Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Bowserboy3]

well by his combos i assume u mean his throw combos in which case its true those are better than what bowser gets off of his grabs,
i wouldnt say he has better approach tools though, nair is a godsend for him bc of its ac frames, so its usage is similar to robs nair but its more useful as a spacing tool rather than an approach tool most of the time and jab,though a very good jab, is imo in the same boat in that its a great spacing tool but its even less of an approaching tool :/ multiple jumps, yep i agree on that, part of the reason his landing options are better than bowsers imo, and kill throw, yes its better than bowsers once again, so the reason why i think this evens out is because bowsers throw game maybe worse, but his grab game is better: this is due to the patch, prepatch zards main approach tool was dash->shield and then punish them with his amazing oos options, that tactic has gotten considerably worse, so his ways to get the grab have decreased, and heres the problem, charizards grab is decent(i believe its laggier than bowsers though, dont quote me on that) but unlike bowsers amazing dash and pivot grab, which can even beat out hitboxes if spaced well from what ive seen, zards grab isnt as good, and he doesnt have much to force people to stay in shield so that he can get the grab. his rocksmash is an amazing move, and while its not spamable if used correctly its a great move. flamethrower... well its a better version in pretty much everyway, simply because it flinches all the way through, not just for edgeguarding, even in the event u use it in neutral, or as a landing option, the end not flunching is just stupid and not preferable in any situation, i see no reason why it was even done that way. and as for up b oos, yep super armour and killing is really good but if u wiff it, u will get punished hard due to the huge landing lag, unlike bowsers(which can ofc be punished too but not charged usmash hard)

well either way i see ur point and i wont disagree with it, i just think the fact that his strongest advantage over bowser being his grab reward and oos options get hampered by the fact that he has a lot more trouble getting that grab than bowser does and that oos options got nerfed by 1.1.1 and by that he lost his best approach option, his best way to get the grab and a way to get people to hit his shield in the first place indirectly nerfing his oos game.

also related but a side note, i am currently trying to catch up on the comp. discussion thread, and this morning i got to(funnily enough) the bowser vs zard debate and this post sums up zard pretty well imo: Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics (hope this works, never done it before )

Fair enough points, but I never see people say Charizard's best approach is dash into shield. If I am honest, I see Bowser do this more than Charizard. About his Nair, Nair into Jab is great, Nair into Grab is also a thing. Of course Charizard gets more reward off of a grab. Dthrow can combo up to mid percents into Fair, and when this stops working, Uair works instead, which can even KO at percents low as 80%. It is also possible to wait at this percent and read a jump for example, where Up B can kill. And of course he has his Up Throw that can kill, and kills even earlier on stages with platforms like Battlefield or Smashville. I also see Charizard doing autocancel Fair as an approach too, which works as a defensive option too. I see Charizard doing these more than dashing into shield, so I have to disagree with that point.

I want Bowser to be great! But as it stands, I do believe Charizard is better than him.

 

[Zerp]

Spoiler: My humble opinion on the tier list

1:
2:
3:
3.5/ BL:
4:
5:
5.5/BL:
6:
7:
The BL stuff is basically just characters that I believe have a slight drop in quality from the rest of their tier but still aren't quite as low as the ones below them.
Now I'll just speak on why I put what I'm expecting to be my most controversial pick where she is. I feel that is either the absolute bottom of low tier, or the absolute top of bottom tier. This is because while her weaker traits are just as bad as the bottom tier characters, her strong traits, her aerial momentum, aerial attacks, wall of pain, and Rest, are in my honest opinion, more powerful and useful than anything Mewtwo, 1111 Brawler, and Zelda can offer.

Feel free to disagree with me on anything, just be civil about it and I'm fine with it.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Spoiler

1:

2:

3: ( )

4:

5:

6:

7:

Alright, here's my tier list:

S:

A:

B:

C+:

C:

C-:

D+:

D-:

E:

F:

Differances:

Jigglypuff is much higher

Kirby is a little higher

Mr. Game & Watch is much lower (Jigglypuff and Mr. Game & Watch kinda switch places a little in my tier list, though not fully.

Mii Swordfighter is higher. So is Mii Gunner, but not anywhere near as much

Samus goes down to second-from-last

Zelda is now last.

Olimar is higher

Bowser Jr. and Duck Hunt are higher.

Link is WAY lower.

Fox is a little higher, which Ryu is a little lower.

Yoshi is now in top tier

Pac-Man and Wario are higher, while Ike and Captain Falcon are lower

Mario is a little lower

Robin and Marth are much lower.

Also, while this isn't actually true, this is a comparsion of how much people actually THINK of Jigglypuff when they place her on a tier list.

