The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[#HBC | J]

Sonic Discussion begins here
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Guide to Match-Up Ratios by Praxis

50:50
Very even matchup. Definition should be fairly obvious.

55:45
No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools,
or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.

60:40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup.
However, the other character does have responses him,
and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent
or out spacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

65:35
One character has options that shut down the other's options.
Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not completely unwinnable,
but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.

70:30
Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down
the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended -
or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing it incredibly well.

Anything past 70:30
Pretty much unwinnable matchups like Dedede vs Donkey Kong.

READ THIS BEFORE YOU TRY TO TROLL
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The Order:
Marth
Falco
Metaknight
Pit
Snake
G&W
Diddy
Lucario
DDD
Kirby
Pikachu
ROB
Wario
Olimar
Ice Climbers
Zelda/Sheik
ZSS
Toon Link
Donkey Kong
Samus
Fox
Peach
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Luigi
Bowser
Wolf
Jigglypuff
Sonic
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Ness
Link
Lucas
Captain Falcon


When we start Discussion we will start with General MU and Quick Tips, then we will Dicuss stage counterpicks/bans...
While we do this I will collect videos and frame data
Hopefully, on close match-ups I will be collecting move vs. move data to help us out

[collapse=MU Chart Simplified]

Large Disadvantage
Disadvantage
Slight Disadvantage
Even
Slight Advantage
Advantage
Large Advantage

= 30:70
= 43.5:56.5***
= 35:65***
= 45:55
= 30:70
= 40:60
= 45:55
= 45:55
= 40:60***
= 45:55
= 47.5:52.5***
= 40:60
= 37.5:42.5***
= 47.5:52.5***
= 45:55***
= 55:45
:shiek: = 40:60
= 45:55
= 40:60
= 30:70
= 55:45
= 45:55
= 40:60
= 62.5:37.5***
= 45:55
= ~:~
= 47.5:52.5
= 45:55
= 60:40
= ~:~
= ~:~
= ~:~
= ~:~
= ~:~
= ~:~
= ~:~
= ~:~
= ~:~
= ~:~
= ~:~


*** = Rediscussion is needed.

Categorization (no specific order)

Large Disadvantage

Snake - 30:70
Marth - 30:70
Donkey Kong - 30:70

Disadvantage

Metaknight - 35:65
Wario - 35:65 or 40:60
Peach - 40:60
R.O.B. - 40:60
Toon Link - 40:60
Sheik - 40:60
Mr. Game & Watch - 40:60
King Dedede - 40:60
Falco - 40:60 or 45:55

Slight Disadvantage

Pit - 45:55
Fox - 45:55
Zero Suit Samus - 45:55
Yoshi - 45:55
Ice Climbers - 45:55
Lucario - 45:55
Kirby - 45:55
Diddy Kong - 45:55
Wolf - 45:55
Pikachu - 45:55 or 50:50
Olimar - 45:55 or 50:50
Bowser - 45:55 or 50:50

Even

Slight Advantage

Zelda - 55:45
Samus - 55:45

Advantage

Jigglypuff - 60:40
Ganondorf - 60:40 or 65:35

Tier list view:

Top
- 35:65*

High
- 30:70
- 45:55
- 40:60 - 45:55*
- 45:55*
- 30:70
- 35:65 - 40:60*
- 40:60*
- 45:55 - 50:50*
- 45:55 - 50:50*
- 45:55
- 40:60

Overall Top/High -
2 (30:70)
1 (35:65)
1 (35:65-40:60)
2 (40:60)
1 (40:60-45:55)
3 (45:55)
2 (45:55-50:50)

Middle
- 45:55
- 40:60
- 45:55
- 45:55
- 40:60
- 30:70
- 40:60
- 45:55
-
- 45:55
:shiek: - 40:60
-
-
-
- 45:55 or 50:50

Overall Midtier (atm):
1 (30:70)
4 (40:60)
5 (45:55)
1 (45:55 or 50:50)

Low
-
-
- 45:55

- 55:45

- 60:40

Overall Low (atm):
1 (45:55)
1 (55:45)
1 (60:40)

Bottom
- 55:45

- 65:35 - 60:40*

Overall Bottom (atm):
1 (55:45)
1 (65:35 - 60:40)

Done by J~[/collapse]

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Marth:
Ratio: [30:70]​

Marth is a Large disadvantage. **** giving ratios.

