Starcraft Discussion

[Alphicans]

I'd train you. I am on US@West. PM me if you wanna play me or something.

 

[unknownPresence]

hmm, well i know alpha hates toss, but ill just stick with toss, and that pretty much gets rid of that worry.
and id play more, but i dont have a regular comp to use anymor

 

[Deleted member]

ok, didn't know FD was the Midas Build. That's not really the standard for TvZ these days, but it's kinda hard to pinpoint a standard. TvZ has gotten pretty diverse about how you can choose to play it effectively, so I always try to scout whether my opponent is doing a 1 rax FE, 2 rax, 1 fact FE, 2 fact, or 2 port, as they're all common enough to keep me guessing if I don't scout.

I typically open overpool speed vs. Terrans these days as it generically ***** bad defense from Terrans and also is very effective at delaying 1 rax/fact FEs and it transitions smoothly into 2 hatch play which fits my aggressive style well. It's probably a bad idea once you get out of the dregs of the D/D+ ranks, but at least at my level I like to keep myself on the offensive.

Your aggressiveness made me sad when we played :<



edit:

and also I'll face friendly games on ICCUP with anybody, I'd prefer if you don't play Terran because I hate TvT

 

[Alphicans]

Don't complain about TvT plz. It's the biggest noob excuse on starcraft, like really. It's a match-up.... Learn it, get good at it and stop *****ing about it. I literally have no respect for people who say "no TvT plz."

 

[Perfect Hero]

^It's boring, that's why people hate it.

 

[choknater]

how is it boring? in the end u have to outplay ur opponent which is fun anyway

 

[Alphicans]

It's not boring at all, it's the most intense match-up in the game, and requires the most tactical skill. There is nothing boring about it.

 

[pockyD]

nah it's boring

 

[choknater]

2 each his own lol

i enjoy campy peach dittos, so i also enjoy tvt 8D

 

[Alphicans]

Calling tvt boring is the equivalent of saying, "I suck at TvT." It's just one big excuse. I know it's my "opinion," but when you look at high level play TvT, it's the most exciting match-up.

 

[choknater]

sigh i wish zvz was more than just mutaling duels haha. i really enjoy watching zerg, but it kinda sucks that there is little variation in the matchup at a high level. at least, thats from what ive seen

 

[pockyD]

Calling tvt boring is the equivalent of saying, "I suck at TvT." It's just one big excuse. I know it's my "opinion," but when you look at high level play TvT, it's the most exciting match-up.

stop being so ridiculously pretentious; "boring" is completely subjective and has little to nothing to do with one's understanding of the matchup

 

[Alphicans]

I realize that, but when something like TvT is presented, where the majority of people who are good at the match-up find it fun and the majority of the people who suck at it say they hate it and think it's boring, allows me to make such an assumption.

 

[pockyD]

either you DON'T "realize that", or your assumption is faulty

 

[Alphicans]

Sure just ignore what I said, and say the exact same thing you already have. Every D - D+ terran I've seen enter my games on Iccup, either leaves when they see that I am terran, says no TvT, or switches races and gets ***** because they don't know wtf they're doing with either toss or zerg. C players and beyond usually have no problem with TvT, because they realize not only is it a bad idea to randomly switch races just because you don't like the match-up, but they learn how TvT takes a lot of concentration and if you don't constantly put pressure on your opponent you WILL lose. It's like any other match-up except if you mess up it's way more unforgiving.

When you say a match-up is boring it makes it sound like it's slow, non-fast paced, and uneventful. I can see how TvT may appear to look like this, but once you get GOOD at the match-up you will understand that it's completely the opposite. Boring is subjective, but there are very few people who think fast paced and eventful things are boring, and that's a fact.

 

[Perfect Hero]

how is it boring? in the end u have to outplay ur opponent which is fun anyway

In the end, with every matchup, you have to outplay your opponent or win with a lucky build order.

It's not boring at all, it's the most intense match-up in the game, and requires the most tactical skill. There is nothing boring about it.

Most intense matchup in the game is as subjective as saying TvT is boring. Lol.

I'd say PvZ or TvZ are the most intense and *dynamic* matchups of the game.

