Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[ShadowGuy1]

i hope we get dlc out tommorow and we can continue this tier list!!!

 

[Paxadin]

Hold on guys, I'm busy being a "rebel".
+
She really isn't the worst.
Easy punish with up-b kills extremely early.
Easily gimps characters with d-air or b-reversed phantom.
Has a reflect
Jab on a shield is guaranteed to hit unless not spaced properly against Mac (1 frame reaction time between jabs because of shieldstun)
Up-tilt x3 "Mario-esque jank" into n-air into sweetspot f-air with poor DI.
Down-throw up air (doesn't work online), down throw n-air f-air/b-air.
Her poke is d-tilt with decent frames.
Din's fire can force people to air-dodge, you have to time it so they air-dodge into the ground for landing lag.
Excellent recovery.
Phantom works as a meat shield and holds people off, and actually works more to pressure with b-reverse than people think. Keep close to the phantom and people won't be so quick to break it.
Up-b to punish slow projectiles or predicted projectiles or even to act as a sort of "spot dodge" that hits people or even kills.
Forward smash and up-smash all kill at around 100% no rage.
Up-tilt into f-air near 40-60%.
A few more things and more to come with development.

Anyways. there isn't really a "worst" or "best" in the game since all of bottom tier and all of top tier are pretty near each other in power.

 

[Deleted member]

Hold on guys, I'm busy being a "rebel".
+
She really isn't the worst.
Easy punish with up-b kills extremely early.
Easily gimps characters with d-air or b-reversed phantom.
Has a reflect
Jab on a shield is guaranteed to hit unless not spaced properly against Mac (1 frame reaction time between jabs because of shieldstun)
Up-tilt x3 "Mario-esque jank" into n-air into sweetspot f-air with poor DI.
Down-throw up air (doesn't work online), down throw n-air f-air/b-air.
Her poke is d-tilt with decent frames.
Din's fire can force people to air-dodge, you have to time it so they air-dodge into the ground for landing lag.
Excellent recovery.
Phantom works as a meat shield and holds people off, and actually works more to pressure with b-reverse than people think. Keep close to the phantom and people won't be so quick to break it.
Up-b to punish slow projectiles or predicted projectiles or even to act as a sort of "spot dodge" that hits people or even kills.
Forward smash and up-smash all kill at around 100% no rage.
Up-tilt into f-air near 40-60%.
A few more things and more to come with development.

Anyways. there isn't really a "worst" or "best" in the game since all of bottom tier and all of top tier are pretty near each other in power.

I disagree with a good amount of things you said. I agree about up tilt strings and her dtilt being a good poke being some decent attributes for her along with her smashes having good kill power, but otherwise I have some things to say.

• "Easy punish with up-b" People know how to use the and buttons, lol. Not to mention that if she misses and she's left in a freefall state in midair, she's free to be punished.
• "Can gimp characters with dair or b-reversed phantom" Not if they're someone who has a practically ungimpable recovery like Sheik, Dedede, Pikachu, Meta Knight or Kirby. A good amount of the cast has good recoveries, you're only gonna have luck gimping someone like Mario, Ganon, Falcon or Mac.
• "Has a reflector" Too bad it's laggy and can be easily telegraphed then punished afterwards.
• "Dthrow into uair" Face anybody who knows what DI is and this won't work. I'd even know by fighting others in locals using Zelda in friendlies.
• "Phantom works as a meat shield" Like neutral-B, it can be seen coming from a mile away and in general this move just gets shut down hard by anybody with a reflector. Smart players won't even try to break the phantom, just jump over it or not fall into a ploy for pressure.
• "Up-b to punish slow-projectiles or kill people" Again, and buttons. The startup for Farore's Wind is so obvious that you'd be foolish to not shield or jump away from it as soon as you hear the sound effect.
• "Up air into forward air at 40-60%" That's not guaranteed. Considering how awfully minuscule the sweetspot for Lightning Kick is it's a challenge to even to hit this combo successfully most of the time.

 

[Paxadin]

I disagree with a good amount of things you said. I agree about up tilt strings and her dtilt being a good poke being some decent attributes for her along with her smashes having good kill power, but otherwise I have some things to say.

• "Easy punish with up-b" People know how to use the and buttons, lol. Not to mention that if she misses and she's left in a freefall state in midair, she's free to be punished.
• "Can gimp characters with dair or b-reversed phantom" Not if they're someone who has a practically ungimpable recovery like Sheik, Dedede, Pikachu, Meta Knight or Kirby. A good amount of the cast has good recoveries, you're only gonna have luck gimping someone like Mario, Ganon, Falcon or Mac.
• "Has a reflector" Too bad it's laggy and can be easily telegraphed then punished afterwards.
• "Dthrow into uair" Face anybody who knows what DI is and this won't work. I'd even know by fighting others in locals using Zelda in friendlies.
• "Phantom works as a meat shield" Like neutral-B, it can be seen coming from a mile away and in general this move just gets shut down hard by anybody with a reflector. Smart players won't even try to break the phantom, just jump over it or not fall into a ploy for pressure.
• "Up-b to punish slow-projectiles or kill people" Again, and buttons. The startup for Farore's Wind is so obvious that you'd be foolish to not shield or jump away from it as soon as you hear the sound effect.
• "Up air into forward air at 40-60%" That's not guaranteed. Considering how awfully minuscule the sweetspot for Lightning Kick is it's a challenge to even to hit this combo successfully most of the time.

