The Brawl-Melee Debate: A Different View

[Eggm]

Brawl has less mindgames, and requires less thought than melee no arguments.

 

[Yuna]

Did you miss the entire point about character specific strategies? Its no longer about a general technique that will be the final solution to all your problems, go find a character that has approaches YOU like and use that character. I use Diddy Kong, I have zero problem finding approaches, none, actually, I think its easy as hell.

It's not about having easy approaches, it's about the fact that even if you can approach in this game, your approach will still be quite lacking since there's still no shieldpressure or mixup opportunities on block. You can only approach by spacing your aerials properply, air controlling out of shieldgrab range while doing a move or do soundly unsafe things which will cause you to get shieldgrabbed/shieldhop aerialed or even shielddrop jabbed/tilted/smashed in the face.

And did I even make approach the main point of my argument? My main argument was that the game is lacking even on hit. Yes, you can approach as certain characters. But what for? Even if you hit them, the game engine doesn't really allow you to punish them that hard.

But, I also use Snake now, and guess what, he has a pretty solid approach game too. And there are more than just these two characters who have strong approach games, you just simply need to learn that.

I'm sorry, but what could Snake possibly have that is good for approaching? I mean, he's got things that are fast and could be used to "surprise" people. But what do you use for approaching with him, anyway? On block, pretty everything he has is punishable (quite horribly).

That you find it difficult to hit people and that you find it annoying that you have to fight for every hit isn't a weakness on Brawls part, its a weakness on your own.

Have you played any other fighting games competitively? And also, please take in the big picture here. It's hard to hit people, it's hard to combo them, it's hard to punish people for mistakes because the game's scales are tipped in the hit-person's favour. In a scale of Competitive Gaming, this is a tip towards "Bad".

I don't play Tekken because the punishing possibilities in that game are just so huge. I instead play games that focus less on huge punishers and more on pure mindgames. However, Brawl is just so... so. It's not that I have to mindgame that annoys me, it's that even if I "mindgame" them, it's not like I'll have a huge advantage.

You launch someone, then what? Your chances for even comboing them once or twice are much less than theirs to recover.

I don't have any problem working for every single hit in a game, I don't think Chillin probably has any problem with this either, yet for some reason, you turn turn Final Smashes off but think auto-combo's that were in Melee should return, when in reality they are almost one in the same!

Are you seriously comparing Final Smashes to "auto-combos"? Remember, I played as Peach, she doesn't really have auto-combos. I liked her style. Yes, I was annoyed by some characters' "auto-combos" (and, really, there was not a single "auto-combo" that guaranteed a 0-death KO unless you were ICs or possibly G&W's chaingrab on fastfallers... and I played PAL).

The auto-combos in Melee weren't that horrible. Horrible, yes. Final Smash-level or even close to it? Not a chance. I never said Melee was perfect. In fact, I disliked a lot of things about it (I'm not some blind fanboy). However, that doesn't mean Brawl can't possibly have flaws either.

Brawl's changes were mixed blessings. Some were good, others bad. The lack of hitstun and shieldstun is bad.

Play with Final Smashes if you really want stocks to end faster or are really that frustrated with landing hits, a Final Smash is just your Ken Combo in Melee, with less button inputs and room for error (on the technical side of the game, in terms of thinking, a Ken Combo and a Final Smash are on near equal ground).

I play PAL, a.k.a. Melee 2.0 (with more balancing). The Ken Combo is easily meteor canceled.

 

[Yuna]

And no, sorry, peoples opinions and arguments can't be disqualified even if you find one faulty weakspot in an argument. At the very least because you're fuuuull of shiiit *danuh~!* and at the most because people change, and adapt; that is the party trick of the human being, much like the bird can fly and the fish can swim. You'll very often find yourself starring other peoples weaknesses back in the mirror when you look at it; a high low game wouldn't help it at all. Proof? I go by statistics and tactical analysis, not theory fighter.

You use statistics and tactical analysis? As opposed to me who does it all the time? And since when is theory fighter not based on stastistis and tactical analysis?

Where would you get a chance to use a low move, for example? Would it matter when you could grab anyway~? Theres no reason to not grab if they're on the floor; you can't tech throws at all, and thats the main reason you're offered an alternative to just throwing via sweeping people. A mid game wouldn't change much at all, because quite frankly if brawl has no hit stun, that defeats the purpose of mid and high being classified differently.

1) You can tech throws. It's just hard. It's Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 hard since you have to grab them on pretty much the exact same frame as they grab you.
2) There's no reason to grab if they're on the floor? How about spotdodging? They can just spotdodge if they think you'll grab and it'll, gasp, magically whiff.
3) However, if they instead predict you'll do a move, you could mix it up with a low instead of a mid/overhead move to get them to block it wrong. With a high-mid-low system, you have more mixups, without it, you have less. Having a High-Mid-Low system does in no way get rid of your ability to also throw. In fact, people also mixup with throws.
4) You run up to someone and shield-cancel. They know they can't hit you before you can hit them, so they block. A High-Mid-Low system would force them to guess. Without it, they can block anything guaranteed (that isn't a fully charged shieldbreaking move or a grab). So even without shieldstun, High-Mid-Low would help.
5) Seriously, you claim to play other fighting games Competitively and that you employ "statistics and tachnical analysis".

Air to ground transition with combos only becomes a guaranteed affair in 2D fighters if you strike the stomach, not the head. Else your Ryu's jumping MK won't link to his shoryuken, for example. This is irrelivant due to lack of hitstun, and I'm not sure it mattered in Melee if you struck mid or high anyway.

I'm sorry, what? "Stomach, not the head"? Is this code?