[collapse=Marth Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles: NO
D-air to D-tilt lock %: 68

General MU:
-This is one of the MU's that almost requires you to have a second, with that said we will still discuss the MU
-Marth's aerials will usually outprioritize and outrange moves you have:

Here's what happens to each attack:

Nair: you're shield grabbed.
Dair: Tipped fsmash or usmash.
PKF: ftilt to cancel
uair: dair beats it (and when are you going to be under him?
bair: might could possibly get one of these to continue into a dair while onstage, but not likely
usmash: no one is stupid enough to fall for this one
fsmash: we're talking about Marth's long range sword. Not gonna win.
dsmash: maybe. and that's a maybe maybe.
Absorb: utterly useless. might could get off the stun effect if you slide into it.
PKT1: I find to be one of the better options, which is sad.
PKT2: Thundersliding is reasonably valid if you are on brinstar of similar stage

-If you are under Marth and can make sure he doesn't use down air you can up-air, also don't forget to switch it up. Marth's down-air IS a laggy move so if you can bait it, you can get a free up-air (however, it is almost impossible to get Marth directly above him)
-PKF is your main tool in this match-up, however due to Marth's style of play and his sword you will have to mindgame with it really well
-Gimping is going to be our main form of kills in this match-up because almost all moves are going to be nullified
-When gimping make sure not to go off stage, Marth's aerials will **** you. However, we have a controlable projectile to assist us. Make sure you aim well, because Marth's sword can stop PKT1 then he will recover.
-Lucas has limited to no options for when Marth is at the edge, don't do anything unless you see an oppertunity to d-smash if decides to second jump instead of up-b
-A very sad part of the match-up: Grab Release Infinite (GRI)
AVOID BEING GRABBED
If you do get grabbed try to EIDI to mess up the Grab Release, this has not been proven, but it is your best chance
-Marth's area of comfort is the area Lucas has the worst time spacing so we're going to have to run away most of the time or risk being grabbed or eating sword
-Avoid any moves that can be sheild grabbed easily (pracitcally all of Lucas' moves)
-Appearently if you PKT1 his dolphin slash recovery, he will go in a wacky angle and still leave him in his helpless state
-Watch out for his all of his decently ranged moves, Lucas has little he can do
-Lucas N-air can be FF or AC to be a good switch up to keep Marth at bay from grabbing, however if you mess up you may get grabbed
-When using PKT2 to recover, be careful, Marth's sword can cancel PKT1 while he's in the air (so don't recover like a ******)
-A good OoS option for Marth is Up-B so watch out for that

Stages:
Stage Strike: Battlefield, Lylat
Ban: Delfino, Battlefield
CP: Brinstar, Japes

Frame Data:
Link to Marth boards
[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
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Falco:
Ratio: [40:60-45:55]
*Need of Rediscussing to finalize MU descision* (note for future))​

[collapse=Falco Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnateable Projectiles:
--Lasers: 8%
D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 65

General MU:

-Falco can chaingrab us at low percentages to rack up damage leading into a dash attack cancelled into a Usmash or spiking with a Dair off the edge. It is easy to recover from the spike by meteor cancelling with a jump and using PKT2 or even Zap Jumping if you feel so inclined to recover. At the beginning of stocks, it's smart to play an anti grab game as much as possible and force Falco to get hits on you in other ways (if at all.)

- Our Uair beats everything Falco has when it 's well spaced so we have a good juggling game against him. However, his Uair beats our Dair if he spaces directly beneath us so you have to watch out for that. Also, his Bair and Fair beat our Dair from the sides.

-Absorbing lasers is generally a good idea if he decides to get campy. The safest way to do this however is by staying on the ground. Immediately after you absorb a laser, you can jump which allows safe absorbing even at mid range.

-Falco can reflect our PK Fires back at us with his down B. However, if you can bait him into using his down B without firing a PK Fire, it's a really laggy move that you can punish VERY easily.

- Edgeguarding can be very profitable against Falco. Once you get Falco off the stage you can watch for a couple of options he has and punish each and every one of them. If he is low and recovering with his side or up B, you can use PKT1 to edgeguard. Just make sure that he hits the side of the head or the tail. If he uses side B into the front of PKT1, he will outprioritize it. If he's recovering from slightly above the stage you're going to want to go for the same thing unless he's being especially predictable in which case depending on your horizontal spacing, you can try to punish with something stronger than PK Thunder for early kills if he's dumb enough to run into them. Everytime you get Falco off the stage you should get atleast an additional 10% damage onto him.
[/INDENT]

-As long as we use our magnet, we will have the advantage at long range so he'll have to come closer
-We can force him to come to us, but that is not smart because of his good approachs, so you will want to be aggressive in this MU and make sure he won't camp you
-Recover low so he can't gimp/spike you, if you are close enough, you should always use your tether
-It is safe to asorb at mid-range
-Falco has a reflector projectile so use PKF sparingly
-Our main advantage in this MU is gimping, so use PKT1 and other tools to gimp
-Bair and Dair spikes will work in this MU
-Falco can chaingrab you across the stage below 40%, he can d-air spike you, but Lucas can recover after words
-Falco has a great jab game and a B-air that beats our D-air
-In CG'ing percent range try to stay in the middle of the stage
-

lrn2magnetcancel

Stages:
Stage Strike: Final Destination and Yoshi's Island
Ban: Final Destination, Jungle Japes
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise

Videos:
Tyr vs. Notra: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhNyJoUHqQ8

Frame Data:
Link to Falco boards
[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
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Metaknight:
Ratio: [35:65]
*Redicussing MU needed*​

[collapse=Metaknight Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles: NO
D-air to D-tilt Lock%: 64

General MU:
- D-Smash is your best smash against MK, if you up-smash, you'll be destoryed, and it will be hard to use F-smash
- Careful PKF spacing is key in this match-up because of MK's transcendent priorty and speed
-If he *****nado's at your, you have options. The best being PKF if he does it to try to shield poke, tilt your sheild up. If he mashes B like a ****** you can up-smash. If he is above, d-air
-You must be extremely patient and defensive!
-Like every other MU learn to angle and recover smart
-

This can be a devastating MU for Lucas if you dont know it
What I do is not to approach often and let the MK player approach cause you know they are, due to MK's agressive playstyle.Thats when you read them, most likely they will fair, dair,tornado, or dash attack.
If they apprach from the air, AD then dair combo, i wouldnt use nair. If they approach with tornado pk fire them. And if they dash attack do a retreating fair or my favorite dsmash. Im starting to play as an evasive Lucas not an agresssive one, being too agressive will get you killed.

-If the mk is approaching you from the air, walk away because lucas has a blind spot near the angle where his forehead is at that an mk will **** with down air without being able to get punished easily
-With proper spacing Lucas F-air beats MK's
-Proper spacing with D-air will beat out Shuttle Loop and u-tilt at certain angles
-MK's D-smash is shield grabbable

---How to gimp---​

He uses his glide
-PK freeze travels the fastest horizontally, so I would advise that. He'll have to drop gilde or get hit. Both put him in baf positions.
- getting hit: He'll be sussceptible to a zapjump pk fire edgeguard KO.
Not getting hit: He won't have his glide and will be quite far away from the stage. He also should have wasted 1-3 jumps at this point.

-Pk Thunder: That **** kills MK. OK, if they glide, but try to go really low to avoid pk freeze, then pk thunder and make a straight line going down. Assuming, MK is level or below the stage just go down then, bring the PKT back up. They'll either:
- Keep going down and die (not likely)
- Go up into the PKT.

That's just for glide. That is ths HARDEST part of edgeguarding him everything else he does gets ***** by PKT.

BUT

to be more specific, I'll elaborate.

Once his first glide is gone, it becomes free damage. he Tries to drill rush? PK freeze/PKT, that's done. Just hit Drill rush with the tail of PKT, then loop it to knock him away again. PK freeze is self explanatory; just hit him lol. He tries to tornado? Nahhh not in mah house. Now this one is kinda tricky. It depends on how far away MK is. The most safe/smart thing to do is Pk fire. It ALWAYS works, unless your aim just sucks or something. if they're mad far away you can start charging a smash attack, preferably Fsmash, in case they decide to mash B and go above you. If you use Usmash/Dsmash, they can probably return safely. If they're far away, you can also PK freeze (not worth it), or PKT (risky). I'd just stick to PK fire. If they decide to teleport, just guess where they'll land and punish them. Uhh, what else. OH shuttle loop. PK fire, PKT, Dair from above, Bair from above all work. Really like, It's NOT hard to edgeguard MK's. I've made some people get frustrated (heard them groan, suck their teeth lol) because they couldn't recover.

-Learn to use PKFreeze to stop air camping
-If your caught in the Whornado, SDI up and N-air
-Metaknight has a weak shield, wear it down with n-air and d-air
-Metaknight can grab release Lucas for a dash regrab, Dtilt, Ftilt or Dsmash


Stages:
Stagestrike: Any except Final Destination
Ban: Rainbow Cruise
Counterpick: Final Destination, Pirate Ship

Frame Data:
Link to Metaknight boards

Zman's Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuISa...e=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7Nrj...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8v5N...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd4El...eature=related

Tyr's Videos (vs. M2K)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bFOBdTJFhg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R43Iy...eature=related
[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
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Pit:
Ratio: [45:55]​

[collapse=Pit Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles:
--Palutena's Arrow - 13%
D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 71

General MU:
-he cannot spam against us
-we force him to approach, so learn to punish his d-air, n-air and dash attack approaches
-PKF spamming does not exist in this MU, you'll either get an arrow in the face or reflected PKF
-when he is on the ledge, make sure your ready to absorb some ledge spam
-PKT is not a reliable gimp move due to Pit having his arrows-To win this, you must be defensive and force him to approach
-Be extremely careful off stage, this is where Pit wins the MU

For gimping, Pit to Lucas, Pit may have problems at first, sometimes, but he still has his basics arrows. You can magnet some of them but not all.
Against your Magnet pull thing (PK fire to Magnet), Pit can either try to shoot an arrow before the magnet comes out, or try to predict where you end up and strike there. Angel Ring does somewhat good at this part if you fly into it.
Against Zap Jump, Pit really can't do anything but wait til you come down, and even though he can still try to arrow you, you would have enough reaction time to just avoid them.
Against your PKT recovery, Pit has different options for it.