• You say this like I'd be dumb enough to use it while you can block, ofcourse I'm going to wait for you to make a mistake, like almost every kill in smash 4.
• Sheik gets gimped if hit with D-air. Dedede gets stopped by b-reveresed phantom because it acts as a wall. Pikachu also. Meta Knight can get gimped with d-air since Zelda can go very low. And Kirby, is this a joke? Kirby's recovery is utter crap. It's predictable, it's always vertical, you just need to d-air him to oblivion and he won't be able to do anything.
• it's still a reflector and it's not like you'll be able to punish it if I'm using it to reflect a projectile
• it's called mix ups.
• Easier said than done, if you start getting predictable with your jumps i'll just block you out and using a reflector against the phantom is all good, but you say it like I'm going to use it when you know i'm throwing it out.
• My first point still applies to this one, I'm going to use it when I know you can't react on time, which isn't really hard.
• you changed my words on this one, but yes it's hard, but the sweetspot isn't that hard on that move since it places the person just perfect.

You have to keep in mind that if you main Zelda, you'll have an easier time placing kicks (think of C.Falcon).
And also that while using Zelda, you have to be smart and know when you use her laggy moves, frame data isn't everything.
Having fast frames is all fine and dandy, but playing smart is what will win you the match.

 

[Rinku リンク]

I disagree with a good amount of things you said. I agree about up tilt strings and her dtilt being a good poke being some decent attributes for her along with her smashes having good kill power, but otherwise I have some things to say.

• "Easy punish with up-b" People know how to use the and buttons, lol. Not to mention that if she misses and she's left in a freefall state in midair, she's free to be punished.
• "Can gimp characters with dair or b-reversed phantom" Not if they're someone who has a practically ungimpable recovery like Sheik, Dedede, Pikachu, Meta Knight or Kirby. A good amount of the cast has good recoveries, you're only gonna have luck gimping someone like Mario, Ganon, Falcon or Mac.
• "Has a reflector" Too bad it's laggy and can be easily telegraphed then punished afterwards.
• "Dthrow into uair" Face anybody who knows what DI is and this won't work. I'd even know by fighting others in locals using Zelda in friendlies.
• "Phantom works as a meat shield" Like neutral-B, it can be seen coming from a mile away and in general this move just gets shut down hard by anybody with a reflector. Smart players won't even try to break the phantom, just jump over it or not fall into a ploy for pressure.
• "Up-b to punish slow-projectiles or kill people" Again, and buttons. The startup for Farore's Wind is so obvious that you'd be foolish to not shield or jump away from it as soon as you hear the sound effect.
• "Up air into forward air at 40-60%" That's not guaranteed. Considering how awfully minuscule the sweetspot for Lightning Kick is it's a challenge to even to hit this combo successfully most of the time.

Sorry Feels I have to disagree with you on this one. is also a character you could argue that you could technically shield everything he does since none of his moves are faster than Frame 7.

His grab is a tether as well so it can be easily spot dodged and avoided. Does that make him a bad character ? I'm sure you already know the answer to that so I won't elaborate any further.

Like Paxadin stated already frame data isn't everything, it's using your wits and tools to outsmart your opponent to win the fight which is what really counts in my opinion.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Hold on guys, I'm busy being a "rebel".
+
She really isn't the worst.
Easy punish with up-b kills extremely early.
Easily gimps characters with d-air or b-reversed phantom.
Has a reflect
Jab on a shield is guaranteed to hit unless not spaced properly against Mac (1 frame reaction time between jabs because of shieldstun)
Up-tilt x3 "Mario-esque jank" into n-air into sweetspot f-air with poor DI.
Down-throw up air (doesn't work online), down throw n-air f-air/b-air.
Her poke is d-tilt with decent frames.
Din's fire can force people to air-dodge, you have to time it so they air-dodge into the ground for landing lag.
Excellent recovery.
Phantom works as a meat shield and holds people off, and actually works more to pressure with b-reverse than people think. Keep close to the phantom and people won't be so quick to break it.
Up-b to punish slow projectiles or predicted projectiles or even to act as a sort of "spot dodge" that hits people or even kills.
Forward smash and up-smash all kill at around 100% no rage.
Up-tilt into f-air near 40-60%.
A few more things and more to come with development.

Anyways. there isn't really a "worst" or "best" in the game since all of bottom tier and all of top tier are pretty near each other in power.

I acknowledge some of the points you're bringing up, but I feel like a lot of the weaknesses that make Zelda a bad character to begin with aren't mentioned. Farore's Wind is a good punish, but every time you use it you're taking a HUGE risk. More likely than not it'll result in a loss of stock if you miss. Din's Fire can bait out an air-dodge, but it's pointless if it has too much ending lag for you to punish it (which is a shame, because this otherwise useless move could have had potential). And while her aerials are capable of killing early when sweetspotted, the trade off is a dysfunctional set of aerials in terms of dealing damage. Everything else is great and all, like her basically ungimpable recovery, but most of her moveset isn't strong enough to make use of these tools.