Almost all non-Jigglypuff main/secondaries:oh. Jigglypuff. Hmm...... she's pink...... And uh...... that's all I need to think about. BOTTOM TIER.

Me:First, you must concentrate and visualize on how Jigglypuff is. I've gotta embrace the Jigglypuff! I've gotta sniff the Jigglypuff! I've gotta lick the Jigglypuff! I've gotta wash the Jigglypuff! I've gotta date the Jigglypuff! I've gotta be the Jigglypuff! I've GOT it! I have seen the jigglypuff within! *Places Jigglypuff in Lower-Mid, WHERE HE BELONGS*

P.S. the "me" part is a Spongebob referance

 

[Bowserboy3]

Spoiler: My humble opinion on the tier list

1:
2:
3:
3.5/ BL:
4:
5:
5.5/BL:
6:
7:
The BL stuff is basically just characters that I believe have a slight drop in quality from the rest of their tier but still aren't quite as low as the ones below them.
Now I'll just speak on why I put what I'm expecting to be my most controversial pick where she is. I feel that is either the absolute bottom of low tier, or the absolute top of bottom tier. This is because while her weaker traits are just as bad as the bottom tier characters, her strong traits, her aerial momentum, aerial attacks, wall of pain, and Rest, are in my honest opinion, more powerful and useful than anything Mewtwo, 1111 Brawler, and Zelda can offer.

Feel free to disagree with me on anything, just be civil about it and I'm fine with it.

Fair enough on your explainations on Puff. I still think she is bottom two, but that doesn't stop you being entitled to your own opinion. A couple of placements I want to bring up though.

I am glad you think also Samus is not that bad. I like you.

But I do think that having Lucina 2 tiers below Marth is still unforgivable. Marth's tipper makes him more rewarding, but both of them are not that different. I realistically see a difference of only 2 places at maximum. I also think that Roy still is higher than him. I am not discrediting your placement of Marth however, I think it is spot on, but I do believe Roy should be higher than him, and Lucina should be much closer. All this is coming from a Marth player. I could see Marth higher than Roy with better throw follow ups. As of now, I think they are similar, but Roy better. It's odd because I think Marth beats Roy in the matchup, but I still think Roy is a few spaces better than him.

 

[Furret24]

Spoiler

1:

2:

3: ( )

4:

5:

6:

7:

Alright, here's my tier list:

S:

A:

B:

C+:

C:

C-:

D+:

D-:

E:

F:

Differances:

Jigglypuff is much higher

Kirby is a little higher

Mr. Game & Watch is much lower (Jigglypuff and Mr. Game & Watch kinda switch places a little in my tier list, though not fully.

Mii Swordfighter is higher. So is Mii Gunner, but not anywhere near as much

Samus goes down to second-from-last

Zelda is now last.

Olimar is higher

Bowser Jr. and Duck Hunt are higher.

Link is WAY lower.

Fox is a little higher, which Ryu is a little lower.

Yoshi is now in top tier

Pac-Man and Wario are higher, while Ike and Captain Falcon are lower

Mario is a little lower

Robin and Marth are much lower.

Also, while this isn't actually true, this is a comparsion of how much people actually THINK of Jigglypuff when they place her on a tier list.

Almost all non-Jigglypuff main/secondaries:oh. Jigglypuff. Hmm...... she's pink...... And uh...... that's all I need to think about. BOTTOM TIER.

Me:First, you must concentrate and visualize on how Jigglypuff is. I've gotta embrace the Jigglypuff! I've gotta sniff the Jigglypuff! I've gotta lick the Jigglypuff! I've gotta wash the Jigglypuff! I've gotta date the Jigglypuff! I've gotta be the Jigglypuff! I've GOT it! I have seen the jigglypuff within! *Places Jigglypuff in Lower-Mid, WHERE HE BELONGS*

P.S. the "me" part is a Spongebob referance

The fact you think Jigglypuff is that high and that Game and Watch is worse than Dedede (and that low) makes me laugh.

I'm going to start on my tier list now.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

1:
2:
3:
3.5/ BL:
4:
5:
5.5/BL:
6:
7:
The BL stuff is basically just characters that I believe have a slight drop in quality from the rest of their tier but still aren't quite as low as the ones below them.
Now I'll just speak on why I put what I'm expecting to be my most controversial pick where she is. I feel that is either the absolute bottom of low tier, or the absolute top of bottom tier. This is because while her weaker traits are just as bad as the bottom tier characters, her strong traits, her aerial momentum, aerial attacks, wall of pain, and Rest, are in my honest opinion, more powerful and useful than anything Mewtwo, 1111 Brawler, and Zelda can offer.

Feel free to disagree with me on anything, just be civil about it and I'm fine with it.

I mostly agree, though I think (setups, low lag, high speed, good power) and (insane zoning game, anti-projectiles, kills early) could be a tier higher each.

