Suicide KO's: Who Wins?

[Sliq]

As you probably know, in Brawl various characters have various suicide tactics which takes the opponent down with them. As you may or may not know, who dies first is dependent on controller port. For example, if I suicide grab someone with Ganon's over b, if I am the higher controller port it goes to sudden death. HOWEVER, if Ganon is a lower controller port than his opponent, Ganon loses.

Now, personally, I fell this discrepancy is, for lack of a more poignant word, ********. People shouldn't be rock, paper, scissoring their way to victory by winning the higher controller port.

I propose a change to the current rules, that benefits the person preforming the suicide maneuver so that they win the match, regardless of how the game declares the outcome. If someone is able to land a suicide kill, then they should be rewarded the victory, and the ******* that fell for it should lose for being a *******.

I have been suggested that the 2 players play a 1 stock match to determine the winner, and if another suicide occurs, then the suicider is awarded the victory while the suicidee is loses and is laughed at for falling for the same **** twice within like a 2 minute period.

Furthermore, if player 1 suicide kills player 2, and in the 1 stock match player 2 suicides player 1, a final 1 stock match is played, and the person who is hit by the suicide move will lose regardless of game outcome.

What are you guys' take on this?

 

[waks]

Wouldn't that be somewhat unfair? I mean, you can spam Ganoncide all the way, or w/e suicide techs your character has. x_x

The 1v1 stock after a suicide would be good though.

 

[takieddine]

Nice point you brought up, but this is just another case where

Spoiler

brawlsux.

 

[SwiftBass]

hmm i never thought of this. something should be done.

I vote for the pokemon explosion/selfdestruct clause.

 

[Juke]

Hmmm...maybe.

 

[Blackbelt]

hmm i never thought of this. something should be done.

I vote for the pokemon explosion/selfdestruct clause.

No. I vote for the opposite of the Explosion clause.



Suicider wins, i think.

 

[Sliq]

Wouldn't that be somewhat unfair? I mean, you can spam Ganoncide all the way, or w/e suicide techs your character has. x_x

The 1v1 stock after a suicide would be good though.

Except you forgot the part where Ganon's suicide has NO priorty and can be stopped with a well placed aerial, or you can simply insta-edgehog him and then roll, and he'll fall helplessly to his doom.

OR you can hit him from above, say, with a SPIKE, and he'll die. It's easy as **** to get around, you just need to not be stupid and get grabbed by it, and if you are stupid, you should lose for playing like a moron. Simple as that.

But I mean, you shouldn't need to have KNOWLEDGE in order to place well at tournaments. OH WAIT, THAT'S ********.

Seriously, none of the suicide moves are even remotely broken, like at all.

 

[Hax]

ughhh tough call but something has to be done. i say another 1-stock match is played and 1-stock matches just keep going. if anyone suicides during the 1-stock match just do another. eventually someone will just get a normal kill.

 

[_Phloat_]

IMO Suicider should win.. Thats how it was in melee just because of the way things worked out. And before someone says this is not melee 2.0, regardless of game controller port should never decide something.

 

[SnatchForFree]

Nice point you brought up, but this is just another case where

Spoiler

brawlsux.

I'm not sure if I entirely understand your position. It's not like suicides didn't exist in ssbm and ssb64. Kirby and DK could always do it. Or are you talking about the controller port thing? I agree that brawl should have used a dice roll to determine the winner instead of controller port.

 

[waks]

Except you forgot the part where Ganon's suicide has NO priorty and can be stopped with a well placed aerial, or you can simply insta-edgehog him and then roll, and he'll fall helplessly to his doom.

OR you can hit him from above, say, with a SPIKE, and he'll die. It's easy as **** to get around, you just need to not be stupid and get grabbed by it, and if you are stupid, you should lose for playing like a moron. Simple as that.

But I mean, you shouldn't need to have KNOWLEDGE in order to place well at tournaments. OH WAIT, THAT'S ********.