1: Pursue with an aerial
This can be common with some Pits.

2: Stay at a distance and shoot an arrow at you
This is also common sometimes. A Pit can keep shooting arrows at you til you are either out of Pit's shooting range, or til you far enough so Pit can prepare to either try to edgehog you or Mirror Shield you, depends on the distance between Lucas and Pit, and such,

3: Mirror Shield you after the PKT hits you
Like some other character recoveries (like Ike's), Pit can Mirror Shield them to gimp them and KO them. It isn't as risky as doing it on a Ness since mistiming it on a Ness, well, you know, since it's a powerful impact.
The Thing with Lucas is that after the PKT impact thing, he can move somewhat fast in the air in his helpless state, unlike Ness, which could give Lucas a chance to make it back, but Pit could try to edgehog him at will.

4: Use Up-B near you
Remember that Pit's up-b has a windpush effect that surrounds Pit in all directions. If he uses Up-B near you, you will move and it can mess up with you being able to recover. It could send you in a direction that you don't want to go, or could totally kill you. Death is not guaranteed, though.

5: Shoot an arrow at your PKT directly.
If a Pit shoots the ball part of the PKT with an arrow, the PKT is destroyed, and you might as well say goodbye after that. Let's hope the Pit you are facing isn't a sniper >_< (I did knock some PKTs out before)

6: Edgehog
Self-explanitory, but really only works if you are far away that your PKT won't reach the platform itself. In combination with other tactics, this could also work.

7: Wait patiently
Some Pits may rather wait to see where you will end up, and then try to attack, or edgehog if applicable.

Don't forget to use your tether recovery which can help you out quite a bit, and keep the Pit guessing a bit more.

-Here is how we can try to edgegaurd, just be weary of arrows

As far as edgeguarding and gimping goes, Lucas to Pit, Lucas has that PKT that is annoying. However, keep in mind that a Pit can shoot arrows as he comes close which could mess you up, or he could try to reflect them, if he doesn't decide to glide, which is usually bad. Pit hates getting spiked since he has quite a bit of hitstun from them, and his Up-B won't cancel any knockback momentum. Try to force Pit into Up-B, and get him with the PKT if you can. PK fire can help against bad gliding, and your F-air has good range, so it should help too.
Keep in mind that Pit can glide under some stages to avoid some trouble.

-Avoid being grabbed at low-pecents, although he can't CG F-throw, he can F-throw to F-smash or D-throw to Up-air
-Use d-smash for reckless ledge Pits

Stages:
Strike: Lylat, Yoshi's Island
Ban: Lylat
Counterpick: Brinstar, Pokemon Stadium 1

on the note about lylat, if you end up at this stage a lot of the times pit will camp the ledge and jump under the stage to Uair you through it.. Just Dsmash and it'll spike him straight down for an easy KO.

Frame Data:
Link to Pit boards
You're going to need to scroll down because they don't have a seperate thread for frame data
[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
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Snake:
Ratio: [30:70 Impossible] (redicussed in OBR)​

[collapse=Snake Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles: NO
D-air to D-tilt lock %: 80

General MU:
-AVOID TILTS!!!
-Our biggest advantage is when Snake has to recover
---Go for the spike if he recovers in that range
---If he recovers low, grab, don't pummel (who didn't know this?)
---If he recovers high, zap jump and hold your magnet untill his pseudo SA frames run out and release
---Offstage your best tools are PKT, PKFreeze, Fair and Bair
-Learn to deal with 'nades
---If he's pulling it out, try to PKF if your in range
---Be careful for grenade counter, so limit multi-hit apporaches
---F-air is the safest to approach with because it doesn't detonate his grenades
---Try to aim your PKF a littler higher than usual to hit the grenades
-His tilts are near unpunishable, if you try to punish, your asking for death
-To live longer from U-tilt, DI behind Snake when hit
-If you manage to get Snake in the air, F-smash his aerial lag and try to U-air juggle
-Don't get grabbed
---Elaboration, if he grabs you, he has a gaurenteed 20% with his tilts and at 100% his unavoidable U-tilt will kill (depends on the ground break, but it's never predictable whether or not you'll break far enough), he also has one hell of a tech chase
-D-smash telegraphed Mortar Slides
-Don't try to D-air, you'll be asking for U-tilt
-His C4 last for 27 seconds, his D-smash last for 24 seconds, his nades last for 4 seconds

Stages:
Strike: Lylat, Battle Field
Ban: Halberd
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise

Frame Data:
Link to Snake Boards
[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
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Mr. Game & Watch
Ratio: [40:60](redicussed in OBR)​

[collapse=Mr. Game & Watch Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles: NO
D-air to D-tilt lock %: 62

General MU:
Spacing is the key to this matchup.

