Starcraft Discussion

[Alphicans]

No, but I saw him lose with them.

 

[unknownPresence]

XD lol so did I, i was hoping you didnt.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

hmm I guess i do lose this arguement in a 1v1 match, but in a 2v2 i usually do this as terran when my i dont have a terran opponent. lets say they both 4pool or even both 9 pool, if they double rush you ur partner will be able to do a lot of damage to them but they will most likely survive leaving the defendant crippled.

But I admit that in a 1v1 u would be bttr off building a rax at 10 or 11, but i do believe that if zerg were to kill off 1 or 2 rines and 2 scv's then zerg would be ahead.

Also a 4pool done unsuccessfully is generally a loss, but this would also depend on the map. I saw a match where july attempted a 4 pool and didnt kill his opponent (I believe it was rush hour, not sure though), but he managed to get a sunk and two lings up by the time his opponent tried to counter with some zealots due to the spacing of the bases. Of course you would need to be at a pro level to attack and manage your resources as effectively as this, but i dont neccessarily think that an unsuccessful 4pool rush is a loss.

Hate to bring up old arguments too, but did any1 c boxers win with valks (hehe)

You bring up the idea of a double zerg 4 or 6pool rush in a 2v2. While it may depend on the map some, usually both rushing zergs are scouted early enough that it won't work. If there is a map with corner locations and it is 2 zerg vs. 1 zerg and 1 variable then they could theoretically rush the zerg before the zerg would get a chance to defend themselves and try to win the game that way. This has a chance to work, but I still think results would vay depending on opponent's sunk timing (assuming they 9pool). If they overlord then 9pool it might be impossible to defend, not sure.

As for July, I'm not sure who his opponent was, but assuming it was a pro then I would have to say his 4pool was successful if he was to win with it! I think generally an unsuccessful 4pool would be one in which you either don't win or don't damage your opponent's economy significantly. Anyways that's pretty irrelevant, just semantics.

 

[unknownPresence]

I was having an argument with a friend today and i thought i would mention it here.

I say starcraft requires a fair amount of natural skill, but my friend believes the first 2-5 minutes is just memorizing build orders, and the rest just requires practice of playing fast. I argue that even if one were to attain a high apm, one would require natural skill to have the apm of pros such as boxer,july, flash, jaedong, bisu, etc. and that natural skill is also required to know what to do at certain times even if you were to have a high apm.

 

[pockyD]

blah blah blah tech skill vs mind games

except there's a cap on how high your tech skill can get; after a certain point, apms are just empty apms (very few people reach this point consistently of course)

anyways, if they believe that, then there's no real arguing with them, because that's simply something they have to experience for themselves... but knowing timings, finding windows/angles for attack, judging situations in a split second to avoid losing excessive units, etc. are all things that aren't tied to apm that are very very important to success

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

I was having an argument with a friend today and i thought i would mention it here.

I say starcraft requires a fair amount of natural skill, but my friend believes the first 2-5 minutes is just memorizing build orders, and the rest just requires practice of playing fast. I argue that even if one were to attain a high apm, one would require natural skill to have the apm of pros such as boxer,july, flash, jaedong, bisu, etc. and that natural skill is also required to know what to do at certain times even if you were to have a high apm.

I'm sure "natural" skill is involved with many things. However, it should be recognized that perhaps it is more of a continuum than an "on or off" scenario. I think there are three factors for a starcraft player...