Spoiler

1:

2:

3: ( )

4:

5:

6:

7:

Alright, here's my tier list:

S:

A:

B:

C+:

C:

C-:

D+:

D-:

E:

F:

Differances:

Jigglypuff is much higher

Kirby is a little higher

Mr. Game & Watch is much lower (Jigglypuff and Mr. Game & Watch kinda switch places a little in my tier list, though not fully.

Mii Swordfighter is higher. So is Mii Gunner, but not anywhere near as much

Samus goes down to second-from-last

Zelda is now last.

Olimar is higher

Bowser Jr. and Duck Hunt are higher.

Link is WAY lower.

Fox is a little higher, which Ryu is a little lower.

Yoshi is now in top tier

Pac-Man and Wario are higher, while Ike and Captain Falcon are lower

Mario is a little lower

Robin and Marth are much lower.

Also, while this isn't actually true, this is a comparsion of how much people actually THINK of Jigglypuff when they place her on a tier list.

Almost all non-Jigglypuff main/secondaries:oh. Jigglypuff. Hmm...... she's pink...... And uh...... that's all I need to think about. BOTTOM TIER.

Me:First, you must concentrate and visualize on how Jigglypuff is. I've gotta embrace the Jigglypuff! I've gotta sniff the Jigglypuff! I've gotta lick the Jigglypuff! I've gotta wash the Jigglypuff! I've gotta date the Jigglypuff! I've gotta be the Jigglypuff! I've GOT it! I have seen the jigglypuff within! *Places Jigglypuff in Lower-Mid, WHERE HE BELONGS*

P.S. the "me" part is a Spongebob referance

(combos and killing), (combos and spacing), (projectiles and killing), (spacing and killing), and (need I explain?) are not that low.

(possibly not the worst, but one of them) and (based on setups, but too laggy to be reliable) are not that high.

I can accept the placements of , , and , but that's almost pushing it.

 

[Deleted member]

We doing tier lists? I love me some tier lists.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

If you guys have any questions about this, feel free to ask! Miis are 1111, default size on this list.

 

[Bowserboy3]

We doing tier lists? I love me some tier lists.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

If you guys have any questions about this, feel free to ask! Miis are 1111, default size on this list.

Nice list.

Just a few things about it for me. Lucina being that far away from Marth still seems odd, and Lucario seems very far down. Other than that, it's pretty solid!

 

[Deleted member]

Nice list.

Just a few things about it for me. Lucina being that far away from Marth still seems odd, and Lucario seems very far down. Other than that, it's pretty solid!

isn't consistently viable in my eyes, even if his gimmick (Aura) is very deadly it still requires him to get near kill percents to fulfill his killing potential. He's brought down by having below-average survivability and pretty booty frame data as well. In other aspects he's been nerfed pretty hard from Brawl save for the massive Aura buff, especially with how fast his attacks were overall in that game.

And eh, I still stand by how I feel about . She's definitely not bad, just invalidated by Marth in almost every aspect. She's an okay character but if you're going to tournaments, you're gonna get further with Marth rather than Lucina. 'Least I didn't put her two whole tiers below Marth lol

 

[TMNTSSB4]

S:
A:/
B:
C:
D:
F:

No order, and I wasn't sure whether to put Samus in D or F tier, so I went with F(oh well)

 

[Deleted member]

S:
A:/
B:
C:
D:
F:

No order, and I wasn't sure whether to put Samus in D or F tier, so I went with F(oh well)

That A tier is massive.

Also Ike isn't better than the Mario Bros., and the Pits are most definitely not better than Ness, Yoshi or Meta Knight.

Samus ain't bottom two either and Falco isn't worse than Bowser or Shulk. C'mon, bruh.

 

[Zerp]

Fair enough on your explainations on Puff. I still think she is bottom two, but that doesn't stop you being entitled to your own opinion. A couple of placements I want to bring up though.

I am glad you think also Samus is not that bad. I like you.

But I do think that having Lucina 2 tiers below Marth is still unforgivable. Marth's tipper makes him more rewarding, but both of them are not that different. I realistically see a difference of only 2 places at maximum. I also think that Roy still is higher than him. I am not discrediting your placement of Marth however, I think it is spot on, but I do believe Roy should be higher than him, and Lucina should be much closer. All this is coming from a Marth player. I could see Marth higher than Roy with better throw follow ups. As of now, I think they are similar, but Roy better. It's odd because I think Marth beats Roy in the matchup, but I still think Roy is a few spaces better than him.