The only reason TvT is seen as the most tactical matchup is because of tanks.

IMO, being good at a vZ matchup makes or breaks your progamer "greatness". Just look at all the Top Tier players.

Jaedong = ZvZ GOD, pretty much known for a vZ and than brought his matchups to the next level

Bisu = PvZ, revolutionized the matchup, king of PvZ and pretty much the most successful and skilled Protoss player, famed for PvZ

Flash = Although he's notable for all his matchups, his TvZ(rivalry with Jaedong) is also known

Anytime these players clash, its always epic games. Even the old stars are known for there TvZ and not TvT.

Calling tvt boring is the equivalent of saying, "I suck at TvT." It's just one big excuse. I know it's my "opinion," but when you look at high level play TvT, it's the most exciting match-up.

There's no excuse from someone who doesn't play Terran lol...

I play toss and i think TvT is boring, if I can watch every matchup in the game(save TvT and ZvZ), and will not watch a TvT, its clear I think its boring because of how the matchup plays, not if I suck at TvT or not(I do).

The most high level games that produce exciting matches are revolved around Bisu, Flash and Jaedong imo.

Sure just ignore what I said, and say the exact same thing you already have. Every D - D+ terran I've seen enter my games on Iccup, either leaves when they see that I am terran, says no TvT, or switches races and gets ***** because they don't know wtf they're doing with either toss or zerg. C players and beyond usually have no problem with TvT, because they realize not only is it a bad idea to randomly switch races just because you don't like the match-up, but they learn how TvT takes a lot of concentration and if you don't constantly put pressure on your opponent you WILL lose. It's like any other match-up except if you mess up it's way more unforgiving.

When you say a match-up is boring it makes it sound like it's slow, non-fast paced, and uneventful. I can see how TvT may appear to look like this, but once you get GOOD at the match-up you will understand that it's completely the opposite. Boring is subjective, but there are very few people who think fast paced and eventful things are boring, and that's a fact.

Alphican, you're probably better than me as you imply you play C players but I'll have to say this.

Do you honestly say, TvT is more fast paced and more eventful than a regular PvZ, PvT, TvZ?

I'd even say ZvZ, PvP are faster....

If like every matchup is faster paced than TvT, how can TvT be considered fast, fast paced(in comparison to the other matchups in the game)?

And I also don't think TvT is more unforgiving than other matchups.

I think you're terran bias!

PvZ - Ah didn't count his drones = all in = die
Ah scout was late by a hair's breadth = die
Ah corsair was built one second late = mutas at your base = die
Ah didnt build 20 cannons and get 2 templars at expand = lose base = die
Ah didnt check my screen after 1 second of harass and lost shuttle = love momentum = lose

PvZ, there are so many ways to lose and letting up once means a loss

I dunno , for sure TvT isn't anymore dynamic or more intense than other matchups.

But, a usuallly agreed sentiment is that TvT is the most boring matchup in the game.

- I actually like playing TvT lol.... just that i also like playing other matchups that are better imo

- my firned is c+, b- and he says for him, all hte mirrors are borings and noone wnats to play them, pvp is boring to some and fun for others

-the classic matchups of the game are: pvt(toss advantaged), tvz(terran advantaged), zvp(zerg advantaged)

lol i probably typed too much, but I'm staying at another place and i got nothing else to do

 

[Alphicans]

"Do you honestly say, TvT is more fast paced and more eventful than a regular PvZ, PvT, TvZ?"

Yes I do. There's so much more to do in TvT. It's not just sitting around camping outside eachother's base, throwing drops whenever you want. When you drop you have to count all of your tanks and make sure you can defend properly for the inevitable counter drop. It goes like this: I drop you, but then you MUST drop me or else you lose. So with that knowledge you have to calculate how much you're willing and able to spend on a single drop, and you have to pick the best location or else you will lose. Picking the wrong thing to drop will cost you the game, and that's why it's the most unforgiving (save zvz maybe, but that can boil down to luck :\.)

TvT is the most difficult match-up in the game (call this subjective if you will, but it really widens the gap between good players and bad players) so saying you don't like it is understandable.

 

[Perfect Hero]

^But aren't you a terran player, of course you'll say one of the Terran matchups is the hardest in the game.

