Stereotypes continually insist Wario is Low-Bottom Tier

[Radical Dreamer]

It's a matter of game mechanics. Virtually every game mechanic change made from Melee to Brawl caters to range being more important: fewer movement options, deemphasis on combos due to low hitstun, reduced effectiveness of throwing, low reward for effective punishment, deemphasis on techchasing, the general reduction of knockback power compared to Melee, and an overall trend toward defensive play.

Just as a point of information, of the nine games M2K played against Mango that day, he used Marth in only two of them and won one of those games.

Also, for those who keep confusing the terms, DI and aerial mobility are not the same thing.

 

[Drezel]

It's a matter of game mechanics. Virtually every game mechanic change made from Melee to Brawl caters to range being more important: fewer movement options, deemphasis on combos due to low hitstun, reduced effectiveness of throwing, low reward for effective punishment, deemphasis on techchasing, the general reduction of knockback power compared to Melee, and an overall trend toward defensive play.

you do realize that there are (2) types of range

1 being marth's stationary sword attacks and the other being moving attacks.
for example warios fair can cover about half of the area off stage when stage hogging making it extremely difficult for loser swords people to make it back. another is wario's dair. he can cover roughly 1/10 of the screen with this move. can marth do that? probably but hes still a gay swordy ya marth is def. homo go check it

 

[Warlock*G]

It's a matter of game mechanics. Virtually every game mechanic change made from Melee to Brawl caters to range being more important: fewer movement options, deemphasis on combos due to low hitstun, reduced effectiveness of throwing, low reward for effective punishment, deemphasis on techchasing, the general reduction of knockback power compared to Melee, and an overall trend toward defensive play.

Alright, now I understand just exactly what you were talking about earlier. Guess we'll have to wait to see just *how important* range is, and if Wario's "redeeming qualities" stop him from being low tier or not.

Because we can't do that with words... we can only wait to see Dama, Paxz and others start kicking ***.

 

[Ryan-K]

The sliding Usmash is probably not that useful of an approach really, but I just wanted to mention it as an option. Shielding is actually exactly what I want my opponents to do when I'm playing Wario since he is one of the few characters that can actually pressure shields in this game. With Wario, it's MUCH easier to handle a shield camper than a "wall of Fair" Marth. The Bike is decent for getting one hit in through their range, but really it doesn't lead to much else since he can't jump off of it immediately. It's really more useful for handling projectile spam than swords. True having little tricks doesn't equal a good character, but it doesn't hurt by any means.

Wario isn't that great at pressuring shields, you can usually just roll away. How is marth not as good as handling shield camping than wario? The only argument I could see is with the bite but it has no range and stops his horizontal momentum. Marth still has good aerial mobility and he can control the same amount of range as wario but much much safer because of his disjointed hitbox, his speed, and his lack of lag on all of his aerials except for dair.

Please see the above point in response to superryan as to why it is somewhat relevant to this thread. Why is good range more important in Brawl than Melee? I assume you are basing this on tournament results?

Like Radical said, range is more important than melee because you don't have as many movement options and you can't really combo in this game that much at all, in addition to the fact that there is next to no shield stun on almost all attacks that aren't warlock punch powerful means you have to abuse your range unless you wanna get punished.

10 characters

EDIT: also the marth matches of m2k vs mango are generally mad campy and m2k starts ******, but then mango lands a rest from a utilt or w/e at low percent so it's not really relevant to the argument. Melee had more movement options than brawl. Also jiggs falls at about the same speed and her jump is the same speed as wario's. Plus she has 5 jumps

 

[Warlock*G]

Wario isn't that great at pressuring shields, you can usually just roll away. How is marth not as good as handling shield camping than wario? The only argument I could see is with the bite but it has no range and stops his horizontal momentum. Marth still has good aerial mobility and he can control the same amount of range as wario but much much safer because of his disjointed hitbox, his speed, and his lack of lag on all of his aerials except for dair.

Wario's dair is daaaamn good at pressuring shields, and pressuring in general. The bite isn't that great by itself: it's when you mix it with dairs that it becomes... a guessing game.

