The "All Items Play" Support Thread

[-Giga-]

Hmm? I'm really confused on this one.
Both of the options take skill.

You can be expirienced as without items, but if you turn them on, you could notice your in a lot of trouble.
With the items on, you have to learn to dodge and maneuver around the items. That's skill alone.

Some people might say, with the items on, its a cheap KO. The enemy gets a hammer, KO's you, then gets a Bat for the next round. Some say thats cheap. But if you know how to avoid the items, and use them properly, that makes it better for everyone.

 

[BEES]

If people want to hold items tournaments, who am I to say they can't?

 

[Darkurai]

WARNING: THIS IS NOT A PLACE FOR ITEM HATERS OR NON ITEM COMPETITION ELITISTS TO COME AND START FLAMING AND CRITICIZING ITEM PLAY. IF YOU DON'T HAVE AT LEAST SOME INTEREST IN THIS MOVEMENT, JUST GET OUT OF HERE!

Translation: You are not allowed to disagree.

In a 4 or 5 stock match a situation like that would not define the winner.

And what if it was the last stock? Then what?

But I don't really think this is supposed to be a game about skill anyways. It's not meant to be at least.
So, yeah, you're right. I am sorta dependent on items. But I don't play this game competitively, so that's probably it.

Stupidest statement ever. Tournaments are completely based around skill. If you have no interest in playing the game competitively, do not discuss tournament rules.

Me too. My favorite type of matches are 5 stock FFA matches, all items, all stages.

Team battles, Friendly Fire OFF are also amazing. Smash Brawl in all of its splendor!

Then feel free to play that way! Go ahead, no one will stop you! Just keep in mind that this will never be a tournament standard.

That proves that giving certain conditions (number of stocks for example) skill overcome luck and randomness given by items.
I won every single match.

The phrase "I won every single match" could easily be used against you here. Maybe you won every match because of items.

Since when are items competitive and could be used in serious tournaments?
I am posting here because I believe items make the game more fun. I think that's basically what the whole topic is about.

The topic is about items in tournaments. Read the first post plz.

Items do not introdude luck, they introduce a randomly changing scenario which the challenge is to adapt to.

Random is the exact opposite of what you want in tournaments.

If people want to hold items tournaments, who am I to say they can't?

You can't say that they can't. The thing is, no one will attend.
This is the most important point.

The vast majority of the Smash Bros. Competitive community does not like items. They will not go to a tournament with items. So much animosity towards items has appeared over the last few years that even if the Back Room rules items to be fair, people aren't going to care about that and are just going to play without them anyway. Sure, you'll get a few people who play with items in tournaments, but the grand majority will not.

 

[Frown]

I like items and I usually play with them, though there are some that I always turn off.

Dragoon - Spawns WAAAY to often, and people start concentrating on the parts rather than fighting.
Star - Always spawns next to someone and the fight turns into a chase.
Franklin Badge - I have never seen an instance where this item as affected the battle. It's tiny and it looks annoying.

 

[Chagen46]

An epic amount of Fail.

Fail.

There are still people like you, who cant take the fact that some people have opinions, and think that everyone must think you do, or you're going to PMS like crazy.

Wow.

 

[Darkurai]

Fail.

There are still people like you, who cant take the fact that some people have opinions, and think that everyone must think you do, or you're going to PMS like crazy.

Wow.

This thread is not about pure opinion, as you can't seem to grasp. The first post is about items in a tournament. Why would you specifically reference a tournament unless you were trying to get people to accept items into tournament play?

And then when people argued against items in tournament play, the TC didn't say "No, you misunderstoo, this topic is about item play in general, not item play in tournaments." He argued for items in tournaments.

You are the one with epic fail. A thread is supposed to be about discussion. In this thread, we are quite obviously discussing whether items are viable for tournament play.