To counter example, in PvZ, it goes like this, i scout you and have to know the abudant amounts of things you can do JUST from extractor timing, drone count, pool timing, is nat up yet. If your scouting, just from the first few minutes is wrong, you'll lose. It's not like TvT where there's only a set number of viable builds.

Going into midgame, TvT DOES get more complex but even then PvZ, it would go like this(as protoss) I'm scoutings with corsairs for muta tech, hydra tech, lurker ling tech, hydra ling(all of those require different unit compositions and without relentless scouting while macroing... you'll lose even with a bigger army.

Thing is, picking the wrong thing to drop goes for other matchups also, and albeit even worse in PvZ. Where Bisu's whole game is based around drops(save for the 4gatearchon build). If a protoss drops a zerg and loses the units he's dropping in the process, he'll be behind for certain.

Ehhh it doesn't really matter if you think TvT is not boring or whatever.

But certainly, there are matchups much more fast paced lol........

Drops while camping are not fast paced, if you link me to a TvT that is fast paced filled with action, I can link you to an even faster paced video from either PvZ or TvZ/

 

[Deleted member]

Don't complain about TvT plz. It's the biggest noob excuse on starcraft, like really. It's a match-up.... Learn it, get good at it and stop *****ing about it. I literally have no respect for people who say "no TvT plz."

I'll complain about whatever i want, I don't have respect for wannabe-moms either

 

[Alphicans]

Due to my unwillingness to counter all of those points I will allow a friend to jump in. He'll probably try to prove us both wrong right now, but at least it gets the job done.

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

sigh i wish zvz was more than just mutaling duels haha. i really enjoy watching zerg, but it kinda sucks that there is little variation in the matchup at a high level. at least, thats from what ive seen

You could try a drastically unorthodox ZvZ build where you get 3 hatcheries and minerals. Use sunks/spores to defend, tech hydras, lurkers, devours. Move out at the right time. It's hard to do right but if you do it good then it could probably be used as your main strategy and you could go a ways with it.


About TvT:
TvT is a match-up very different from all other Starcraft matchups because of how important tactical play is in it. It requires quick thinking. It is an incredibly fast paced match-up.

There are many different builds one could do in TvT just like all other match-ups.
Here are some:

Proxy Barracks
Proxy Double Barracks
Various timings on those.

M&M Rush
Various timings on this.

2 Factory Tanks/Goliaths

1 Factory 1 Starport
-Wraiths
-Goliath Drop

Dual Starport

2 Factory Pure Tanks

Fast Expand

3 Factory Rush
-Most likely proxied

2 Factory Vulture magic ****

1 Factory Vulture into expansion

Many others...and that doesn't get into mid-game builds.

---

Is TvT faster paced than other match-ups?
I'm mainly a Protoss player but I'm a very versatile Starcraft player. In my mind something is fast paced when there is a lot going on, and there is a lot going on when it is difficult to keep up with everything. From this perspective, in my opinion, TvT is most likely the fastest paced game rivaled only by intense harassment styled PvZ. Pretty much the game action increases depending on how many expansions each player has. In something like PvZ or PvT that just means more big battles (and some drops probably) but in TvT battles are not linear. There are multiple fronts...no single large army. You have drops going all over across the map and units trying to intercept them and shoot them down. It's like a circus.

From my perspective on 'fast paced,' and in my opinion...this is how the list would go from most fast paced to least fast paced.
TvT Mid/Late Game
PvZ Mass Harass, otherwise I'd put it below TvZ.
TvZ
ZvZ - Obviously this is the /fastest/ match-up but not incredibly hard to follow. Usually there are peaceful period where the muta counts are just building up.
PvT - This gets ranked above PvP because of vulture harasses which can be pretty **** intense. I know in a lot of my PvT games it is just making your massive army do suicide runs across the map throughout the whole game in anticipation for any possible move.
PvP - Besides drops it is purely about two big armies dancing around and engaging in combat. The easiest to follow for sure. Late game it can get pretty intense with the templar drops but it's very easy to follow. You don't have units constantly trying to intercept the drops and send units in different amounts and ratios and dropping in front of drops or on drops .1 seconds before the other does or the other doesn't at all etc. etc. etc.

