different note for a second, just because a game has fewer advanced techniques does not mean a game has fewer options overall. A game can have plenty of options, tons of them, and they can all be derived from basic techniques and gameplay.

Want an example? In Brawl, certain characters can attack AFTER using their recovery moves! No one could do this in Melee! I would say for those characters, such as Sonic and G&W, it is a Big Deal, and adds a lot of depth and complexity to their gameplay. It is not advanced at all, in execution or in basic concept. Hit Up + B, then kick a guy in the face.

But it opens up so many opportunities for these characters. G&W can now use his recovery OFFENSIVELY to chase people into the air. He can still use it defensively to get back on the stage or escape harm. Combined with the Key, G&W now has the ability to travel up and down very quickly, giving him a command over the air that he didn't have previously.

So to think that a game suffers from lack of advanced techniques and is thus a worse game is a fallacy. It has the potential to be a worse game, yes, and to have fewer options, but to also limit yourself to the pursuit of these advanced techniques is basically seeing the trees and not the forest.

 

[Yuna]

I said "may detract from it" saying that it is possible for a game's advanced techniques to make it a worse playing experience. I then mentioned Melee as an example where these "advanced techniques" have managed NOT to be for the worse.

ATs can only detract from depth if they're inherently broken and ruin the game. Those are very few. But ATs would still only be an option. We'd have the option not to use them.

What I'm having issue with is this automatic assumption that more advanced techniques means more options means better depth. It's what you're all looking for, right? The search for advanced techniques so that the game can be "as deep" as Melee.

No, I want more options. I could care less if they're techniques, advanced techniques or just game engine based thingies. As long as we got any whatsoever.

Where have I said that I want only ATs? I keep using the word "options".

And as for my first comment, in regards to seeing the definition of advanced techniques, I use it in contrast to LONG TERM planning or achieving amazing things with simple, basic techniques such that they become advanced, for which none of the listed advanced techniques qualify. L-Cancel? Instant. Wavedash? Relatively instant. Dashdancing I might give to you because it's using basic running in a unique way, but it's still pretty much an instant, short-term thing.

Too bad not much in Brawl is really new. There's no enough new things to make it as "amazing" as Melee was, especially since a lot of things have been removed or made worse. Almost everything that remains in Brawl was already in Melee. We used some of it, we didn't use some of it. Why not? Because we had other, much better options in Melee.

How amazing one can be is limited by one's options. The world's greatest pianist can do wonders with a kiddie keyboard. But give him/her the best piano known to man and they'll be amazing.

Again, I wasn't saying that Wavedashing necessarily detracted from the game. In an aesthetic sense, perhaps, but in a tournament I can see how it add options. The very nature of the Wavedash is that it lets you move forwards or backwards quickly while having access to a greater amount of your arsenal than a running attack. More options.

So we agree?

But the statement touted here isn't "Wavedashing gives more options," it's that "Advanced Techniques give more options." And yes, on a superficial level this is true. It's something more to do. It's an added alternative. What I am arguing against however, goes deeper than this. When a technique is good to the point that it completely shapes the way the game is played and reduces the effectiveness of other options that it, in a broader sense, limits your options. These techniques do not have to be game-breaking either. Techniques can still be "fair" but still detract from the depth of a game, and the number of options presented.

AT's always give more options. How do Ats not give more options?! Said options might be bad options, but they'll be options nonetheless!

The other options will still remain! Whether we use them or not is irrelevant, they'll still exist. An option is optional. You don't have to use it. And why do we use only certain options? Because they're better. If we remove them, then we're stuck with the inferior options... and with less options to choose from whatsoever.

Did the existence of wavedashing in any way remove any options from Melee? Casual players chose not to wavedash and used other options. I choose to use wavedash + foxtrotting + dashing because that's my choice.

So to think that a game suffers from lack of advanced techniques and is thus a worse game is a fallacy. It has the potential to be a worse game, yes, and to have fewer options, but to also limit yourself to the pursuit of these advanced techniques is basically seeing the trees and not the forest.