The people like you are going too far. "I HAVE AN OPINION. IF YOU DISAGREE WITH MY OPINION YOU'RE WRONG." Opinions are what discussions and debates are based on. If everyone just says "You're right I completely agree" and leaves it at that, it's not much of a discussion.

 

[MarKO X]

True, that's kind of a bad argument.

Anyway, short version of why no items:

Take 2 players, nearly equally skilled, same characters or neutral characters(the match up is nearly 50/50).

The match will basically depend on luck. So, instead of playing Brawl, you're playing "roll the dice".

Each player takes 3 dice, rolls it, and whoever gets the highest number of dots, wins.

Now, obviously, skill matters but items introduces luck which can quickly turn a match in favor of one another(see above).

Instead of bothering with items, it's just easiest just to ban items all together, and don't worry about items introducing luck into the game.

Okay, so I get your point: you don't want randomness in competition.
However, if you have two people of equal skill and using the same character, that right there, is a coin flip, aka random or lucky, as you don't know who's gonna win. You said it yourself, 50/50, so don't tell me luck won't be involved with that. Of course, that's assuming both players use the same playstyle... but equal skill =/= equal playstyle. As we all know, if someone plays too agressively against someone who plays too defensively in Brawl, that right sways the 50/50 to something like 40/60 because, well, this is Brawl. Of course, at the same time, without items, there will be no outside force (aka randomness of items) to determine the outcome of that match.

Now, say we have the same situation, two equally skill players using the same character. However, we also have the two different styles of play, agressive vs. defensive. With items on a low spawn, the agressive player now has a bit more of a chance against the defensive player, as now this character will have items to get the player to move around to avoid certain items, attack without getting punished because of broken defense, and the defensive player might go out and decide to fight to obtain an item him/herself.

High spawn of items, and medium spawn to some extent, is basically a dice roll. Low spawn will allow the more skilled player to win 4 out of 5 times. And since you gotta win 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5, I like those odds. So yeah, I still think competitive items play should be considered.

Besides, it's a very exciting fight to watch.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Guys, I ended this thread last page. You must have missed it.

 

[Kalm]

Seriously, we've already got the link from Jack to the thread that actually isn't stupid. And now we have the "I'm going to quote a crap load of people and show them how dumb they sound" post from Darkurai.

I've got plenty of opinions about items but I didn't get here fast enough, thread is over.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Items are bad. Let me ask you something: What skill is involved in grabbing Pokeballs and ATs, using Recovery Items at 300%, or blowing people up with Smart Bombs? None. Without items, the unknown factor is gone and the game is actually a test of skill instead of a test of luck.

Your post is nonsense. You don't deserve my time. Really.. Do I really have to explain this or could you just think a little bit?

this Thread Is Not About Pure Opinion, As You Can't Seem To Grasp. The First Post Is About Items In A Tournament. Why Would You Specifically Reference A Tournament Unless You Were Trying To Get People To Accept Items Into Tournament Play?

And Then When People Argued Against Items In Tournament Play, The Tc Didn't Say "no, You Misunderstoo, This Topic Is About Item Play In General, Not Item Play In Tournaments." He Argued For Items In Tournaments.

you Are The One With Epic Fail. A Thread Is Supposed To Be About Discussion. In This Thread, We Are Quite Obviously Discussing Whether Items Are Viable For Tournament Play.

The People Like you Are Going Too Far. "i Have An Opinion. If You Disagree With My Opinion You're Wrong." Opinions Are What Discussions And Debates Are Based On. If Everyone Just Says "you're Right I Completely Agree" And Leaves It At That, It's Not Much Of A Discussion.

You Are **** Wrong! This Topic Is Not About That. There Is Already A Topic On That. Get Out Of Here, Please.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalm View Post
Seriously, we've already got the link from Jack to the thread that actually isn't stupid. And now we have the "I'm going to quote a crap load of people and show them how dumb they sound" post from Darkurai.