Half our camping game is gone, our means of edge-guarding are gone and our means of getting back to the stage are sometimes nullified... this is still a tough MU even if he doesn't get to gimp you.

I'm going to go through his moveset now

Aerials
B-Air - First of all, you must be comfortable to learn the reach of his b-air, you can't shield and punish it at all. You must stay out of that range and PKF his feet to be able to hit him because his turtle will explode it if it hits it. Seriously, learn the spacing, it is KEY to this MU. Also B-airs landing lag has a hitbox, do not let up yoursheild until you know that this hitbox is gone.
D-air - It's annoying, but it's tolerable. It has a really big hit-box. The thing is there are 3 or 2 speeds he can float this with; regular, slow and (fast?). It's a good mix up that you have to watch out for. When it lands it has two hitboxes so wait for it to hit your shield twice before you punish, or just stay out of range. If he does it in the air, you must remember that it penetrates your blind spot so I'd dash out of it's way. But if he does become D-air spammy you must Up-smash to keep him in fear and keep him at bay.
Up-air - this one is sometimes difficult to deal with. Good thing we have a disjointed and ranged D-air and an above average fall speed, so it shouldn't be difficult to deal with his Up-air, just try to avoid him juggling with it because it will refresh his moves if he hits with the wind hit-box
N-air - this moves main source of hurt is above and again we will be able to d-air if he is below. This move is one of the least ranged moves of his aerial arsenal, it shouldn't be too hard to deal with.
F-air - It's sweet-spot start up hitbox is a great aeial KO move but even if he isn't able to hit with it, he still can hit with an enourmously long hit-box and huge range but it won't kill. It has extreme landing lag, it's easy to score a KO if he lands it wrong

Tilts -
F-tilt - This is probably the least spammed ground move. Learn it's hit-box and punish with a grab in his long hit-box lag.
D-tilt - This is my favorite to use when I use G&W. It's ubeeer disjointed, it think it has more range than snakes u-tilt IMO. It's near unpunishable comes out somewhat fast and ***** Lucas. Watch out for this after he lands an aerial. Be careful of this move after you tether I think it has enough range below it that it can hit you as you pull up. The main thing is, this move ***** unless you learn how to space against G&W
U-tilt - I have little experience with this move, but it chains at low percents and is pretty decent juggle move

Smash -
F-Smash - This has a long hit-box and will be used in place of his f-tilt. If you happen to side step this move hold your shield other wise you'll still be hit. It has low ending lag and has somewhat decent start up lag. It has a sweet-spot where the fire is and and non-sweet spot where the stick is. My tips as for Lucas is to try space and don't punish or you could eat a retaliation
U-Smash - It's slow, but kills to well and has low ending lag. One notable thing is the his head has no hurt-box and you should try to use a low hitting ground attack such as d-tilt, I wouldn't try to d-air him during this but it might work...
D-Smash - It's fast and hits on both sides. It's most used when he d-throws you because you can't get out of it unless you tech. There's sweet-spot and sour-spot but both should be able to kill you the only difference is the direction IMO

Regular Attacks
Jab - has a hit-box behind him and needs to be DI'd away from him, pretty simple stuff, but keep in mind if he spams it too much it's hard for him to get out and you can really punish that so make him remember that
Dash Attack - It's hit-box is way to long. I wouldn't really want to commit shield on this one if you want to punish, but it's slow and can be punished with a move, just becareful of the long hit-box. It's also a good juggling move for G&W

Specials -
Up-B - This is one of the best recoveries in the game IMO, he has way too much aerial mobility afterwards, this move will destory any attempts at gimping and can be used to continue juggling on-stage. It has invinciblity frames so he's a projectile himself. It also gimps the s*** out of Lucas

Side-B - This move is really random and is almost never spamed because it's just not good and is way too punishable... just punish (unless it's UTD Zac, then be scared)

Neutral-B - Sausage, it's actually not that bad of a projectile, but can be beaten with a PKF and it can get him stuck if he starts to really spam it. I like to punish that with an Up-smash but this will rarely happen...

Down-B - This stops your spamming. or does it? It comes out quick, unlike PSI Magnet and unlike PSI Magnet has extreme ending lag, I'm talking near Lucas Up-smash ending lag when he buckets something. Use that to your advantage and make him afraid to commit to his bucket. Just be careful on this last filling of his bucket because I think it's not that bad of ending lag. When his bucket's full he will try to approach with dodgeing of sorts and try your best not to commit to smash's. Don't assume you can stay in the air also, it's just as lethal there. It's sometimes a good follow up to d-throw for him so avoid being grabed.

Grabs -
D-throw - Tech-chase, Lucas can do nearly nothing about this, you can't buffer a roll and our techroll sort of sucks.