Seriously, none of the suicide moves are even remotely broken, like at all.

Yeah I suppose so. I just replied on impulse and never really gave any much thought on my post.

So yeah, its either suicider wins, or have 1 stock matches till somebody gets a normal kill.

 

[YagamiLight]

hmm i never thought of this. something should be done.

I vote for the pokemon explosion/selfdestruct clause.

I wouldn't do that. In Pokemon, you really didn't have much control whether or not the last poke has explosion. Here you do: Don't fall for the suicide.

 

[Meat Truck]

A rule needs to be put in place that awards a standard win or loss to the suicidER, without a 1 stock match afterwards. What if someone is losing to gannon, and happens to knock him off, but they're at like 120% and he's at like 15, and he uses the grab to get the ledge, and they hop into harm's way for the sake of getting a fresh crack at gannon via a new 1 stock match? That's not really indicitave of who was going to win in the first place. Probably not your most common scenario, but anyone with half a brain could easly small hop off the stage near the ledge safely or even stand on the ledge, as sometimes he'll just grab you anyway unless he's perfectly aimed at the ledge.

 

[Doctor X]

I agree. Most suicide tactics in this game are easy to avoid or escapable. Besides, they're interesting, and giving the match to the victim makes them less viable, therefore making the game less interesting.

 

[ShadowLink84]

???
I thought it was determined by damage comparison.

 

[Sliq]

???
I thought it was determined by damage comparison.

If the time runs out they use percent. In Melee, they went by what the game said, but in Melee not so many characters had suicide moves. Furthermore, their suicide moves were size dependent, so if you knew who it would and would not work against, you could choose to use it or not (I'm mainly speaking of Kirby).

In Brawl, at least Bowser and Ganon's are both determined by port in a seemingly arbitrary manner. I'm not sure about Kirby, DeDeDe's, Wario's, or DK's (albeit you should be able to break out way before you can't make it back against DK). There was port bias in Melee, but not with something this big.

Furthermore, if Bowser is a lower port and over b's someone, the opponent has more DI control over where the suplex goes, so in theory they could guide it over the edge, forcing bowser into SD against the will of the player, making one of the moves that makes Bowser remotely playable completely unusable.

 

[RazeveX]

OH MY F***ING GOD SLIQ MADE A SERIOUS POST

sorry, this is a momentous occasion for me.

 

[Hyrus]

I vote for suiciding character wins by default.

The controller port thing, I think, is just more general evidence that something is seriously demented about how the game is coded. They couldn't have purposely put that in - a randomized outcome would have at least demonstrated coherent effort.

But as far as gameplay is concerned, suicide tactics are either hard to pull off or on characters who suck so hard that they practically deserve it. If people look the other way for Chain Grabs and Infinites, I don't see why they can't look past the misguided victory screen, past the Pop Tart Hoss slouched over a keyboard during one of Brawls delayed periods, and give the suicide KOer the victory.

But if people are going to spew the Sir PathOfLeastResistence crap, chances are people won't get past the victory screen data and the inadequacies of the design.

 

[The_NZA]

Suiciding character wins makses the most sense. Especially in light of the bowswer thing where if it was any other way, the person would di bowsers suplex to kill bowser.

 

[2.72]

YES!!!! Yes, yes, yes! We need a rule like this.

I've seriously considered asking my school tournament director to implement this even if it doesn't become common practice. Thank you!

((I might be a little biased because I play Bowser on occasion. My friends already agreed to this, partly because they were annoyed that I always tried to get the lowest controller port.))

Another random note that came to my mind: do we know if DK's and Wario's suicides are random in who wins? Even if they appear to be, is it possible that the suicidee broke free just before they passed the KO boundary, producing a different outcome without much visual difference?

For the record, I think that we should never resort to Sudden Death to determine a match outcome. A 1-stock tiebreaker match is better than sudden death, but I think that in this case just giving the match to the suicider is better yet.