About Marth, I feel he's just flat out better than Lucina due to her lack of tipper and how the tipper rewards spacing as Marth, to the point that their viability is drastically different. Roy was a lot harder to rate though, I feel like Roy's got these tremendous strengths, but his shortcomings like his fall-speed and weaker recovery hold him back just enough that Marth's still the better of the two imo. It's probably worth noting though that I'm pretty likely to have at least some bias influencing that, since my brother is also a Marth main and I tend to take his word a lot when it comes to Marth, and especially when it comes to Lucina, so I'll admit that my view on Marth vs Lucina and Roy could be a bit slanted.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

That A tier is massive.

Also Ike isn't better than the Mario Bros., and the Pits are most definitely not better than Ness, Yoshi or Meta Knight.

Samus ain't bottom two either and Falco isn't worse than Bowser or Shulk. C'mon, bruh.

You do know I said no order right? Noone ever seems to pay attention to that wherever I put it. If ya did, then you'd notice that it's ordered the way the website organized them.

Also, ignored what I said about Samus's reasoning.

READ THE WHOLE THING BEFORE COMMENTING!

 

[Deleted member]

You do know I said no order right? Noone ever seems to pay attention to that wherever I put it. If ya did, then you'd notice that it's ordered the way the website organized them.

Also, ignored what I said about Samus's reasoning.

READ THE WHOLE THING BEFORE COMMENTING!

oh, my apologies

 

[TMNTSSB4]

oh, my apologies

I can't believe that worked...go red

 

[Bowserboy3]

About Marth, I feel he's just flat out better than Lucina due to her lack of tipper and how the tipper rewards spacing as Marth, to the point that their viability is drastically different. Roy was a lot harder to rate though, I feel like Roy's got these tremendous strengths, but his shortcomings like his fall-speed and weaker recovery hold him back just enough that Marth's still the better of the two imo. It's probably worth noting though that I'm pretty likely to have at least some bias influencing that, since my brother is also a Marth main and I tend to take his word a lot when it comes to Marth, and especially when it comes to Lucina, so I'll admit that my view on Marth vs Lucina and Roy could be a bit slanted.

Yeah, Marth is one of the 4 characters I completely focus on. I respect the fact that Marth is better than Lucina, but I also know that both of them are not that different. I have seen people moan and say that she can't kill. When she has an Fsmash that can kill at about 75% and an Usmash that can kill about 15% later, that is ridiculous. Her Shield Breaker is also better than Marth's for shield breaks. Marth gets the chance to close stocks out very early, but Lucina still has the exact same frame data as him. It's not like Mario and Doc, who have different speeds and jump heights and one being able to do more moves per jump for example. They are exactly the same.

It's really hard for me to explain, but I just cannot see at all, how just lacking his tipper makes her so different, especially considering she can do virtually EVERYTHING he can do. She still has a good recovery like Marth, still has the fast large disjointed hitboxes, still has a good off stage game etc. They all just work slightly differently, and though they have less fear factor than Marth's, they still work and are good in their own right thanks to being exactly the same as Marth. I suppose an example of this would be off stage games. For example, if Marth gets a character like Falcon off stage early, he can keep him off stage easily by hitting him and returning to the stage. Lets say Marth hits a tipper Bair in this situation at about 40%. That could be enough to close the stock out. However, Lucina can still do the same thing. She can still edgeguard the same as Marth, but in order to make sure the stock is sealed out, a percent of about 50+% is optimal. Yet she still has the easy, and powerful off stage presence as Marth. So where Marth's tipper makes things more rewarding, Lucina is still able to achieve lots of the same things Marth can, just on a standard level.

Please don't think I am getting on at you, I am not. I am just voicing my concerns!

 

[lbrasz44]

Alright might as well put out mine

S
A+
A
A-()
B+
B
C+
C-

Some stuff other than slight character placements:
-I split tiers 2 and 3 (although mainly t3) into 3 separate ones. The ones in the A tiers are notable characters with A+ basically being the best but not dominant, A as firmly rooted as great characters, just lagging behind the guys above a little in ability and/or results. And the A- guys are those who broke out recently or are not firmly rooted to outright be the top characters.
-Overall the cast is fairly balanced for its size, as I think there really isn't anyone that can be outright confirmed as unviable, hence my refusal to dip below C-. Jigglypuff may be placed as the worst non-mii, but I still think rather decently of the character.
-I know next to nothing about the miis, but I swapped swordfighter and brawler as I do know some good stuff can happen from the former. Regardless, their placement is arbitrary as I just kept their general spot.
-Samus may be awkward to play, but I am in love with her tilts and uair. She can also do some crazy combos early on hence her placement in B
-Lucina is only a couple spots behind Marth. Same with Link and Tink, although their differences is enough to warrant a slight separation between tiers.

 

[Furret24]

I have seen people moan and say that she can't kill. When she has an Fsmash that can kill at about 75% and an Usmash that can kill about 15% later, that is ridiculous.