Like Radical said, range is more important than in melee because you don't have as many movement options and you can't really combo in this game that much at all, in addition to the fact that there is next to no shield stun on almost all attacks that aren't warlock punch powerful means you have to abuse your range unless you wanna get punished.

Or abuse whatever else has been mentionned that Wario got. That means, Everything But Reach (EBR (tm)).

Range? I mean, whatever happened to speed? Isn't it supposed to prevent you from being punished? I can understand that range is more important than in Melee; however, as I said, we'll have to wait and see just *how much* it matters.

 

[Steck]

I used to think Wario was low tier but I came around and saw his advantages. He is an awesome character. The bike and dair are really cool. His range can be overcome. The only thing I really have trouble with is his recovery- but many people on this thread say it is really good (so maybe I'm not doing it right)

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

I'm tired of hearing of hearing this all the time. Wario is pretty good, and people who put him below mid tier have pretty much NEVER played a good wario, ever. I could write a essay on here about his highlights but I've done it so many times that I've grown tired of it. We need to get out there and win some tournaments :D

 

[3GOD]

Wario isn't that great at pressuring shields, you can usually just roll away. How is marth not as good as handling shield camping than wario? The only argument I could see is with the bite but it has no range and stops his horizontal momentum. Marth still has good aerial mobility and he can control the same amount of range as wario but much much safer because of his disjointed hitbox, his speed, and his lack of lag on all of his aerials except for dair.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying (I'll edit the original post to make it more clear as well). I didn't mean that Wario was better at shield pressure than Marth. I meant that when I'm playing Wario, I'd rather face a shield camper than a good spacing Marth; it's easier to handle shield campers with Wario than it is to get through the range of Marth with Wario.

Back to the other points, Wario is QUITE good at shield pressure with his aerial attacks (mostly Dair and Fair), good aerial movement, and Bite. True the Bite stops his momentum, but if they are shielding, you can get right upon them, release the control stick, and Bite (or reverse Bite). Generally, you can predict when an opponent will stay in their shield if you first attack it with a Dair or Fair (full jump works best usually - though not against short characters obviously). They'll typically either roll away immediately after the attack ends to escape the pressure, or they'll remain in the shield expecting to counter after you attempt another attack. If they roll, you have the good aerial movement to follow and Bite them as the roll ends. If they remain in shield or spot-dodge, the Bite can get them there also.

It's a matter of game mechanics. Virtually every game mechanic change made from Melee to Brawl caters to range being more important: fewer movement options, deemphasis on combos due to low hitstun, reduced effectiveness of throwing, low reward for effective punishment, deemphasis on techchasing, the general reduction of knockback power compared to Melee, and an overall trend toward defensive play.

I think Wario has some of the better movement options in the game since it's clear that there are very limited options on the ground (no good dash dancing or and wave dashing), and his reward for a successful approach can actually be fairly good since he's good at edge guarding/gimping as it exists in Brawl.

As for the other points about range being more important in Brawl, I can't help but agree. Defense seems to be BIG in brawl, and swords make a good defense (better than shields ironically - at least versus Wario). Wario, on the other hand, has few defensive options really.

However, I'm not giving up hope in these matches (e.g. Wario vs Marth) yet. I think there are ways through the defenses of the ranged characters (mostly air dodging probably), and as these ways become more second nature, the battles won't seem so uphill.

Just as a point of information, of the nine games M2K played against Mango that day, he used Marth in only two of them and won one of those games.

also the marth matches of m2k vs mango are generally mad campy and m2k starts ******, but then mango lands a rest from a utilt or w/e at low percent so it's not really relevant to the argument. Melee had more movement options than brawl. Also jiggs falls at about the same speed and her jump is the same speed as wario's. Plus she has 5 jumps

First off, I concede the example of Mango vs. M2K. I really didn't know all the details of the matches that day.