The game suffers a lack of options, which is why it's a worse games. I could care less where said options came from as long as we had them.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

(I'm definately being presumptious here)

To me, it just seems like with wavedashing out (becasue that's what this is all coming down to in my eyes), Brawl is not as good. I can respect that, I used wavedashing, I thought it was great. But Brawl is a new game, less options or not.

Melee hands down has more intense and even more in-depth gameplay so far, that's impossible to deny. However, Brawl has it's share of techniques both new and old. Brawl will play much differently and I can see that already.

It's just too early to say which has better mindgames or balancing because (as far as I know) no one has really blown a character to its absolute full potentiel. Maybe this is why Brawl seems less in-depth?

Since Melee was so established people had found inumerable strategies and techniques... Brawl hasn't reached that level yet. It's a matter of giving it time, and THEN seeing how it compares. The game was just released not to long ago for crying out loud.

I loved Melee's gameplay. It was quick and fast. That was great, and now I crave something a bit different, which is Brawl. Brawl is just going to be different. It's the same core-game, though.

 

[Nitoheilapine]

It seems this topic has been well thought out by both sides, well... Not upholded by frost very well, but the mindgame depth is becoming a rather deep arguement. I don't intend to stop this, but from what I read, people are now just restating facts over thus the arguement is dwindling.

From the Phoenix Wright Games, I declare to show some Evidence! Just kidding. But evidence would make this a whole lot easier -thinks-. Maybe a few clips or something.

 

[BigRick]

more options does mean more depth in terms of things you need to know, things you need to master in order to play at a high level

more options doesn't mean more mindgames (maximum mindgame depth is already achieved when you have 3 options)

baiting an opponent (either by WDing or DDing or jumping or whatever) is not strategy, it's simply trying to take advantage of your opponent's reflexes

tldr: more options = more overall game knowledge =/= more mindgames

lol Yuna an option doesn't add depth if its not usable

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Gotta comment on this, while ignoring frost2k's fail. Someone from an "intermediate" perspective.

AT's always give more options. How do Ats not give more options?! Said options might be bad options, but they'll be options nonetheless!

Because Nobie's pretty much right. Say you have 8 given choices in a situation. However, there's three that stand out in some way. These three options are so good that other options are useless in comparison. Now say we take away those three options. Indeed, there are now less options, but the five remaining options are now viable because they are no longer superseded in use by the other three.

The other options will still remain! Whether we use them or not is irrelevant, they'll still exist. An option is optional. You don't have to use it. And why do we use only certain options? Because they're better. If we remove them, then we're stuck with the inferior options... and with less options to choose from whatsoever.

Yes, but since those so called good options are gone the inferior ones can now see use instead of being tossed by the wayside.

 

[Eggm]

It really doesn't sound like you played this game competitively. "Mindgames" (hate this word) don't need to be impressive; they just need to work well. Wavedashing does work well in melee so long as you're playing a character other than Link or Peach.

Checkers and Chess are games of similar design. You can develop strategies in both of them; both of them favor "mindgames." But that doesn't change the fact that one is an inherently deeper, more strategic game with more variables to consider and more options at each player's disposal. Brawl is Checkers and Melee is Chess.

This is golden.

 

[Yuna]

more options does mean more depth in terms of things you need to know, things you need to master in order to play at a high level

This we agree on.

more options doesn't mean more mindgames (maximum mindgame depth is already achieved when you have 3 options)

More options doesn't necessarily mean more mindgames but most ATs in Melee (options, that is) gave you mindgaming options.

baiting an opponent (either by WDing or DDing or jumping or whatever) is not strategy, it's simply trying to take advantage of your opponent's reflexes

How is baiting an opponent with a WD not mindgames? It's trying to trick him into doing something and punishing him for it.

Seriously, what do people think "mind games" means?

tldr: more options = more overall game knowledge =/= more mindgames

Um, yeah?

lol Yuna an option doesn't add depth if its not usable

Unless it's banned, it's usable. And if it's just not as good as this other option, it'll still be there, available as an option free to be used should you choose to. And not everyone always goes for the best thing. Because that in itself is also a mindgame.

Depth does not have to be used frequently to be depth. It's enough if it just exists. Because depth just means what's in the game. A Marth can choose not to use chaingrabs. Does that mean Marth's chaingrabs don't exist or add depth to the game?