It's honestly a mystery why she doesn't get buffs. Her character design is literally a "good reward, SUPER HIGH RISK" situation.

And yes, I'm well aware frame data isn't everything, otherwise Falco would be top tier (pls Sakurai). The problem lies in her moves either requiring an unfavorable gamble when used or just plain not working

 

[Paxadin]

I acknowledge some of the points you're bringing up, but I feel like a lot of the weaknesses that make Zelda a bad character to begin with aren't mentioned. Farore's Wind is a good punish, but every time you use it you're taking a HUGE risk. More likely than not it'll result in a loss of stock if you miss. Din's Fire can bait out an air-dodge, but it's pointless if it has too much ending lag for you to punish it (which is a shame, because this otherwise useless move could have had potential). And while her aerials are capable of killing early when sweetspotted, the trade off is a dysfunctional set of aerials in terms of dealing damage. Everything else is great and all, like her basically ungimpable recovery, but most of her moveset isn't strong enough to make use of these tools.

It's honestly a mystery why she doesn't get buffs. Her character design is literally a "good reward, SUPER HIGH RISK" situation.

And yes, I'm well aware frame data isn't everything, otherwise Falco would be top tier (pls Sakurai). The problem lies in her moves either requiring an unfavorable gamble when used or just plain not working

Which is all fine since we're not fighting for her to be top tier, but fighting for her to not be the worst in the game.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay, I guess I can concede she's not the absolute worst character in the game due to what she can do at times, but she's still definitely bottom 5 to me. If anything I think 1111 is the worst character in the game but I've explained many times why in the past so I won't repeat myself.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Okay, I guess I can concede she's not the absolute worst character in the game due to what she can do at times, but she's still definitely bottom 5 to me. If anything I think 1111 is the worst character in the game but I've explained many times why in the past so I won't repeat myself.

Why would you say 1111 is the worst character in the game? I'm not disagreeing with you, I have never seen you explain why before, and am curious to see why you feel this. Personally, I'd still say it's a toss up between , , and .

 

[Deleted member]

Why would you say 1111 is the worst character in the game? I'm not disagreeing with you, I have never seen you explain why before, and am curious to see why you feel this. Personally, I'd still say it's a toss up between , , and .

Laggy Smash attacks, most specials for it having little to no utility and a recovery that'd make Little Mac laugh his arse off.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Laggy Smash attacks, most specials for it having little to no utility and a recovery that'd make Little Mac jealous.

Top on the fact that the medium mii doesn't have nearly as much potential for combos as the smaller mii and you get yourself a really odd character. I don't think he's deal last, but I agree he is pretty bad.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sakurai retweeted about the Nintendo Direct... hyping intensifies...

https://twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/664732060976746497

 

[Wintermelon43]

Hold on guys, I'm busy being a "rebel".
+

Who are you,the Mockingtriforce?

 

[aεrgiα]

Top on the fact that the medium mii doesn't have nearly as much potential for combos as the smaller mii and you get yourself a really odd character. I don't think he's deal last, but I agree he is pretty bad.

then what does he have over any other character? his combo game as medium size is meh, his throw game and shield pressure is bad, aka just shield and he cant do anything to you, his recovery is abysmal, he cant kill at all(only aerial that can kill at reasonable % is dair off stage, and good luck with landing that) only having his laggy smashes and that really bad raptor boost imitation... please do tell me if im missing something, but i dont see brawler having any redeeming qualities :/ which is sad, i love the vampire outfit mii brawler has

 

[Bowserboy3]

then what does he have over any other character? his combo game as medium size is meh, his throw game and shield pressure is bad, aka just shield and he cant do anything to you, his recovery is abysmal, he cant kill at all(only aerial that can kill at reasonable % is dair off stage, and good luck with landing that) only having his laggy smashes and that really bad raptor boost imitation... please do tell me if im missing something, but i dont see brawler having any redeeming qualities :/ which is sad, i love the vampire outfit mii brawler has

Like I said before, my current stance is that last position is a toss up between , , , and . I think it could be any one of these, they are all equally "meh" to me.

 

[aεrgiα]

Like I said before, my current stance is that last position is a toss up between , , , and . I think it could be any one of these, they are all equally "meh" to me.

thats perfectly fine, i just wanted to elaborate on what feelicks said, because while what he said was 100% true and those are the his biggest issues, i just wanted to go into a bit more detail on why that makes him (imo of course) the worst char in the game, i didnt mean to be "agressive"/attack your opinion or anything like that, so im sorry if it came across like that

 

[Bowserboy3]

thats perfectly fine, i just wanted to elaborate on what feelicks said, because while what he said was 100% true and those are the his biggest issues, i just wanted to go into a bit more detail on why that makes him (imo of course) the worst char in the game, i didnt mean to be "agressive"/attack your opinion or anything like that, so im sorry if it came across like that

Oh don't worry, it never came across as aggressive. I suppose the one of the Mii Brawler's redeeming qualities is that he doesn't get combo'd as much as the others. He isn't huge, nor floaty or heavy, and he does have a couple of good aerials for landing, as well as a Nair that comes out on frame 3, like Mario's in that respect, so this gives him a combo breaking option.

