Work In Progress SWF Community Voted Tier List - 3.0 COMPLETE

[Wintermelon43]

I love how Marth is too high, but Lucina is too low.

(On the official swf community voted tier list)

 

[aεrgiα]

Schools having E as a letter grade is...unsettling but quite original(ish)at the same time.

Red's a cool color, and I abuse it alot(along with green and blue)

i dont see how its unsettling in any way what so ever, especially considering that its the stadardin a whole country(this is only the last 2 years of school) here is an explanation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_grading_in_the_United_Kingdom -> click on "england, wales and northern ireland" and go to "advanced level" and read that. whats more unsettling to me is arbitrarily just skipping a letter for no apparent reason, either way, this is derailing quite a bit, and this isnt the correct place to talk about education variations in different countries so i think we should stop discussing this here
though if u insist... Kappa

and red is a nice colour, but its also associated with aggression, so its not always the best choice of colour

 

[Xandercosm]

Seriously, this is like deja vu.

And while I'm at it, Ryu is top 10 good. Like, seriously. And Roy isn't that much better than Marth if at all.

Ryu isn't top 10 good.

 

[aεrgiα]

@Feelicks the thing is that...
A) unsafe approach options outside semisafe Nair
B) one of the worst disadvantage state (bad combination of fast fall speed and no escape tool)
C) very linear recovery
D) no reliable way to KO

The thing is that Sm4sh is very safety based game. Why is Sheik the best character atm? Great advantage state, ok disadvantage state and has ways to approach safely.

Now Marth indeed has worse advantage state then Roy, but he has far better advantage state. Marth is one of the characters that can abuse PP and Foxtrot extremely well.

The thing is that many people (like myself) get overwhelmed by Roy's speed. But once you have got used to it... Well it won't be that big of a problem.

Also to Bowser and Zard talk... I have to say Bowser has easier time landing than Zard. Now youmay say: "But more Jumps and Rock Smash...". Yes these do give Zard more landing options, but they are mediocre at best. Rock Smash is rather easy to bait and punish and when your air mobility is Zard lvl... Well the extra jump wont save you unless you fight against Ganondor..? Many forget how fast Bowser's Dair is. Also you can stall it if you use it while still being in hit stun.

Also about OoS game... Yes Zard has indeed better Up-B in terms of power, but it's hitbox size and slower start up maxes it easier to avoid. In the other hard Bowser's Up-B has bigger hitbox, faster startup, less endlag and harder to punish than Zard's Up-B.

I think I will make my tier list a bit later. Rather hard to do on phone :S

about that last sentence, shia would like to have a word with you
but real talk, i agree that safety on moves is the biggest thing holding him back, ill say it this way, if all moves ended directly after the hitbox came out, roy would be a great character, however they dont, and pretty much all of his "rewarding" moves have terrible end lag, especially when it comes to kill moves-_-
also about sheik i would disagree, she doesnt have an "ok" disadvantage state, i think she has a good disadvantage state, (yes there are characters with a better disadvantage state, pikachu and greninja come to mind for me) but great nair, fair and bouncing fish and a great recovery all make her have a pretty good disadvantage imo though i will concede that its held back by her "bad" fall speed.
also this sentence doesnt make sense "Now Marth indeed has worse advantage state then Roy, but he has far better advantage state." from the context i would assume its meant to be neutral, but it could also be disadvantage(which is also better than roys, by quite a lot actually)

and about landing with zard vs landing with bowser, while all your points are correct, the same could be said about bowser; dair is pretty easy to bait out and punish, and bowsers aerial mobility isnt great either last time i checked, and he doesnt even have multiple jumps, yes he also has side b, but that move is terribly slow in the air, though it is an option, just as zards jumps are. zard also the better flamethrower IF u ever find yourself in a situation where its useful(yes there are not a lot but there are some) also, it may sound stupid, but depending on where he is, zards multiple jumps CAN help him get to the ledge, which isnt a great position, but its def better than being in the air above an opponent

 

[aεrgiα]

Ryu isn't top 10 good.

why isnt he in your opinion? he has great safe on shield attacks, great shield pressure with his attacks, a surprisingly good grab game, not lucas weegee or ness good but still useable, probably the least trouble killing out of the whole cast, his moves deal a lot of damage so good damage wracking too, hes got a decent recovery(its gimpable, but its very scary to do so) a decent projectile, a decent anti juggle option in TSRK, easy kill confirms(goes hand in hand with no trouble killing but i cant stress this enough) focus attack is also a very great move, u can see this by the sole fact that ryu has a difficult time against characters with good multihit moves. i mean, unlike quite a lot of people in this thread, i do not think he is quite tier 1 material yet, but in my humble opinion he is easily top 10

 

[Routa]

also this sentence doesnt make sense "Now Marth indeed has worse advantage state then Roy, but he has far better advantage state." from the context i would assume its meant to be neutral, but it could also be disadvantage(which is also better than roys, by quite a lot actually)

Ah forgot to put "dis-" in front of it. **** happens, eh?