 

[Deleted member]

never mind!

 

[Perfect Hero]

If you are willing to show some "fast-paced" tvt games, that'd be nice.

Otherwise, everything you've said just speaks to me of an ideal exciting TvT match.

- I knkow there are good TvT matches, but like my original point, its a boring matchup compared to other matchups.

All those builds you listed can also be applied to TvP and TvZ, give or take.
- another note on that, just because a build is doable, doesn't mean its a good idea to use it, most of those builds won't work on most maps :[
PvP builds can also be listed in the same manner, and that matchup is also boring/less exciting than the other matchups of the game
Proxy Barracks[gate]
Proxy Double Barracks[gate]
Various timings on those.

M&M Rush[zealot rush]
Various timings on this.

2 Factory Tanks/Goliaths[2gate goon]

1 Factory 1 Starport[1gate robo] [a. 1gateroboob][b. 1gateroboreaverfirst][c. 1gateroboshuttlefirst]
-Wraiths
-Goliath Drop

Dual Starport

2 Factory Pure Tanks[3 gate goon]

Fast Expand[1gate expand]

3 Factory Rush[4 gate goon]
-Most likely proxied

2 Factory Vulture magic ****[3 gate speedlots]

1 Factory Vulture into expansion[2gate expand]

In fact, I'll list more, from a 1gate opening
-cyber -> robo - > a. ob b. reaver c. shuttle
-cyber -> citadel - > robo -> shuttle - > dt
-cyber - > robo -> a. ob - > expand
-cyber - > robo -> b. reaver - > expand
-cyber -> goon -> expand
-cyber - > gate - > expand

There might be other builds, but those are ones to come to mine just for PvP

From a 2gate opening, most of the same apply, except there are rushes
2gate - > mass zealot rush
From there you can deter your build
a. Robo
b . Citadel
c. forgecannon expand

Then there's the 3 gate openings with reaver or Dt and after that are the 4 gate all ins.


Even if TvT has many builds that CAN be used, at high level play, its only going to be about 3 builds that are the standard for each map. :[

All those PvP builds I listed, are seen pretty often even though there is an established standard, eg. 1gaterobo ob expand

Pretty much the mirror matchups aren't as exciting or intense as others.

My friend is C+/B- and he says TvZ is pretty much the most exciting matchup, and he plays all the races.

 

[Mogwai]

ZvP is the bestest matchup IMO, followed closely by ZvT. All the others are good too, but I really love playing and watching those two.

I hate when Zerg players leave games because I play Zerg, I love playing ZvZ

 

[Deleted member]

TvP is my favorite because of the fear of getting owned in the beginning, harassing with vultures/tanks/dropships in the mid game to the inevitable death push that decides the game

 

[Alphicans]

Lol the fear of dying early game in TvP is definitely present.

 

[aeghrur]

So, anyone see that 4-pool JD pulled off against Fantasy?
Brilliant play at the end there.

 

[Alphicans]

Oh **** dude that was brutal. Fantasy had everything prepared, the perfect block for that bunker, and even the loss of that first marine didn't guarantee Jaedong's win. I think if Fantasy just had like some scvs ready for that attack, instead of reacting when it happened that match could've easily gone in Fantasy's favor :\.

 

[Mogwai]

yea, allowing the surround on the bunker was brutal.

 

[Alphicans]

After that match Fantasy must've felt like ****.

 

[Mogwai]

definitely. getting 4/5 pooled by a zerg in finals seems to be psychologically really crushing. just look at what's happened to Best's career since July roflstomped him in the OSL finals... not only did he look completely off his game for games 2 and 3, but his career has taken a huge downward spiral since then.

 

[Alphicans]

Oh **** everyone watch berserker vs flash now. Definitely some beast games there.

 

[choknater]

those games were intense.

referring to flash vs berserker

 

[Deleted member]

I am a big Iris fanboy

but god dam flash is great

 

[Ace(WorshipMe)]

If you are willing to show some "fast-paced" tvt games, that'd be nice.

Otherwise, everything you've said just speaks to me of an ideal exciting TvT match.