I. Knowledgability - Comes through studying the game and experience.

II. Physical Capabilities - How well one can multitask, micro, the precision of one's actions.

III. Game Evaluation - As much as I don't like it, to be a great player requires that you go beyond the objective point of view of the game. You have to take into consideration your opponent and play "the mind game." This breaks down into two parts...
A. Your Pressure - The pressure you put on your opponent. Pressure on opponent's forces them to either lose or respond in some manner. There are 3 major pressures and 3 minor pressures that I have came up with...
1) Your Pressure
a) Major Pressures
i. Economical Pressure - Pressure put on your opponent by means of improving your economy. For example, say you were to expand twice in the very beginning of the game using protoss against terran. This forces terran to respond to your economical pressure. If they don't then eventually they will be far behind. In this case the response will probably be some sort of marine/bunker/scv rush.
ii. Work Force Pressure - Pressure put on your opponent by means of the strength of your army. For example, if protoss double gates against a zerg player then it forces them to somehow deal with the posing threat. This could be done with say lurkers, a technological response, or sunken colonies, etc. The fact that you built 2gateways slows down the zerg. OF course there are two sides to the story, but for the sake of simplicity we are only considering your opponent.
iii. Technologcal Pressure - This is pressure put on your opponent by means of improving your technology. For example, a dark templar rush against terran forces terran to get (most likely) turrets. A corsair rush against zerg forces zerg to get a spore colony, hydralisks, or mutalisks/scourage. Going lurkers as a zerg player forces a protoss to get observers.
b) Minor Pressures
i) Mobility Pressure - Mobility pressure coincides with technological pressure often times but has many scenarios in which only it applies. Mobility pressure forces your opponent to come up with a response to your multiple potential and real threats. For example, a terran might have vultures raiding around against a protoss in the mid-game. This forces protoss to put a couple cannons by his expansions so they are not immediate targets. Another example could be mutalisks against terran which force terran to build turrets because terran cannot have his marines and medics defending at all places and also moving forward with plans of their own.
ii) Sabotage Pressure - You put sabotage pressure on a player by destroying their buildings and/or workers or threatening to do so. You may be thinking, so mutalisks put technological, mobility, and sabotage pressure on a player? Yes, that is right. Mobility, technology, and sabotage often go hand in hand as well as many other combinations. You may even think that mobility pressure and sabotage pressure are the same thing, but consider a zerg vs. terran game where zerg gets two more expansions at opposite ends of the map. This is an example of mobility pressure on terran since now they have a hard time destroying both bases (so your economic pressure will be more successful most likely).
iii) Uncertainty Pressure - This is often a main theme in mirror matches such as Protoss vs. Protoss. If on protoss player is going dark templars and the other protoss player doesn't know whether he is going to face dark templars or not, then he must either come up with a response in case either scenario occurs or take a "risk," which is a very important thing to be good at despite the negative connotation.

2) Your Reaction - This is simply how you respond to your opponent's pressures. Many progamers are bad at this compared to the other parts of being a good player. When you figure out your opponent is doing some sort of crazy new strategies, like "pulling off a boxer," then you better come up with a plan to thwart their efforts and win. Theoretically it is possible to win the game by simply being a "reactive" player and improving yourself more than your opponent can bring you down, but to do so is very difficult. Most games involve both reaction and proaction.

blah blah blah tech skill vs mind games

except there's a cap on how high your tech skill can get; after a certain point, apms are just empty apms (very few people reach this point consistently of course)

anyways, if they believe that, then there's no real arguing with them, because that's simply something they have to experience for themselves... but knowing timings, finding windows/angles for attack, judging situations in a split second to avoid losing excessive units, etc. are all things that aren't tied to apm that are very very important to success

Yes, it is true that APM is overrated. I know this firsthand since I used to beat many good players with merely 80apm. While many players say 80 apm isn't enough at all, it really is if you know how to use it. Currently I range from 120-180 apm, depending on mostly how demanding the scenario is. More important for protoss in my opinion is the precision of your actions and your ability to come up with winning moves and strategies.

 

[pockyD]

don't need apm for protoss

1a2a3a

 

[Alphicans]

It's true apm =/= skill. Although when a 200 apm is used at it's maximum potential it's obviously going to be more effective then a 120 apm.

Protoss not needing as much apm is also true, and yes precision is also more important. Terran, however, needs to be speedy mother ****ers... Pushing vs protoss, and attacking a zerg is super hard to do, and it requires a mad amount of dexterity. Currently I average an apm of 160-200ish apm, and I still can't beat Ace on a consistent basis (meaning hardly every [although I went 2-0 on him the other day on bluestorm ]). Of course terran needs more then just speed, I am just pointing out obviouses, that are just cool to know I guess.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

don't need apm for protoss

1a2a3a

Yeah, you go on believing that. It's more like...

88 *click* z *click* z *click* z *click* z *click* t *click* t
bc bc bc
1 (click away) 2 (click away) 3 (click away) 4 (click away) 5 (click away)
bp bp bp
0pp9pp
1a2a3a4a5a
*click* t *click* t *click* t
Grab new group of units, *hotkey to 6
88 *click* z *click* z *click* z ....
1a2a3a4a5a6a
*click* z *click* z *click* t *click* t
bg bg bg bp p bp bp
0pp 9pp

...it gets hectic, depends on strategy also.

It's true apm =/= skill. Although when a 200 apm is used at it's maximum potential it's obviously going to be more effective then a 120 apm.

