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Squirtle Tactical Discussion

T-block

B2B TST
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Olimar is easy... the way Squirtle approaches is difficult for Olimar to stop. You want to approach from above diagonally so that you really only need to watch for pivot grab and the occasional up-b. RAR short hop > b-air is pretty effective. Once you're in, don't let up. Jab, f-tilt, f-air, u-air, n-air, grab, etc. and keep the pressure on. D-air is also really good when it lands, and puts Olimar in a pretty rough spot.
 

Tesh

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yea but i have trouble getting in at any angle. Aside from my poor follow up game, its hard to get past pivot grabs, upsmash and up b.
 

Steeler

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learn how to perfectly time a jump out of pivot and then bair, it will help a lot. also, water gun is useful if the olimar simply insists on standing in place and spamming grabs/smashes.
 

Supreme Dirt

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No, jab combo doesn`t link from hit1 to hit2. It absolutely sucks, and I'm pretty sure we're disadvantaged on hit. Best thing is DON'T EVER LET SQUIRTLE IDLE. DON'T LET THEM REALIZE YOU'RE FATIGUED. Make them FEAR YOUR USMASH, don't let them know that you're struggling to rack them so that your 70% power USmash can kill. If you would be idling, pivot in place.
 

T-block

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learn how to perfectly time a jump out of pivot and then bair, it will help a lot. also, water gun is useful if the olimar simply insists on standing in place and spamming grabs/smashes.
This.

I think Steeler is talking about rising b-air here, which is also useful. I was talking about short hop and then falling onto them with b-air. If you see a pivot grab incoming, use your double jump. Don't forget about just air dodging into them and jabbing as well. You beat him up close easily.
 

CoonTail

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Hey guys just for future knowledge are there any moves for squirtle that will break/kill the pikmin olimar is attempting to grab with.

I've seen wolf stop grabs with f-smash down b and even jabs I believe so if this is possible can anyone please list these moves off to me!
 

Steeler

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well

i'm guessing that olimar simply grabbed too early in each of those cases. olimar has no grab armor, so you always win trades. down b has invincibility on start up and fsmash has two different hitboxes...

i think the olimar has to mess up, squirtle doesn't have enough frame advantage on anything
 

Geenareeno

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well

i'm guessing that olimar simply grabbed too early in each of those cases. olimar has no grab armor, so you always win trades. down b has invincibility on start up and fsmash has two different hitboxes...

i think the olimar has to mess up, squirtle doesn't have enough frame advantage on anything
Invincibility or super armor?
 

T-block

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Grab Armor - The super armor that occurs during the single frame when a grab connects. The grabber receives damage but does not receive knockback.
*Pikmin have grab armor, but Olimar does not
 

TheReflexWonder

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I know we were talking about this a long time ago, but I think it's worth researching some more for new opportunities...

Uncharged Water Gun.



It has roughly the same range as (if not slightly greater than) Snake's F-Tilt1--



Part of the F-Tilt's seemingly ridiculous range comes from the fact that the main hitbox doesn't overlap his body at all. The same can be said about uncharged Water Gun.

It doesn't deal much damage, but, while slower, it still creates a constantly-hitting wall, both in front of and above (diagonally-up, anyway). I think we should check the frame data for it, since Shaya only checked the numbers for charged Water Gun. That said, if it ends on the same frame that charged Water Gun does, this should be exceptionally safe in most situations. It suggests that there are only ten frames of cooldown between the final hit and when the animation ends, which is AWESOME.

Since it hits multiple times and has little knockback/hitstun, you should aim to hit with the edge of it so you don't aren't the victim of SDI -> punish. If you do that, though, outside of, like, Wolf F-Smash, I don't see how most characters can punish the smart use of this attack. It becomes even better when used in the air. If an opponent isn't fast enough to force you to need to B-Reverse, you can simply reset the situation by landing with Water Gun facing the opponent, as he must now worry about your moving toward him with it, too. It could be used in tandem with a B-Reverse in mid-air to prevent and opponent from punishing your landing, since Squirtle maintains aerial mobility while using Water Gun. That increases our ability to disrupt juggles and land on the ground safely by a great deal.

Also, I wonder if this beats Mach Tornado. Also-also, this may open up a great deal of potential in Squirtle's camp and running-away game.
 

CoonTail

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Ugh uncharged watergun how I hate thee, but Luis yet again never seeming to stop finding new purposes for old moves. Even though I do like to just clink Snake's f-tilt with Squirt's jab 1 this is a real interesting option even though this is just another way for a grenade to blow up in our little turtles face *sigh*

It would be pretty kool if the cooldown on uncharged watergun was as short as charged because then being punished is not as serious an option. My big worry here is the spacing because as Luis said, you're either gonna space correctly or face the consequence of SDI-> Punish ugh.......
 