Did you mean to say "Mid, not overhead"? I present to you the one bazillion overheads in, among others, Guilty Gear that launch. Street Figher was never about launchers, as opposed to later games like GG and MB.

And what does it have to do with anything, anyway?

My view on the IC chain was merely akin to spellmans, to test every possible approach and counter measure before calling the alarm on it. Whether I expressed that well or not, I don't really give a **** because such rudeness as yours doesn't deserve my grace.

"Your grace"? And why is my rudeness so unforgivable? At least I didn't start out my posting carrer here on Smashboards flaming and openly insulting (using expletives and bleeped words) Competitive Smashers, "Melee-preferers" and a ton of other "groups" of people.

I just mock you when you're obviously wrong, you routinely insulted people directly without even being able to back up why they were wrong. You just insulted them because you disagreed with them.

 

[SiegKnight]

I was about to say something akin to 'Thanks for actually giving me a logical response and attempting to prove your point, I'll come back with a retort of my own, and yes, solid points. I'm suprised.' but then I read the last line. I hope you get cancer

to the rest of your post... uh, well, what I was gonna say still stands. It shows you're at least capable of using that head on your shoulders for something else than insults, and I appreciate the reasoning.

I do have to say though, teching capability doesn't matter if its not practical. I currently do not see the risk/reward factor for a blockable sweep that'd count as a low move as a good substitute for a pivot or dash grab. Remember that practicality matters more than technicality to a good player, though they both take priority and feed off one another. If it is technically possible, but has only a 2-3 frame window, and its so easy to bait into one and make the other guy miss or whiff their tech - bad in its own right - then its kinda useless.

Its that line between practicality and technicality which blurs and becomes grey, and it is my motivation for disregarding theory fighter, though you make better use of it than 99% of tards despite the grey bits.

I'm talking entirely practically. The rest I'll respond to properly when I can be *****. Thanks for speaking to me like an equal for once, thats a step up for you.

 

[mangodurban]

yuna, you have the ability to air dodge also, you have the ability to shield right infront of there shield, wait for them to tryand grab you, and use their lean and grab them. YOu can jump behind them while turning around and grab them quickly, you can mindgame them to go for an attack out of there shield and punish that, these things do not define the games competitveness. It defines the player trying to beat it. In boxing, The brown bomber (who had the hardests hits and amazing offence, faought a german fighter who took his undefeated title by playing defensively, blocking all headshots, and tiring out the bomber(all nine rounds of defence). This is what campers do, it tires you, but the problem is the strategies have not yet fully developed (even though I have no problem with camping and wreck it everytime with G&W key to the back or something like that). The bomber was determined to rematch and win, so the bomber trained for a year and worked on his footing and his speed to defeat the defensive technique (he already had the strongest punch) and became one of the best boxers ever known. He went back to germany and won in the first round by knockout. Now, did the germans campy strategy ruin the competitveness of boxing? Did the fans who bet thousands of dollars request their money back because it was unfair? No, the bomber had to have a commitment to beat camping, and with practice and determination he pulled it off. Its so strange how much this moment in history is so on topic...

 

[Yuna]

I'm talking entirely practically. The rest I'll respond to properly when I can be *****. Thanks for speaking to me like an equal for once, thats a step up for you.

I'll reply to your complete reply regarding what I wrote.

The only reason why I treated you like an ******* before was because you were being an *******. My first reply to you was a quote of a post in which you insulted a good portion of these boards. All the post consisted of were expletives, swear words and insults hurled at people for simply not liking the game or playing it "wrong".

You didn't quote anyone and try to refute them. You didn't address specific (faulty) arguments regularly occuring on these boards. You just insulted people. And then you followed that post up by another similar one. And I routinely see you doing that exact same thing, hurling insults left and right without providing a reason.

I never openly insult people. I'm just naturally sarcastic and razor-sharp. And when I have a go at people, it's only when they aren't just wrong but are wrong and go about expressing their opinion wrong.

Them: "Final Smashes should be used in Competitive play because they are balanced"
Me: "No they're not. And here's why."

Them: "Final Smashes should be used in Competitive play because they are balanced and anyone who says otherwise just sucks and can't adapt."
Me: "O RLY? How are we supposed to adapt to... why would you even... have you even played this game..., etc., etc., etc."

I have never insulting anyone, directly or indirectly, simply for either disagreeing with me or saying something I disagreed with. You have.

You can argue intelligently sometimes and you have. The problem is that you often do many of the things you claim I do and condemn me for. That's hypocritical.

 

[Silas06]

just say "pot --> kettle", that's how i do it Yuna ;D

 

[Yuna]

just say "pot --> kettle", that's how i do it Yuna ;D

I have... at least twice. He took offense.

 

[Lixivium]

I have to say I am really warming up to Brawl a lot more than even a month ago (and I don't even own the game), but I still don't buy some of these arguments:

1) "Give Brawl time"

Yes, it took up to several years for people to discover and implement techniques like L-canceling and wavedashing in Melee, but the difference with Brawl is that the very engine of the game itself is designed to limit what you can do with any given character. People may not have known about "advanced techs" a year after Melee came out, but the game itself had features and options like L-cancelling that made these possible. Brawl has no such thing that we know of and I won't hold breath because, well, as you said, Brawl isn't Melee.

Citing moonwalking really does not help your case here. In fact it illustrates that any future "advanced techs" people find in Brawl are likely to be comparable to moonwalking: highly character-specific, possibly impressive, but only marginally useful at best.

2) "Can't approach? Switch chars!"

Well so much for Brawl's vaunted "balance" then. And if approaching isn't viable then by definition the game degenerates into at least defensive camping. Maybe not necessarily the egregious, Overswarm vs. Jiano-style camping, but still (at least to me) a more tedious and less satisfying style of play.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I have to say I am really warming up to Brawl a lot more than even a month ago (and I don't even own the game), but I still don't buy some of these arguments:
2) "Can't approach? Switch chars!"