Protoss not needing as much apm is also true, and yes precision is also more important. Terran, however, needs to be speedy mother ****ers... Pushing vs protoss, and attacking a zerg is super hard to do, and it requires a mad amount of dexterity. Currently I average an apm of 160-200ish apm, and I still can't beat Ace on a consistent basis (meaning hardly every [although I went 2-0 on him the other day on bluestorm ]). Of course terran needs more then just speed, I am just pointing out obviouses, that are just cool to know I guess.

Alphicans you beat me once fair in square, but you know I was going to win the second game.

 

[unknownPresence]

(b4 i say anything let me say Im speaking on part of my friend who believes otherwise not myself)

Ace ur 3 points, 1 and 3 are the same and all of them will be ez to comprehend after a couple of matches with high lvl players. The only "natural skill" involved is how quickly u understand the game, and the win will fall under the person who knows what he doing more.

(this is me talking)
Alpha- u mentioned a 200 apm used at its max beating a 120, i think thats obvious, but my idea that i was trying to portray was the opposite, that a 120 used at its max will beat a 200 who is not using that every actioan for something important (excluding spam), like checking units that arent under attack or getting units in groups to where u could just hold left click.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

(b4 i say anything let me say Im speaking on part of my friend who believes otherwise not myself)

Ace ur 3 points, 1 and 3 are the same and all of them will be ez to comprehend after a couple of matches with high lvl players. The only "natural skill" involved is how quickly u understand the game, and the win will fall under the person who knows what he doing more.

Hi unknown Presence's friend. #1 was about knowledge of build orders and strategies, #3 was more about analysis and evaluation.

(this is me talking)
Alpha- u mentioned a 200 apm used at its max beating a 120, i think thats obvious, but my idea that i was trying to portray was the opposite, that a 120 used at its max will beat a 200 who is not using that every actioan for something important (excluding spam), like checking units that arent under attack or getting units in groups to where u could just hold left click.

Yes, this is correct.

 

[pockyD]

Yeah, you go on believing that.

yes there's no chance that i was joking

i think your arrogance is making you incredibly dense

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

yes there's no chance that i was joking

i think your arrogance is making you incredibly dense

If you were joking that's fine. I'm not very good at picking up sarcasm over the net, and even if I did, I usually assume it isn't sarcasm because I like to be very straight forward. Now I know anyways, thank you.

As for the arrogance bit, I don't know where you got that from. I am a trainer and I try to help people. Maybe that comes across as arrogant, but my intentions are relativistically noble. Beginners and strugglers are my favorite players and I stand up for them whenever I can, especially if I see someone bad mannering them. My policy with bad mannering is that if they bad manner me they get banned, squelched, and/or receive no game. If they, however, bad manner another player I will play them and 98% of the time beat them. There was one guy that was like 30-0 on iccup that I tried to beat, came close but didn't make it in the end. Anyways then I give them a chance to take the good manner path, in which I'll become their friend, or I'll try to beat them down as low as I can if they continue to be an *** hole to new players.

 

[unknownPresence]

how did that work out?

(not me) #1 is more memorization, and #3 what do u mean by analysis

(me) I dont think any1 on this thread is arrogant, some points are just misunderstood, and most of us have a firm belief on what we think on the game which cause us to seem arrogant.

Does any1 know the name of the thourny being held in sc right now- the one with boxer's lost against the unknown zerg plyr who expected the valk build, and bisu and flash are still in it?

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

(not me) #1 is more memorization, and #3 what do u mean by analysis

I assume you are the friend again. First I should apologize since I was a little vague in my original post, your comment was very appropriate. I only sought to clarify since in my mind there was a distinction, just I didn't make that distinction clear.

Analysis is a simple concept. All it is is taking something big, breaking it down into pieces, and understanding/applying those pieces. In this case I break the strategy of Starcraft down into 6 components and try to understand/apply those components to playing the game. Of course, as you might think, there surely are other ways you could break it down. This was just the way I break the game down and understand it. I'll note that while I like the idea of thinking in terms of pressures, I don't only think in terms of pressures. Most of the time I do comparisons and contrasts, which is more of a synthesis approach to the game and allows you to evaluate strategies much faster (assuming you have the appropriate knowledge.)

(me) I dont think any1 on this thread is arrogant, some points are just misunderstood, and most of us have a firm belief on what we think on the game which cause us to seem arrogant.

Does any1 know the name of the thourny being held in sc right now- the one with boxer's lost against the unknown zerg plyr who expected the valk build, and bisu and flash are still in it?