Anyways about the Sheik part... Yeah I was thinking should I call her disadvantage state "ok" or "good". I compared it in my mind to Mario's, which kinda explains why I chose "ok" instead of "good".

There are little to no move that can challenge Bowser's Dair (counters and Mega Man's Uair) which also makes catching Bawser in air very hard. Yes Zard does indeed have better recovery, but I woud say he has a bit harder time landing. Tbh they are, in my opinion, next to each other's within the tier list.

Now I have been wondering why DHD is usually placed so low along with Mewtwo? Yes I am aware of DHD's recovery and hard time killing and M2 being light as ****, but I think people don't are so blinded by their cons that they forget in what they are good. I might post more about this later.

 

[LozNerd]

i dont know what school u went/go to but i can assure u i had e grades in school(as in it was one of the possible grades) but what, in all honesty do school grades have to do with tier lists, also whats the logic behind schools having an f grade without an e grade do they just not know the alphabet? i know the only thing we ever used f for was fail... but officially it was just not mentioned on ur results certificate if u failed the course :/
well bolded red text in that context makes u seem very... unfriendly, to put it nicely

What school did you go to? I think this is more unusual then having ABCDF in schools.

Edit: nevermind didn't see that last post. In america its A B C D F.

 

[Cornbrd]

I completly disagree with Jiggs being one of the lowest on the bottom tiers. True she has plently faults, which earn her the low-tier position. But as a Puff secondary I can tell you she absolutley destroyes other low-tiers, being that she should be a bit higher. Tried not to be biased, assumed/theorized on high/top level play

EDIT: Low-tiers mainly being fast fallers and body bags basically like Ganon, Dedede, Charizard, Samus etc. either way they all seem to be placed higher.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Ryu isn't top 10 good...HE'S THE BEST DAMN CHARACTER IN THE END PARTY SQUAD AND TOP 5-6 YAYYYYYY

Well you got that right

i dont see how its unsettling in any way what so ever, especially considering that its the stadardin a whole country(this is only the last 2 years of school) here is an explanation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_grading_in_the_United_Kingdom -> click on "england, wales and northern ireland" and go to "advanced level" and read that. whats more unsettling to me is arbitrarily just skipping a letter for no apparent reason, either way, this is derailing quite a bit, and this isnt the correct place to talk about education variations in different countries so i think we should stop discussing this here
though if u insist... Kappa

and red is a nice colour, but its also associated with aggression, so its not always the best choice of colour

I've only had A-F without the E and the additional Z(High School only so far)for years, anything else is weird

Red can also be for...Raphael and Spiderman

 

[aεrgiα]

I completly disagree with Jiggs being one of the lowest on the bottom tiers. True she has plently faults, which earn her the low-tier position. But as a Puff secondary I can tell you she absolutley destroyes other low-tiers, being that she should be a bit higher. Tried not to be biased, assumed/theorized on high/top level play

EDIT: Low-tiers mainly being fast fallers and body bags basically like Ganon, Dedede, Charizard, Samus etc. either way they all seem to be placed higher.

its funny but i think that jiggs is actually one of the few positive mus d3 has but either way i would definitely not say she absolutely destroys him... fast fall speed or no, jiggs isnt realistically going to combo anyone badly unless im missing some seriously strong true combos she has at anything past low percents, otherwise i dont see any reason not to just throw out a hitbox as dedede, i mean ill be honest, i wouldnt care about trading hits in most cases, d3 has arguably the best survivability in the game so jiggs is going to have a fun time trying to kill dedede with her, not exactly great killing options. i mean u could argue rest, but i could argue if u wiff it ur stocks gone at 30, especially if d3 has rage. d3 also has another thing jiggs really appreciates, disjoints, especially on aerials thing is, the most difficult mu for dedede are mus where hes forced to approach, but jiggs cant really force that... and even if i have to approach, bair is actually pretty decent as an approach aerial(never in my life did i think i would EVER say this about dededes bair lol) if u mix it up because the most jiggs can do oos is nair... which wont reasonably kill me until something like 160%?

feel free to correct me if im wrong, maybe all the jiggs ive played so far(so not a lot tbh) have been playing the mu completely wrong the whole time, i love learning about this game so if im wrong please do tell me how and where

 

