Squirtle Tactical Discussion

[TheReflexWonder]

Luis I love how everytime we see you you manage to spit out so much experimental stuff I can't even keep up .

This is a really interesting find and I think sourspot n-air is the better option since n-air autocancels. Squirtle's platform cancel is deffinitly the hardest out of the 3 though because the tier of platform cancels from easiest to hardest for PT is Zard, Ivy, Squirtle.

Do you think on characters that we can get early f-throw chains on we can manage to sneak in a footstool to start this also?

I couldn't say, but it's definitely worth looking into. I'll mess around with it when I can.

Also, this on Rainbow Cruise's flat portion after the pendulum should net us a free KO at low percents via jab lock to the left. Get hype.

 

[T-block]

CT, where are you getting the info on platform cancelling? What makes Squirtle's harder than the others?

You can platform cancel on Rainbow Cruise? o.o

 

[CoonTail]

I am not getting info from anywhere I have tried out a lot of the different methods to platform cancel.

Holding down then letting go as you pass through
Double tapping down as you pass through
C-sticking down as you pass through

The easiest method is holding down since it is one of the options that doesn't leave you open for punishment due to a misclick, but squirtle is the lightest and light characters are just harder to platform cancel with for me.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

RC is constantly moving.

You can't PC with multiple jump characters except on the first jump.
Squirtle is easiest imo

 

[T-block]

I was just wondering whether there was an actual frame data reason for it. Maybe Squirtle moves faster vertically when he's jumping, making the window smaller, or something. I don't know enough of platform cancelling mechanics.

If it's just in your opinion that Squirtle's is harder, you should say so x.x

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

So I have been fooling around with holding certain directions when jumping from the edge and doing actions such as Dair or Airdodge onto the platfroms on battlefield in a melee-esqe style much like fox on yoshi island in melee wavelanding straight from jumping off the ledge on the platform.

 

[Geenareeno]

Hows that goin for ya?

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

It is really cool.

Like if you dair and hold down and sideways your dair ends on the platform or if you fair like that you do a squirtle slide (kinda like on yoshi's pipes) I air dodged once in a similar fashion but have not replicated it (that was on wifi)

Fast ways to get to certain spots on the level are always neato.


BF is my favorite level.

 

[Buuda]

When you Up-B, you can turn yourself in the opposite direction of where you're facing by holding the opposite direction during the first few frames.

While that in itself is no great revelation, I found out that holding back while doing Up-B forward (as in, after holding back won't turn you around) makes you go almost straight up, which gives you more vertical distance. This also works for Charizard. PT's recovery just got a tiny bit better.

No trying to troll, but I gotta say....
I've known that since the first time I used PT, I thought everyone knew. XD

On that note, hi again, everyone! I know it's been awhile. Is there anything incredibly crucial and new I should know?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

MK is banned now.

 

[CoonTail]

^ Supreme replaced phiddlesticks as our resident troll.

But when did this happen Supreme I live under a rock in LI.

 

[Steeler]

But you when did this happen Supreme I live under a rock in LI.

this made me think of rock smashing something and a wild coony comin' out to battle

 

[CoonTail]

^ hahahha Steeler I want this as my siggy immediately because I totally got the imagery once I saw this LOL

Charizard used rocksmash

A WILD COONTAIL APPEARED!!

 

[MaTA]

So I was playing Vicegrip this past weekend (Ness) player. I was curious about the grab release with squirtle. Not sure if its about buffering or timing but about 6/10 grab releases I did on him I didn't move at all. It was like DDD on DK. right after the pummel he popped out and it seemed like I had a little extra long grab and pulled him back in without moving.

I know he can move and grab but if this is a possible infinite without moving it means problems for Ness.

 

[Fuujin]

So I was playing Vicegrip this past weekend (Ness) player. I was curious about the grab release with squirtle. Not sure if its about buffering or timing but about 6/10 grab releases I did on him I didn't move at all. It was like DDD on DK. right after the pummel he popped out and it seemed like I had a little extra long grab and pulled him back in without moving.

I know he can move and grab but if this is a possible infinite without moving it means problems for Ness.

But Pokeman Trainer is bad Mata...

 

[CoonTail]

^ok then with unhelpful random posts.....ANYWAY

MaTA I have noticed this before that sometimes you can jus regrab immediately without having to dash grab but other times you have to dash grab.

I bet luis knows why this happens, so let's hope for a namesearch REFLEX!!!!!

 

[MaTA]

Pretty sure its buffering and good timing. What else would it be.