Yes.
It is...
Averatec Intel Classic

And you can find the videos with english commentary here...
http://www.gomtv.net/classic/vod/

The commentator is Tasteless who both understands the game extremely well and is a very entertaining commentator. That, combined with the excellent games, and you're sure to have lots of fun. Enjoy.


[Note to No One]
I just wanted to say one useful thing you could use my pressure nonsense for. While it's more just for fun, and don't teach it to trainees very often because it isn't necessary, there is one fun thing you can use it for. That is...creating strategies. While it may not be the best thing to use for creating new strategies you can use it to innovate.

I never said what the difference between the major and minor pressures was. The difference is that major pressures are something you more or less focus on while minor pressures tend to be more secondary side effects. With that said, most strategies focus on 2 of the 3 major pressures. In PvZ Protoss fast expand into corsair/dts is primarily an Economical/Technological pressure game. In PvZ a 1gate dt/corsair into expand build woud be primarily a Technological/Economical pressure game (since technology is emphasized first). In PvZ a 2gateway zealot rush into an immediate expasion would be primarily a Work Force/Economical pressure game. One more example, in PvZ a 2gate zealot rush into templar tech would primarily be a Work Force/Technological pressure game.

Anyways, how could one use this to create a unique strategy? One method is very straight forward. Simply find the combination of major pressures that hasn't been used in a matchup and create it. I'll make an example...

ZvT, there are only a handful of builds. Mainly...2hatch and 3hatch. You can 2hatch into mutas or lurkers, and 3hatch into mutas or lurkers. 2Hatch builds are primarily technological/work force builds and 3hatch builds are primarily economical/technological builds. There is no common Work Force/Economical pressure build. Let's make one!

First it should be noted that this thing is weak for a reason, the mobility and effeciency of terran's units in the early game is far too strong for zerg to pull it off. But let's just dream anyways. First one strategy comes off the top of my head just from the 5000 progamer replay database I have sitting in my head that does fit the bill, and that is the 4 hatchery hydralisk rush. It's not very popular, but it can be done and sometmes win. So maybe this has been tried afterall. Maybe we can a little more greedy, how about a 3base mass speedling into hydralisk build? While it is doubtful you will win a game against a good player it *CAN* be done and, theoretically, it's principles are sound but just the actual details of the game render it weak.

The build might go...
9 Drone
Overlord
+3 Drone
Expand
Spawning Pool
+3 Drone
Expand Again (so 3base, not very common)
+6/8 Zerglings (no sunks of course, we are doing a 3base so our only hope is in a strong work force)
Now at this point maybe get burrow and mass just enough zerglings to be safe and spend the rest on getting an adequate amount of drones on our bases. Once our drone economy is solid we can focus our money on zerglings, more hatcheries, and hydralisks. Soon after this we can start getting our lair (we focus on 2 main pressures, but of course we don't ignore the last). Use tons of speedlings, burrow, and eventually hydralisks to hopefully survive until we get our lurkers. At this point we should have a pretty strong foot in the game and start reaping the benefits of our unordinarily strong early game economy.

Note: Speedlings vs. Marines and Medics is an interesting battle. Most often a good player can win with Marines and Medics if they stim but you might be surprised how a good flank can stop even an experienced player. I see crazy things like this happen all the time. Zergligs are pretty vicious, a good group of ~30 speedlings I'm sure could take out a group of mm.

 

[unknownPresence]

(not me) I understand what you are saying Ace, but wouldnt that come from just playing a lot of matches and no natural ability is needed in order to do so.

(me) TASTELESS **** YA, can i get that dark swarm with a side of zerglings XD.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Ok, so how do you people feel about the trilogy?

Personally I think it's going to be an awesome idea that will expand the Starcraft universe even further than before!

I also like how each one of the trilogy is going to have it's own unique play style...such as the first one where you can buy units and permanent upgrades as Raynor and will get stuff that won't be available in multiplayer...such as the ability to produce firebats!

Sorry if this topic is ONLY about 1, and doesn't include 2

 

[unknownPresence]

Psycho - you will soon find out the ppl on this forum will talk about any aspect of sc. And idk, I'm kind of mad bc it's a marketing move to me. I think if they made it harder for the average hardcore gamer who really cant afford buying each game. The idea of making it 3 games i do like though because hopefully by the time i beat one i can afford to buy another. The good news is that the multiplayer will reamin the same on each game so thats a plus. As a whole i like it, Im just not that guy who can spend money left and right, and thats why I am mad.