[Xandercosm]

why isnt he in your opinion? he has great safe on shield attacks, great shield pressure with his attacks, a surprisingly good grab game, not lucas weegee or ness good but still useable, probably the least trouble killing out of the whole cast, his moves deal a lot of damage so good damage wracking too, hes got a decent recovery(its gimpable, but its very scary to do so) a decent projectile, a decent anti juggle option in TSRK, easy kill confirms(goes hand in hand with no trouble killing but i cant stress this enough) focus attack is also a very great move, u can see this by the sole fact that ryu has a difficult time against characters with good multihit moves. i mean, unlike quite a lot of people in this thread, i do not think he is quite tier 1 material yet, but in my humble opinion he is easily top 10

I just think it's too early to call him top 10. He was way overhyped. I'd say he's closer to top 15.

 

[Munomario777]

I just think it's too early to call him top 10. He was way overhyped. I'd say he's closer to top 15.

That's no reason to dismiss Ryu's strengths. If you're going to do that, at least provide an actual counterargument.

 

[Xandercosm]

That's no reason to dismiss Ryu's strengths. If you're going to do that, at least provide an actual counterargument.

The counterargument is that, while I agree with what everyone has said about him, I don't think those things are sufficient to make him top 10. As well as the fact that he has many weaknesses to balance out his strengths.

If you want concrete reasons, you can look at this personal list of mine:

1. He has a relatively bad recovery.
2. He has a weak dash grab/grab.
3. He has few throw followups.
4. He doesn't have a kill throw.
5. His dash speed is slow compared to other high/top tiers.
6. He has a bad disadvantage state since his recovery is so linear and slow.
7. His advantage state isn't amazing either, considering he doesn't have much to edge-guard with.
8. Edge-guarding puts him in a bad state due to his weak recovery.
9. He, has kill confirms but few actual, damage-dealing combos.
10. He's still a heavy, many of his moves are laggy for a high/top tier.

All I'm saying is that it's too early to call him top tier. That's the biggest issue with these community-voted tier lists. A character randomly gets hyped for no reason and all of a sudden they're considered top tier. More thought needs to be put into these decisions.

 

[Munomario777]

The counterargument is that, while I agree with what everyone has said about him, I don't think those things are sufficient to make him top 10. As well as the fact that he has many weaknesses to balance out his strengths.

If you want concrete reasons, you can look at this personal list of mine:

1. He has a relatively bad recovery.

He can cover a pretty huge distance, mixup/gain temporary armor with Focus Attack, has multiple options with Tatsu and Shoryuken (especially if you can get the true inputs down), etc.

2. He has a weak dash grab/grab.

Like Zero Suit?

3. He has few throw followups.

Dthrow and uthrow work just fine.

4. He doesn't have a kill throw.

Uthrow kills around 125% IIRC. (And bthrow can kill too, I believe.)

5. His dash speed is slow compared to other high/top tiers.

Which he makes up for with movement tools like Focus Attack and Tatsu.

6. He has a bad disadvantage state since his recovery is so linear and slow.

See above.

7. His advantage state isn't amazing either, considering he doesn't have much to edge-guard with.

Nair, fair, and dair are good for edgeguarding, as is Hadoken in some situations.

8. Edge-guarding puts him in a bad state due to his weak recovery.

See above.

9. He, has kill confirms but few actual, damage-dealing combos.

lolwut

10. He's still a heavy, many of his moves are laggy for a high/top tier.

That's what the weak attacks are for. (Also, the aforelinked video shows that they're quick enough to combo anyway.)

All I'm saying is that it's too early to call him top tier. That's the biggest issue with these community-voted tier lists. A character randomly gets hyped for no reason and all of a sudden they're considered top tier. More thought needs to be put into these decisions.

Judging by the size and content of aεrgiα 's post, it would seem that he did indeed put some thought into it.

 

[aεrgiα]

The counterargument is that, while I agree with what everyone has said about him, I don't think those things are sufficient to make him top 10. As well as the fact that he has many weaknesses to balance out his strengths.

If you want concrete reasons, you can look at this personal list of mine:

1. He has a relatively bad recovery.
2. He has a weak dash grab/grab.
3. He has few throw followups.
4. He doesn't have a kill throw.
5. His dash speed is slow compared to other high/top tiers.
6. He has a bad disadvantage state since his recovery is so linear and slow.
7. His advantage state isn't amazing either, considering he doesn't have much to edge-guard with.
8. Edge-guarding puts him in a bad state due to his weak recovery.
9. He, has kill confirms but few actual, damage-dealing combos.
10. He's still a heavy, many of his moves are laggy for a high/top tier.