 

[Kailex]

I have really mixed view's on this, big time. I understand the fustration of a loss when you got the final move and took the character down with a risky move. Looking at it from only that perspective, I would definitely agree that people who use this techinque should get the automatic win.

But then again, I hope you realize that gannondorf's sucicde technique can be done while someone is standing on the stage edge-guarding gannon. Cause it's been done to me plenty of times and i've watched people doit online/offline.

Basically, your telling me, I rack up 150+ percent on gannondorf while I get 10% and im standing on the stage while he's flying back and forth, but since he can grab me while on the edge of the stage and take me down. You automatically win? Regardless of either perspective, that's a tough win not to fight out.

BTW- I already know "if you know that, dont stand near the edge" but don't give me that line, cause that means that gannon can never be edgeguarded ever cause god forbid if he lands a grab, he wins automatically. There has to be a sense of fairness to it. A one stock play out round after the sucicde sounds fair to me. In some circumstances.

 

[Sudai]

Kailex. Out range, out prioritize, spot dodge, or air dodge. No one says you have to stand at the edge and take it like a beyotch.

Really...if you die to a Ganon-side, you made a mistake that should, in all rights, cost you a life regardless of %. The move is so slow to come out, linear, and, as said before, very weak priority wise.

 

[Goofiestbee]

I agree that the suicidER should win the match because a few points have been made that it would completely unfair and out of the question if a 1stock match was held after to determine.
The opponent walked into the suicide, it's theyre fault, they should lose the match.

Thats like saying "Oops! I walked into Ike's forward smash at 300%!, redo! ^^"

I just don't see it fair..

 

[Amide]

Your right. The idiots that decided cotroller ports are important need to realize it's stupid. I hope this becomes recognized as a kill everywhere.

 

[Magus420]

As you probably know, in Brawl various characters have various suicide tactics which takes the opponent down with them. As you may or may not know, who dies first is dependent on controller port. For example, if I suicide grab someone with Ganon's over b, if I am the higher controller port it goes to sudden death. HOWEVER, if Ganon is a lower controller port than his opponent, Ganon loses.

I was always under the understanding that it only looks towards controller priority in a sudden death round, and when both players die on the same exact frame. Otherwise, the reason you sometimes get sudden death and sometimes lose/win is because it works something like this:

I would think it's just that Ganon is slightly below the character he's holding, and so with the speed at which they travel downward they sometimes both cross into the blastzone on the same frame and sometimes Ganon crosses it with the other still slightly above it.

In other words, the distance they travel downward per frame is greater than the distance between them, so it is possible to have them both be above it one frame then both past it the next. It is also possible that the distance only makes Ganon cross it with the other still above it, with the blastline between the two of them.

Here's a picture to help explain what I mean. The red like is the blastline at the bottom of the stage.

 

[Sliq]

I was always under the understanding that it only looks towards controller priority in a sudden death round, and when both players die on the same exact frame. Otherwise, the reason you sometimes get sudden death and sometimes lose/win is because it works something like this:

I'll test this and see if changing controller ports affects the win lose ratio, assuming what you have posted is correct.

 

[Corner-Trap]

How bout we just go by what the game system already has programmed? If you know you suicide tactic will end up in you dieing first then just simply don't do it.

 

[Chaotic Yoshi]

There are other port issues in the game, one of them regarding snake and his explosives though I can't find the thread about it. One of the proposed solutions was to rock/paper/scissors for a port (during blind picks), and loser choses port for next match. During doubles it was something like ports 1(red team), 2(blue team), 3(red team), 4(blue team). And vice versa.

 

[Jon64]

I honestly would not like to believe any of the stuff about the game being decided by the controller port. I'd like to think that what Magus posted is right: There is nothing to do with controller port in the gannoncide and similar attacks, at least, it should be that way.

Regardless, I'd have to say the only thing ******** about this whole issue would be giving the suicider a free win before we even know how the whole thing works.

