The H2YL Tier List - The Real Sh*t

[Badgey]

Yoshi bottom tier? fail

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

like... he got it wrong from the begining and never improved:

Snake > MK
Mr. Game&Watch >>>>>>>> DDD
Marth and ROB are AT LEAST as good as falco.... not to mention the mistakes that RIDDLE the lower tiers.

 

[Divinokage]

like... he got it wrong from the begining and never improved:

Snake > MK
Mr. Game&Watch >>>>>>>> DDD
Marth and ROB are AT LEAST as good as falco.... not to mention the mistakes that RIDDLE the lower tiers.

And what exactly do you base yourself on to know this?

 

[Morrigan]

And what exactly do you base yourself on to know this?

vs metaknight lololol

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

And what exactly do you base yourself on to know this?

I cannot... read... his.... mouthspeak....

anyway my experience can't be dead on since it's all from a Zelda perspective... but honestly... I really see no support for this list... it's wak.

Even my friends of other mains completely dissagree with this.... it's a joke... seriously.

 

[Morrigan]

I see little to no discrepancies; I don't know why are acting like that.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Anyway... especially with its crappiness, what makes this list special enough to defy the "no tier lists" law?

It's not awful enough to be a funny joke tier... but it's even farther away from being good enough to be accurate.

 

[OffTheChain]

^ You disgrace your join date.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

^ You disgrace your join date.

ummm thank you?

I understand that this list is made by more respected members than the regular scruff... but it's still....... bad.

 

[Divinokage]

Instead of saying it's bad only, justify yourself please. What you would know? Did you play every character against every other character? Do you play vs people with the same skill level? Do you know tournament results, most importantly?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I know what I know from experience...

I know what the tourney results say... but all I can truly KNOW is what I have experienced.... I'll post more later... I'm busy now... but tourney results don't mean everything.

 

[DanGR]

Olimar mid tier? lol? I guess I'M just high tier. lol

 

[Tope]

Just handed out a bunch of infractions.


Please justify your posts instead of posting ridiculous one liners.

 

[Anth0ny]

I completely agree with this list. Well, maybe I'd put Pikachu and Lucas a little bit higher, but it's no biggy.

MK ***** Snake. I main Snake and I know this from experience. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't played good enough MK's.

Also, Kirby and Peach deserve to be where they are. They are extremely underrated characters and to an extent, underused. There are some absolutely phenominal Kirby and Peach players in my area (if you're reading this, you know who you are ), and they definately deserve to be in that position on the tier list.

Good **** Chillin.

 

[NJzFinest]

Sorry if this was already mentioned, but shouldn't Zelda/Sheik be a separate character on the list?

edit:

This list is amazing by the way. People lacking in experience should really stop crying about it or at least come up with some decent arguments.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sorry if this was already mentioned, but shouldn't Zelda/Sheik be a separate character on the list?

I'd keep them the same.. anyone who DOESN'T dual main just isn't using the character to its fullest.

My Biggest BIGGEST problems with the list are in the form of:
Zelda, Toon Link, Olimar, Pikachu.

All logic and experience says they are VERY good... same rough level as DDD actually... in fact.. I'd place ALL of them higher than DDD.

see that's the thing... DDD has a good users... and a lot of them... the other guys I mentioned... don't... I mean... it's kinda unfair.. when they are all clearly at least as good, they just don't have the same following... and, thusly, worse tourney results

 

[rm88]

I almost completely agree, but MK being above Snake is outrageous @_@ (but maybe it's just me...).

 

[phish-it]

I'd keep them the same.. anyone who DOESN'T dual main just isn't using the character to its fullest.

My Biggest BIGGEST problems with the list are in the form of:
Zelda, Toon Link, Olimar, Pikachu.

All logic and experience says they are VERY good... same rough level as DDD actually... in fact.. I'd place ALL of them higher than DDD.

see that's the thing... DDD has a good users... and a lot of them... the other guys I mentioned... don't... I mean... it's kinda unfair.. when they are all clearly at least as good, they just don't have the same following... and, thusly, worse tourney results

You have no idea what your talking about. If those characters don't have enough people repping them to show how good they are, how do you know for sure they are as good as Dedede?

This is still probably one of the more accurate tier list I've seen so far.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You have no idea what your talking about. If those characters don't have enough people repping them to show how good they are, how do you know for sure they are as good as Dedede?