All I'm saying is that it's too early to call him top tier. That's the biggest issue with these community-voted tier lists. A character randomly gets hyped for no reason and all of a sudden they're considered top tier. More thought needs to be put into these decisions.

well then, heres my "more thoughts
1. he doesnt have the best recovery, thats true, it would be stupid to say anything otherwise but i wouldnt call it bad by any means; he has multiple options to mix up his recovery which is a great boon, especially at high level play. he can use focus attack(fa) to armour through any one hit move the opponent tries to gimp/spike him with, his fadc lets him change his momentum in the air, and move forwards/backwards too ofc, which is an offstage movement option a lot of characters would be jealous of(yes, i know the first thing that comes to mind is to fadc forwards but fadc backwards is also surprisingly useful, just imagine you have very predictable, linear edguarding moves coming your way(vill bowling ball, falcon dair etc) u can just fadc out of the way, and you have some nifty armour to protect u while doing so )
his hadouken is also an option to cover your recovery with incase u are recovering high, especially because it slightly stalls him in the air. true srk i believe has invincibility frames so if u time ur edgeguard wrong... gg which leads to another point about srk, messing with it is scary because if u mess up, u can die at ~90.
tatsu, while very linear, and "slow" does cover a good amount of distance, although i will say that this move can be quite easy to edgeguard depending on ur character, but nevertheless he still does have a strong hitting hitbox covering him during the move, so its not without risk trying to hit him out of it.

2,3&4. he doesnt have the strongest dash grab thats true, his dash grab is... alright, its definitely useable either way but heres the thing, ryu doesnt go for grabs that much, and its not because his grab game is bad(he has uair to follow up after d-throw for eg.) but because he doesnt need it. and this ties in with points 3 and 4, his throw game isnt threatening yes, but what does that mean? that u can sit in shield versus him? if u really think so, try doing that against any competent ryu player and trust me, u will regret it. his shield pressure and shield breaking options are phenomenal, the only character i know of that can compete is samus, and she loses out imo because she needs a charged CS for shield breaks. and its not just that he can break shield, if he does break your shield he is going to make u regret it big time, TSRK can kill obscenely early, add in the fact that, in the case that u are not quite at kill % yet, he can combo u with utilt strings into srk for the kill, theres also dtilt into srk, fa to dair(i believe its dair) into srk and lastly fully charged fsmash hurts... a lot!

5. yes his ground speed is pretty middle of the pack at 27-28th, his air speed however is 12-13th in the game and guess what his best approach options are... his aerials namely fair and in some situations bair, he also has fadc to make it seem like hes committing but then fade back to bait out an option, and i will also say rosa doesnt have the greatest dash speed but its not holding her back in the slightest tbh.

6. disadvantage is more than just offstage(which i covered in quite a bit of detail(imo) in the first paragraph) but also juggle situations, where he actually has some decent tools, he can use fa to get out of one hit juggle move and the invincibility on tsrk can also allow him to get out of SOME juggle situations. his disadvantage isnt really that bad imo, theres definitely a lot worse.

7. i dont even... how can u say his advantage state isnt that great, yes his offstage game isnt great, but theres way more to advantage than that... he has good combos (refer to munomarios post for that), a lot of which can lead to kills, and he kills pretty early too, so if u mess up it can hurt very bad.

8. once again, i already covered his recovery

9.well first of all, refer to munomarios post for combos, second of all, he only needs to get you to 70-90% and youre already at kill percent, thirdly, even if we remove any combos that he does have, his fair(which is safe on shield) does 15-13% damage when sweetspotted(13% is for the late hitbox) and 9-8% when sourspotted(and his sweetspot is not that hard to hit with). his bair does 16 damage and i believe its also safe on shield, so basically, if u take 5/6 of his most used(outside of combos) aerials, u are already at kill percents so much about not being able to get % on the opponent, and thats leaving out the combos he has...

10. u call him laggy... how? his aerials ac nicely afaik, his jabs, ftilt(light) and dtilt are pretty fast, so is his utilt(but thats very short range), his tsrk has about as much power as lucas usmash and when u compare the lag of the two moves...
sure, u could throw out smash attacks all day, but then ur not playing at a very high level at all.
if u really think he has laggy moves, please look at his frame data again, its not comparable at all to other heavies. and the fact that he is heavy actually just helps him because it means he profits from rage more than others

edit: also Munomario777 while i agree with what u said, just one slight correction, his uthrow doesnt kill at 120% it kills around 200% i believe his backthrow does kill earlier at around 180%, ithink :/ this is ofc without rage which, as a heavy, he profits greatly from :/

 