- I knkow there are good TvT matches, but like my original point, its a boring matchup compared to other matchups.

All those builds you listed can also be applied to TvP and TvZ, give or take.
- another note on that, just because a build is doable, doesn't mean its a good idea to use it, most of those builds won't work on most maps :[
PvP builds can also be listed in the same manner, and that matchup is also boring/less exciting than the other matchups of the game
Proxy Barracks[gate]
Proxy Double Barracks[gate]
Various timings on those.

M&M Rush[zealot rush]
Various timings on this.

2 Factory Tanks/Goliaths[2gate goon]

1 Factory 1 Starport[1gate robo] [a. 1gateroboob][b. 1gateroboreaverfirst][c. 1gateroboshuttlefirst]
-Wraiths
-Goliath Drop

Dual Starport

2 Factory Pure Tanks[3 gate goon]

Fast Expand[1gate expand]

3 Factory Rush[4 gate goon]
-Most likely proxied

2 Factory Vulture magic ****[3 gate speedlots]

1 Factory Vulture into expansion[2gate expand]

In fact, I'll list more, from a 1gate opening
-cyber -> robo - > a. ob b. reaver c. shuttle
-cyber -> citadel - > robo -> shuttle - > dt
-cyber - > robo -> a. ob - > expand
-cyber - > robo -> b. reaver - > expand
-cyber -> goon -> expand
-cyber - > gate - > expand

There might be other builds, but those are ones to come to mine just for PvP

From a 2gate opening, most of the same apply, except there are rushes
2gate - > mass zealot rush
From there you can deter your build
a. Robo
b . Citadel
c. forgecannon expand

Then there's the 3 gate openings with reaver or Dt and after that are the 4 gate all ins.


Even if TvT has many builds that CAN be used, at high level play, its only going to be about 3 builds that are the standard for each map. :[

All those PvP builds I listed, are seen pretty often even though there is an established standard, eg. 1gaterobo ob expand

Pretty much the mirror matchups aren't as exciting or intense as others.

My friend is C+/B- and he says TvZ is pretty much the most exciting matchup, and he plays all the races.

This is all good except you seem to have completely misunderstood why I mentioned all the build orders. I mentioned them for one reason...simply to demonstrate that there are a variety of builds one can expect from a TvT game.

I don't know about you but I've found almost all higher level TvT match-ups I've seen to be interesting and fast paced.

About "standard" PvP builds...remember:
Safe > Rush > Greed > Safe
Standard is safe but many players add spice to their builds.

I didn't argue that TvT was the most /exciting/ match-up. I argued that the match-up that:
1) Had the most going on usually.
2) Required the most tactical thought.
If your friend is C+/B- then that probably puts him right up my alley. I have over 7000 replays in my replay folder and most of them are of progamers. I've studied this game far more than I've played it. The most exciting match-ups to me are ZvZ, TvT, and TvZ probably. My favorite match-ups to watch, however, are PvT, PvP, and PvZ. Although my main race is Protoss that doesn't mean I don't know about the other races. I can't play other races quite as well because my APM is only high enough to play Protoss proficiently. Also I'm a big fan of unorthodox play (which is hardly inferior to standard play if you know what you're doing). The only relevancy that one's playing level has to this topic is whether or not they know what an SCV does or not so...I'm not exactly sure what was so important about that whole thing.

I refuse to argue that one match-up is more boring or more exciting than another because such is subjective and therefore not arguable.

The basic idea is...

PvP - Two armies fighting each other with some sabotage dropping.
PvT - Two armies fighting each other with a little bit of vulture harassment and some recalls or sabotage dropping.
PvZ - Two armies fighting each other with some dropping and corsairs for the most part. Some matches will have corsair/dts which go all over the place.
TvZ - Two armies fighting each other with dark swarms and some sabotage.
ZvZ - Mutas vs. Mutas and Zerglings vs. Zerglings.

TvT - No main army but units scattered across bases and territory and redistributing themselves in a tactical battle for control of the game.