 

[Deleted member]

As much as I think Palutena isn't really that good, she at least has some good results to her credit. @RedCap-BlueSpikes can easily tell you what her players have done, he's already one of the if not the best Palutena player I've come across. That, and her aerials are legitimately great (fair and bair wouldn't be out of place on a high tier character, not to mention she can combo into up air and down air is relatively quick while having no sourspot), she's just offset by a poor set of specials and awfully slow smashes and tilts. Her frame data is ludicrously poor for a lightweight, which is one of her biggest issues imo.

 

[Xandercosm]

I, honestly, can't understand why you defend Samus so much, Bowserboy3 . She, in my opinion, is even worse than Zelda. At least Zelda has a decent recovery that can kill at early percents. Samus has nothing useful. She has a useless, weak, easy to dodge charge-shot that usually ends up hurting her more than her opponent. She has incredibly few favorable matchups. Like, none. Half her specials are garbage that should never be used. She has an awful disadvantage state, which is made worse buy having probably the single most linear recovery in the game. And then there's the fact that half the time her attacks go right through opponents for no reason. Should I continue?

 

[Deleted member]

I, honestly, can't understand why you defend Samus so much, Bowserboy3 . She, in my opinion, is even worse than Zelda. At least Zelda has a decent recovery that can kill at early percents. Samus has nothing useful. She has a useless, weak, easy to dodge charge-shot that usually ends up hurting her more than her opponent. She has incredibly few favorable matchups. Like, none. Half her specials are garbage that should never be used. She has an awful disadvantage state, which is made worse buy having probably the single most linear recovery in the game. And then there's the fact that half the time her attacks go right through opponents for no reason. Should I continue?

Have you not read all of Bowserboy3 and @Vyrnx's posts from the past several pages that have in great detail explained why Samus isn't as bad as you're making her out to be? As I said before too, ESAM, Depth and even Johnny Westside have done decently with her as well. It's not even like Nairo using Zelda in tournies and getting reward off her, if anything that was a case of taking advantage of people's severe lack of MU experience with Zelda. There's a reason he never takes her to bigger tournaments because he knows he'd get destroyed using her.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I wouldn't say default is bottom tier. She's still got viable combos, a decent projectile, a reflector and a counter, and great range. She is low, but not at the bottom.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Sakurai retweeted about the Nintendo Direct... hyping intensifies...

https://twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/664732060976746497

Great, I just have to go to school today don't I? Now I might miss a new character or patch(or even stage...or WWE 2k16 for Wii U)

 

[aεrgiα]

I, honestly, can't understand why you defend Samus so much, Bowserboy3 . She, in my opinion, is even worse than Zelda. At least Zelda has a decent recovery that can kill at early percents. Samus has nothing useful. She has a useless, weak, easy to dodge charge-shot that usually ends up hurting her more than her opponent. She has incredibly few favorable matchups. Like, none. Half her specials are garbage that should never be used. She has an awful disadvantage state, which is made worse buy having probably the single most linear recovery in the game. And then there's the fact that half the time her attacks go right through opponents for no reason. Should I continue?

well im no samus main, and i dont really play her much either but here goes:
1) her charge shot has its problems(cant charge it in the air, it takes a while to charge etc) but its not weak(this isnt gunner we're talking about) its not a tool u are meant to throw out in neutral much, maybe to catch someone off guard, but thats it, its useful for reads, tech chases, reading previous posts here its good at breaking shields and ive seen it used to edgeguard effectively too.
2) while i dont know samus' mu in detail theres a favorable one that comes to mind straight away: luigi, oh and id say d3 can have trouble with her too, i also dont see bowser charizard or ganon having a good time either for that matter.
3)the only really bad special imo is side b (these should seriously get the gunner missiles treatment, since the buff those are amazing) up b is a great oos option, charge shot is a good tool for killing, bombs are useful for shield break setups and mixing up her recovery.
4) her disadvantage state is bad, but shes definitely not alone in that regard and her recovery is linear yes, but she has bombs and tether to mix it up, its better than quite a few other recoveries i can think of right now without looking into it in detail.
5)her hitboxes are messed up yes, but a samus main should know how to use these weird hitboxes, its not like there are no hitboxes at all, they are just weird, nothing u cant get used to... samus does have issues but imo those are not the biggest :/

 

[.....]

I noticed that people were split on earlier on whether or not he should be ranked this high just because of only only major player.

If this is true, Pikachu should only be second on the Smash 64 tier list behind as Isai is basically the one who dominates everything with Pikachu, and shouldn't be Top 15 on the Melee and Brawl tier lists.

Not to be a genwunner but I think Pikachu is 2nd, 7th, 9th, and still holding 1st on the Smash 4, Brawl, Melee, and Smash 64 tier lists respectively.

 

[Equin0x]

+ I am adamant that Lucina should not be ANY further than one space away from Marth. I'm not sure if this is to bump them up one spot within their tier or to bump them up a tier, but either way she'd be closer to Marth, so I'm indifferent to that.

 

[.....]