 

[T-block]

Umm...welcome to '09 guys? o.o

If Ness breaks at maximum distance, standing regrab will barely fall short. However, if you hold forward as you pummel so that you walk forward ever so slightly before inputting the regrab, you can regrab Ness 100% of the time.

It's not technically infinite because you have to move forward slightly so you'll run out of stage eventually, but it's effectively a stock unless they're already near the edge and at low percents when you grab them.

Charizard can do the same, and he doesn't have to walk. So once you grab Ness, you can literally just hold shield and mash A to continuously regrab.

Frame data stuff:
Squirtle's break from grab animation takes 30 frames. His standing grab connects on frame 6.
Ness's grab break animation takes 40 frames.

It's not really about grabbing Ness before he can slide too far. If you weren't walking forward, then what you were seeing was Ness not breaking at the farthest distance.

 

[CoonTail]

Thank you T because this was never in my knowledge base until now so I would imagine this info has not been present on our boards.

 

[StarGalaxy777]

Is Hydroplane U-smash a good thing to use? Like to use it at all because my friend says Im too gimicky with it


Overusing it I suppose he meant by it?

 

[MaTA]

I think I use it the most to travel across the stage to reach the opponent faster. Its also used well against MKs who tornado into you and you shield and decide to move away thinking they're too far and you can usually catch them with an usmash.

Its pretty useful in team matches if someone is getting grabbed you slid faster past the person to hit them with the back pump. Other than that I think its super readable. You can maybe catch a spot dodge while someone is landing once in a blue moon.

 

[StarGalaxy777]

I think I use it the most to travel across the stage to reach the opponent faster. Its also used well against MKs who tornado into you and you shield and decide to move away thinking they're too far and you can usually catch them with an usmash.

Its pretty useful in team matches if someone is getting grabbed you slid faster past the person to hit them with the back pump. Other than that I think its super readable. You can maybe catch a spot dodge while someone is landing once in a blue moon.

So I should be using it more as a mobility move more so than a kill move?

 

[MaTA]

Well no, you should still use it as a kill move if the time is right. But its helpful getting across stage faster if someones off the ledge...

example... the other day i was playing a falco. We were on the right side of FD.. I fair'd him all the way tot he left side (he was at high percent) off the left side of the stage. I landed on stage and hydroplaned all the way to the other side and had enough time to water gun his illusion.

 

[Steeler]

example... the other day i was playing a falco. We were on the right side of FD.. I fair'd him all the way tot he left side (he was at high percent) off the left side of the stage. I landed on stage and hydroplaned all the way to the other side and had enough time to water gun his illusion.

that's hella cute mata

 

[CoonTail]

Yea I gotta say I play against a lot of snake and while we don't have the unbelieveably awesome hitbox that his DACUS has, the applications for it our forward hydroplane is deffinitly similar to his DACUS' applications.

 

[StarGalaxy777]

Well no, you should still use it as a kill move if the time is right. But its helpful getting across stage faster if someones off the ledge...

example... the other day i was playing a falco. We were on the right side of FD.. I fair'd him all the way tot he left side (he was at high percent) off the left side of the stage. I landed on stage and hydroplaned all the way to the other side and had enough time to water gun his illusion.

Ah so keep ot fresh and dont overuse it?

 

[CoonTail]

Ah so keep ot fresh and dont overuse it?

Keeping it fresh shouldn't be hard as long as your properly applying it.

As Mata said it can be used for movement otherwise I use it to chase opponents I knocked to the other side of the stage as chase method. The real opportunities arise when you have your opponent off balance and you are maintaining stage control.

 

[MaTA]

It can be also used to when people are off the edge and you buffer it. You dacus and pretty much fly off the edge catching them off guard.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

It can be also used to when people are off the edge and you buffer it. You dacus and pretty much fly off the edge catching them off guard.

h u h ?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think he means where you DACUS to the edge and U-Smash someone's shield, making you fall off the stage.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I think he means where you DACUS to the edge and U-Smash someone's shield, making you fall off the stage.

oohhhh.


I buffer a bair in that situation now. (hoping to stage spike =) )

 

[CoonTail]

So I was just sitting at my boys house and turned on the wii for about 15 min to practice hydroplaning, hydro tossing, and just some general movement tricks with squirtle.

Once I started hydro-tossing with squirtle I messed around with U-tilt out of hydro-toss and stumbled upon something that seems old but was too legit after I tested it.

Squirtle seems like he has the ability to U-tilt betwen 2-5 times based on character weight -> footstool -> Fastfall n-air sour spot -> jab lock.

This seems so old but the more I have been practicing it the better it seems. Now I am sure we have to full hop, but the hardest part is fastfalling the n-air without using D-air.