Well so much for Brawl's vaunted "balance" then. And if approaching isn't viable then by definition the game degenerates into at least defensive camping. Maybe not necessarily the egregious, Overswarm vs. Jiano-style camping, but still (at least to me) a more tedious and less satisfying style of play.

Agreed. One thing I find that is hard to argue against is that the defensive play of Brawl is far greater than in melee. Characters such as Wolf who despite having little strategy available to them are extremely powerful simply because it is incredibly difficult to to approachy them. Heck even characters such as Marth, Sonic have problems approaching him simply because the defensive option is so incredibly good.

Granted what he says is somewhat true that you should switch since after all in melee this was the same thing. Choosing another character that could compete with Marth (exaggeration). Which is why it wasn't uncommon for peope to use two mains in melee. it wasn't surprising if someone chose a different character in order to make up for what their previous main lacked, however, in brawl even when you switch you'll stil have issues.

If you're facing a Wolf with decent skill and you know you are far more skilled with Sonic than he is with Wolf, you'll still lose simply because its difficult to approach and even when you do he often knocks you away and forces you back to square 1.
So you switch to MK and again while you can approach its hard to get close to actually hit him and get close for a short combo without getting hit along the way.

 

[SiegKnight]

man, off topic entirely but final smashes would be great if sakurai wasn't a complete idiot and didn't put infinite camp time on them, not to mention making them freeze everything upon activation. if there was a narrow, narrow frame window of movement so you could activate invincibility via downdodge, or hell, at least let it run out, it'd be great.

as it is though, fs's are useless. you can't even knock them out of people due to the invincibility frames.

I'm a daring guy. Like, I don't mind that he beefed up the invince frames or powered them up; what sucks most is that they can camp forever until they're sure you're vulnerable and theres no possibility you imput an air dodge or down dodge.

They break the game and I can see that. Its sad too, it'd have made an awesome alternate tourney format if sakurai wasn't a complete tard. Haha I wanna hack the game and put all the e for all **** back in. T_T

Aye though, I'll retort to your points more diligently when I have a bit more time. All in all though, I don't think this game can be anything like what melee was. People naturally have a satisfaction out of overcoming technical barriers. Everyone loves just frame uppercuts in tekken, everyone loves jump cancels in any orthodox 1p action game or any fighting game. Its just a comfort zone to people. Its no suprise to me someone like Azen feels Brawl is awesome; he's almost entirely psychological.

m2k on the other hand dislikes it, likely because he's a smasher who loves all of what the game is, not just its psychological aspects but also the technicality and drive to refine ones technique. No wonder he's bored stiff enough to make spreadsheets, as he admitted on AIB. Its more discouraging that alot of ninty games are incredibly kiddy these days in framework, just... very ridicolously easy to master. You can worry that brawl won't develop to be decent because of it.

Its a really bad scare tactic Sakurai put on players, and worse because, like street fighter, its a game of psychology and strength. You need a strong mind to play without techniques to give you a crutch vs people who don't know their way around the framework. In SF, I get very nervous, lose easily and totally get destroyed with things on the line; theres nothing in SF to make me techy or high above people, its a very bare bones game aside from a few esoteric tricks. Your strong mentality is your weapon in street fighter, and it seems to be in brawl.

But its really hard to get that sort of immense courage when it not only used to be a game that let your tech skill suffice for that, but is also being buttered up to be a kids game.

I assure you brawl will be ridicolously psychological, and the defense techniques will only work in your favor once you've figured someone out entirely, and tear them apart. Its brawls simplicity which is working against it in our favor to make a blank slate; we can space how we want and create all sorts of tech chase traps, and ****. You have to change your strategy against an unrefined player to just kill them the normal way of course, but... You get where I'm going.

All this must be incredibly confusing for the smash community as a transformation of game style though, and I really really sympathise. No one wants their favourite game to change, and I won't laugh at you or say you can't adapt with no logical basis or backing facts. I'll admit it. Change in fighting games sucks. Don't fix whats not broken.

Its good that the result could very well turn out awesome anyway but, its gonna be a rough trot, and it sucks to the melee vets that melee is what it is... The only one of its kind, forever, perhaps.

Since you've admitted I at least have some know how on all this, does this sound to you a valid argument as to why I think Brawls an interesting game? I mean, in comparison with all the 'adapt lolz' arguments and all the backouts people have taken when proven melee had a superior punishment game.

I'm running very strict simulations of Brawls framework in my head to figure out how it could turn out, when I say all this, too, and I've been practicing all day, I should add. So, I don't think I'm making **** up at all.

 

[Yuna]

You mentioned nothing Melee didn't have all the while mentioning that Brawl is watered down technically. So you're basically saying Brawl is a watered down version of Melee?

Because, really, we could tech chase people quite well in Melee. Just like with Brawl, it required us to predict their techs. If you mean "airtechchasing", then it's still a lot harder to do now... and who'd fall for it often enough for you to combo them well at high levels of play? And since when couldn't we space in Melee?

 

[SiegKnight]

air tech chasing. Sorry. And yeah, plenty fall for it; you need to set it up so you can fast fall and chase them. This is where I like the strategy in brawl. Because its so easy to airdodge, I even compared it to an infinite burst in the sense you did; but the fact its so hard to punish really, really intrigues me. I can rack up damage due to my constant analysis' of lagless aerials built to let me fast fall and follow up if they airdodge down. Even so, its an uphill battle to play like this, but I really like that uphill strategy purely because its so challenging to work against the game like that.

uh, onto the actual explanation, though...