-1

Pretty much one of the three outright bad characters in the game along with Palutena and King Dedede.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I wouldn't say default is bottom tier. She's still got viable combos, a decent projectile, a reflector and a counter, and great range. She is low, but not at the bottom.

She's also big and floaty, has laggy attacks and without Lightweight her combos are sparse. Her projectiles may be decent, but they aren't nearly as good as even 's Flamethrower and definitely not as versatile as /'s bombs and arrows. Her reflector isn't as good as / or /. She's basically an even taller with all of his flaws.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I noticed that people were split on earlier on whether or not he should be ranked this high just because of only only major player.

If this is true, Pikachu should only be second on the Smash 64 tier list behind as Isai is basically the one who dominates everything with Pikachu, and shouldn't be Top 15 on the Melee and Brawl tier lists.

Not to be a genwunner but I think Pikachu is 2nd, 7th, 9th, and still holding 1st on the Smash 4, Brawl, Melee, and Smash 64 tier lists respectively.

Let's not go that far

 

[aεrgiα]

As much as I think Palutena isn't really that good, she at least has some good results to her credit. @RedCap-BlueSpikes can easily tell you what her players have done, he's already one of the if not the best Palutena player I've come across. That, and her aerials are legitimately great (fair and bair wouldn't be out of place on a high tier character, not to mention she can combo into up air and down air is relatively quick while having no sourspot), she's just offset by a poor set of specials and awfully slow smashes and tilts. Her frame data is ludicrously poor for a lightweight, which is one of her biggest issues imo.

i agree mostly with this, although i dont think her specials are that bad, just nothing amazing(and her counter is garbage ), the issue imo is her ground game, her aerials as you've said are amazing imo, her fair is safe on shield if spaced properly and her bair is invincible while being able to kill and being reasonably fast. i would hope i dont have to explain why her uair is good, her nair is a decent combo tool and dair is a decent spike, and ive seen it(rarely) used as a mix up/cross up, its imo her worst aerial but it isnt bad imo. her tilts are arguably the worst tilts in the game, the only one thats at least decent imo is utilt which is a great anti-air and is pretty underappreciated imo. except usmash, her smashes are also sub par :/

but i think with a few minor/ tiny tweaks she could actually become a pretty decent character. most obvious would ofc be fixing her smashes and tilts, but since thats a lot of pretty extremee changes ill suggest something simple instead.
make her dthrow combo better, if di'ing away didnt remove all follow ups except for fair, i think she would be a pretty decent mid tier character, she would have damaging combos off of throws, and she wouldnt rely on reads to close out stocks either(dthrow to uair being true would help a ton!). cmon sakurai, JUST DO IT!!! this is YOUR character,dont give her love only when it comes to customs, just give her the tiny tweaks she needs

 

[Bowserboy3]

I, honestly, can't understand why you defend Samus so much, Bowserboy3 . She, in my opinion, is even worse than Zelda. At least Zelda has a decent recovery that can kill at early percents. Samus has nothing useful. She has a useless, weak, easy to dodge charge-shot that usually ends up hurting her more than her opponent. She has incredibly few favorable matchups. Like, none. Half her specials are garbage that should never be used. She has an awful disadvantage state, which is made worse buy having probably the single most linear recovery in the game. And then there's the fact that half the time her attacks go right through opponents for no reason. Should I continue?

This is such a poor argument. Tip: before you state that a character is bad, actually learn the character, understand the character. Of course if you somehow say you do know Samus, then you are clearly playing her wrong. Most everything you have said in this is wrong.

To start, Charge Shot is definitely not weak, and most certainly not useless. Samus doesn't have the same Charge Shot as the Mii Gunner you know (which if I am honest, am surprised they haven't buffed up yet). Samus's version has much more knockback and shield damage. Though it is one of her best killing options, it's arguably her best option for shield breaks, which I might add she has at least two TRUE shield breaks. Super Missile into Charge Shot and Bomb into Charge Shot will break a shield, end of. This alone is great, but when Samus also has the ability to walk with the opponent to the edge of the stage, plant a bomb next to them to push them off stage, and spike them, it only makes it that much more threatening.

This brings me to another point, her specials, which do indeed all have a use. Missiles are arguably better than Super Missiles, as they can be used to force reactions. If the opponent tries to jump over one in neutral, that is an easy Up Tilt, Up Smash, Zair, Fair for Samus. If they shield, it just gives Samus more options to play with. Does she keep up the Missiles? Perhaps a Super Missile into Charge Shot? Maybe a Grab to start a combo off? Screw Attack other than her main recovery move, can kill, and can be combo'd into at many percents. Bombs, as mentioned before, aside from being for shield breaks and punishing a broken shield, are used for recovery, which again brings me to another point. How can you call a character with good aerial mobility, Bombs to improve recovery, a wall jump, a Zair, and an Up B with a hitbox sombody with linear recovery? Samus has plenty of options for recovery. Tie this in with Samus's high weight, and she lives longer than most of the cast.