 

[Yuna]

Because Nobie's pretty much right. Say you have 8 given choices in a situation. However, there's three that stand out in some way. These three options are so good that other options are useless in comparison. Now say we take away those three options. Indeed, there are now less options, but the five remaining options are now viable because they are no longer superseded in use by the other three.

Those 3 options are now gone and the remaining options have not been changed. There's less options, less thing you can do. And the things you can do are inferior to what you could do before.

The fact that focus has shifted means nothing. There's still less options/depth.

 

[BigRick]

How is baiting an opponent with a WD not mindgames? It's trying to trick him into doing something and punishing him for it.

yes baiting tricks your opponent into doing something, but doing so doesn't necessarily mean that you are outsmarting him...

for example there's a big difference between landing dash dance to grab with Peach and dash dance to grab with Falcon

Peach can land dash grabs because her dash attack and other high priority approaches put fear into an opponent making them do the wrong move and shield... its mostly conditionning and you know this already

On the other side Falcon is so fast that your opp has to react early in order to counter the grab, couple that with sum1 with crappy reflexes and you can land 20 grabs in a row against someone even though they know that you gon grab, just dash dance and bait the grab's counter

 

[S.R. XXVII]

This thread makes me laugh. Good job guys. See you on Sunday.

 

[fr0st2k]

It seems this topic has been well thought out by both sides, well... Not upholded by frost very well, but the mindgame depth is becoming a rather deep arguement. I don't intend to stop this, but from what I read, people are now just restating facts over thus the arguement is dwindling.

From the Phoenix Wright Games, I declare to show some Evidence! Just kidding. But evidence would make this a whole lot easier -thinks-. Maybe a few clips or something.

you mean .. upheld?

and i said everything i needed to in my first post. Its not my fault people are unwilling to believe it.

Advanced techniques only changed the way melee was played. Yes it added more options, but not many. People relied too heavily on advanced techniques ( they HAD to .. because they worked better) . The fact is that the game has enough in in front of advanced techniques to keep it plenty competitive.

Games will no longer be based on advanced techniques. It will be based on what the game was meant for. This is brawl, not brawlee

Once again. in melee, advanced techniiques were great. They worked, so they were used. but they werent needed for a complex game.

 

[Yuna]

yes baiting tricks your opponent into doing something, but doing so doesn't necessarily mean that you are outsmarting him...

How is it not outsmarting him? And how will Brawl be any different? How do you not find openings by tricking your opponents into leaving themselves open?

And how is tricking someone not outsmarting them? If someone dashes towards a Sheik and they F-tilt, only to have that someoen wavedash back into a dashattack, how did they not just outsmart the Sheik? They anticipated their move and then punished.

If the Sheik had chosen not to F-tilt and instead dashattacked/dashgrabbed herself, then she would've outsmarted the other person.

for example there's a big difference between landing dash dance to grab with Peach and dash dance to grab with Falcon

How? One is harder to do because Peach's grabrange sucks?

Peach can land dash grabs because her dash attack and other high priority approaches put fear into an opponent making them do the wrong move and shield... its mostly conditionning and you know this already

Captain Falcon has Nair, Fair and the moonwalk. Also, Dash Dance grabbing with Peach, not very easy because of the range.

Some things are easier to do, others aren't. Some require more mindgames, others less. Doesn't mean you didn't just mindgame someone if you trick them or bait them into leaving an opening.

On the other side Falcon is so fast that your opp has to react early in order to counter the grab, couple that with sum1 with crappy reflexes and you can land 20 grabs in a row against someone even though they know that you gon grab, just dash dance and bait the grab's counter

And this means I'm not using mindgames because? If they've got crappy reflexes, then they're a crappy player. Crappy players get mindgamed by pretty much everything.

 

[Yuna]

you mean .. upheld?

and i said everything i needed to in my first post. Its not my fault people are unwilling to believe it.

Because maybe you're, gasp, wrong?

Why are you so fast to believe that we're all wrong and you're right when we actually have valid arguments for our standpoint while you always reply with either silence of flamign?