[Xandercosm]

well then, heres my "more thoughts
1. he doesnt have the best recovery, thats true, it would be stupid to say anything otherwise but i wouldnt call it bad by any means; he has multiple options to mix up his recovery which is a great boon, especially at high level play. he can use focus attack(fa) to armour through any one hit move the opponent tries to gimp/spike him with, his fadc lets him change his momentum in the air, and move forwards/backwards too ofc, which is an offstage movement option a lot of characters would be jealous of(yes, i know the first thing that comes to mind is to fadc forwards but fadc backwards is also surprisingly useful, just imagine you have very predictable, linear edguarding moves coming your way(vill bowling ball, falcon dair etc) u can just fadc out of the way, and you have some nifty armour to protect u while doing so )
his hadouken is also an option to cover your recovery with incase u are recovering high, especially because it slightly stalls him in the air. true srk i believe has invincibility frames so if u time ur edgeguard wrong... gg which leads to another point about srk, messing with it is scary because if u mess up, u can die at ~90.
tatsu, while very linear, and "slow" does cover a good amount of distance, although i will say that this move can be quite easy to edgeguard depending on ur character, but nevertheless he still does have a strong hitting hitbox covering him during the move, so its not without risk trying to hit him out of it.

2,3&4. he doesnt have the strongest dash grab thats true, his dash grab is... alright, its definitely useable either way but heres the thing, ryu doesnt go for grabs that much, and its not because his grab game is bad(he has uair to follow up after d-throw for eg.) but because he doesnt need it. and this ties in with points 3 and 4, his throw game isnt threatening yes, but what does that mean? that u can sit in shield versus him? if u really think so, try doing that against any competent ryu player and trust me, u will regret it. his shield pressure and shield breaking options are phenomenal, the only character i know of that can compete is samus, and she loses out imo because she needs a charged CS for shield breaks. and its not just that he can break shield, if he does break your shield he is going to make u regret it big time, TSRK can kill obscenely early, add in the fact that, in the case that u are not quite at kill % yet, he can combo u with utilt strings into srk for the kill, theres also dtilt into srk, fa to dair(i believe its dair) into srk and lastly fully charged fsmash hurts... a lot!

5. yes his ground speed is pretty middle of the pack at 27-28th, his air speed however is 12-13th in the game and guess what his best approach options are... his aerials namely fair and in some situations bair, he also has fadc to make it seem like hes committing but then fade back to bait out an option, and i will also say rosa doesnt have the greatest dash speed but its not holding her back in the slightest tbh.

6. disadvantage is more than just offstage(which i covered in quite a bit of detail(imo) in the first paragraph) but also juggle situations, where he actually has some decent tools, he can use fa to get out of one hit juggle move and the invincibility on tsrk can also allow him to get out of SOME juggle situations. his disadvantage isnt really that bad imo, theres definitely a lot worse.

7. i dont even... how can u say his advantage state isnt that great, yes his offstage game isnt great, but theres way more to advantage than that... he has good combos (refer to munomarios post for that), a lot of which can lead to kills, and he kills pretty early too, so if u mess up it can hurt very bad.

8. once again, i already covered his recovery

9.well first of all, refer to munomarios post for combos, second of all, he only needs to get you to 70-90% and youre already at kill percent, thirdly, even if we remove any combos that he does have, his fair(which is safe on shield) does 15-13% damage when sweetspotted(13% is for the late hitbox) and 9-8% when sourspotted(and his sweetspot is not that hard to hit with). his bair does 16 damage and i believe its also safe on shield, so basically, if u take 5/6 of his most used(outside of combos) aerials, u are already at kill percents so much about not being able to get % on the opponent, and thats leaving out the combos he has...

10. u call him laggy... how? his aerials ac nicely afaik, his jabs, ftilt(light) and dtilt are pretty fast, so is his utilt(but thats very short range), his tsrk has about as much power as lucas usmash and when u compare the lag of the two moves...
sure, u could throw out smash attacks all day, but then ur not playing at a very high level at all.
if u really think he has laggy moves, please look at his frame data again, its not comparable at all to other heavies. and the fact that he is heavy actually just helps him because it means he profits from rage more than others

edit: also Munomario777 while i agree with what u said, just one slight correction, his uthrow doesnt kill at 120% it kills around 200% i believe his backthrow does kill earlier at around 180%, ithink :/ this is ofc without rage which, as a heavy, he profits greatly from :/

I really liked this response. Very detailed, but, concise. This is a lot more like what I wanted. The thing is, I still feel like he'll never be an S tier character for the reasons I've already stated. I'm excited to see how his meta is explored in the future, though.