It's also worth bringing up Samus's combo game. She has some of the highest damaging true combos in the game, with different ways to start them. For example, she can do Dthrow into Uair, Jump Uair, finished with a Screw Attack. This does 41%, and it is a TRUE COMBO. Alternatively, she can start the combo off with Dash Attack. Oh wait inb4 "dash attacks hitbox sucks, it doesn't hit close range". Not being funny, but that is no problem at all. If the opponent is close to you, you want to be doing a quick option to get them off of you, so you would not use Dash Attack at that range when Dtilt and Dsmash are quicker. Back to combos, again, Dthrow, Uair, Bair, Reverse Charge Shot has the potential to do 56% damage (I say potential, because that is considering you land the sweetspot Bair). Of course, her combo game is only amplified on stages like Battlefield, where she can chain more Uairs together, then into a Screw Attack, which can even kill. Samus has no trouble with kills either. Utilt spike into Charge Shot is a kill confirm at 80+ percent near the edge. Samus also has a great edgeguard game, with Missiles to intercept recoveries, but it's great at forcing air dodges, as the opponent will try to avoid it, when Samus can punish with her Dair.

I want to finish on matchups as it's clear you have no idea what Samus's matchup spread is. Samus does indeed beat lots of the characters around her in her current placement on this list. For example, Ganon, Dedede, Jigglypuff, even Bowser struggles against Samus. Further up the list, she even beats certain high tier characters, who include DK, Peach, Ike, I think Kirby, and most infamously, Luigi. Samus has no truly losable matchups. She struggles in certain matchups against characters like Sheik, ZSS (let's be honest, most of the cast struggles with these), Sonic, Meta Knight and arguably Captain Falcon (but I disagree with the Falcon matchup, I think it can go either way), and characters with a reflector make her think twice about spamming Charge Shot (which she shouldn't be doing anyways, so this is never a real threat) but she has none that are instantly losable. To finish, I will mention her moves, as most of them do not miss at all. The only real culprit is Dash Attack, but I explained the situation on this already. Fsmash can miss on Jigglypuff, but it can be angled, so this is no issue.

Honestly, I can't decide whether you were just trolling with your initial post just to bait a reaction out of me, or whether you really don't know about Samus. Regardless, you asked for it, so here it is.

 

[Deleted member]

This is such a poor argument. Tip: before you state that a character is bad, actually learn the character, understand the character. Of course if you somehow say you do know Samus, then you are clearly playing her wrong. Most everything you have said in this is wrong. To start, Charge Shot is definitely not weak, and most certainly not useless. Samus doesn't have the same Charge Shot as the Mii Gunner you know (which if I am honest, am surprised they haven't buffed up yet). Samus's version has much more knockback and shield damage. Though it is one of her best killing options, it's arguably her best option for shield breaks, which I might add she has at least two TRUE shield breaks. Super Missile into Charge Shot and Bomb into Charge Shot will break a shield, end of. This alone is great, but when Samus also has the ability to walk with the opponent to the edge of the stage, plant a bomb next to them to push them off stage, and spike them, it only makes it that much more threatening. This brings me to another point, her specials, which do indeed all have a use. Missiles are arguably better than Super Missiles, as they can be used to force reactions. If the opponent tries to jump over one in neutral, that is an easy Up Tilt, Up Smash, Zair, Fair for Samus. If they shield, it just gives Samus more options to play with. Does she keep up the Missiles? Perhaps a Super Missile into Charge Shot? Maybe a Grab to start a combo off? Screw Attack other than her main recovery move, can kill, and can be combo'd into at many percents. Bombs, as mentioned before, aside from being for shield breaks and punishing a broken shield, are used for recovery, which again brings me to another point. How can you call a character with good aerial mobility, Bombs to improve recovery, a wall jump, a Zair, and an Up B with a hitbox sombody with linear recovery? Samus has plenty of options for recovery. Tie this in with Samus's high weight, and she lives longer than most of the cast. It's also worth bringing up Samus's combo game. She has some of the highest damaging true combos in the game, with different ways to start them. For example, she can do Dthrow into Uair, Jump Uair, finished with a Screw Attack. This does 41%, and it is a TRUE COMBO. Alternatively, she can start the combo off with Dash Attack. Oh wait inb4 "dash attacks hitbox sucks, it doesn't hit close range". Not being funny, but that is no problem at all. If the opponent is close to you, you want to be doing a quick option to get them off of you, so you would not use Dash Attack at that range when Dtilt and Dsmash are quicker. Back to combos, again, Dthrow, Uair, Bair, Reverse Charge Shot has the potential to do 56% damage (I say potential, because that is considering you land the sweetspot Bair). Of course, her combo game is only amplified on stages like Battlefield, where she can chain more Uairs together, then into a Screw Attack, which can even kill. Samus has no trouble with kills either. Utilt spike into Charge Shot is a kill confirm at 80+ percent near the edge. Samus also has a great edgeguard game, with Missiles to intercept recoveries, but it's great at forcing air dodges, as the opponent will try to avoid it, when Samus can punish with her Dair. I want to finish on matchups as it's clear you have no idea what Samus's matchup spread is. Samus does indeed beat lots of the characters around her in her current placement on this list. For example, Ganon, Dedede, Jigglypuff, even Bowser struggles against Samus. Further up the list, she even beats certain high tier characters, who include DK, Peach, Ike, I think Kirby, and most infamously, Luigi. Samus has no truly losable matchups. She struggles in certain matchups against characters like Sheik, ZSS (let's be honest, most of the cast struggles with these), Sonic, Meta Knight and arguably Captain Falcon (but I disagree with the Falcon matchup, I think it can go either way), and characters with a reflector make her think twice about spamming Charge Shot (which she shouldn't be doing anyways, so this is never a real threat) but she has none that are instantly losable. To finish, I will mention her moves, as most of them do not miss at all. The only real culprit is Dash Attack, but I explained the situation on this already. Fsmash can miss on Jigglypuff, but it can be angled, so this is no issue. Honestly, I can't decide whether you were just trolling with your initial post just to bait a reaction out of me, or whether you really don't know about Samus. Regardless, you asked for it, so here it is.