Just because you kill early doesn't mean you don't have killing issues. A good example is , who has 3 smashes that can start killing around 95%, but they all have issues that make them difficult to kill with. They all have fairly high startup, usmash has crap range, and the other two have giant sourspots that are incredibly weak (especially dsmash). His uair is strong, but it's two hits connect terribly. Oil Panic can be incredibly powerful, it's risky to fill and unable to kill in a lot of matchups. 9 can nearly 1-Hit-KO, but is unreliable to get, has a lot of startup, has horrible range, and is super unsafe on shield.

The reason why Lucina's fsmash and usmash are good for killing is because they have large disjoint, great power, and have fast startup.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Just because you kill early doesn't mean you don't have killing issues. A good example is , who has 3 smashes that can start killing around 95%, but they all have issues that make them difficult to kill with. They all have fairly high startup, usmash has crap range, and the other two have giant sourspots that are incredibly weak (especially dsmash). His uair is strong, but it's two hits connect terribly. Oil Panic can be incredibly powerful, it's risky to fill and unable to kill in a lot of matchups. 9 can nearly 1-Hit-KO, but is unreliable to get, has a lot of startup, has horrible range, and is super unsafe on shield.

The reason why Lucina's fsmash and usmash are good for killing is because they have large disjoint, great power, and have fast startup.

Yeah I understand that, which is why it baffles me when people just assume Lucina has trouble killing, when she doesn't at all.

 

[Furret24]

Yeah I understand that, which is why it baffles me when people just assume Lucina has trouble killing, when she doesn't at all.

Because people believe things that are said to be true a lot whether they are or not. False things are perceived true if enough people say they are so.

 

[Xandercosm]

We probably shouldn't be so hasty with making our tier lists. There's a lot more to come to Smash 4...

 

[Deleted member]

Because people believe things that are said to be true a lot whether they are or not. False things are perceived true if enough people say they are so.

Just like how people say has terrible tournament results when it's a good amount better than most of the other low/bottom tiers.

 

[Furret24]

We probably shouldn't be so hasty with making our tier lists. There's a lot more to come to Smash 4...

We can always just make new ones...

There is a lot more to come though. Just look at the Meta Knight boom.

 

[kaz99]

Eh, I might as well post mine.

S:
A+:
A-:
B+:
B-:
C:
D:
E:

I didn't include miis because I wasn't sure how to order them. But with the 1111 set, all of them would probably be stuck in D tier.

 

[aεrgiα]

You do know I said no order right? Noone ever seems to pay attention to that wherever I put it. If ya did, then you'd notice that it's ordered the way the website organized them.

Also, ignored what I said about Samus's reasoning.

READ THE WHOLE THING BEFORE COMMENTING!

if ur gonna all caps rage in red, then make sure what u say is actually correct :/ u know, about the samus thing... i know u said u werent sure if she should be tier d or f BUT first of all, the fact that u did decide to put her in tier f, makes her one of the two worst chars in the game according to ur tier list, even if i give u the benefit of the doubt and say she could have been tier d, the fact that she is the only character thats borderline between d and f makes her the worst char in tier d, which means even then shes STILL the second worst character in the game.
also, side note but u missed out tier E

well then, time to post my probably controversial/weird tier list then

Spoiler

1.
2.
3.(both of them)
4.
5.
6.

yeah... i said it would be controversial didnt i
feel free to disagree, argue if u want(i love discussing things like this) but what ever u do, theres a single logic i dont want to hear, at all, and thats "well character x is in the game so character y is unviable" no, just no, i dont care for such twisted logic, to me its like saying your 40k € bmw is crap, you could be driving a 1 mil € huayra...

Edit: also if ive missed someone, please tell me, i did this on mobile which was a "bit" awkward

 

[Honorius]

-1 Ryu (good character but not top 10 good)
+1 Captain Falcon ( He should not be under Yoshi, and that's coming from a Yoshi main. )
+1 MK ( Deserves top 10. Amazing kill potential with minimal reads. His only downfall is that his approach game is linear and his range isn't great.)
+1 Olimar (strong keep away game. Really only suffers against the top 4 and Sonic.)
+1 Roy (Seriously underrated but, without tourney results, he should be around tier 3 on the list. Maybe 4 high.)

 

[Wintermelon43]

Spoiler

1:

2:

3: ( )

4:

5:

6:

7:

Alright, here's my tier list:

S:

A:

B:

C+:

C:

C-:

D+:

D-:

E:

F:

Differances:

Jigglypuff is much higher

Kirby is a little higher

Mr. Game & Watch is much lower (Jigglypuff and Mr. Game & Watch kinda switch places a little in my tier list, though not fully.

Mii Swordfighter is higher. So is Mii Gunner, but not anywhere near as much

Samus goes down to second-from-last

Zelda is now last.