 

[Alphicans]

It seems like we are having another dry period in the SC discussion! I hate when this happens . Can we veere off of the whole SC2 thing? It's starcraft, but I think this thread was designed to talk about brood war only / brood war related things. I really want to start playing some of you guys who post on here, I think that would be really cool. Once I get my cpu fixed ( I am using my old one, which does not have SC on it, and I cannot install it due to the fact I don't have the original) I definitely wanna play some of you.

And again, if anyone needs advice the door is always open.

 

[unknownPresence]

Im not good anymore, but I would love to play. If Im not too busy with work Im always up for a game, i play west coast bnet DemnSamurai[EF]. I have hamachi but i forget how to use it(ya its been that long).

 

[Dino~]

Ew Bnet. Hamachi or Iccup is the only way to go(competitively at least)

 

[Zone]

Brood war ftw, I play any race. I'm just more specialized in matchups. like Terran > Protoss Protoss > Zerg zerg > Terran yea it's a lame circle for me.

 

[unknownPresence]

Iccup? they havent upgraded to the newest mod tho.

 

[Dino~]

Iccup? they havent upgraded to the newest mod tho.

You mean 15.3? That was a while ago.

 

[Alphicans]

I am losing my mind! No SC for like 5 days, this is out rageous. I am gonna play for like a week straight when I get it.

Predictions on who will win the Averatec Intel Classic 2? I think Stork will take it... Maybe Flash. Opinions people? If you haven't heard of this tournament go to www.gomtv.net. WATCH THE MATCHES THEY ARE ALL GOOD!

 

[unknownPresence]

Dina, everytime i log into the abyss it say my version is too updated, iccup uses 1.5.2.

Alpha i think free is going to take it all. Taking out jaedong is godlike and that last match with the insane zealot micro, hes gonaa take it all.

 

[Alphicans]

Wrong tournament rofl.

 

[choknater]

tasteless is amaaaazing.

 

[unknownPresence]

omg ur right, im sorry. This is the one where nada was beaten in the round of 64? if it is then i think its too early too say, but Im gonna say savior or bisu, they have been playing well.

 

[Alphicans]

Bisu? Really? Even though he will most likely play flash in the quarter finals? Flash is too much of a best to be beaten by bisu, sorry. Savior maybe, but I fear that his zvz will not be as great as jaedong's, who he will be playing in the quarter finals.

 

[Mogwai]

I am losing my mind! No SC for like 5 days, this is out rageous. I am gonna play for like a week straight when I get it.

Predictions on who will win the Averatec Intel Classic 2? I think Stork will take it... Maybe Flash. Opinions people? If you haven't heard of this tournament go to www.gomtv.net. WATCH THE MATCHES THEY ARE ALL GOOD!

Jaedong is too good. Not hating on Stork or Flash or anything, but seriously, Jaedong is god tier, gotta go with him.

 

[Alphicans]

I think Jaedong has fallen in the rankings. He was 6th last time I saw. He may have beaten flash 3-0 last season, but Jaedong has to get through some really good players before he can get at Flash again. I agree, Jaedong is really good, but I think he is losing it slightly.

 

[choknater]

We'll see what happens during this Averatec Intel Classic when he goes against some tougher matchups.

lol @ Boxer's sandbagging with the Valkyries that was hilarious

 

[Alphicans]

Yeah... He is all about pleasing the audience now. He doesn't care anymore, he had his run and he recognizes that, he wants to let the newer generation shine. I can really admire Boxer.

 

[pockyD]

valkyries are actually seeing a resurgence (maybe just a "surgence"? where they ever REALLY used before? =\ ) with fantasy's mech build

 

[Alphicans]

Lol I loved the match where he won with them! They have the potential to **** mutas so hard... Too bad they die in 2 scourge hits.

 

[unknownPresence]

well to me, unless thrs an upset i think saviors only threat is jaedong, and i think jaedong has been losing his grip lately. And ya i think the bisu much match im sure will happen will beat flash.

And boxer done, ya i think hes just trying to please the crowd, but he isnt over i think he is still at the level where he could make a run at a win.

 

[Alphicans]

Bisu > Flash? Wanna make an internet monies bet? rofl.

 

[unknownPresence]

umm lol, dont know how that wokrs, but ill bet that the winner of the bisu much match that WILL happen will beat flash.

 

[Alphicans]

what? Much greater than flash as well? You do realize flash is #1 in the world right?