Second, comparing Brawl Jigglypuff to Wario, I saw a "fall speed list" sometime a few weeks ago, but I cannot find it now despite several attempts at searching for it. However, I'm pretty sure that Jigglypuff falls significantly slower than Wario; this is the main difference that makes Jiggs feel sluggish to me.

EDIT: Gave it another try and found the list I was referring to: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=159248

 

[Blackbelt]

It's a crying shame.

I've been using Wario all day now on Wifi, and I took down so many opponents that it's ridiculous.


Why don'y people see it?

 

[Warlock*G]

However, I'm not giving up hope in these matches (e.g. Wario vs Marth) yet. I think there are ways through the defenses of the ranged characters (mostly air dodging probably), and as these ways become more second nature, the battles won't seem so uphill.

Emblem Lord made a list of Marth's matchups on the Marth forums. Marth vs Wario was 6:4 in favor of Marth (while characters like GDorf and C.Falcon got 7:3 for Marth, and Yoshi 8:2 for Marth). In fact, most characters had 6:4. So maybe, just maybe that means Wario isn't as ****ed as we thought when he's up against Marth. At least, not as ****ed as *I* thought.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Wario sucks! I hate him!


NOT!

When I first PLAYED as Wario, I knew right off the bat that he had potential. Like many characters in Brawl, I just needed to unlock it first. Wario's air movement is insane, he can Fair or Bair then retreat. Wario also has the best killer in the game. Better than Ike's forward smash, better than PK flash.

Im talking about the fart. The fart can be set up for an instant kill.
But smash_7, you have to wait for 2 minutes!!! Wrong! Half waft (50 sec) has more knockback then the max charge! Matches take a long time, and with no items, Im sure you'll have the half waft charge when enemies are in the air. Next is his Fsmash. Super armor frames, lagfree (looks laggy as hell, because he sticks his face out) and fast startup smash? That makes Wario an easy killer.

Ike is good, but honestly ( I like Ike more too!) Wario destroys him. Big deal if Wario is outranged, Ike has slow ground attack's, and Wario can combo the opponent easily with air attacks. You shouldn't die easily because Wario's a fatass (9th heaviest character in the game)

If you get hit by Ike's forward smash you deserve to lose.
Wario's grab range is disgustingly far.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Wario isn't as ****ed up as you people make him out to be

You want someone ****ed up in Brawl? Play Peach, she sucks now.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Also, people like Warlock G, G20D, you guys are way to nice. Tell those noobs to go where' they came from. Seriously, if they think Wario sucks, let them be!

 

[Warlock*G]

Also, people like Warlock G, G20D, you guys are way to nice. Tell those noobs to go where' they came from. Seriously, if they think Wario sucks, let them be!

Well that's the way I am. Somebody even called me "Nice G Man" back in 2004.

 

[Ryan-K]

Emblem Lord made a list of Marth's matchups on the Marth forums. Marth vs Wario was 6:4 in favor of Marth (while characters like GDorf and C.Falcon got 7:3 for Marth, and Yoshi 8:2 for Marth). In fact, most characters had 6:4. So maybe, just maybe that means Wario isn't as ****ed as we thought when he's up against Marth. At least, not as ****ed as *I* thought.

Considering gdorf is retardedly slow, cf sucks, and yoshi only really has bair, no ****.

"oh wow someone said this, it's the truth!!!"

I like how many of the posters in this thread assume I think wario sucks. If you actually read the posts instead of clicking "reply" in a teary-eyed rage then maybe you would have seen my point that he just isn't as good as you give him credit for. There's a ****ing difference *****es.

also lol at the ike vs wario thing.

Ike can practically spam jabs and it beats wario's dair, it is faster than his fsmash and has more range. Ike's nair is not slow at all. His fair ends in midair when you full jump it. Maybe you should get your head out of your *** and stop basing matchup data off of your scrub neighbors. Ike's forwardsmash doesn't mean ****. All his other moves except grabs are kill moves as well so it's not like he needs it.

Just because you can get around something doesn't mean it's not an uphill battle. It just means you know the matchup better or are better in general.

