So let's talk about 3.6 Lucas...

[Eisen]

I wasn't trying to make it sound like he's terrible or anything. He's definitely good, it's just my opinion that he doesn't "flow" in the way characters like Wolf and Ike seem to for me. All I asked for were a few minor changes that would ever-so-slightly buff him in the way he was intended to play, and that I can't put time or effort into him because if I'm going to spend that much effort off of Smash 4, I want it to be on a character I REALLY enjoy playing. 3.6 Lucas is not one of those characters for me. It doesn't help that the PM scene in South Carolina basically died when Smash 4 came out--I also can't run netplay, and while I'm in the process of trying to get 3.6 wifi to work, nobody seems to want to help me or know how. Usually the answer is "get netplay" and I hate it because I want to see how far I /CAN/ push the character. I want to be proven wrong, but I just can't get over how jank it feels to pull magnet out on shield. If it were given 1-2 frames less of shield hitlag, I think the move would be much better off.

 

[Kipcom]

Magnet on shield doesn't feel that bad, at least to me. Have you gotten complete control over when you're able to jump/wavedash out?

If you're a bit delayed in doing so, then yeah it feels extremely clunky (had this issue for like the first 2 weeks of PM 3.5).
The only reason I'd remove some hitlag on shield at this point would be so that I don't screw up magnet -> DJC uair. It's really annoying when I do aerial magnet close to the ground and land before the uair is able to come out, making me do an up smash instead.

But yeah, it's really unfortunate that PM in your scene has died down and that you can't find an online solution. I have no idea how wifi works now so I'm not your guy to ask about that one. Also, I wasn't trying to accuse you of calling the character bad or anything. I was just giving my complete opinions on Lucas as a whole, which is why the post was so huge lol.

Maybe you can try to make an effort with some people in your area and get PM hyped there again. It might end out being worth the work you put into trying to rebuild a scene.

 

[Scraket]

maybe he's just not the character for you then?

 

[Kipcom]

maybe he's just not the character for you then?

This is also possible.

God knows there's so many characters I'd love to play as in this game, but can't because their moveset just doesn't sit with how I want to play. That or they have overall playstyles that I don't like.

Looking at you Snake, Sonic, Luigi, and Link/Toon Link..

 

[D e l t a]

There's always a few niche moves that feel right to a player. For me, I enjoy having a nice Fair: Lucas, GnW, Marth, Tlink, Falcon, hell even Bowser and Olimar, or just a good grab game: Lucas, Yoshi, Bowser, Snake, etc... My buddy Railz enjoys good DownB's and great dash attacks / Uair / Ftilt. Maybe find a character that has a move similar to magnet?

Either way, the move is different now, but after a while of practice it will begin to feel like 3.0 to an extent. It took every Lucas player many weeks to adjust; however, those who were dedicated to the character put in the extra time and practice after taking a short leave from the game. All the Lucas players who practiced are back at it and better than ever- Kip, Hyperflame, Ruin, myself, etc.

==

Put at least a week of practice into the character and let us know how that goes. I guarantee you that by now, you've forgotten the 3.0 muscle memory timings (unless you haven't updated for some reason). I have few players I practice with as well, but that hasn't stopped me from becoming proficient with the character.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Eh , I just want him to have a slightly better neutral/rush down game. I can't be nearly as aggressive as Fox or Roy, which doesn't make sense considering his character arc-type.

 

[D e l t a]

Well the thing about Lucas is that you have to establish your pressure. Yes, it helps having faced an opponent who played against say Neon / 3.02 Lucas and already knows, fears, and respects Lucas. At low levels you can honestly get away with PKF spam then do any sort of magnet / aerial stuff then convert off a Dair / Dthrow -> Upsmash. However, Lucas has to be played more patient at higher levels.

Most of Lucas' moves are safe for poking, but not great to rush in with. You have to be precise and calculated with how you maintain stage control and assert pressure. Better players will catch on to how you approach / exert pressure pressure and adapt their escape patterns accordingly. PKF isn't as free once players understand SDI down / fastfall -> shield or for the floaties, attacking/jumping out of hitstun.

Playing well with Lucas or any character at top level requires a good understanding of neutral game. Every decent Lucas, myself included, knows how to combo and punish easy mistakes. It's the top Lucas players that win neutral and don't blatantly rush in who see victory and success.

 

[D e l t a]

@ T trancex Here's why I like having a tether grab over a normal grab

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

So do you guys remember that double jump land tech where you could snap to the platform above you using the small dip in your double jump from below? Well I just figured out that you can do a drop down mag into double jump land. This has a lot of uses like shield pressure as you have no landing lag (not a hard landing) and you don't have the initial jump frames because you are using an aerial mag. So you effectively can act 14 frames sooner than doing a grounded mag into WD in place, or 4 frames for a jump. This tech is a little tricky to pull off because you technically need to be frame perfect, but it is a lot easier to do this tech rather than doing a raw double jump land.