This is still probably one of the more accurate tier list I've seen so far.

personal experience.

Any vid I've seen of DDD compared to equally skilled Olimars, Zeldas, Toonies or Pikas.


seriously... tournie results aren't EVERYTHING. I mean... they are SOMETHING otherwise DDD would seem much worse... but he's not as high as he's shown in that list... he's simply too easily bested.

 

[zamz]

personal experience.

Any vid I've seen of DDD compared to equally skilled Olimars, Zeldas, Toonies or Pikas.

You're using random videos on youtube as your 'personal experience' to prove that DDD should be lower? I don't know what to say. I'm sorry, but LOL. I think Chillin who has 'slightly' more first hand experience of competitive play would know better than you. Videos are never a good representation of skill.

The minute you say Youtube Videos are a better method of compiling tier lists than tournement wins...you're automatically wrong. Tournement is where people go for money. Casual is where people goof around and have fun. You can't bring casual experience into a tier debate. A tier list is not personal opinion. It's not where you go for baised opinions. It's not to scream: "My main should be higher because I do well agianst my friends!"

DDD is the third highest tournement placer in the country. That's evidence alone that a devoted player can use DDD effectively to win. If you need to watch a youtube video of a DDD to get an opinion of him, you shouldn't be talking. You don't have enough 'personal experience...'

 

[BoTastic!]

DDD is the third highest tournement placer in the country. That's evidence alone that a devoted player can use DDD effectively to win. If you need to watch a youtube video of a DDD to get an opinion of him, you shouldn't be talking. You don't have enough 'personal experience...'

True.

But Mk, snake and DDD are one of the most used characters in Brawl which aids in tourney results.

 

[Kitamerby]

I disagree with Lucario's placement.

Move him up a slot or four.

I really can't see him worse than Pit, DK, or Wario.

Kirby is meh. I won't disagree openly because he IS pretty darn good, but I still personally would put him a bit lower.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Like Chillin said look at his Falco. Look at all the same Snake players that ****. Only reason M2K places top with MK/DDD is because hes M2K!
I argee with everything but the Snake < MK
Snake > MK because
Up Smash
Up Tilit
Foward Tilt
Gernades
And Snake is just better than MK. Also stopping MK from spamming his netural B is madness!

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'd like you to explain how is that true. Well, of course you havnt played with good yoshi players. But if you can beat -no- if any mario can beat any good yoshi player using just specials, then i'll eat my words.

I was warned that SWF had a problem against yoshi users ¬¬

It's called a hyperbole... Also, I'm a person who uses Yoshi as a wild card for a main and I know for a fact that he's not that good of a character and definately among the worst. Mario is middle of the road if anything. He's one of the few characters who can effectively juggle, he has a decent approach, average KO potential, one of the few who can effectively protect himself while recovering (cape and fireballs), average recovery which can easily stage spike, decent airgame, exceptional gimping capabilities (no pun intended) along with a decent off stage game, average speed, a technical reflector, a spike, a move that can eat shields at higher percentages (dair) ... you get the picture. Mario is very well rounded like always. I think it's widely agreed on the Mario boards that the only matchups for Mario that are complete **** are Metaknight (seriously, who isn't?), Mr. Game and Watch (outprioritizes freakin' everything...), and King Dedede (even if you don't throw in the infinite). Yoshi... well... um... yeah...

Really, I hate it when people say "Oh you just haven't played an good *insert character here* players" when they play as a character that's not that good. I've heard it in the Ganondorf boards. I've heard in the Ike boards. I've heard in the Captain Falcon boards. Yes, I have a friend that can royally kick the crap out of me with Captain Falcon with some characters and I also have one that can do the same with Ike but it's not because of the characters, it's because they have much more tournament experience then I do. If I use someone I barely use like Falco or Snake, I will get the floor moped with my face despite what tiers say. If were of equal skill, however, the situation would be much different and that's obviously where tiers come in.

From what I understand, tiers take the assumption that if you put two equally skilled players together, one will have an advantage/disadvantage depending on the character match up. You may be able to beat some of your friends using Sonic, for example, but if you were to be paired up with someone who's equally as good with Wario I know you would be begging for mercy. That's what people don't seem to understand in these kinds of discussions. If you can beat me with your Yoshi, awesome, you're obviously better than me but if we are of equal skill, expect it to be much more of an uphill battle no matter who I choose, including Mario.