Shield pressure: If the opponent has any intelligence at all they shouldn't be that close to you anyway since jump back with an aerial beats anything wario does. If he bites he stops following them, and his aerials don't have enough reach. The fact that you have to outplay your opponent in the shield scenario shows that you are overrating him. If they see you going past them they shouldn't roll towards you anyway, when they get crossed up they should be rolling AWAY from you.

Ok on the jiggs point but it's still not a very large difference if you play instead of looking at lists, lol.

 

[PUDGE]

wow really this argument is still going repeating same things over and over back and forth but with different words, there like metaphors back and forth, anyway it looks like you supervan nor the wario players( I and the rest here) will b agreeing with eachother, and to throw in my 2 cents in, wario has 38-40 frames of invincibility while air dodging, almost the same as ground dodge, you can get close to anyone at anytime, you just have to time things correctly, and who cares if you have to work harder, you cannot tell any serious wario player that wario is not good, yet he may not b the best he still is crazy if your good with him, in our eyes its like you havent given wario a chance go play with him see what hes like, because all these peopel here cant be ******** for maining wario, there has to be a reason.

 

[Ryan-K]

because they have fun with him? That's a pretty good reason for maining him lol

Yeah I can imagine everything looks like the same thing back and forth if you only look at 2 posts anyway.

 

[PUDGE]

obviously you dont udnerstand how the things you say are related, for 2 pages you talked about aerial mobility with warlockg and it was the same comments back and forth plz read the post

 

[Ryan-K]

That's natural when you refute a point with facts but they just repeat "but...but...aerial mobility!!!"

 

[PUDGE]

English was hard for you. Do not feel like arguing like we are now, as you see once again things are repeating, have a pleasant day.

 

[Dastrn]

I know wario has some very good aspects, but in all honesty, his range just plain WILL hold him back against Marth, ROB, Zelda, DK, and a handful of other characters.

I think MK will counter him as well, and I see MK, marth, and ROB as top 3. With that being the case, Wario will just have a hard time being competitive against tournament players.

Do what you can with him, because he is fun to play and not bad at all, but don't expect him to be high tier, because he is outshined by more than half of the cast.

 

[Warlock*G]

I like how many of the posters in this thread assume I think wario sucks.

I think most people here know very well the debate's not about top vs bottom, it's about the degree to which Wario's lack of reach handicaps him. Let's ignore guys like Drezel k? (sorry Drezel)

I think he's middle too but I'm sick of how many people think this game is perfectly balanced or some ****.

Yeah, here's proof you don't think Wario sucks, and that's cool. But nobody in this topic ever said that this game was "perfectly balanced". You're the guy assuming here.

Considering gdorf is retardedly slow, cf sucks, and yoshi only really has bair, no ****.

An important point is that *most* characters got 6:4, and I was saying this bodes quite well since I thought Wario would get 7:3 or worse.

"oh wow someone said this, it's the truth!!!"

1) E. Lord is credible in my eyes.
2) I said "maybe, just maybe", as in, I don't take someone else's saying for absolute truth. Stop "quoting" us with things we never said, then dissing said quote.

If you actually read the posts instead of clicking "reply" in a teary-eyed rage then maybe you would have seen my point that he just isn't as good as you give him credit for. There's a ****ing difference *****es.

Teary-eyed rage? Again with your made-up scenarios.

Shield pressure: If the opponent has any intelligence at all they shouldn't be that close to you anyway since jump back with an aerial beats anything wario does. If he bites he stops following them, and his aerials don't have enough reach. The fact that you have to outplay your opponent in the shield scenario shows that you are overrating him. If they see you going past them they shouldn't roll towards you anyway, when they get crossed up they should be rolling AWAY from you.

Yeah, the sword users really have an advantage. But we already knew this a long time ago.
As for Wario staying close to the opponent, I think he's got what it takes to do so... but we already went through this, and somebody just talked about Wario's air dodge and the number of frames it has. It's all about how well Wario can deal with reach. Yeah, I know, no ****, but I wanted to put things back in perspective.