I don't really have someone to practice with atm so I can't experiment situations where this will shine. So I'd would love to see what others can do with this.

 

[D e l t a]

I'll try labbing magnet stuff in October when I'm done with this term. I'm going to brush up on all magnet tech and pressure at that point so I'll let you know how it goes

I'm also in the process of consistently being able to perform raw grounded DJL in attempts to work platform tech chases better.

God I love this character

 

[Kipcom]

tfw you've been using DJL for months but there's hardly any footage of you using it to show off.

all the cool stuff happens off camera

 

[D e l t a]

tfw you've been using DJL for months but there's hardly any footage of you using it to show off.

Oh don't get me wrong here, I've been using DJL for a while, but only recently dedicating time towards perfecting the tech

all the cool stuff happens off camera

Story of my life.... only recently has MI been getting streams :/

 

[trancex]

Yes, more DJLs! 3.6 has given us this wonderful gift in easier DJL, and this tech has sooooo much potential. Especially with a tool like magnet to follow up with easy tech chases to meaty combos.

Please, please get some videos guys.

 

[trancex]

@ T trancex Here's why I like having a tether grab over a normal grab

Wow, you literally could not have picked a better example.

I was mainly thinking about the Fox matchup, where you can actually shield grab high nairs and any dair (depending on the timing of the dair, input timing of the grab, etc). I know that attempting shield grabs against Fox is pretty bad most of the time, since a good Fox player usually won't hit high nairs on shield, or will cross you up with nair/dair. So my point is kind of moot at top level play.

 

[D e l t a]

Wow, you literally could not have picked a better example.

Lucky find haha

==

Regular tether grab works great as a followup to a Fair, but that's about the only time I grab in the Fox MU unless I know they'll shield after PKF or Nair at low %.

The only time I realistically see a shield grab against Fox, speaking at a mid-level of play or higher of course, is if they mis-space an Upsmash (say they're attempting dash attack upsmash and you fall fast enough to get shield before upsmash), or if they have good spacing on upsmash, but you shield DI towards them and grab immediately after being out of shield stun. Almost every other move of Fox's is safe enough they won't be shield grabbed.

It's honestly not worth it as the high risk / medium-high reward can cost you a guaranteed 20-50% (or a stock) despite Lucas being able to do the same depending on the stage. Fox can live about 10-20% longer than Lucas on average, so 20-30% to Lucas is like 40-50% on Fox. Your best bet on punishing Upsmash OoS is to throw a PKF and force them to shield or run back. Same thing goes for punishing Mario's Dsmash on shield (found this option out at TBH4 when playing with a Mario for an hour dealing with 3.0 fireballs and such).

 

[Eisen]

Lucas may not be my "ideal" character anymore, but I still think he represents the most for me. I want to get into Samus and am considering learning more about Bowser after his 3.6 changes, but something about putting the fear of god in someone using a little kid just amuses me.

It's just really hard to get any practice in on this game when pretty much everyone in my state that I can contact has moved on to Smash 4 or hates PM with a passion. Also, doesn't help that I can't set up netplay and I have yet to figure out how to get wifi mode to work.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Just wondering, how viable is Upb (like the ball) for edge guarding characters, or more specifically tethers?

 

[zFrost]

pretty bad

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Oh ok, I'll still try it a bit.

 

[Kipcom]

Just wondering, how viable is Upb (like the ball) for edge guarding characters, or more specifically tethers?

meh

It's pretty bad. Punishing tethers with magnet or an aerial is pretty much always better (or punishing the forced reel)

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

meh

It's pretty bad. Punishing tethers with magnet or an aerial is pretty much always better (or punishing the forced reel)

Ok, I'll see what works. Thanks for the feed back.

 

[D e l t a]

I just grab ledge and force reel in or Bair spike. If I can't grab ledge, it's not worth doing anything except wait for them to get on stage.

 

[trancex]

Lucky find haha

==

Regular tether grab works great as a followup to a Fair, but that's about the only time I grab in the Fox MU unless I know they'll shield after PKF or Nair at low %.

The only time I realistically see a shield grab against Fox, speaking at a mid-level of play or higher of course, is if they mis-space an Upsmash (say they're attempting dash attack upsmash and you fall fast enough to get shield before upsmash), or if they have good spacing on upsmash, but you shield DI towards them and grab immediately after being out of shield stun. Almost every other move of Fox's is safe enough they won't be shield grabbed.

It's honestly not worth it as the high risk / medium-high reward can cost you a guaranteed 20-50% (or a stock) despite Lucas being able to do the same depending on the stage. Fox can live about 10-20% longer than Lucas on average, so 20-30% to Lucas is like 40-50% on Fox. Your best bet on punishing Upsmash OoS is to throw a PKF and force them to shield or run back. Same thing goes for punishing Mario's Dsmash on shield (found this option out at TBH4 when playing with a Mario for an hour dealing with 3.0 fireballs and such).