 

[Sliq]

I'm almost 100% certain that Bowser's suicide grab is port dependent. If Ganon's isn't, then I'm fine with game out come, as I should be able to use my knowledge to gauge whether or not a suicide will be successful in forcind SD as opposed to losing me the round.

Does anyone know how Wario, Kirby, and MK's works? I assume Wario always dies first, so his probably should be decided by the game as their is no arbitrary port system deciding whether or not he loses, goes to SD, or wins. Plus I doubt many people use his neutral b for recovery...

Kirby and Dedede's I assume are based on characters size, just like how it was in Melee, in which case the game deciding the outcome is also acceptable, considering you should know who it does and does not work against (unless certain characters of similar size to Kirby force different outcomes dependent on controller port, in which case the port shouldn't decide the match, but once again, I'm not familiar with Dedede and Kirby's inhale suicide mechanic).

Bowser's is trickier, as I mentioned early, your opponent can DI you off the stage and force a sudden death.

It's seeming as if this is less of a big deal if only one character is affected by it, as opposed to 4 or 5. =/

I'll test Ganon's over b. Man, Sakurai is ********. Controller port deciding **** like this? For real?

Meh, even if Ganon's over b is port dependent, I don't know if 2 characters are enough to warrant a rule change this drastic (assuming the others have set reasoning). I'm just a fan of punishing a moron for being a moron and getting caught in something easily avoidable.

 

[Magus420]

If controller port decided Ganonciding you would get consistent results, unlike what was found in this thread which is where I originally made that post.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156010

Disregarding the original intention of the thread suggesting that you can 'DI' the Fwd-B, he got mixed results under the same game conditions, with a variable (which was unintended) being where on the stage the Fwd-B connected. Those results follow my explanation rather well.

Other than in sudden death, where controller port most surely DOES decide the winner in the event of a tie, what evidence is there that supports the idea that controller port decides the outcome of a normal match? Where exactly could it fit in, if matches still can tie and go into sudden death? If you lose then you died at least one frame before the other character did, and if you happened to die on the same frame then it goes into sudden death.

If you're in sudden death using a character with a suicide move that can only result in either a tie or you dying first, you DON'T want to use it at all if you are the lower priority/higher numbered controller port, because you will always lose since a tie would go to the other player and you also would lose if you die 1st obviously. If you are the higher priority/lower numbered port, however, you would win if you both die on the same frame since ties in SD go to controller port priority, but you will still lose if you happen to cross the blastline before they do (again, duh).

As we all know you can use an Aerial Flame Choke (Side B) to Ganoncide an opponent off the edge. Reports on the effect of this, however, seem a little varied. On some occasions, Ganon will die first, on others there will be a sudden death, and with the influence of the environment (water, lava) other things occur.

With this idea in mind I attempted to make a little science.


(Please take the following with a grain of salt, after several trials (20+), it seems that Ganoncide to Sudden Death may still be a completely random occurence.)

What I have done is set stocks to 1, went to Final Destination, and tried my hand at Ganonciding.

I've tried this with three characters so far, Mario, King Dedede, and Jigglypuff, attempting to capture 3 mileposts of the weight spectrum in one go. Both the target and Ganon had no damage at each attempt, and the target did not attempt to DI (as I simply use another controller to force them to jump for the Ganoncide). I had them stand right on the edge, and jump, as I approached with the aerial flame choke from the stage.

Tried it on Fox, Shiek, Wolf, Pit, and Metaknight now, with same conditions as mentioned above.

I was able to do it fairly easily on Fox and Shiek, but had some difficulties with Wolf, Pit and Metaknight. With Wolf and Pit it seemed rather random, I got one Sudden Death to go, but then on the next attempt Ganondorf died first.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Most suicides, are performed by lower tier characters, giving them a bit more advantage, making them more playable. I think whoever suicides, should win.