Yep, you could space in melee; thing is, melee was a complex game and is currently built better as a fighter with in built options. You can space in brawl, but the thing is, its a huge focus of the game this time, purely because your options are less elsewhere. This is where practicality and technicality conflict again; like the fact, you could have a tech for throws, but if its not a practical enough throw tech frame window, its not useful. If you can space in melee, but grabbing someone with ICs for a wobble infinite or comboing someone into a waveshine are better or at least viable options, spacing loses its focus a little because it isn't as practical.

Not as much as teching does under that example, but a visible ammount of focus it loses indeed.

Since now, spacing is the best option practically, we can create all sorts of traps purely based off the hitboxes of moves and how they interact with your opponents choices.

Spacing was a vital and integral part of the Melee framework, and thats something I won't argue with you about; argue that, and I concede. Because its true. But it was a means to an end there. You used it to create openings for other strategies, and playing footsies all day was rarely pivotal and the only thing in the game.

This is where I compare it to almost bare naked street fighter, what with its spacing centric gameplay.

 

[Ulevo]

Definitely a nice read. I agree with your wall of literature. Despite our current condition in Brawl's community where we do have a substantial amount of players to pool experience and knowledge from, we still have much to learn, regardless of how smart or experience we think we are. And although this game is without "combos" and promotes a defensive style of play, or so it is thought, it is simply something we all need adjusting to.

On another note, please check your PM box. I sent you a message that I would like some feed back on, if you wouldn't mind.

EDIT: Yuna, I also wish to send you a PM, but it says your Box is full. Cherishing all the flame mail, huh? XD

 

[Yuna]

air tech chasing. Sorry. And yeah, plenty fall for it; you need to set it up so you can fast fall and chase them. This is where I like the strategy in brawl. Because its so easy to airdodge, I even compared it to an infinite burst in the sense you did; but the fact its so hard to punish really, really intrigues me. I can rack up damage due to my constant analysis' of lagless aerials built to let me fast fall and follow up if they airdodge down. Even so, its an uphill battle to play like this, but I really like that uphill strategy purely because its so challenging to work against the game like that.

Or you might just fail miserably if your opponent isn't an idiot and keep falling for your predictions.

Yep, you could space in melee; thing is, melee was a complex game and is currently built better as a fighter with in built options. You can space in brawl, but the thing is, its a huge focus of the game this time, purely because your options are less elsewhere. This is where practicality and technicality conflict again; like the fact, you could have a tech for throws, but if its not a practical enough throw tech frame window, its not useful. If you can space in melee, but grabbing someone with ICs for a wobble infinite or comboing someone into a waveshine are better or at least viable options, spacing loses its focus a little because it isn't as practical.

That's pressuring. Pressure =/= Spacing. You can also use spacing to pressure.

Since now, spacing is the best option practically, we can create all sorts of traps purely based off the hitboxes of moves and how they interact with your opponents choices.

What traps? Space a move, hope the opponent is an idiot and tries to shieldgrab it and Smash them in the face? What a wondrous trap that is! No, really, please don't base our options off of what new players/bad players will fall for. Good players will know about said traps and not fall for them (at least not consistently). Good players will react accordingly so the trap either fails or they'll be able to punish you.

Spacing was a vital and integral part of the Melee framework, and thats something I won't argue with you about; argue that, and I concede. Because its true. But it was a means to an end there. You used it to create openings for other strategies, and playing footsies all day was rarely pivotal and the only thing in the game.

You could also use it to create "traps". Nothing new under the sun here when it comes to Brawl. it's just that Brawl's trap are more restricted because of the lessened shieldstun. Not only must you space, but you must also space using only lagfree aerials since there's always shielddropped jabs/tilts/smashes and shieldhopped aerials (that or you space a move and then block!

 

[thumbswayup]

I find the arguement that Brawl is better for the community because technical ability doesn't separate the good from the great quite ridiculous. You're saying I should be able to step onto a tennis court and play even with pete sampras because I can think just as well as him? All those years he's spent perfecting his serve, forehand, and backhand mean nothing because we'll both have limits on our strength and speed. Therefore, my serve will be equal to his and the only way one of us will win the match is too guess which direction the opponent will hit the ball and just return it back with the same strength/speed and hope he trips while trying to return it.

 

[Zoro]

lol i use technical prowess as a crutch

it all makes sense now

I obviously never actually THOUGHT in melee
now i actually have to THINK by pressing the b button with metaknight and tilting the control stick in the general direction of my opponent. Maybe switching up my tactics a little by up bing over and over.
(Im not even messing the last tournament i went to someone won like that and it was a 160 man tourney)

Lol melee is better
sure brawl is competitive but melee is better

Im surprised any good melee player would even consider brawl being on the same level or better

 

[Zoro]

I find the arguement that Brawl is better for the community because technical ability doesn't separate the good from the great quite ridiculous. You're saying I should be able to step onto a tennis court and play even with pete sampras because I can think just as well as him? All those years he's spent perfecting his serve, forehand, and backhand mean nothing because we'll both have limits on our strength and speed. Therefore, my serve will be equal to his and the only way one of us will win the match is too guess which direction the opponent will hit the ball and just return it back with the same strength/speed and hope he trips while trying to return it.

I like this kid

 

[SiegKnight]

Pretty sure some of the ex uk melee crew are pretty decent and not terrible enough. I know it isn't a new feature, but its basically all Brawl has; tech trapping, though its a shame about the shieldstun. Yeah, I haven't explored the game at ridicolous levels of depth yet though I've gone what I'd consider 'very far' compared to most who play Brawl. I'm working on nothing but traps and air tech punishing. Until I explore more I can't really refute them points, you have it down pretty decently.