-Our strategy against G&W can be played in two ways
---Let him bucket weak PKF and make sure we can camp/spam and make sure he can't bucket break
or
---Make it unsafe to use bucket by ground canceling PKFire and punishing the bucket and being unpredictable with PKFire, however with this, bucket braking is possible. But if he doesn't have full bucket we can bucket bait.

Stages:
Strike: Lylat, Battlefield
Ban: Rainbow Cruise
Counterpick: Brinstar, Final Destination

OK so Rainbow Cruise only sounds good then? (also if Corneria and Green Greens for some reason aren't banned, you should ban them.) You shouldn't choose Norfair because our camping game is gone, his d-throw tech chase is too good, he does way too well with platforms and a good Lucas shouldn't really be getting gimped by G&W and it relies too much on whether or not the lava is there. Certainly not stage you want to CP atleast. BTW I love Brinstar, smexiest CP against G&W gaurenteed.

Frame Data:
Link to the G&W boards
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Written by rPSI
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Diddy Kong
Ratio: [45:55]​

[collapse=Diddy Kong Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles: NO
D-air to D-tilt lock %: 70

General MU:
-Grab a Banana and camp
- Don't let him have his Banana's, this means don't even throw them at him. A good Diddy knows what to do
---Seriously, we suck with Banana's. We have a sucky dash attack, sucky glide toss, sucky jump canceled throw and a horrible tech chase.

no it's not a lie. using bananas against a GOOD diddy is an extremely dangerous thing to do. Diddy has too many safe options for taking back control of the bananas. It doesn't really matter how much you know about how to control the bananas, it is not a safe option against diddy.

Lucas is bad using bananas, his dash attack is not good, his glide toss and jump canceled throw are bad, he sux at tech chasing after you hit with a banana...
best way to use them, grab one and camp or throw them up or place them strategically to control the stage

-To pick up a Banana, good options include SH Airdodge, SH F-air, SH N-air
-If he throws his Banana, SH Airdodge
-When you are at killing percents, you should stand near the edge to avoid Banana smashes
-One of the good parts of the MU is you should be living long because we should be avoiding his weak kill moves
---DI down and tether when he does d-smash (whiplash)
---His u-tilt kill sooner than his u-smash
---Try to DI his F-smash to get hit by only the first one
-His f-air is fast but punishable, so space your aerials when in the air
-PKF breaks upon his Banana, so be careful
-Use your PSI magnet to stop his momentum
-We can gimp them pretty well in this MU, you can PKT most of his recovery especially his Side-B, so abuse it when he's offstage. Meteory smashes also work well
-However, you have to be careful off stage. His Banana's can cancel PKT and he has a good Meteor Smash
-Move, move, move... Never stand still

Stages:
Strike: Final Destination, Smashville
Ban: Final Destination
Counterpick: Brinstar, Pokemon Stadium 1

Frame Data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239185
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Written by rPSI
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Lucario
[45:55]​

[collapse=Lucario Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles:
--Aura Sphere: 4% - 30%
--Force Palm: 18%
Dair to Dtilt Lock %: 74

General MU:
-Technically we can outcamp him, but don't neglect the fact that Aura Sphere can still be used as of all projectiles
---I say technically because he gets stronger as we out camp him and we feed his steriods
-Always keep your kills moves fresh
-Lucarios greatest weakness is his ability to be easily ledgehoged
---In theory (not tested) to gimp him of his second jump a PKT1 should be sufficient and then tether ledgehog should work quite easily. If he tries to send an aurasphere at you, he gets weaker and you cancel your PKT1
-You must keep this game on the ground, because Lucario is a beast in the air
-Be wary of AS as a techchase option and use your invinciblity frames accordinginly
-Lucario has the best roll dodge and you should expect alot of roll dodges in this MU
-Lucario's long hitboxes present a problem to spotdodgers. It is recomended that you use your shield and roll dodge a little more in this MU than in others
-Be careful when tethering to the stage. Try to time it so his d-air misses you if you can because his d-air repels you from your tether. Like every MU, zap jump is recomended, but PKT2 is not horrible (just try to overshoot the edge, he has ways of easily edgehogging)
-PUNISHING:

dsmash: all sorts of things, as a lucario who tries this and gets shielded made a mistake by doing dsmash in the first place.
Usmash: Lots of things after the initial frame, there's a weird time in the attack where it cancels out stuff like MK's glide attack.
ftilt: if properly spaced, nothing, it is very safe on block, and has two hits
dtilt: pretty safe too.
utilt: on block, lots of things, this thing is unsafe on block lol
dash attack: sooooooooo laggy if blocked lol, do whatever is suitable
Jab: I'd assume an aerial out of shield would be good.
aerials: fair is kinda safe on shield in this MU, although you can probably try utilt, dair is probably not going to be punish with usmash, two hits + good range + the speed it is probably better to try aerial oos, utilt if it's in range, or grab if that's fast enough, although you can probably mindgame him if he doesn't know the MU (not relevant to MU discussion, but good to keep in mind with a MU).
Bair is pretty punishable if he tries the fair -> bair, nair if spaced will be tough, uair can probably be outranged by dair, but I'm not sure of Lucas dair's speed.
fsmash if spaced properly is going to be a bugger to punish even for lucas, but chances are that lucario will mess up and not do it properly. If so, I think grab or dsmash if it is fast enough might be able to punish it.
Most of these if improperly spaced especially dtilt can be punished readily, but remember that lucario plays best at a specific zone, so chances are he'll play at that zone as much as he can.