Understand me here: your arguments are valid, and it's not that I don't take them in consideration, it's just that some other people made valid points too in favor of Wario, and I saw so much vids of Wario owning other characters, that I can't help but think that it wasn't just the player's skill making him win, even against swordies.

In other words, Wario, middle tier? Yeah, maybe, but because of the points that I already mentionned (we went back and forth through this), plus the points that other people, including 3GOD, made, *plus* because of matches I saw, *even though I know those aren't objective at all*, I don't think it's impossible for Wario to be high-mid or even low-high.

Edit: right, Marco got a point.

Edit2:

That's natural when you refute a point with facts but they just repeat "but...but...aerial mobility!!!"

Right, another made-up quote. **** this ****.

I was insisting on aerial mobility because the debate started when someone said Wario's lack of ground speed handicapped him. So obviously, air speed was the answer. I also insisted on it because it's one of his best assets, *and* I talked about some other moves as well that worked *in combination* with said air mobility.

I will repeat it now: I *never* saw air mobility as an end-all to every problem. Ever.

 

[Ryan-K]

I think most people here know very well the debate's not about top vs bottom, it's about the degree to which Wario's lack of reach handicaps him. Let's ignore guys like Drezel k? (sorry Drezel)



Yeah, here's proof you don't think Wario sucks, and that's cool. But nobody in this topic ever said that this game was "perfectly balanced". You're the guy assuming here.

Well it's not just this topic but it's ALL OVER THE PLACE. If you read anywhere aside the wario boards you will see there ARE people that think that.





1) E. Lord is credible in my eyes.
2) I said "maybe, just maybe", as in, I don't take someone else's saying for absolute truth. Stop "quoting" us with things we never said, then dissing said quote.

I will only when I stop seeing it done to me.



Teary-eyed rage? Again with your made-up scenarios.

I was talking about smashbros_7 and it seemed to me he was pretty angry about the subject. It's pretty bad when you have to diss hyperboles and call it a scenario.



Yeah, the sword users really have an advantage. But we already knew this a long time ago.
As for Wario staying close to the opponent, I think he's got what it takes to do so... but we already went through this, and somebody just talked about Wario's air dodge and the number of frames it has. It's all about how well Wario can deal with reach. Yeah, I know, no ****, but I wanted to put things back in perspective.


Understand me here: your arguments are valid, and it's not that I don't take them in consideration, it's just that some other people made valid points too in favor of Wario, and I saw so much vids of Wario owning other characters, that I can't help but think that it wasn't just the player's skill making him win, even against swordies.

Well it certainly can't be anything aside from player skill that allows Wario to beat characters that **** him.

In other words, Wario, middle tier? Yeah, maybe, but because of the points that I already mentionned (we went back and forth through this), plus the points that other people, including 3GOD, made, *plus* because of matches I saw, *even though I know those aren't objective at all*, I don't think it's impossible for Wario to be high-mid or even low-high.

Edit: right, Marco got a point.

Edit2:

Right, another made-up quote. **** this ****.

I was insisting on aerial mobility because the debate started when someone said Wario's lack of ground speed handicapped him. So obviously, air speed was the answer. I also insisted on it because it's one of his best assets, *and* I talked about some other moves as well that worked *in combination* with said air mobility.

I will repeat it now: I *never* saw air mobility as an end-all to every problem. Ever.

I will repeat it now: I *never* said I was referring SPECIFICALLY TO YOU, and NOT ANYONE ELSE IN THIS THREAD.

geeeeeeeeeez

 

[Bobz]

the more i play the more it sinks in: wario is a solid mid tier

he has the options for some mind game stuff, plenty of killing power, but brawl promotes a campy game that wario has a lot of trouble with

with play style and being smart, wario can go toe to toe with almost anyone, but its an uphill battle

and unfortunately, counter picking him becomes more obvious, i just can not beat a decent dedede or marth, and any falco that can chain grab well has a solid throw spike bair edge hog system against you

wario can even withstand a lot of back and forth, you can survive some crazy stuff, but the moment someone like toon or pit runs away to shoot a lot, you're in trouble

 

[Illussionary]

Yeah Mid Tier seems about right, but Low-Bottom HEEEELLLLLLLL NO!