Olimar is higher

Bowser Jr. and Duck Hunt are higher.

Link is WAY lower.

Fox is a little higher, which Ryu is a little lower.

Yoshi is now in top tier

Pac-Man and Wario are higher, while Ike and Captain Falcon are lower

Mario is a little lower

Robin and Marth are much lower.

Also, while this isn't actually true, this is a comparsion of how much people actually THINK of Jigglypuff when they place her on a tier list.

Almost all non-Jigglypuff main/secondaries:oh. Jigglypuff. Hmm...... she's pink...... And uh...... that's all I need to think about. BOTTOM TIER.

Me:First, you must concentrate and visualize on how Jigglypuff is. I've gotta embrace the Jigglypuff! I've gotta sniff the Jigglypuff! I've gotta lick the Jigglypuff! I've gotta wash the Jigglypuff! I've gotta date the Jigglypuff! I've gotta be the Jigglypuff! I've GOT it! I have seen the jigglypuff within! *Places Jigglypuff in Lower-Mid, WHERE HE BELONGS*

P.S. the "me" part is a Spongebob referance

Forgot to mention, I plan on making a new tier list this weekend too, which I will also post. I generally don't change the tier list unless a character is used at a major/fairly major regional (CEO, Big House, Paragon, Etc) and it proves itself better/worse than where it is, or there's a major change, unless There's a major differance in his metagame.

Might be making an edit now though

Edit:Okay, the revision is made! Check the OP and the quote in this post to see the differance!

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

-1 Ryu (good character but not top 10 good)
+1 Captain Falcon ( He should not be under Yoshi, and that's coming from a Yoshi main. )
+1 MK ( Deserves top 10. Amazing kill potential with minimal reads. His only downfall is that his approach game is linear and his range isn't great.)
+1 Olimar (strong keep away game. Really only suffers against the top 4 and Sonic.)
+1 Roy (Seriously underrated but, without tourney results, he should be around tier 3 on the list. Maybe 4 high.)

We're not voting anymore, we're just discussing what we would change about the final list.

Seriously, this is like deja vu.

And while I'm at it, Ryu is top 10 good. Like, seriously. And Roy isn't that much better than Marth if at all.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

if ur gonna all caps rage in red, then make sure what u say is actually correct :/ u know, about the samus thing... i know u said u werent sure if she should be tier d or f BUT first of all, the fact that u did decide to put her in tier f, makes her one of the two worst chars in the game according to ur tier list, even if i give u the benefit of the doubt and say she could have been tier d, the fact that she is the only character thats borderline between d and f makes her the worst char in tier d, which means even then shes STILL the second worst character in the game.
also, side note but u missed out tier E

well then, time to post my probably controversial/weird tier list then

Spoiler

1.
2.
3.(both of them)
4.
5.
6.

yeah... i said it would be controversial didnt i
feel free to disagree, argue if u want(i love discussing things like this) but what ever u do, theres a single logic i dont want to hear, at all, and thats "well character x is in the game so character y is unviable" no, just no, i dont care for such twisted logic, to me its like saying your 40k € bmw is crap, you could be driving a 1 mil € huayra...

Edit: also if ive missed someone, please tell me, i did this on mobile which was a "bit" awkward

Who said I was mad about people ignoring a little comment? I had Samus between the 2 because I left out the Miis(and I could be wrong, but aren't Swordfighter and Gunner low tier? I always see them ranked there). Also, I didn't need an E Tier.

 

[Deleted member]

I fail to see how is better than . While Roy is lacking in tournament representation at the moment, his strengths are very real. Even though his fast falling speed makes him susceptible to combos and he suffers from a poor recovery, once Roy has control of the neutral it's quite hard to take it from him. His air speed is one of the best in the game and he's just as nimble on the ground, giving him some quite respectable stage movement.

Even if his aerials may not autocancel, they have relatively low startup and cooldown and are highly damaging when sweetspotted or near sweetpotted, and can kill onstage at higher percents too. You could argue that him having sweetspots at the hilt of his sword is a... double-edged sword (ayyyy lmao) since he can't space like Marth and to has fight more up close, but the thing is the sweetspots are generally better to get than Marth's because you'll be in CQC most of the time during a match anyhow.

Roy gets more reward off of a grab than Marth, especially with Blazer being able to true combo out of down throw at low percents. His punish game is generally great for a character like him as well, especially with a move as powerful as Flare Blade having such little to no risk of being used despite its power and being a great edgeguarding tool. Besides being used out of dthrow, Blazer's a great KO move near the upper blast line and a viable OoS option.

Not completely discrediting Marth, as I think he's overall decent as well. I just don't see what he does better than Roy other than early tipper KOs (which are hard to get in the first place).