 

[Deleted member]

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Changed my tier list from last page around a bit. Here's the changes and notes:

• Miis as always are 1111, default size.
• I'm ever so conflicted where as to put at the top of B tier or in A tier below or above. He has some fantastic results in Japan courtesy of Ranai and other players and his US results have been improving as well, and in general his keep-away and damage racking game are awesome. I guess I'm not really deep into the character like others so if anyone has reason for whether his placing should be higher (or lower) it'd be great.

• has been moved up seven spots to D tier. He's definitely more able than characters like Palutena or Kirby.
  
• has moved down one spot, going from bottom of D tier to top of E tier.
  
• has moved down one spot to top of C tier rather than bottom of B tier. Lack of representation was my reasoning for this, he doesn't really deserve to be in the same tier as R.O.B., the Pits or Peach at the moment, but we'll see as his meta evolves.
  
• is at bottom of E tier, moving two spots from previously being in F tier. Has better MUs than all the other bottom tiers on my list, despite his bad position in the meta currently.
• Switched 's and 's places. Swordfighter is in the low part of E tier, Gunner is in middle of F.

 

[Munomario777]

I really liked this response. Very detailed, but, concise. This is a lot more like what I wanted. The thing is, I still feel like he'll never be an S tier character for the reasons I've already stated. I'm excited to see how his meta is explored in the future, though.

We already invalidated your "reasons," though.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

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F:

Changed my tier list from last page around a bit. Here's the changes and notes:

• Miis as always are 1111, default size.
• I'm ever so conflicted where as to put at the top of B tier or in A tier below or above. He has some fantastic results in Japan courtesy of Ranai and other players and his US results have been improving as well, and in general his keep-away and damage racking game are awesome. I guess I'm not really deep into the character like others so if anyone has reason for whether his placing should be higher (or lower) it'd be great.

• has been moved up seven spots to D tier. He's definitely more able than characters like Palutena or Kirby.
  
• has moved down one spot, going from bottom of D tier to top of E tier.
  
• has moved down one spot to top of C tier rather than bottom of B tier. Lack of representation was my reasoning for this, he doesn't really deserve to be in the same tier as R.O.B., the Pits or Peach at the moment, but we'll see as his meta evolves.
  
• is at bottom of E tier, moving two spots from previously being in F tier. Has better MUs than all the other bottom tiers on my list, despite his bad position in the meta currently.

Just one small gripe I have, but default is definitely better than default , and I feel they should be switched. Otherwise pretty accurate list!

 

[Xandercosm]

We already invalidated your "reasons," though.

Sure you have.

 

[Munomario777]

Sure you have.

You never showed us otherwise.

 

[Xandercosm]

You never showed us otherwise.

I don't believe those were invalidations.

 

[Munomario777]

I don't believe those were invalidations.

invalidate: make (an argument, statement, or theory) unsound or erroneous.

synonyms: disprove, [...]

So for example, when you said that Ryu lacked combos, and then we disproved (a synonym for invalidate) your argument by providing documentation of Ryu's extensive combo ability. Showed it to be erroneous, if you will. Or how for his ground speed, grab game, etc, we showed how said downsides are largely irrelevant (because he has other traits that make up for these, i.e. air speed, FADC, shield breaks), ergo showing your argument to be unsound.

Seems to be an invalidation to me.

 

[Xandercosm]

So for example, when you said that Ryu lacked combos, and then we disproved (a synonym for invalidate) your argument by providing documentation of Ryu's extensive combo ability. Showed it to be erroneous, if you will. Or how for his ground speed, grab game, etc, we showed how said downsides are largely irrelevant (because he has other traits that make up for these, i.e. air speed, FADC, shield breaks), ergo showing your argument to be unsound.

Seems to be an invalidation to me.

I admit, he has combos. Now, it comes down to wether all my other reasons were irrelevant. I don't think they were. Having a bad grab game is pretty important. I think we should probably leave this up to a difference of opinion at this point, though. Honestly, character placements on a tier list almost always come down to opinon (with the exception of Sheik).

Also, I like how when someone posts something disagreeing with me, it gets 7+ likes.

 

[Furret24]

I admit, he has combos. Now, it comes down to wether all my other reasons were irrelevant. I don't think they were. Having a bad grab game is pretty important. I think we should probably leave this up to a difference of opinion at this point, though. Honestly, character placements on a tier list almost always come down to opinon (with the exception of Sheik).

Also, I like how when someone posts something disagreeing with me, it gets 7+ likes.

I think it's obvious who's side people are on here.

I do think he's top tier though. His only real weakness is his grab game. Even then, his throws are still decent (bthrow is a free 12% and kills at 160%).

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

I admit, he has combos. Now, it comes down to wether all my other reasons were irrelevant. I don't think they were. Having a bad grab game is pretty important. I think we should probably leave this up to a difference of opinion at this point, though. Honestly, character placements on a tier list almost always come down to opinon (with the exception of Sheik).