I've got plenty of opinions about items but I didn't get here fast enough, thread is over.
The thread is not over. YOU are over. Get out of here. You closed minded non item players are pissing me off, This thread is not for you.. get out!!!


I am happy to meet some people in here that understand what I am talking about. It has always been the same discussion. This guy they think they know a lot and don't respect people with a different perspective. I was clear on the first post about the reason of this thread and they still come here flaming and giving the same stupid reasons that have been discussed before:

- The kill by a noob trauma.
- The "Items don't require skill" syndrome.
- The "its luck, not skill" theory.
- The "critical moment ruined by an item".

Yes, we know all that. And we have argued against that before , but you don't want to understand because your are closed to your ideas. It is ok. This thread is not for you and that is it.

Is there a link to that Evo something tournament that was held with items? I will be rescuing some links to good item tournaments and post them here. Good friendlies are welcomed too.

Translation: You are not allowed to disagree.



And what if it was the last stock? Then what?



Stupidest statement ever. Tournaments are completely based around skill. If you have no interest in playing the game competitively, do not discuss tournament rules.



Then feel free to play that way! Go ahead, no one will stop you! Just keep in mind that this will never be a tournament standard.



The phrase "I won every single match" could easily be used against you here. Maybe you won every match because of items.



The topic is about items in tournaments. Read the first post plz.



Random is the exact opposite of what you want in tournaments.



You can't say that they can't. The thing is, no one will attend.
This is the most important point.

The vast majority of the Smash Bros. Competitive community does not like items. They will not go to a tournament with items. So much animosity towards items has appeared over the last few years that even if the Back Room rules items to be fair, people aren't going to care about that and are just going to play without them anyway. Sure, you'll get a few people who play with items in tournaments, but the grand majority will not.

1. You really need someone to put you in your place. This is my thread and I know what is it about. And you are ruining it.

2. What if it is the last stock? So you think a match is about the last stock? What the about the first stock lost? Every stock is important in the final result. To think that that last moment is the important, is an illusion. Do you get it?

3. I didn't say anyone would stop me of playing the way I like. I wanted Item Play in general, supporters, not a guy like you posting in here.

4. So you say I won every single match because of items. Then I was the most skilled. Then it is competitive. Your statement IS AGAINST YOU.

5. What you say about tournament, I already know. I want to gather those who like Item battles competitively. The story I wrote has nothing to do with the whole spirit of this thread. I suggest you get out of here too.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Please, delete this.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Please delete this. I wish I could.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Delete this. Sorry.

 

[Darkurai]

You Are **** Wrong! This Topic Is Not About That. There Is Already A Topic On That. Get Out Of Here, Please.

Now, now, rudeness and foul language won't get you anywhere.

If so, then I must ask why you used a tournament as an example? And why you didn't correct people to begin with?

Just for the record, I have no problems at all with items in casual play.

And seriously, man. Read the rules. Quadruple posting is quite against the rules. People won't take you seriously if you don't take the forum rules seriously.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

You came to our Sanctuary, to get a fight.

Now, now, rudeness and foul language won't get you anywhere.

If so, then I must ask why you used a tournament as an example? And why you didn't correct people to begin with?

Just for the record, I have no problems at all with items in casual play.

And seriously, man. Read the rules. Quadruple posting is quite against the rules. People won't take you seriously if you don't take the forum rules seriously.

I wanted to share an experience that to me proves that item play is competitive. So those who like item play as I do can feel good and relieved that when they win consistently in item play, is because they are skilled, and not lucky as so many others like you, that shouldn't be posting here, think.

 

[Xsyven]

You have every right to have an opinion, but please don't quadruple post anymore. Use the edit button.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Your post is nonsense. You don't deserve my time. Really.. Do I really have to explain this or could you just think a little bit?

I'll explain it once you learn to edit your posts.

 

[stratele]

hmmm I turn them off, pritty much all the time. Somtimes, just for fun ill only include like 5 or 6 items. My favourite onse.