Also Roy has a much better dash attack than Marth despite how slow it may be, especially since it can kill. Marth's DA is complete booty.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I fail to see how is better than . While Roy is lacking in tournament representation at the moment, his strengths are very real. Even though his fast falling speed makes him susceptible to combos and he suffers from a poor recovery, once Roy has control of the neutral it's quite hard to take it from him. His air speed is one of the best in the game and he's just as nimble on the ground, giving him some of the best stage movement.

Even if his aerials may not autocancel, they have relatively low startup and cooldown and are highly damaging when sweetspotted or near sweetpotted, and can kill onstage at higher percents too. You could argue that him having sweetspots at the hilt of his sword is a... double-edged sword (ayyyy lmao) since he can't space like Marth and to has fight more up close, but the thing is the sweetspots are generally better to get than Marth's because you'll be in CQC most of the time during a match anyhow.

Roy gets more reward off of a grab than Marth, especially with Blazer being able to true combo into it at low percents. His punish game is generally great for a character like him as well, especially with a move as powerful as Flare Blade having such little to no risk of being used despite its power and being a great edgeguarding tool. Besides being used out of throw, Blazer's a great KO move near the upper blast line and a viable OoS option.

Not completely discrediting Marth, as I think he's overall decent as well. I just don't see what he does better than Roy other than early tipper KOs (which are hard to get in the first place).

Also Roy has a much better dash attack than Marth despite how slow it may be, especially since it can kill. Marth's DA is complete booty.

You said booty...it's time for a New Day

But seriously though, Roy is better

 

[aεrgiα]

Who said I was mad about people ignoring a little comment? I had Samus between the 2 because I left out the Miis(and I could be wrong, but aren't Swordfighter and Gunner low tier? I always see them ranked there). Also, I didn't need an E Tier.

well all caps, much bigger than the rest of ur text and all in red, and the content all implied u were mad, but regardless of whether u were mad or not , the message came across as very rude to me, and considering the fact that what u wrote didnt actually adress one of his issues despite u saying it did in big bold red letters didnt help ur case. well i personally disagree with gunner and sword being there but it is popular opinion yes.
no you miss my point so ill elaborate, the alphabet goes -> a,b,c,d,E,f so your last tier should have been called tier E and not tier F

 

[Honorius]

Seriously, this is like deja vu.

And while I'm at it, Ryu is top 10 good. Like, seriously. And Roy isn't that much better than Marth if at all.

Well... Missed that part but that is what I'd change about the current list. I think Ryu, when played optimally, is a force to be reckoned with. Top 10 though? His hurt box is a little big and he's not really fast. Didn't look up his frame data but does he have an out to low percent juggles? Focus floating? He has a lot of armored moves though and pretty good kill potential. He's easily top 20 but...10?


And Roy is at least a little more consistent than Marth. Roy can rush in and not have to worry about spacing. Marth requires a bit more accuracy and is a bit more susceptible to rush down

 

[TMNTSSB4]

well all caps, much bigger than the rest of ur text and all in red, and the content all implied u were mad, but regardless of whether u were mad or not , the message came across as very rude to me, and considering the fact that what u wrote didnt actually adress one of his issues despite u saying it did in big bold red letters didnt help ur case. well i personally disagree with gunner and sword being there but it is popular opinion yes.
no you miss my point so ill elaborate, the alphabet goes -> a,b,c,d,E,f so your last tier should have been called tier E and not tier F

Schools don't have an E for a grade, and I like using bold red words

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Well... Missed that part but that is what I'd change about the current list. I think Ryu, when played optimally, is a force to be reckoned with. Top 10 though? His hurt box is a little big and he's not really fast. Didn't look up his frame data but does he have an out to low percent juggles? Focus floating? He has a lot of armored moves though and pretty good kill potential. He's easily top 20 but...10?

Ryu has Shoryuken or Focus Attack to get out of combos, possibly killing or starting a combo of his own. Not to mention, he's got a variety of combos that can do high damage and lead to death starting at low percentages. He was designed to be a character that is extremely good if the player is capable, and I think that makes him worthy to be top tier.

And Roy is at least a little more consistent than Marth. Roy can rush in and not have to worry about spacing. Marth requires a bit more accuracy and is a bit more susceptible to rush down

Congrats, Roy is easier to use than Marth. Doesn't mean he's any better when Marth has better spacing, safer aerials, and a better recovery with the same amount of kill potential.

 

[Deleted member]

Congrats, Roy is easier to use than Marth. Doesn't mean he's any better when Marth has better spacing, safer aerials, and a better recovery with the same amount of kill potential.

He never said Roy was "easier" to use than Marth, just more consistent. And in that case, he's correct. Don't put words in his mouth. And did you even read my post above regarding how good Roy's advantage state is over Marth's?