 

[Jewdo]

**edit: I've done some thinking and I'm not sure what I think the tourney rule "should" be anymore. "Game determines winner," "% determines winner," and "suiciding player wins" all have good arguments. I suppose the tourney host should make the decision for now, but that's not to say I won't support a standard when it emerges.

As for how Brawl determines the "winner" in a suicide:

Kirby/DeDeDe - no controller port advantage. Both players always die simultaneously. If this is done in Sudden Death, the Inhale's victim is counted as the loser.
Wario/DK - no controller port advantage. Wario/DK always dies first.
Bowser - If Bowser is P1 and victim is P2, Bowser wins. If Bowser is P2 and victim is P1, Sudden Death.
Ganondorf - No controller port advantage. Both players die simultaneously. However, for reasons undetermined, Ganon will occasionally die first.

 

[Foxy_Marth]

Keep it simple. The one who uses the move wins.

 

[2.72]

Bowser (and maybe Ganon) seem like the only two cases that require a special rule. I assume that, in Bowser's case, this is an error. I can't find the quote, but I remember the Dojo saying that Bowser dies last if he suicides.

Random note: Diddy also has a suicide attack (his side-b), but this is a non-issue because Diddy should always jump off to make sure that he gets the KO.

 

[Sosuke]

YEah the whole luck thing pisses me off

 

[Earthbound360]

Hmmm. that does sound reasonabl. i mean, that is retarted how the controller port decides winners. Ganoncide (or any sudden death suicide) should be replyed in a one on one sudden death match.

 

[Problem2]

The effectiveness of this resistance depends on the damage gauge. The less damage the opponent has, the stronger he or she will be able to resist.

Likewise, Bowser will find it harder to control his enemy if he has taken a lot of damage.

Taken from the Dojo site. I know that the port could determine things in Melee, but I haven't seen any evidence that determines outcomes in Brawl, and that includes Bowser's forward-B that everyone is saying is controller dependent.

 

[Ekaru]

Taken from the Dojo site. I know that the port could determine things in Melee, but I haven't seen any evidence that determines outcomes in Brawl, and that includes Bowser's forward-B that everyone is saying is controller dependent.

Whenever I'm in slot 2 and am bowswercided by slot 1, The bowser wins. When I'm in slot 1, it's a... Sudden Death. =P So... yeah. I was thinking for a loooooooooooooong time that a rule should be enforced about this ultimate gayness (and the gayness of the randomness of Gannondorf's sideB).

I agree with the 'person who performed suicide move wins' in the two side B cases for sure. Oh, and before you go 'but what if they're at 10% and you're at 100%?', it rarely happens that way. if the Ganon player starts spamming sideBs in an attempt for an easy win, it's so predictable and easy to dodge. It takes skill to land a gannonban. and if you're not cautious and run blindly off the edge into the gannonban or stand right at the edge... your fault. Besides, you can still edgeguard ganon without risking getting gannonban'd. But if you can't figure it out on your own, I won't bother, because it's late.

tl;dr: Basically, I vote for the 'suicider should win if it's Bowser or Gannon'. Bowser's case: it would be decided upon controller port. Dumb, AND the person getting bowsercided has more control over the bowser player if he's at an advantegous percent. Gannondorf's case: it's random SD or loss, and it's effing hard to hit with... assuming the opponent has a brain. 'nuff said.

 

[popsofctown]

My opinion is that suicider=lose, suicider=one-stock, suicider=win, and suicider=coin flip, are all equally fair, competitive options.

Therefore, it is best to select whichever option is best for the game of Brawl.

IMO, the choice that is best for the game of Brawl is suicider=win. Since there is an opportunity to (very slightly) flatten character imbalances here, we should. The suiciders I know of are Kirby, Dedede, Ganondorf, and Bowser. The top tier characters are Meta Knight and Snake. (Dedede could possibly end up up there, but his suicide kill isn't that great or unavoidable)

Therefore, we can pull those weaker characters up and even tiers if we choos suicider=win.