My business calls but, I bring a point of contemption here; not an idea to give Brawl redemption in your eyes, but something to ponder in case you dabble in him. Falco's d throw. Its quite chain grab capable, but not entirely. Theres a narrow window of escape after a certain percentage, and it piles up. A side note is you can - gasp - get a high consecutive hit rating if you shine from it in training mode. Woot, a guaranteed combo, before 50 or 60% anyway. Not DIable (at least at low percents, I think up di or air dodge works past a certain point, but it nearly double damage) I believe till around then or at least 30-40.

But I digress, thats useless and impractical information... Subject is; you can still get pretty close to them after a chain grab even if you can't always follow it up. This allows for, maybe, mixups. Remember if they airdodge or downdodge ****, they are not invulnerable forever. Use a lagless move as your alternate to a grab, and you can follow up their landing to the ground or the end of their spot dodge with a grab or a strike... Or I'd think so.

...Yeah, I am desperate to make this game that I love so much more fun for myself, and I'm not in denial Sakurai is making my personal job hard. But alot of the traps I've made aren't entirely fruitless when used as guess games. You often have to make a variety of traps to alternate between depending on what guess they make. Its hard. Uselessly hard. But I love brawl with all my heart as a game. I'm determined to try all I can.

I won't lie to you and say I don't think its developing into a better game to play than you realize, and a big part of it is that I don't think its your - and many other melee vets - sort of game, even with the overall quality aside, just due to the change in focus. But I don't know how long it can keep developing, or if it will keep being more psychological. But as it is, psychology is all it has, I can very easily see it becoming alot like third strike in that way; a game so psychological even very knowledgable people have considered it an almost random game. Any bad habit will result in your death and make you feel like its not a competetive game anymore.

Off subject though...

I would like to see another match vid with Azen in brawl sometime actually... hm.

 

[illboyzeus]

I just went to a brawl tourney and half the kids were playing melee friendlies the whole time, I was actually rather bored of the game after my first match. This game is just so sluggish, even the ****ing menu screen is slower! All the matches digressed into nothing but camping, getting a hit, and resuming. sometimes people would get reckless and actually attack. Teams is fun in a crazy bull**** kind of way but singles is the definition of bad. And I don't even suck at this game either. not amazing at it but good. Then again I only played it about 10 hours top and was beating people who lived and died by it. I picked up snake on a whim and pretty much watched zjinn play and copied him, and was doing all of snake's **** in about 5 minutes. wtf is that, in melee i'm incredibly technical, but I should have to put some type of effort to learn a char. Overall I think this game devolves into you pick the wrong char you lose, you don't camp in some way you lose, you ATTACK you lose. I just find it weird to be playing a game competitively when the creator said it's not meant to be. can't we take a hint? I'll still play cause I've met some cool people and being around them is fun, and this is where the money is, but this game is still dumbed down as hell, which is nintendo's thing now(cough, mario kart).

 

[mangodurban]

football players play in the snow, rain, and mud; and dont complain when they slip/TRIP in the mud, because they know there was a equal chance it could have happened to the opponent as well as him. The hundreds of millions who bet on football games dont have an argument to call the game unfair because of some extra variables. Not that that can have complete baring on smash, it does say, true competitive players deal with the elements presented and try to gain advantage through a system of ever evolving means.(meaning new football plays are still being written.) No smash isnt football, but i will throw you off the stage and beat you before you can do it to me.....sounds about like a competitive thing, "but theres no hitstun so i cant infinite combo"-----"wahhhhh, the football defense stopped my from running the ball in, they had a chance to defend themselves" "thats not competitive, I should be able to run through the same hole everytime and win becasue of it, not adapt to the situation at hand". - thats what yall are saying with your lack of hitstun...kind of...maybe...maybe not

 

[illboyzeus]

terribe ****ing analogy thumbswaydown

tripping is gay no contest

 

[mangodurban]

its saved my life just as many times as its killed me, it has happened to my opponent just as many times as me, it may be annoying, but not gamebreaking or limiting competive playing. Im sure the mud is gay to football players....its not that terrible of an analogy, you just dont agree with me.

 

[Lixivium]

football players play in the snow, rain, and mud; and dont complain when they slip/TRIP in the mud, because they know there was a equal chance it could have happened to the opponent as well as him. The hundreds of millions who bet on football games dont have an argument to call the game unfair because of some extra variables. Not that that can have complete baring on smash, it does say, true competitive players deal with the elements presented and try to gain advantage through a system of ever evolving means.(meaning new football plays are still being written.)

Yes, there are random elements to every competitive activity but they are kept to a minimum. If there was a rule in football that said every play you made could randomly be negated, would you say that's okay simply because "it can happen to the other team also"?

No smash isnt football, but i will throw you off the stage and beat you before you can do it to me.....sounds about like a competitive thing, "but theres no hitstun so i cant infinite combo"-----"wahhhhh, the football defense stopped my from running the ball in, they had a chance to defend themselves" "thats not competitive, I should be able to run through the same hole everytime and win becasue of it, not adapt to the situation at hand". - thats what yall are saying with your lack of hitstun...kind of...maybe...maybe not

No, it's not the fact they are allowed to play defense, it is the NATURE of the defense; the football analogy would be if there were 12 guys on defense and only 8 on offense.

 

[SiegKnight]

Not at all. (to mango's post at the top of this page)

 

[mangodurban]

^what? lol, why would they negate points, did smash do that, thats completely hypothetical and is applying my analogy to a much more off the wall idea. Taking points is not done in smash either so is irrelevant to my argument. 12 on 8 also dosent apply for the same reasons, i dont see how that correlates with my smash to football competiveness analogy.