bruh as much as I agree with you, break up the post into paragraphs. It's kind of a long wall of text @-@

 

[Bowserboy3]

She's also big and floaty, has laggy attacks and without Lightweight her combos are sparse. Her projectiles may be decent, but they aren't nearly as good as even 's Flamethrower and definitely not as versatile as /'s bombs and arrows. Her reflector isn't as good as / or /. She's basically an even taller with all of his flaws.

WHERE DID YOU GET THAT K.ROOL ICON FROM IN YOUR SIGNATURE?! I MUST HAVE THIS MYSELF!

 

[Evello]

+1

Even with 1111, Mii Swordfighter is certainly not the 2nd worst character in the game, or even bottom tier for that matter. Has no one payed attention to the numerous endlag/power buffs he's gotten in recent patches? I'm not convinced he's some secret high tier or anything (maybe top of tier 6/bottom of 5), but he definitely performs better than his fellow bottom tiers. All the Miis are heavily underused thanks to inconsistent legality, but Swordfighter even has some tournament representation from Trela and I believe San. His frame data is solid for a swordsman, his grab/throw game is good, and he doesn't struggle too much with killing. He honestly is very reminiscent of Ike, which is a pretty good thing to say about a character at the moment.

 

[Xandercosm]

This is such a poor argument. Tip: before you state that a character is bad, actually learn the character, understand the character. Of course if you somehow say you do know Samus, then you are clearly playing her wrong. Most everything you have said in this is wrong.

To start, Charge Shot is definitely not weak, and most certainly not useless. Samus doesn't have the same Charge Shot as the Mii Gunner you know (which if I am honest, am surprised they haven't buffed up yet). Samus's version has much more knockback and shield damage. Though it is one of her best killing options, it's arguably her best option for shield breaks, which I might add she has at least two TRUE shield breaks. Super Missile into Charge Shot and Bomb into Charge Shot will break a shield, end of. This alone is great, but when Samus also has the ability to walk with the opponent to the edge of the stage, plant a bomb next to them to push them off stage, and spike them, it only makes it that much more threatening.

This brings me to another point, her specials, which do indeed all have a use. Missiles are arguably better than Super Missiles, as they can be used to force reactions. If the opponent tries to jump over one in neutral, that is an easy Up Tilt, Up Smash, Zair, Fair for Samus. If they shield, it just gives Samus more options to play with. Does she keep up the Missiles? Perhaps a Super Missile into Charge Shot? Maybe a Grab to start a combo off? Screw Attack other than her main recovery move, can kill, and can be combo'd into at many percents. Bombs, as mentioned before, aside from being for shield breaks and punishing a broken shield, are used for recovery, which again brings me to another point. How can you call a character with good aerial mobility, Bombs to improve recovery, a wall jump, a Zair, and an Up B with a hitbox sombody with linear recovery? Samus has plenty of options for recovery. Tie this in with Samus's high weight, and she lives longer than most of the cast.

It's also worth bringing up Samus's combo game. She has some of the highest damaging true combos in the game, with different ways to start them. For example, she can do Dthrow into Uair, Jump Uair, finished with a Screw Attack. This does 41%, and it is a TRUE COMBO. Alternatively, she can start the combo off with Dash Attack. Oh wait inb4 "dash attacks hitbox sucks, it doesn't hit close range". Not being funny, but that is no problem at all. If the opponent is close to you, you want to be doing a quick option to get them off of you, so you would not use Dash Attack at that range when Dtilt and Dsmash are quicker. Back to combos, again, Dthrow, Uair, Bair, Reverse Charge Shot has the potential to do 56% damage (I say potential, because that is considering you land the sweetspot Bair). Of course, her combo game is only amplified on stages like Battlefield, where she can chain more Uairs together, then into a Screw Attack, which can even kill. Samus has no trouble with kills either. Utilt spike into Charge Shot is a kill confirm at 80+ percent near the edge. Samus also has a great edgeguard game, with Missiles to intercept recoveries, but it's great at forcing air dodges, as the opponent will try to avoid it, when Samus can punish with her Dair.