i went to the lucario boards and looked up the frame data. Dunno if i did it right but here's what i came up with. Im guessing when they say 'hitbox out', thats the last frame when a hitbox is.. well, out. Assuming all these are blocked and not ps'ed, so im cutting 6 frames off the lag time of the move for shield drop. Biggest punish is listed. If you powershield, you can adjust accordingly by changing
1) Jabs/tilts > Dairs
2) Dairs > Fsmash/Dsmash
3) Fsmash > Dsmash
4) Dsmash > Usmash
5) Usmash > you're a greedy *****, yknow that?

The list:

F-smash - If you run block an fsmash near the ending, you can't do anything to it if the Lucario's on his game. If you block the initial hit, you get tilts.

D-smash - If u block the dsmash normally, u can dsmash him back. If you run block it near the end of the active hitbox, best you get is fsmash.

U-smash - If u block it up close normally, its a free usmash. If u block it on a platform, I think u can actually drop through and get a free uncharged pk freeze. They probably did this move by mistake.

F-tilt - Jab/utilt if poorly spaced.

D-tilt - Jab/utilt if poorly spaced.

U-tilt - Tilts, dair if done with perfect timing/close enough

Dash Attack - Blocking a spaced dash attack, they still get dair'ed with good timing. Blocking a deep dash attack, you get a dsmash if u time it perfectly. You should probably stick with fsmash for the middle ground but remember that there is a chance they could block. Dair is the safest, guaranteed option.

Jab - Cant **** with the first 2 jabs. If he follows through with the third, destroy his world. Fsmash is free, dsmash has to be frame perfect.

Aerials - No landing info for aerials. No Lucarios down here really so my only experience is from friendlies. With that disclaimer, I'd say that if they aren't landing with a nair or bair, **** with it.

Stages:
Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Yoshi's Island
Counterpick: Halberd, PS1, or anystage with a low ceiling that you are comfortable with

Frame Data:
to Lucario boards: Here

Zman vs. Ph1ny3
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3292069
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3293034
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3293819
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3294782
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Written by rPSI
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King Dedede
[40:60]
PF's MU opinion [30:70] When PF says it's bad, it's bad.
*Rediscuss*​

[collapse=King Dedede Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles:
--Up-B Stars: 13%
--Waddle Doo Electricity: 68%
D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 79%
D-throw to U-tilt Max (Fresh): 24%

General MU:
-Don't get grabbed
-N-air combos should really be the only combos you should be getting
---His u-tilt plows right though our d-air so using it as an approach can get you killed
---ALWAYS land your n-air behind D3 or you will get grabbed
-Bait and punish moves w/ an empty short hop
-We are forced to approach because of Waddle Dees spam
---Try to bat Gordos if you get good at it
-His b-air has godly range and speed, don't try to beat it out
---You can try to shieldgrab it though
-You want to use your wavebounce to keep you in a middle of the field postion so that way he isn't set up to grab or waddle dee
-Waddle doo healing is good to keep him on his toes about camping
-Our main objective in this MU is to get past his wall of range and combo
-If d-airs are predicted then they could possibly be up-smashed
-D-smash is good to punish D3's landing

bair eats fire. the best way to beat bair is to empty short hop and try to utilt him

Iunno about the frame data but from what I've experienced, there's a few common things DDD's do that are punishable if you're ready for it.

If he ftilts as a range check, you can run block and get a free fsmash.

If he throws a waddle dee, you can run block it and still have enough time to dash grab him. And I'm talking like halfway across final D. The throw is pretty laggy.

If he inhales, fsmash and dsmash and even grab beat it cleanly. Usmash gets left behind. You get pulled towards him as you're doing these and you win.

If you block a fastfalled dair, don't instantly shieldgrab. For one, you have much better damage options like a smash or dair. But primarily cause he'll bounce over your grab. His up tilt can also go over your grab.

Know the gay part? The ways to own a DDD for those spacing moves: waddle and dtilt, is something you would rarely want to do. Run blocking at a DDD is not a fair game of risk-reward. CG to the edge to gr dtilt or just grab release is alot of damage and its not like he has a huge problem killing.

Its not a counterpick matchup but I don't think its even either. I'd agree with 60-40 in DDD's favor. Once he knows the matchup, you just have to guess right more than he does.