Also, I like how when someone posts something disagreeing with me, it gets 7+ likes.

It's not that we like disagreeing with YOU, we're disagreeing with your misled opinions. It's true that Ryu has a couple of small flaws, but his strengths more than make up for it, making him definitely high tier and possibly top tier. We have proven that multiple times over, but you just didn't seem to notice the counterarguments because you still seem to think that we haven't spoken yet.

 

[aεrgiα]

Just one small gripe I have, but default is definitely better than default , and I feel they should be switched. Otherwise pretty accurate list!

why do you think so? i mean i think i put sword in front of gunner in my list(i dont remember) but i dont think theres much difference between them, in fact, if someone would actually play gunner, i would prob put him above sword, but, courtesy of trela(and a surprising number of other) sword actually has results

 

[Deleted member]

I admit, he has combos. Now, it comes down to wether all my other reasons were irrelevant. I don't think they were. Having a bad grab game is pretty important. I think we should probably leave this up to a difference of opinion at this point, though. Honestly, character placements on a tier list almost always come down to opinon (with the exception of Sheik).

Also, I like how when someone posts something disagreeing with me, it gets 7+ likes.

Because what you said was quite literally objectively wrong and we've had two people rebut what you say thoroughly and you don't want to accept it.

 

[Xandercosm]

None of you seemed bothered by the mass quantity of people posting there personal tier lists, many of them with Ryu in tier 2 or lower.

 

[Furret24]

None of you seemed bothered by the mass quantity of people posting there personal tier lists, many of them with Ryu in tier 2 or lower.

Removed this part here because it's now unnecessary.

 

[Munomario777]

None of you seemed bothered by the mass quantity of people posting there personal tier lists, many of them with Ryu in tier 2 or lower.

Mainly because you're the only one who actually went into detail with your points (which I do appreciate). Ryu being in tier 2? That's a rather subjective matter (especially since the point where tier 1 ends and tier 2 starts is subjective in and of itself). But Ryu not being viable, or having combos, or a good recovery, or grab game, et cetera? That's a bit more objective, and ergo something that can be debated within reason. That, and saying that a character isn't in the very best tier, and saying that he isn't top 10/viable/whatever, are two rather different matters.

 

[Xandercosm]

Mainly because you're the only one who actually went into detail with your points (which I do appreciate). Ryu being in tier 2? That's a rather subjective matter (especially since the point where tier 1 ends and tier 2 starts is subjective in and of itself). But Ryu not being viable, or having combos, or a good recovery, or grab game, et cetera? That's a bit more objective, and ergo something that can be debated within reason. That, and saying that a character isn't in the very best tier, and saying that he isn't top 10/viable/whatever, are two rather different matters.

I never said he wasn't viable. He's completely viable. Just not S tier. I would put him near the end of tier 2. Honestly, it's really just become an argument over a few spaces on a tier list. I think he's closer to top 10, you think he's closer to top 5. We should probably call it quits on the whole thing at this point.

 

[Deleted member]

Time for another small revision of my tier list. T I E R B O Y S

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

More changes:

• , and are above the Pits now.
  
• Decided to move to bottom of B tier once again.
• is at top of C tier. Sorry, buddy.
  
• made a pretty big leap. Used to have him in middle of E (pls don't tell me what I was thinking), but Tweek's results are way too good to ignore.
  
• went from bottom of C tier to top of D tier. It's a better place for him since while he's more able than the other characters below him I can't say he's a solid mid-tier yet until he gets more rep and results in general.

I really hate organizing mid-tiers in general because they're well, the middle. It's much easier to know which are the worse characters and which ones are near the best lol

 

[aεrgiα]

None of you seemed bothered by the mass quantity of people posting there personal tier lists, many of them with Ryu in tier 2 or lower.

well im not bothered by it personally as i also put him in tier 2, but for me tier one ends after 5 characters, and its one thing to say ryu isnt in the best tier(top tier if u want to call it that) and its an entirely different thing to say ryu isnt top 10 material(i put ryu in tier 2, that makes him the 6th best character in my opinion, thats easily top 10))

as for likes, theres two main ways to get them, either u post what the majority think, or if u go against popular opinion, u write a well thought out/detailed post on why you think otherwise and hope that people reading it go: "oh this guy may just be onto something and you know what, in hindsight i agree" or they may just go "i disagree but i like the post" and like it anyway.

either way, i dont see why you should care, likes should not be the thing that changes your opinion, and likes also dont make what you say any more, or less correct, it just means that people agree with it (and ofc we are all happy when people agree with us )

 

[Xandercosm]

Time for another small revision of my tier list. T I E R B O Y S

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

More changes:

• , and are above the Pits now.
  