I want to finish on matchups as it's clear you have no idea what Samus's matchup spread is. Samus does indeed beat lots of the characters around her in her current placement on this list. For example, Ganon, Dedede, Jigglypuff, even Bowser struggles against Samus. Further up the list, she even beats certain high tier characters, who include DK, Peach, Ike, I think Kirby, and most infamously, Luigi. Samus has no truly losable matchups. She struggles in certain matchups against characters like Sheik, ZSS (let's be honest, most of the cast struggles with these), Sonic, Meta Knight and arguably Captain Falcon (but I disagree with the Falcon matchup, I think it can go either way), and characters with a reflector make her think twice about spamming Charge Shot (which she shouldn't be doing anyways, so this is never a real threat) but she has none that are instantly losable. To finish, I will mention her moves, as most of them do not miss at all. The only real culprit is Dash Attack, but I explained the situation on this already. Fsmash can miss on Jigglypuff, but it can be angled, so this is no issue.

Honestly, I can't decide whether you were just trolling with your initial post just to bait a reaction out of me, or whether you really don't know about Samus. Regardless, you asked for it, so here it is.

That rage tho. Anyway, people aren't trolling when they have a different opinion than you. Maybe some day when you're a big boy you'll learn about that. For now, try to cut down on the tantrums. They're amusing but they get old fast.

 

[Bowserboy3]

That rage tho. Anyway, people aren't trolling when they have a different opinion than you. Maybe some day when you're a big boy you'll learn about that. For now, try to cut down on the tantrums. They're amusing but they get old fast.

It's not even rage, it's more upset of having to explain time and time again. It's fine for people to have different opinions, but it's generally good to back them up with facts other than examples of "Half her specials are garbage that should never be used". If I remember rightly, I'm not the only one who has had "tantrums" am I?

Regardless, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but please just make sure you know what you are on about.

 

[jaketheknight]

+1 for, he's better than tier 4.

 

[Xandercosm]

It's not even rage, it's more upset of having to explain time and time again. It's fine for people to have different opinions, but it's generally good to back them up with facts other than examples of "Half her specials are garbage that should never be used". If I remember rightly, I'm not the only one who has had "tantrums" am I?

Regardless, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but please just make sure you know what you are on about.

I don't understand how not agreeing with everyone else that DK is tier 4 is throwing a tantrum. You yourself said that you got really worked up about that comment someone made about Samus. I think you like the whole low-tier hero thing. And that's ok. Just don't get upset when someone tells you that the character you're defending sucks. It's really hilarious how desperate you are to make some straw-man case that Samus has ANYTHING at all going for her. All I can say is that she's so bad that they should literally remove her from the game until they fix her sorry situation.

And, yes, I gave a lot of reasons why she sucks. Maybe you should learn how to read.

 

[aεrgiα]

I don't understand how not agreeing with everyone else that DK is tier 4 is throwing a tantrum. You yourself said that you got really worked up about that comment someone made about Samus. I think you like the whole low-tier hero thing. And that's ok. Just don't get upset when someone tells you that the character you're defending sucks. It's really hilarious how desperate you are to make some straw-man case that Samus has ANYTHING at all going for her. All I can say is that she's so bad that they should literally remove her from the game until they fix her sorry situation.

And, yes, I gave a lot of reasons why she sucks. Maybe you should learn how to read.

while i dont care about the whole tantrum thing, but i think weve all given u more than a "strawman" argument, in fact, i tackled ur EXACT arguments, in the same exact order(it doesnt get more easy to follow than that) to refute ur arguments, u gave a lot of reasons as to why samus is bad, you've been refuted by multiple people, either you provide counter arguments against those points, or you concede that they are true, but to just label all the arguments against ur post as "strawman cases"(do you even know what that term means?!?), when theyve clearly covered most or all of the points in your op, does not make you gain credibility in any way, shape or form... :/ in retrospect maybe you should learn to read

 

[Bowserboy3]

I don't understand how not agreeing with everyone else that DK is tier 4 is throwing a tantrum. You yourself said that you got really worked up about that comment someone made about Samus. I think you like the whole low-tier hero thing. And that's ok. Just don't get upset when someone tells you that the character you're defending sucks. It's really hilarious how desperate you are to make some straw-man case that Samus has ANYTHING at all going for her. All I can say is that she's so bad that they should literally remove her from the game until they fix her sorry situation.

And, yes, I gave a lot of reasons why she sucks. Maybe you should learn how to read.

Lmao how am I a low tier hero when I main Rosalina and Mario? I think the point you are missing is that me, @Vyrnx and other people who know how to play Samus, are not trying to say she is a hidden high tier or something. Samus is still pretty low on the tier list. The point we are trying to get across is that she really doesn't suck, her tools work, and she has a lot going for her. And if you took the time to explore the character, you'd realise too. But I can see you obviously aren't going to do that. Besides, I know there are many more people who agree that Samus is far from the worst character in the game, so the fact that you don't think so doesn't matter, I was only trying to shed light on her for you in the first place (I admit, even if it did sound really harsh/annoyed, the intention was just to let you know what she can do).

 

[Routa]

I like where this is going.

I think Xandercosm is right about Bowserboy3 over praising Samus a bit, but then again he seems to ignore all the counter arguments...

All I can say is that she's so bad that they should literally remove her from the game until they fix her sorry situation.

Brah go to Melee and then come back to talk here about fixing characters.

Anyways I suggest everyone to stop with the Samus and flaming stuff for now.