Does anyone else have any recollection of this because I thought this is deffinitely a serious option for squirtle especially against characters like snake or D3 basically characters that require really high KO %'s. Also this gets even easier to do with fatigue and they cannot DI as far from each hit of the jab lock DUE TO FATIGUE!

 

[T-block]

It was discussed briefly for Squirtle back when saviors was hyping up his Saltus combo (which turned out to be not legit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUhS8RQrOU4). The new thing nowadays seems to be using a platform cancel on Smashville's platform (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdbXHh9fRuQ), which fixes the problem that the b-air doesn't hit fast enough for them to be unable to buffer a roll to escape.

Even without Smashville's platform, Squirtle may be able to do it better than Sheik if his footstool jump is lower (Sheik does fall faster though...). Even so, there are a couple of problems with your proposed uses... Sourspot n-air/b-air (I think b-air will lock up to higher percents, so it is probably the better choice, but I'm not 100% sure on that) will stop locking at a much lower percent than Sheik's b-air does, so it will only work at really low percents. You're not going to be able to use it to set up for a KO because u-tilt is going to send them too high to lead into a footstool at higher percents. This is probably most devastating against characters who are particularly susceptible to hydrograb gimps, as you can jab lock to the edge of the stage and get a guaranteed hydrograb.

Also, fatigue doesn't affect your SDI multiplier, so they'll still be able to SDI each jab just as far =P

 

[Seagull Joe]

Why don't s use more hydroplane and shellshifting? It's not even hard to do.

Walk away from an edge opponent is on>Fly with a shellshift at him unexpectedly.

 

[CoonTail]

Why don't s use more hydroplane and shellshifting? It's not even hard to do.

Walk away from an edge opponent is on>Fly with a shellshift at him unexpectedly.

I agree that more people need to use it Seagull but "Walk away from an edge opponent is on>Fly with a shellshift at him unexpectedly." not only is to vague but forces you to commit to options.

If you actually hydroplane to an edge you have the ability to hydroplane -> Stand/Shield/attack/Grab. Because of the speed squirtle moves at while hydroplaning it makes a hydroplane a commitment. Hydroplaning gets stuffed and is predicted a large amount which is why some don't do it, some find it gimmicky, and mostly people just haven't mastered it.

I personally like to reverse shift at the edge so I can bait options because the other player wants to punish my hydroplane and doesn't know reverse shifts look just like hydroplanes at the start. Reverse shifts are what players need to use more of, it's like it doesn't exist.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Why don't s use more hydroplane and shellshifting? It's not even hard to do.

Walk away from an edge opponent is on>Fly with a shellshift at him unexpectedly.

I actually do this all the time now, it is very strong. You can actually not just shellshift but if you True hydroplane you can do any action will weaving back and forth from the edge.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Reverse shifts are what players need to use more of, it's like it doesn't exist.

I want to know what you mean by reverse shift. I am pretty sure I call it somthing else.

 

[CoonTail]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J0nuc-FtwM

Go to 0:49

Funny enough I looked through our squirtle AT thread and this ISN'T listed........and I never see any PTs do this in replays.....

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I do that a lot and I know that all the old school PTs know about it. I think that Kith?/Mata? do that as well. Maybe its kith.


I really like it because it feels a lot like a wavedash backwards which is a really safe spacing option in melee.


Squirtle still has so much untapped potential. Anybody remeber Yourstuffstank? I remember when his Squirtle vids came out, granted when we played in real life he was the best player, but his style with Squirtle literally changed the game and made everyone goo "WOOOOOOOOH!"

 

[CoonTail]

I do that a lot and I know that all the old school PTs know about it. I think that Kith?/Mata? do that as well. Maybe its kith.

Kith was deff a big user of it, but I don't know who else really used it. I remember that once I saw this I took a lot of time to learn how to incorperate it into my playstyle.

I really like it because it feels a lot like a wavedash backwards which is a really safe spacing option in melee.

YES THAT IS EXACTLY MY POINT, I push the use of this so much because of being an ex Melee player. When you see a spacing option SO similar to a backwards wavedash it's way to safe of an option to not use more of.


EDIT: So now I have a question......is there any reason why the reverse shift is not listed in the AT Thread?

Squirtle still has so much untapped potential. Anybody remeber Yourstuffstank? I remember when his Squirtle vids came out, granted when we played in real life he was the best player, but his style with Squirtle literally changed the game and made everyone goo "WOOOOOOOOH!"

I deff remember that miles, which brings back memories of Pants using N-air->N-air with Ivy and it having the same effect on everyone.