• Decided to move to bottom of B tier once again.
• is at top of C tier. Sorry, buddy.
  
• made a pretty big leap. Used to have him in middle of E (pls don't tell me what I was thinking), but Tweek's results are way too good to ignore.
  
• went from bottom of C tier to bottom of D tier. It's a better place for him since while he's more able than the other characters below him I can't say he's a solid mid-tier yet until he gets more rep and results in general.

I really hate organizing mid-tiers in general because they're well, the middle. It's much easier to know which are the worse characters and which ones are near the best lol

Poor Kirby in E tier...

 

[IndigoSSB]

I really hate organizing mid-tiers in general because they're well, the middle. It's much easier to know which are the worse characters and which ones are near the best lol

This is why I don't really bother that often with individual tier lists, more often than not they're wrong (Not you specifically, just people in general including me). A tier list should be a ranking based on both results and theories behind the characters, which requires knowledge. I seriously doubt anybody has mastered all 55 characters to the point where they can have a solid opinion on every single one. The result is a tier list solely based on preconceptions or opinion.

Just as an example (sorry, gonna nitpick your list lol), I play a lot of Robin in tournament and I main Falco so I'm pretty knowledgeable about both. Robin does pretty well against other mid to low tiers, but her matchups with almost all of the top-high tiers are terrible or not in her favor. Although Falco also loses to a lot of the top tiers, there are also some matchups where it's closer to even.

EDIT: Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to seeing what the new Backroom produces compared to the community's general consensus.

 

[Deleted member]

This is why I don't really bother that often with individual tier lists, more often than not they're wrong (Not you specifically, just people in general including me). A tier list should be a ranking based on both results and theories behind the characters, which requires knowledge. I seriously doubt anybody has mastered all 55 characters to the point where they can have a solid opinion on every single one. The result is a tier list solely based on preconceptions or opinion.

Just as an example (sorry, gonna nitpick your list lol), I play a lot of Robin in tournament and I main Falco so I'm pretty knowledgeable about both. Robin does pretty well against other mid to low tiers, but her matchups with almost all of the top-high tiers are terrible or not in her favor. Although Falco also loses to a lot of the top tiers, there are also some matchups where it's closer to even.

EDIT: Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to seeing what the new Backroom produces compared to the community's general consensus.

Very fair point there. I'm still iffy in terms of knowledge on characters like or so my viewpoints on them probably don't hold much weight.

 

[aεrgiα]

Very fair point there. I'm still iffy in terms of knowledge on characters like or so my viewpoints on them probably don't hold much weight.

ill be honest and say im iffy on even more characters than two i mean theres a lot of chars in this game, with very diverse metas, which only gets worse when u look at other scenes from different regions or even countries.

if ur looking for some really good wii fit gameplay, waveguider shows what the character is capable of very well imo (sorry if u already knew )

 

[TimG57867]

Very fair point there. I'm still iffy in terms of knowledge on characters like or so my viewpoints on them probably don't hold much weight.

I personally don't care much for individual tier lists but your placing of just bothers me. While his neutral is bad, he makes up for it with a good CQC and has crouch which certain force foes to approach. His juggle and crouch in particular allow him to perform surprisingly well against several top and high tiers. Plus he has Inhale which can fix his neutral completely turn a matchup in his favor and since 1.10 he now has reliable setups into it. Not to mention he has practicallly no landing lag on his aerials.

On top of that, his results, while being far from stellar, are still much better several the characters you have him ranked under. He's gotten Top 50 at Apex, placed well in several KTARs, showed his counterpick potential at Super Smash Con where Smash God used him to defend his from Bengal's , has TwoMix who's been getting success in Germany with him, and almost made Top 32 at TBH5. With all that in mind I fail to see why you don't have him as at least D-Tier and above ,,, or who all are either objectively worse in the metagame or have less rep and results. Seriously though, you have Bowser Jr. rated that high even though MikeKirby places about as well as Tweek and is also able to keep up with top level players (Vinnie, Nairo, Larry Lurr, etc.) while Kirby also has multiple competitive reps. Speaking of which, I think you got Jr. rated too high.

Edit: Didn't realize that I didn't put certain before force. Obviously, the crouch isn't effective against EVERY character but it's useful against many.

 

[Routa]

...has crouch which force foes to approach.

Since when has Kirby's crouch forced people to approach? I have never understood this. I mean I get how Wario's Waft forces foe to approach (you don't want to give him free time to charge it), but crouching? I mean does Link's Hylian Shield force people to approach? Nah. Then what forces? Projectiles. Could you enlighten us?