 

[NJzFinest]

I'd keep them the same.. anyone who DOESN'T dual main just isn't using the character to its fullest.

Or the person is probably using Sheik... or Zelda...

My Biggest BIGGEST problems with the list are in the form of:
Zelda, ...

Kawn and Darkmusician think she's low tier, don't people in the Zelda forums like, pray to them?

All logic and experience says they are VERY good... same rough level as DDD actually... in fact.. I'd place ALL of them higher than DDD.

Don't you play online?/Not play in tourneys or people that matter?

see that's the thing... DDD has a good users... and a lot of them... the other guys I mentioned... don't... I mean... it's kinda unfair.. when they are all clearly at least as good, they just don't have the same following... and, thusly, worse tourney results

What the hell? Um...no johns?
Good players ----> knowledgeable players ----> tend to use good characters lol.

 

[Kress]

It's called a hyperbole... Also, I'm a person who uses Yoshi as a wild card for a main and I know for a fact that he's not that good of a character and definately among the worst. Mario is middle of the road if anything. He's one of the few characters who can effectively juggle, he has a decent approach, average KO potential, one of the few who can effectively protect himself while recovering (cape and fireballs), average recovery which can easily stage spike, decent airgame, exceptional gimping capabilities (no pun intended) along with a decent off stage game, average speed, a technical reflector, a spike, a move that can eat shields at higher percentages (dair) ... you get the picture. Mario is very well rounded like always. I think it's widely agreed on the Mario boards that the only matchups for Mario that are complete **** are Metaknight (seriously, who isn't?), Mr. Game and Watch (outprioritizes freakin' everything...), and King Dedede (even if you don't throw in the infinite). Yoshi... well... um... yeah...

Really, I hate it when people say "Oh you just haven't played an good *insert character here* players" when they play as a character that's not that good. I've heard it in the Ganondorf boards. I've heard in the Ike boards. I've heard in the Captain Falcon boards. Yes, I have a friend that can royally kick the crap out of me with Captain Falcon with some characters and I also have one that can do the same with Ike but it's not because of the characters, it's because they have much more tournament experience then I do. If I use someone I barely use like Falco or Snake, I will get the floor moped with my face despite what tiers say. If were of equal skill, however, the situation would be much different and that's obviously where tiers come in.

From what I understand, tiers take the assumption that if you put two equally skilled players together, one will have an advantage/disadvantage depending on the character match up. You may be able to beat some of your friends using Sonic, for example, but if you were to be paired up with someone who's equally as good with Wario I know you would be begging for mercy. That's what people don't seem to understand in these kinds of discussions. If you can beat me with your Yoshi, awesome, you're obviously better than me but if we are of equal skill, expect it to be much more of an uphill battle no matter who I choose, including Mario.

Agree with what you say, if two people with the same experience in smash plays with two diferent characters, the character higher in the tier list it's most likely to win.
But I DO disagree that mario's specials are as usefull as yoshi's 95% OF HIS MOVESET. That has no sense. That was just "yoshi discrimination" (if it could be called that way)
And I DO disagree with yoshi being that low in the tier list, just as mario, he's balanced, It just takes more skill to find the perfect balance between airgame and groundgame.
Anyway, I'm just staying with the matchups and not with the tiers list, becouse they're far more exact than this. "Oh look, dis character is far more used in tournaments, bla bla bla" Lol .__. , I'm just choke chain grabbin your wario .___.

CYA Take care!
I

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Or the person is probably using Sheik... or Zelda...

then they're using half the character they could be using.

Kawn and Darkmusician think she's low tier, don't people in the Zelda forums like, pray to them?

no... we don't. Zelda might not be top teir material, but she's fantastic. However, proving my point, even our best Zeldas aren't really the same calibur as a lot of other pros. (sorry DM... but you normally admit this yourself, so I didn't think you'd find it too insulting.)

Don't you play online?/Not play in tourneys or people that matter?

the latter is true. I play online and in tourneys I can make it to... but I don't play people that matter because, frankly, I know I'll lose, so why bother shelling out the cover charge and driving for hours just to lose?

What the hell? Um...no johns?
Good players ----> knowledgeable players ----> tend to use good characters lol.

no one said their characters weren't good, just that other good characters aren't getting used.