 

[Deleted member]

TvT could be the most exciting matchup to watch

or the most boring, it's based on how the person winning dictates the flow of the game



but from what i hear from good tvters its very fun, even if it looks boring

 

[Mogwai]

I too love Iris and even though I'm sad he lost GOM, I remain hopeful for his MSL chances since Jaedong is no longer in it. Kwanro and Calm being the only two people between a terran and the championship seems like a good deal for him.

 

[Perfect Hero]

This is all good except you seem to have completely misunderstood why I mentioned all the build orders. I mentioned them for one reason...simply to demonstrate that there are a variety of builds one can expect from a TvT game.

Yes, but then there are a variety of builds you can expect from every match. Some matchups show more common ground with same builds being used, (PvP and TvT come to mind).

I don't know about you but I've found almost all higher level TvT match-ups I've seen to be interesting and fast paced.

I find them boring unless I'm playing the matchup myself.

About "standard" PvP builds...remember:
Safe > Rush > Greed > Safe
Standard is safe but many players add spice to their builds.

Just more like standard starcraft builds in general.

I didn't argue that TvT was the most /exciting/ match-up. I argued that the match-up that:
1) Had the most going on usually.
2) Required the most tactical thought.
If your friend is C+/B- then that probably puts him right up my alley. I have over 7000 replays in my replay folder and most of them are of progamers. I've studied this game far more than I've played it. The most exciting match-ups to me are ZvZ, TvT, and TvZ probably. My favorite match-ups to watch, however, are PvT, PvP, and PvZ. Although my main race is Protoss that doesn't mean I don't know about the other races. I can't play other races quite as well because my APM is only high enough to play Protoss proficiently. Also I'm a big fan of unorthodox play (which is hardly inferior to standard play if you know what you're doing). The only relevancy that one's playing level has to this topic is whether or not they know what an SCV does or not so...I'm not exactly sure what was so important about that whole thing.

I refuse to argue that one match-up is more boring or more exciting than another because such is subjective and therefore not arguable.

I didn't debate for the sake of saying TvT is boring, its when people assume I don't know anything about TvT, that's why I think its boring that sparked the arguement.

I think its just as bad to assume someone doesn't know what they're talking about if they do not like a certain matchup.

The basic idea is...

PvP - Two armies fighting each other with some sabotage dropping.
PvT - Two armies fighting each other with a little bit of vulture harassment and some recalls or sabotage dropping.
PvZ - Two armies fighting each other with some dropping and corsairs for the most part. Some matches will have corsair/dts which go all over the place.
TvZ - Two armies fighting each other with dark swarms and some sabotage.
ZvZ - Mutas vs. Mutas and Zerglings vs. Zerglings.

TvT - No main army but units scattered across bases and territory and redistributing themselves in a tactical battle for control of the game.

All of them have armies fighting each other, PvP usually has one main army because unit count and positioning in battle is important. PvT, the army is divided usually until endgame where every unit is needed to fight 3/3 ups. PvZ, it depends on how the protoss plays, but if they go mass harass style, they don't even have an army until their final push. If they go a regular archon rush build, mid game, armies will be all over the place, zealot control groups will be fighting in a random zerg expansion and main army will be fighting zerg main army.
TvZ - I don't really see TvZ as one army fighting another, there's usually multiple armies.
ZvZ - no comment
TvT - No main army but a bunch of little armies

Do not take this the wrong way :O

I understand TvT is different and focuses more on tactical play, but some can understand chess and still think its boring.

When I say TvT is boring, I'm merely comparing it to the more dynamic matchups in my opinion. Just like if I were to play chess, yes it is fun but if I were to compare it to another board game go, I'd say chess is boring relative to go, which is of course an opinion, it doesn't mean I have no knowledge of either game.

Anyways, Ace, we should get some matches, it gets tiring playing random iccup pubbies. Come beast on me ;O

 

[aeghrur]

I too love Iris and even though I'm sad he lost GOM, I remain hopeful for his MSL chances since Jaedong is no longer in it. Kwanro and Calm being the only two people between a terran and the championship seems like a good deal for him.

I'm with ya. Although I'm a zerg fan, I do want Iris to win the MSL.
He deserves it after getting that HUGE win against Bisu.
Epic epic last game.

Also, FIREFIST FOR BONJWA, lol.

 

[Mogwai]

lmao, kid's on a tear right now...