TheReflexWonder

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Hey, remember True Hydroplaning?

True Hydroplane
Description- As Squirtle comes out of his pivot, he stands up and slides the length of a hydroplane. He is in his standing animation while he slides, so he can do any move.
How to perform- Perform a shellshift, and just before you come out of your pivot, buffer a pivot by hitting back on the analog stick one more time. Timing is the important factor here - if you input the last direction too quickly you won't get much of a slide, and if you input it too late you'll simply initiate a dash backwards.​
The problem with doing it reliably for me has always been how the pivot must be achieved, which is to say, by tapping backward on the Control Stick just slightly enough for your character to turn around, rather than to dash backward.

I don't have a Wii in my house to test this right now, but I was thinking--Could this be achieved by changing the inputs? What if, in shellshifting to the right, you slide from right to up-left in a 135-degree slide? This would require Tap Jump to be off, but I imagine something similar to that could produce the same results without having to slightly tilt the Control stick at the right time.

It's probably be more like right to up-up-left (as in, a 120-degree slide), and it would probably have to be done very quickly, but if this works, it would be significantly easier to manage, I think. Someone should test this for me; if it doesn't happen, I'll try to do so when I can.
 

T-block

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You can tap the control stick all the way, Reflex. It's just all about the timing, and allowing the control stick to return to neutral as quickly as possible. Shellshift, then flick the analog stick in the other direction. If you get the timing right, you'll achieve the true hydroplane.

Similar to a true pivot the way you tap and let it return quickly in order to buffer the pivot, if you know how to do that.
 

T-block

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It's a similar idea... the focus is to allow the control stick to return to neutral as quickly as possible.

True pivot jab is just Left Right Neutral A as quickly as possible.
 

Aposl

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I use charging watergun while the opponent is on the ledge as a bait sometimes to power shiled they're attack and sometimes mix in uncharged version, same fro when im recovering, instead of having a fully charged watergun to knock the opponent back I use it to go through him if he approaches.
 

CoonTail

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I have been messing around with true pivots T-block and they are really good, true pivot rocksmash against peach is really helpful. I was playing Vinnie last night and man that changes the face of that matchup.

Luis T-block is dead on I struggled with true hydroplaning for a minutes but you just have to get used to the speed and timing along with really trying to make sure that control stick returns to neutral as fast as possible, which is why I always check my control sticks stiffness. If I place my finger on top of my control stick and move it with a light enough touch so that the game would not register any movement, but the control stick has give I consider it a terrible controller because it makes hydroplaning and true hydroplaning a real big obstacle.

Lastly guys I been using this A LOT lately and thats squirtle's f-throw -> f-air at 0%. It does 23% which is as much as marth's f-throw x1 to tipper f-smash and this beats out shuttleloop so it is a true combo.
Start using this MOAR!!!
 

T-block

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I really should use Water Gun more as a defensive option. How often do you find yourself getting hit out of uncharged Water Gun, Aposl?

You don't need to true pivot side-B moves, IC =P You can just dash and input the other direction to turn around. True pivot is for jabs, tilts, smashes, and I believe neutral-b. I've found pivot jabs to only be marginally useful... I really only do them to show off, since people think they're hard to do or something haha. I could see pivot tilts being really good for Squirtle and Charizard, but pivot f-tilt is just so goddamn hard to do that I don't bother. Pivot d-tilt might be good for Ivysaur too... should look into that =x

Yeah, f-throw to f-air is delicious. It's my default option at low percents.
 

Aposl

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I only find myself hit out of light water gun against logic sometimes,I am conservative with dedicating with it when I use though, sometimes I back away even with the spray version because im not that much confident with the option and the hit box is huge. Also the empty hydroplane thingy is useful if you are using crawl dash because then it becomes a mix up out of turn around, but dash out of turn around is good as well but adds another trip opportunity so dont mess with that at high%. I have been working on some crazy squirtle dribble options with banana. Im going to make my first vid on squirtle with banana. Also squirtle with turnip is hilarious because you can recatch the turnip so its like wave dashing lol.
 

T-block

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You never got to watch me against a Diddy, did you? D= I'm curious as to what you'll come up with... I'm of the opinion that you need to play Diddy at a decent level before you realize all the things Squirtle can actually do with bananas.
 

Aposl

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T -Block hit me up on aim and we can talk more and start coming up with some ideas for guides to PT if you want, just pm me for my aim
 

CoonTail

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T-Block I did not know you couldn't true pivot b-moves but either way pivot RS rapedd!! And I'm glad to hear f-throw f-air is your combo of choice at low percents, funny thing is that on the characters we get f-throw -> f-throw on at 0%(such as fox falco snake) we can tack the f-air on also!