You're using random videos on youtube as your 'personal experience' to prove that DDD should be lower?

no no NO. I'm using personal experience in addition to videos. and I'm not using videos of bad DDDs to justify him being lower. I'm just saying, tourney result s are the ONLY thing I ever see keeping DDD up. I have NEVER seen a DDD in my entire brawl experience, whether online, in real life or in a video that displays any ability remotely meriting him that spot on a tier list.
Simple statistics says, as long as he has that sheer amout of followers and he's relatively decent, he WILL do well in tourneys... simple as that.

 

[Morrigan]

the latter is true. I play online and in tourneys I can make it to... but I don't play people that matter because, frankly, I know I'll lose, so why bother shelling out the cover charge and driving for hours just to lose?

Believe it or not that's the best way to learn how to play. I know it's a b*tch to drive for hours "just for that", but it's probably worth it.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I have NEVER seen a DDD in my entire brawl experience, whether online, in real life or in a video that displays any ability remotely meriting him that spot on a tier list.

You haven't been to New Jersey, have you?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You haven't been to New Jersey, have you?

If I'm not going to drive over an hour to columbus... what makes you think I'd drive all the way to new jersey?

Believe it or not that's the best way to learn how to play. I know it's a b*tch to drive for hours "just for that", but it's probably worth it.

I basically have two choices though... Work a full time job and be a full time college student for my future... or be a full time gamer for today I mean... I suppose I'm more free during collge, but neither my hometown nor my college are within an hour of any serious tournies. *sigh* I do what I can, but, you know, it's not ideal conditions. That's why I say god bless lagless wifi.... erm... when it's actually lagless <.<

 

[gritsniper]

can somehow explain why falco is higher than game and watch? and dont say "you havent seen chillins falco". 1 person does not make a character good.

 

[Alopex]

I am confused. If this tier list is as undeniably accurate as it is being portrayed, why is it in the regional boards for Atlantic North as opposed to... a more mainstream board?

Is this tier list based solely on tournament results held in this region?

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I'd keep them the same.. anyone who DOESN'T dual main just isn't using the character to its fullest.

My Biggest BIGGEST problems with the list are in the form of:
Zelda, Toon Link, Olimar, Pikachu.

All logic and experience says they are VERY good... same rough level as DDD actually... in fact.. I'd place ALL of them higher than DDD.

see that's the thing... DDD has a good users... and a lot of them... the other guys I mentioned... don't... I mean... it's kinda unfair.. when they are all clearly at least as good, they just don't have the same following... and, thusly, worse tourney results

I'll tell you right away what makes D3 better then those characters:

1. Recovery
2. Chainthrows
3. Heavyweight

Zelda and Olimar are sitting ducks off the stage. Toon Link and Pikachu are good characters but they can't rack up damage as easily as D3 can with his chaingrabs. Then after that he just has to do a quick up-tilt or bair and the match is his. Almost every DeDeDe match you see is a routine of this.

 

[Hax]

i definitely approve of this tier list. except idk about marth being so high. then again, there aren't really any marths in NY.

 

[hoopspr226]

@ NJ's Finest: What are you talking about? Zelda and Sheik ARE separate on the list. Look Again.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

can somehow explain why falco is higher than game and watch? and dont say "you havent seen chillins falco". 1 person does not make a character good.

Tell that to Azen's Lucario.

 

[NJzFinest]

@ NJ's Finest: What are you talking about? Zelda and Sheik ARE separate on the list. Look Again.

I meant the list having Sheik, Zelda, and Sheik/Zelda as 3 separate characters ya boob.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I meant the list having Sheik, Zelda, and Sheik/Zelda as 3 separate characters ya boob.

oh I COMPLETELY agree with that idea

'cept there aren't a lot of dual mains

 

[Slithe]

As for what I stated, that wasn't me who typed it in I just found out. It was my friend who did. He doesn't know the rules.

 

[Slithe]

As for the topic at hand, Falco is NOT an overrated character. He's got good comboing capabilities, chaingrabs, an instant Spike, a projectile attack with unlimited range. His short-range game is good too; he's got a sex kick and a f-smash with fairly good range. You can also abuse the spike in the ring as well as out of it. He's also got the ability to deflect objects and can use his deflector as a projectile attack. I've also seen some very good Falco players. He may not be TOO popular at tournaments, but I'd say his metagame is really good.