 

[mangodurban]

and when i said "i can run through the same hole everytime", that is referencing combos and how now its not a "quick input of memorized buttons" but must change with every play because of the extra defense, like football. meaning, a player can not run the same whole everytime( as you could with melee combos), that player must be innovative and confusing to the defense (like in brawl). I hope yall are reading the symbolism and know that i know football and brawl dont have much in common, but my analogies is the easiest way for me to explain.

 

[thumbswayup]

terribe ****ing analogy thumbswaydown

tripping is gay no contest

LMAO, thumbswaythe****down

its saved my life just as many times as its killed me, it has happened to my opponent just as many times as me, it may be annoying, but not gamebreaking or limiting competive playing. Im sure the mud is gay to football players....its not that terrible of an analogy, you just dont agree with me.

No, it is that terrible of an analogy. Does tripping occur at every football game to every player at complete random moments? Even if it could that's something the players, for the most part, have control over. They run miles everyday for practice, you really think they'll trip running to catch the ball on a perfectly sunny day with NO MUD? If they do, THEY ARE AT FAULT. Everytime I run in brawl I could trip. At any moment. It's so bad that I just stand still between stocks waiting for my opponent to respawn. This is usually the time in melee where I would show off technical skill and do crazy **** across the stage. The equivalent of this in brawl is running back and forth across FD without tripping. Now that's some technical skill.

 

[mangodurban]

no but players slip in mud while losing control, it does and has happened in football and if it does happen, the player had no control, tripping, though annoying, is happening to your opponent also in brawl, You both have an equal chance of tripping (which was my point if you had read) but you didnt, you just tried to tell me it was a horrible analogy (which i stated that they have little correltation but it was the esiest way to say my point. please read what i have said before you flame because you look stupid. I said in my post they dont correlate well but there is correleation and can be looked at from the fact that there both competitive.

 

[Lixivium]

no but players slip in mud while losing control, it does and has happened in football and if it does happen, the player had no control, tripping, though annoying, is happening to your opponent also in brawl, You both have an equal chance of tripping (which was my point if you had read) but you didnt, you just tried to tell me it was a horrible analogy (which i stated that they have little correltation but it was the esiest way to say my point.

Okay, people who play in the mud do have an equal chance of tripping, but the league doesn't intentionally water down the field every game to promote tripping, which is what was done in Brawl.

My point was that random factors are not necessarily harmless simply because they could happen to either player. They CAN be detrimental to the game, it depends on the frequency they occur, and the consequence they lead to.

Having said that, I concede that tripping is NOT gamebreaking. My problem with it, and I suspect this is true for most people, is just that they're a pretty stupid thing to add to a game.

 

[SiegKnight]

tw4etfsrgrstw34t5w4tt ugh I'll tell you what happened to football. I KILLED EVERYONE WHO PLAYS IT WITH FIRE

NOW STOP USING IT AS AN ANALOGY OR I'LL HUNT YOUR FAMILY DOWN WITH AN ANVIL AND A TROUT

 

[mangodurban]

i will hunt down anyone who types in all caps. but seriously, if people use my analogy in a quote box (as you did so graciously) im going to explain your misunderstanding... no I know what you want...... im sorry for stating my opinion, i wont do it again, sir....

 

[Jam Stunna]

I find the arguement that Brawl is better for the community because technical ability doesn't separate the good from the great quite ridiculous. You're saying I should be able to step onto a tennis court and play even with pete sampras because I can think just as well as him? All those years he's spent perfecting his serve, forehand, and backhand mean nothing because we'll both have limits on our strength and speed. Therefore, my serve will be equal to his and the only way one of us will win the match is too guess which direction the opponent will hit the ball and just return it back with the same strength/speed and hope he trips while trying to return it.

Winning post.

 

[-Hoggle-]

i will hunt down anyone who types in all caps. but seriously, if people use my analogy in a quote box (as you did so graciously) im going to explain your misunderstanding... no I know what you want...... im sorry for stating my opinion, i wont do it again, sir....

I will hunt down anybody who double post. (use the edit button dink).

 

[mangodurban]

stop telling my how to live my life hoggie, ill hunt you down.

 

[AlphaZealot]

It's not about having easy approaches, it's about the fact that even if you can approach in this game, your approach will still be quite lacking since there's still no shieldpressure or mixup opportunities on block. You can only approach by spacing your aerials properply, air controlling out of shieldgrab range while doing a move or do soundly unsafe things which will cause you to get shieldgrabbed/shieldhop aerialed or even shielddrop jabbed/tilted/smashed in the face.

And did I even make approach the main point of my argument? My main argument was that the game is lacking even on hit. Yes, you can approach as certain characters. But what for? Even if you hit them, the game engine doesn't really allow you to punish them that hard.

Well, if your like me and play Diddy, your entire argument falls apart, Diddy can pressure shields and keep combo's going, its the amazingness of having two projectiles. Maybe he is unique in this sense, but the point is simple, its the reliance on character specific traits which will define Brawl, maybe your character can't combo at all, a la Ike, but then again, 6 hits into a stock and Ike is already looking for a killing blow, versus about...15 or so for Diddy.

You launch someone, then what? Your chances for even comboing them once or twice are much less than theirs to recover.

Not really, I'm really wondering if you understand the concept of start up lag on some of the attacks, this shares the similar attribute that hit stun does, it prevents immediate response. You hit them, you pressure them into an airdodge (you can do this with empty shuffles or with air attacks that have little lag, or with character specific stuff, I throw banana's or shoot peanuts, for example, they each attack catch or dodge catch, both of which are punishable), for they know they will not have time to start up their own attack in time, the forced response is, essentially, only to dodge, for which you should be prepared with a counter measure.

Have you played any other fighting games competitively?

No.