I have to say though squirtle with Banana's turnips and bombs yield the most ridiculous results. T you are right in really needing to play and understand the diddy matchup to get the most out of bananas, but man the things you can do with the is ridiculous. Turnips you can glide toss and recatch and same goes with bombs on shields so I love it.

Also since Aposl talked about tripping I wanted to bring this up because I'm sure everyone knows it but it should be restated, you can't trip while hydroplanning unless hit with some that has the ability to cause tripping. This is another main reason why I use hydroplaning and reverse shifting so much because even though you have to run to start, it minimizes tripping once your sliding which is not major but a pretty solid attribute to hydroplaning. Since I have been working more on squirtle's movement I'm finding that hydroplane shielding is really legit since it works as a mindgame. Hydroplane shield a few times to get the opponents mindset set on hydroplane shield then mix up with reverse shift/hydroplane jab/grab. It's working real well for me in the MK matchup :)
 

TheReflexWonder

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As an aside, Shuttle Loop doesn't have invincibility until Frame 5, and it doesn't have invincibility at all in mid-air. Try it against Marth.
 

T-block

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Lastly guys I been using this A LOT lately and thats squirtle's f-throw -> f-air at 0%. It does 23% which is as much as marth's f-throw x1 to tipper f-smash and this beats out shuttleloop so it is a true combo.
Start using this MOAR!!!
This is what he's referring to. If it works on Marth you can call it a true combo because Marth's up-b is invincible Frame 1, whereas MK's Shuttle Loop doesn't have invincibility in the air.
 

crynts

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@Reflex

There is another way to true hydroplane. Just hold an attack button while you do a hydrojab (it can be inputted while you are shellshifting, I set Z to attack). If you let the analog stick return to neutral right before squirtle comes out of its shell you do a true hydroplane. If it is held, squirtle pivots while doing a true hydroplane.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I don't have much time, so I'll be brief.

Practice the Hydrograb, True Hydroplaning, different timings of them via shellstalling, and True Pivoting from a dash into F-Tilt and/or Jab.

Get used to it.

Do it for a majority of your matches.
 

crynts

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Haha, thanks for the advice, but my post was just a response to this

The earlier post was just saying you can do also do a true hydroplane by holding an attack input while hydrojabbing. The timing is much more forgiving.
 

TheReflexWonder

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After messing around with it, I can safely say that the Hydrojab isn't useful. The hitbox on the jab doesn't last for long, so most of the slide is just empty animation, and you can get about as useful a slide with True Hydroplaning.

Letting go of the Control Stick after a shellshift basically gives you a decent slide while in neutral animation, sort of like a mini-True Hydroplane. Call me stupid, but I didn't realize that that's why people would repeatedly shellshift in place.

That said, just jabbing at the end of a shellshift looks like it's an awesome move. It takes little practice to get used to the timing, you can get a decent slide before you start jabbing (which pretty much stops moving after the hitbox is out) and, depending on the timing of your jab, you can change up how far your slide goes, which makes it unpredictable by itself, given that you can control the spacing quite well.

This is made really great due to the fact that the Hydrograb hitbox covers all the distances in which a jab out of a shellshift would hit people, as well as puts Squirtle out of range of retaliation if the grab misses, due to the Hydrograb's long slide. If they spotdodge or roll toward your starting position, they're far away from you. If they roll backward, you get to punish, unless it's, like, Lucario, but, his moves are so slow otherwise that you won't get punished for it.

On top of that, either option can be made unpredictable through shellstalling, with both commands being really easy to do consistently, and both benefiting a great deal from it. People with awesome Up-B moves and Up-Smashes out-of-shield will be reluctant to use them to get around this if you start shellstalling. It is a super-safe bait, and it makes your actual attacks virtually impossible to read.

The jab is mostly to stuff people who are trying really hard to approach and to keep people out of your personal space. It also serves as a bait, making people try to shield the jab, only to get grabbed. The Hydrograb is what would be dealing damage, as it sets up for juggles and is a fantastic option that negates the usefulness of shields against Squirtle's many pokes. If your opponent wants to try to attack you before your shellshift is over, you can always jump out halfway through or simply shield at the end of the shellshift.

Given Squirtle's amazing walk speed and the versatility of his shellshifting, it's easy to put yourself into position for this at any given moment. The Hydrograb has enough distance on it to make it a potentially offensive tactic, and you do move forward a little overall after a jab. However, this seems REALLY useful defensively, and gives Squirtle a great boost in camping. I think we should analyze this stuff and see what distance from the opponent would give us the most control.

If Squirtle is going to keep the lead, it looks like this is the way to go. Perhaps this is the ticket to timing people out with PT.
 

crynts

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wow, thanks, but slow down here. I was not asking for info on using the hydrograb or jab. My post was explaining another way to input a true hydroplane. Read it again. :p

Thanks anyways lol.

:phone:
 
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