 

[Drezel]

Disgusting!!!

I will repeat it now: I *never* saw air mobility as an end-all to every problem. Ever.

P
U
S
S
Y

GROW A PAIR!

 

[Samus_ABe]

OMG PLEASE STOP POSTING ON THIS THREAD UNTIL I POST MY VIDEO RESULTS FROM BRAWL BASH II...

i absolutly ***** the host of the tournies marth, watch the video and you will see how wario is correctly played to his full potential. 3-4 hit combos included =)

and no these kids were not scrubs, the best of florida gathered in miami for this, pot was over $1300


p.s meta knight certainly gives wario trouble, but in time we will all learn what to do with him. (and deedee)

 

[hippochinfat!!]

I thought Wario would suck until I played him. All his moves seemed sorta gimmicky

He is now my main along with DK. He's amazing and his air control is awesome.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Superryan. You have to be the biggest idiot on smashboards. Wario doesnt just have air mobility.

He has above average power, an awesome recovery, alot of weight, on top of all that he isnt slow and an amazing air game just adds to an already great character. The worst attribute a character can have is being slow. Having a small amount of range is better than being too slow to react to any attack. And yes Wario fsmash is stronger and faster than Ike ftilt. It even has super armor frames. Wario is a strong, averagely speed type, weighty, aerial fighting, great recovery character... if he had range he would just be broken.

 

[dinhotheone]

idk why everyone cares so much. in ssb64 i played yoshi, and in melee i played doc. why? because the look on their faces when my underrated character beats thier tier ***** char. if everyone *****es and gets wario moved to top tier (hypothetically of course) it will take out a large part of the enjoyment of winning. allow them to underestimate us, for it is only to our advantage.

samus abe, no ones gona wait for you, put your ego away.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

What about all the other characters in the game who are probably better than Wario?

 

[Doctor Destructo]

What about all the other characters in the game who are probably better than Wario?

They're not nearly as awesome.

Which is why I play Wario.

 

[Magus-Cie]

I'm a GDorf player, just stopping by your guys' Wario boards for a moment. GDorf is ****ed good, and works well against a bunch of characters, but I die a little inside when I go against wario. His air control is just insane. He is ****ed strong. And because of threads saying he sucks, everyone underestimates him

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I understand playing a character because you like him/her. But when it comes down to it, having some strengths doesn't save a character from being low tier. If it did, Mewtwo would not be low tier in Melee. Neither does beating good high tier players. If it did, Bowser would not be low tier in Melee. They need to be good in comparison to a significant portion of the other characters in the game and need to match up well against them as well. Wario probably does not fit this criteria; most of his matchups will probably be stacked against him.

 

[handsockpuppet]

it seems there's two different conversations going on. one is whether Wario is a good character or not, the other is what his tier placement will be. they are very different. if it were just how good the character was, then Ike would be botttom tier (in my opinion). but in truth, it's about how many people play the character and if there's any good players of that character. Wario doesn't lack skill. he lacks a lot of good players.

 

[Vetti]

So true... I only recently picked up wario but when you take the time to learn his moves its easy to say he is a great character with alot of potential. If his moves are used properly, like most characters of course, he'll cause massive damage. Theres a great deal of mind games with him based off his odd fighting style. But the fact that he farts and is fat (cant think of other reasons to hate him) is only an illusion to hide the powerhouse he can be....

Wario is the man... nuff said lol

 

[handsockpuppet]

actually, being fat and farting is just another reason to love him. he's a manly beast.

 

[handsockpuppet]

sorry for double quote

 

[Smashbros_7]

Wario is faster than ike, making him better(speed and a number of other things make him better than ike) radical dreamer, play the character and actually get good as Wario, or you can get the **** out and mindlesly critisize some other character you don't know **** about.

 

[studly]

Dude wario's down air kicks
and thats all their is too it...i mean it solves the range problem and ist good for combos