Yes, it took up to several years for people to discover and implement techniques like L-canceling and wavedashing in Melee, but the difference with Brawl is that the very engine of the game itself is designed to limit what you can do with any given character. People may not have known about "advanced techs" a year after Melee came out, but the game itself had features and options like L-cancelling that made these possible. Brawl has no such thing that we know of and I won't hold breath because, well, as you said, Brawl isn't Melee.

Citing moonwalking really does not help your case here. In fact it illustrates that any future "advanced techs" people find in Brawl are likely to be comparable to moonwalking: highly character-specific, possibly impressive, but only marginally useful at best.

The evolution in play in Melee existed on a strategic level, with some of these strategies only becoming possible when a certain level of technical ability is reached. In Brawl, we have access seemingly to everything from the get go, yet, further technical evolution, while it would be nice, isn't a nessesity. view:

, Brawl is fine the way it is, there is no need to find anything game changing to arise, people are merely hoping for this because that can’t accept the reality that Brawl is a different game than Melee, deep and interesting in its own right.

Well so much for Brawl's vaunted "balance" then. And if approaching isn't viable then by definition the game degenerates into at least defensive camping. Maybe not necessarily the egregious, Overswarm vs. Jiano-style camping, but still (at least to me) a more tedious and less satisfying style of play.

Ahh but you see, this creates balance! Having specific characters that will counter other characters and then further characters that will counter these, we establish a rock-paper-scissors scenario with no single characters really being able to dominate. However, don't hold this to mean that you can't be successful using just 1 or 2 characters, plenty of the characters have enough going for them that they can respond and adapt for themselves, but it will take a little extra work.

I find the arguement that Brawl is better for the community because technical ability doesn't separate the good from the great quite ridiculous. You're saying I should be able to step onto a tennis court and play even with pete sampras because I can think just as well as him? All those years he's spent perfecting his serve, forehand, and backhand mean nothing because we'll both have limits on our strength and speed. Therefore, my serve will be equal to his and the only way one of us will win the match is too guess which direction the opponent will hit the ball and just return it back with the same strength/speed and hope he trips while trying to return it.

Your making an error done earlier. Do you view video games like a sport with required physical ability or like chess or cards, with purely mental ones? In the end, the latter tests thoughts, the former tests actions, combining the two is great, but losing one and gaining a lot on either side is just as good.

lol i use technical prowess as a crutch

it all makes sense now

I obviously never actually THOUGHT in melee
now i actually have to THINK by pressing the b button with metaknight and tilting the control stick in the general direction of my opponent. Maybe switching up my tactics a little by up bing over and over.
(Im not even messing the last tournament i went to someone won like that and it was a 160 man tourney)

Lol melee is better
sure brawl is competitive but melee is better

Im surprised any good melee player would even consider brawl being on the same level or better

If you played in tournaments than you know this to be true, as a Peach player, I constantly beat on people with superior technical ability who simply lacked the mindset to adapt mid match, and I'm pretty sure anyone whose gone through pools at tournaments has also run into these players. What may not be true for you does not mean it isn't true for others, we've seen a lot of disparity in the mid level players, some improved, others regressed, I find it fascinating. That said, if someone won with such a simple strategy, is it an insult to Brawl that this happened, or an insult to the players in attendance that such a telegraphed strategy was not countered, I think its the latter.

In regards to tripping: I don't think we fully understand this yet. I know I trip maybe 1 or 2 times every 3 or so matches, and I've played people that trip 3, 4, of 5 times a match. Is there a character variable introduced with tripping? Or what about that theory about pressing left/right perfectly?

 

[Yuna]

Well, if your like me and play Diddy, your entire argument falls apart, Diddy can pressure shields and keep combo's going, its the amazingness of having two projectiles. Maybe he is unique in this sense, but the point is simple, its the reliance on character specific traits which will define Brawl, maybe your character can't combo at all, a la Ike, but then again, 6 hits into a stock and Ike is already looking for a killing blow, versus about...15 or so for Diddy.

Diddy Kong can shieldpressure, approach and combo using his projectiles? Yeah, no. Shieldpressure? Quite possibly if they just stand still and block every single one, though it'd still be borderline projectile camping. Combo? Show me amazing combos using said projectiles, please, I really wanna see some. Approach using projectiles alone? As aids, such. but it's not like there'll be a lot of approaching (safe) folowed by shieldpressure using them.

Also, Ikes killing blows are all slow or very situational. And since when is Ike some kind of new paradigm? Bowser and Ganondorf were a lot like that in Melee. Doesn't mean Ike isn't incredibly unsafe in pretty much everything he does, even spaced, depending on who he's facing.

Not really, I'm really wondering if you understand the concept of start up lag on some of the attacks, this shares the similar attribute that hit stun does, it prevents immediate response.

Yes, I do. A lot of nairs (if not still most) have a startup of 3 frames. Airdodges are also quite fast, though I do not have the frame data for them in Brawl.

You hit them, you pressure them into an airdodge (you can do this with empty shuffles or with air attacks that have little lag, or with character specific stuff, I throw banana's or shoot peanuts, for example, they each attack catch or dodge catch, both of which are punishable), for they know they will not have time to start up their own attack in time, the forced response is, essentially, only to dodge, for which you should be prepared with a counter measure.

You pressure them into an airdodge? You mean you hit them and expect an airdodge/provokes one? No one's going to constantly be falling for empty shuffles (unless they're bad players). How about they just take that hit from what banana? What about attacks into banagrab or dodges without catching the peel? Or attack catch into itemdrop into another attack? Or just plainly time their attack to when they think you're going to hit them. If they guess right, you'll whiff.

There's also still DI. With DI, most combos will last, at most, 3 hits.