I was referring to the hypothetical regular grab Lucas, but I did not make that clear. Woops. Still, everything you said was spot on. Getting a grab with Lucas on Fox is so, so tough, but so juicy. Like you said, fairs/nairs are the primary ways to make this happen. A wd-back > DJC fair out of a DD bait can lead to a grab when the Fox chooses to try to come in with nair/shine. Of course this depends on having good spacing; this is critical given the very small disjoint on fair (RIP).

Sweetspot SHFFL/DJC fairs lead into so much in this matchup, but of course Lucas's grabs are so potent against Fox that you always want to get the grab followup if you can.

 

[D e l t a]

IMO the best followup on Fox is dash attack after 30%. It's stupid good and leads to basically anything you want. Around 90% it leads into upsmash which will kill.

Edit: Lucas' dash attack is pretty funny actually. The early hits combo super well and set up for air juggles. The late hit sends opponents at a terribly downward angle with awkward hitstun. It's one of his two moves (the other being Fair) where combo DI (down and away) is actually a thing. Everything else of Lucas is basically DI'd full behind or down and behind Lucas. Just a random thought.

 

[Dr3amSm4sher]

Your best bet on punishing Upsmash OoS is to throw a PKF and force them to shield or run back. Same thing goes for punishing Mario's Dsmash on shield (found this option out at TBH4 when playing with a Mario for an hour dealing with 3.0 fireballs and such).

Yeah you can just wavedash OoS magnet that..... its not actually that hard. Its pretty much a 4 frame window. But upsmash has so much shield stun that you can't even act until you normally react to shielding it. And you can punish its from stupid far... cause magnet disjoint. Actually its about the same for both smash attacks. Mario's dsmash can only be punished if you shield just the first hit. If Mario gets both hits of the dsmash or gets second hit only than punishing it becomes impossible. Always remember that in any case Marth can wavedash OoS grab you can pretty much wavedash mag for free. If marth needs to Dash JC grab to punish you sub in dash JC magnet. Magnet is really stupid. Treat it as if marth's grab, Fox's shine, and falco's shine all had some ******* love child with all 3 hitboxes properties combined into the best possible blend of a move.


The only thing wrong with magnet is has way too much hitlag and acting out of it properly requires some delay and finesse. Also that you can't jump while holding it. But that has its own issues due to the hitlag..... Wow everything just goes back to this hitlag complaint. I would much rather have the shield advantage reduced more than have this hitlag increase. It just makes it feel clunky and semi unreliable as a magnet/shine. People just seem to sometimes get pushed out. Wait, there is a fix for this. Lucas magnet currently doesn't "work" because the first hit has regular hitlag and SDI properties. Since the first hit was actually given knockback you can now just hold down away at vs lucas spaced grounded magnet and, if he doesn't slide enough into you after he releases b, you just make it out sometimes. If this angle was changed from 80° to something like 110° than the first hit would lead into the second unless they SDI up and/or away. (in which case they earned it. Let them have this) Even up and away DI might work vs it. So they might go above it... But they might just fall into the second hit since it would launch them at 92° degrees even with the best "away" DI. Now magnet would work right. Also a slight hitlag reduction anyway would be nice.

All i still want changed is his magnet hitlag/first hit not working, nair as a concept (just give it the auto link angle or less SDI multipliers. Just something so I can use it as a normal move and not have to react to SDI. Literally just give me what zelda has.), fair disjoint/hitbox spacing, Bair horizontal kill sweetspot timing being just 1 frame (why is this a thing????), and his grab having way too much endlag for how far it reaches, Up-b not being able to grab the ledge backwards right after getting to the top.

Also PKFreeze is good how it is now. People don't like playing around wolf laser. Don't make a better wolf laser. Cause that's is what a good PKFreeze feels like. He has such a stellar ground game with dash dances, shorthop aerials and magnets, and wavedashes that freeze should be used as a tool to supplement your neutral. Not overpower it.

BTW little known fact. Lucas's aerial magnet has a different knockback angle (240 rather than 80°) than the grounded one for aerial opponents. Its the reason that SH magnet just kinda works to drag them around in if they are in mid air. And why magnet drag downs work pretty well. Optimal DI (which is to have the first hit launch you as far as possible. Think falco shine combos vs fastfallers) doesn't really exist. Every DI just kinda guides them into you. Down and away DI is pretty much a soft meteor that leads them pulls them into the magnet from below. While Up and in DI makes it hit like a reverse jab.... into the second hit. Yeah the only reason I'm not using this for the first hit is I don't think this angle would let you CC it. Not trying to make Lucas broken. Just more fun.


Welll..... this was a fun waste of time. Never going on smashboards high again. Well might as well not let this post go to waste. Here is a wall of stuff. Have fun reading.