 

[aεrgiα]

Schools don't have an E for a grade, and I like using bold red words

i dont know what school u went/go to but i can assure u i had e grades in school(as in it was one of the possible grades) but what, in all honesty do school grades have to do with tier lists, also whats the logic behind schools having an f grade without an e grade do they just not know the alphabet? i know the only thing we ever used f for was fail... but officially it was just not mentioned on ur results certificate if u failed the course :/
well bolded red text in that context makes u seem very... unfriendly, to put it nicely

 

[TMNTSSB4]

i dont know what school u went/go to but i can assure u i had e grades in school(as in it was one of the possible grades) but what, in all honesty do school grades have to do with tier lists, also whats the logic behind schools having an f grade without an e grade do they just not know the alphabet? i know the only thing we ever used f for was fail... but officially it was just not mentioned on ur results certificate if u failed the course :/
well bolded red text in that context makes u seem very... unfriendly, to put it nicely

Schools having E as a letter grade is...unsettling but quite original(ish)at the same time.

Red's a cool color, and I abuse it alot(along with green and blue)

 

[Zerp]

I fail to see how is better than . While Roy is lacking in tournament representation at the moment, his strengths are very real. Even though his fast falling speed makes him susceptible to combos and he suffers from a poor recovery, once Roy has control of the neutral it's quite hard to take it from him. His air speed is one of the best in the game and he's just as nimble on the ground, giving him some quite respectable stage movement.

Even if his aerials may not autocancel, they have relatively low startup and cooldown and are highly damaging when sweetspotted or near sweetpotted, and can kill onstage at higher percents too. You could argue that him having sweetspots at the hilt of his sword is a... double-edged sword (ayyyy lmao) since he can't space like Marth and to has fight more up close, but the thing is the sweetspots are generally better to get than Marth's because you'll be in CQC most of the time during a match anyhow.

Roy gets more reward off of a grab than Marth, especially with Blazer being able to true combo out of down throw at low percents. His punish game is generally great for a character like him as well, especially with a move as powerful as Flare Blade having such little to no risk of being used despite its power and being a great edgeguarding tool. Besides being used out of dthrow, Blazer's a great KO move near the upper blast line and a viable OoS option.

Not completely discrediting Marth, as I think he's overall decent as well. I just don't see what he does better than Roy other than early tipper KOs (which are hard to get in the first place).

Also Roy has a much better dash attack than Marth despite how slow it may be, especially since it can kill. Marth's DA is complete booty.

I agree with you on most of those points, and I believe Roy's a lot better than Marth onstage. However, the main reason why I think Marths a bit better than Roy overall is his offstage game. I believe that Marth is better off-stage because his lesser fall speed allows him to stay out longer, his airspeed is better, which allows him to go out farther, his recovery is better, and his tipper off-stage heavily compliments good spacing off-stage and all of that allows him to shut down many characters recoveries, such as characters like ,, and, and I feel like Roy's just less efficient off-stage. Roy does a lot of damage off-stage but , he can't stay out as long due to his fallspeed and recovery, it's because of that I don't think he really has as much options to shut down recoveries, since he can't go as far-out and isn't as safe as Marth when edgeguarding. You do bring up a lot of fair points, and you know what, you might be right, but I hope you can understand why I'd think Marth's better now.

 

[Routa]

@Feelicks the thing is that...
A) unsafe approach options outside semisafe Nair
B) one of the worst disadvantage state (bad combination of fast fall speed and no escape tool)
C) very linear recovery
D) no reliable way to KO

The thing is that Sm4sh is very safety based game. Why is Sheik the best character atm? Great advantage state, ok disadvantage state and has ways to approach safely.

Now Marth indeed has worse advantage state then Roy, but he has far better advantage state. Marth is one of the characters that can abuse PP and Foxtrot extremely well.

The thing is that many people (like myself) get overwhelmed by Roy's speed. But once you have got used to it... Well it won't be that big of a problem.

Also to Bowser and Zard talk... I have to say Bowser has easier time landing than Zard. Now youmay say: "But more Jumps and Rock Smash...". Yes these do give Zard more landing options, but they are mediocre at best. Rock Smash is rather easy to bait and punish and when your air mobility is Zard lvl... Well the extra jump wont save you unless you fight against Ganondor..? Many forget how fast Bowser's Dair is. Also you can stall it if you use it while still being in hit stun.

Also about OoS game... Yes Zard has indeed better Up-B in terms of power, but it's hitbox size and slower start up maxes it easier to avoid. In the other hard Bowser's Up-B has bigger hitbox, faster startup, less endlag and harder to punish than Zard's Up-B.

I think I will make my tier list a bit later. Rather hard to do on phone :S