The evolution in play in Melee existed on a strategic level, with some of these strategies only becoming possible when a certain level of technical ability is reached. In Brawl, we have access seemingly to everything from the get go, yet, further technical evolution, while it would be nice, isn't a nessesity. view:

That's your opinion, though. Many don't share that opinion. We don't like the changes in Brawl not because they are changes but because the way in which they've changed. I wasn't expecting or even hoping for Melee 2.0. But I was hoping for a game I felt was good.

Ahh but you see, this creates balance! Having specific characters that will counter other characters and then further characters that will counter these, we establish a rock-paper-scissors scenario with no single characters really being able to dominate. However, don't hold this to mean that you can't be successful using just 1 or 2 characters, plenty of the characters have enough going for them that they can respond and adapt for themselves, but it will take a little extra work.

I think he meant more that it's not that balanced if there are a small number of characters that forces you to abandon a great number of characters for Competitive play.

Your making an error done earlier. Do you view video games like a sport with required physical ability or like chess or cards, with purely mental ones? In the end, the latter tests thoughts, the former tests actions, combining the two is great, but losing one and gaining a lot on either side is just as good.

Depends on what you lost compared to what you won.

If you played in tournaments than you know this to be true, as a Peach player, I constantly beat on people with superior technical ability who simply lacked the mindset to adapt mid match, and I'm pretty sure anyone whose gone through pools at tournaments has also run into these players. What may not be true for you does not mean it isn't true for others, we've seen a lot of disparity in the mid level players, some improved, others regressed, I find it fascinating. That said, if someone won with such a simple strategy, is it an insult to Brawl that this happened, or an insult to the players in attendance that such a telegraphed strategy was not countered, I think its the latter.

I think he was being sarcastic about the crutch-part.

 

[AlphaZealot]

www.youtube.com/alphazealot

Enjoy, and thats against GOOD people.

You don't seem to know a lot about Diddy, its the combination of the projectiles with the dash attack that has almost no lag into a u-tilt/u-smash that is deadly and almost unblockable, your best bet against a Diddy who has the approach set up they want is usually just to retreat so they don't get to use two banana's on you.

And Nairs are some of the easiest attacks to punish! Also, responding to Banana's is what you want, because EVERY response can be punished, you either hit them as they catch the banana, hit them just after they do an attack to catch a banana, hit them right after they dodge the banana, whatever, its the power not just of bananas, but any throwing item, as a Peach player from Melee, you should know that the entire point of throwing the projectile at the person is that you CONTROL when they have to respond, and since you know when the response will occur, you can punish accordingly. Side note, shielding banana's doesn't really help, you'll usually end up slipping when you try to initiate an attack as the banana lies right next to you.

Yuna, do you understand the concept of feinting? And empty shuffle can be made similar to what dashing in, wavedashing back, was in Melee.

 

[Yuna]

www.youtube.com/alphazealot

Enjoy, and thats against GOOD people.

You don't seem to know a lot about Diddy, its the combination of the projectiles with the dash attack that has almost no lag into a u-tilt/u-smash that is deadly and almost unblockable, your best bet against a Diddy who has the approach set up they want is usually just to retreat so they don't get to use two banana's on you.

I'm sorry, did I ever claim no combos existed or that Diddy couldn't combo? It's just that when you said something akin to "Bananas are great for comboing" I expected there to exist tons of combos that were easy to do and really long and/or that racked up tons of damage. A standard 2-3 hitcombo is not unusual in Brawl. And I have never claimed that it is.

It's not a very good approach, though. And since when is it "unblockable" (did you mean inescapable?) And it's not much in way of shieldpressure. 2 hits...

Note: I'm not saying approach, shieldpressure and comboing does not exist at all in Brawl. I'm just saying they're not much.

 

[thumbswayup]

Well, if your like me and play Diddy, your entire argument falls apart, Diddy can pressure shields and keep combo's going, its the amazingness of having two projectiles. Maybe he is unique in this sense, but the point is simple, its the reliance on character specific traits which will define Brawl, maybe your character can't combo at all, a la Ike, but then again, 6 hits into a stock and Ike is already looking for a killing blow, versus about...15 or so for Diddy.

Diddy is one of the two reasons I play Brawl. The second would be Sonic.

But what about the players who don't want to use Diddy? You'll have to name more than one character who can effectively and reliably combo.

Ahh but you see, this creates balance! Having specific characters that will counter other characters and then further characters that will counter these, we establish a rock-paper-scissors scenario with no single characters really being able to dominate. However, don't hold this to mean that you can't be successful using just 1 or 2 characters, plenty of the characters have enough going for them that they can respond and adapt for themselves, but it will take a little extra work.

Let me ask you, who counters Metaknight?

Your making an error done earlier. Do you view video games like a sport with required physical ability or like chess or cards, with purely mental ones? In the end, the latter tests thoughts, the former tests actions, combining the two is great, but losing one and gaining a lot on either side is just as good.

I disgree. Both elements are important. I shouldn't be able to play guilty gear for the first time and be able to execute all the techniques within 5 minutes.

I do like how you've organized this argument though and can partly understand where you're coming from. Brawl does take skill (way less than melee) and it is fun to play. I find teams in Brawl to be amazingly fun(you can actually combo with your teammate). However, singles is another matter. I cannot deal with camping in singles. You can easily handle it in teams because there's so much more going on to hinder it. That and singles matches are incredibly slow paced. They become long and boring. Some of them are great though, usually when your playing another aggressive player in a tournament match. Then it becomes intense. I like it when it's like that.

In regards to tripping: I don't think we fully understand this yet. I know I trip maybe 1 or 2 times every 3 or so matches, and I've played people that trip 3, 4, of 5 times a match. Is there a character variable introduced with tripping? Or what about that theory about pressing left/right perfectly?

Theory? Explain. Please god tell me there is something to stop the tripping.