But online, there off. Because they can ruin things. Like bombs spawing infront of you when your fireing something like mario's fireball for instance. Nothing you can do about that.

When I go online, I turn them off, but if they are on during the game. I won't hesitated to use them. Because their there. I'm not going to ignore them, thus giving the others an advantage.

If there was a tourney that had items on, that wouldn't turn me away from it.

I just prefer no items.

 

[Kalm]

The thread is not over. YOU are over. Get out of here. You closed minded non item players are pissing me off, This thread is not for you.. get out!!!

I didn't even make an opinion about items and you're accusing me. You think I have to be an item hater to hate this thread? Have you even looked at Jack's thread? I seriously am not going to argue the pros and cons of items in this thread or respect the weirdos that worship items like you guys do. There's a ton of things wrong with all of this that even Darkurai didn't point out.
Go hang out somewhere else or else change this thread to something that can make sense and exist without being laughed at.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

You have every right to have an opinion, but please don't quadruple post anymore. Use the edit button.

How do I multiquote? That's the problem I am having.

Why do you give me an infraction without ever talking to me, or warning me?

Last time a thread of mine was closed without even a warning. You moderators should be a little more polite and speak first. I didn't even know that quadruple posting was a fault if I was quoting different things.

 

[Kalm]

To Multiquote, you click the MQ button on each post you want to post, and it will highlight the button. When you get to the last post you want to quote, you click the regular quote button while the other posts are highlighted.

 

[Darkurai]

How do I multiquote? That's the problem I am having.

Why do you give me an infraction without ever talking to me, or warning me?

Last time a thread of mine was closed without even a warning. You moderators should be a little more polite and speak first. I didn't even know that quadruple posting was a fault if I was quoting different things.

They don't need to. The forum rules are specifically listed, and you are expected to know them. No exceptions.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I didn't even make an opinion about items and you're accusing me. You think I have to be an item hater to hate this thread? Have you even looked at Jack's thread? I seriously am not going to argue the pros and cons of items in this thread or respect the weirdos that worship items like you guys do. There's a ton of things wrong with all of this that even Darkurai didn't point out.
Go hang out somewhere else or else change this thread to something that can make sense and exist without being laughed at.

Thanks for teaching me to multiquote. But I don't know why you come here to fight against us. So this thread is for you to laugh. Yes, that discussion is over there. This thread is to discuss other things like how to set other rules so item play is more competitive. To share tournament and matches videos. To talk about how we think Item play is competitive and better. Get it?

I won't change it because of you. Just don't come in here and things will be better.

 

[Kalm]

This thread is to discuss other things like how to set other rules so item play is more competitive.

I won't change it because of you. Just don't come in here and things will be better.

1v1 items can be very competitive and not ruin the game. That is, if not all the items are turned on. Sorry, but any argument against items like smash balls and starmans not being too powerful for competitve play is just fail. I'm really **** good, but there is only so much you can do. I mean, yeah you can dodge a Landmaster if you're WAY better than the opponent, but if it's too people that are close to skill, then the randomness will stick out way more.
That is why I like Jack's thread better, it embraces item play, but in a realistic way. I like the idea of having about half of the items turned on. Just don't turn on crap like poke balls and assist trophies unless it's for fun.

 

[Corigames]

Fail.

There are still people like you, who cant take the fact that some people have opinions, and think that everyone must think you do, or you're going to PMS like crazy.

Wow.

No, you shut up and listen and read what he had to say.

Not once did he say that you couldn't either throw your own tournament or at least have fun with items in your own time. Not once did he flame you for having a different opinion. Not once did he tell you that you are all wrong in your opinion about items. No. It is you guys that are saying that you can't have a dissenting opinion. No one can disagree or they are being a jerk/elitist.

Stop trying to be as whole immature as you possibly can because people don't share the same opinion as you on the internet, especially so when you go up in arms about a guy who wasn't rude in the slightest bit to you. You make me sick.