Punishment!

F-smash - Lots you can use to punish this, it's laggy
D-smash - Same as Fsmash
U-smash - Same
F-tilt - Not much you can do if it's spaced correctly
D-tilt - Shieldgrab, possibly Ftilt if your in range
U-tilt - If you airdodge the hitbox above D3, jab
Dash Attack - Shieldgrab, or a lot of other options. This move is waaaay laggy.
Jab - Ftilt, maybe shieldgrab
Bair - Not gonna punish it if auto canceled but if it's FFed use a smash
Fair - Uair
Uair - Just Airdodge
Dair - Same as Uair except shield
Nair - This move sucks and won't be used often.

Stages:
Strike: Yoshi's Island, Pokemon Stadium 1
Ban: Delfino Plaza, Halberd
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair, Jungle Japes

Frame Data:

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Written by rPSI
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Kirby
[45:55]​

[collapse=Kirby Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles:
---Kirby's Final Cutter - 13 %
D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 63

General MU:
-Kirby wins this MU with, Gimps. Play careful offstage.
-At low percents, a grab will end up giving you around 40-60%. So avoid getting grabbed.
---U-tilt and U-air can also start these strings
-At high percent avoid his F-smash, B-air, D-air, Stone and Air Hammer mostly.
-Never charge a U-smash or D-smash, or you're asking to be stoned
-Watch out for a footstool if you escape a Kirbycide. Use the same swallow rules you would against Kind DDD
-Kirby has trouble approaching us, his only approach is B-air, which a well spaced f-air will beat
-PK Fire is essential to this MU because Kirby is too good close range
-Kirby has no offstage projectiles, chase him w/ PKT and PK Freeze
-Do not let Kirby take you to the air, only try to play ground game against him

☆ I nearly always face Lucas, for some reason a lot of people around me loves using him, lol. Anyways it's an upchill battle to me, with Lucas's set up's to his F-Smash and sometimes his unexpected D-Smash. Sadly Lucas can be gimped hard with Kirby, and might die by his D-Air or B-Air if not careful when coming back, sometimes Stone when he uses his PK Thunder, (or if you face someone that knows how to use Stone really well, a rarity). Watch out for Kirby's strings, most of his strings start up's is when he throws you, sometimes it starts with U-Tilt, or U-Air, as you know, strings can lead to some awful after damage for example 0%-40%+ if your not careful. Most of Kirby's killing blows would be F-Smash, B-Air, D-Air, (when conditions are right), Down-B, (when conditions are right), and Air Hammer. ☆

Punishment:
B-air: Well spaced F-air, possibly Sheild-Grab
D-air: OoS Jab or F-tilt
F-smash: OoS F-smash (This goes with all other Smashes)
Whiffed Grab: F-tilt or Jab

You dont have to ps Kirby's fsmash to fsmash him back. It's free and easy. Random fsmashes get him killed in the matchup.

Stages:
Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat/PS1
Ban: Rainbow Cruise
CP: Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, possibly Battlefield

☆ Lucas does better on Delfino Plaza than Kirby does. =P ☆

☆ Lucas best counter picks would be Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, and maybe Battlefield. Do not pick the stages you said and to add Frigate Orpheon. ☆

☆ Inhale to the water current FTW!!! ☆

Frame Data:

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Written by rPSI
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Pikachu
[45:55 - 50:50]
*Rediscuss MU to finalize MU descision*​

[collapse=Pikachu Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles:
---Thunder: 25%
---Thunder Jolt: 23%
D-air to D-tilt lock %: 64

General MU:
-Pikachu's F-smash outranges our F-smash
-Pikachu has trouble approaching us, use that to your advantage!
-Nasty's take to the MU:

You think it's even? idk dude. His attacks in general may be faster but let's break things down.

Advantages:
1. Our Aerials overall have higher priority
2. His kill moves are null and void (Thunder bc we should always expect it and should NEVER miss one opportunity to heal from it and Dsmash bc you can Smash DI upwards out of it).
3. He has a hard time gimping us bc if he comes out over the ledge we can:
a.) spike him with Bair or Dair
b.) zap jump
c.) magnet pull or
d.) a combination of both B and C.
4. His recovery is not that hard to predict if he is using his side B to come back to the stage. We can gimp him out of this or other recoveries by:
a.) Predict where side B will place him and hit him with PK freeze
b.) Predict side B and hit him with PKT1
c.) If he lands on the stage with either side B or Up B we can Usmash him. or
d.) Spike him right before he grabs the ledge
5. We can spam PKF so he can not approach which is very frustrating for him bc he needs to approach. If he doesn't approach all he has is tjolt spam and we can heal that and magnet cancel so we don't get punished.
6. WBPKF is very useful to keep your distance and once he predicts this and tries to approach us a little higher than we can just adjust by FHing a WBPKF rather than SHing it.
7. With all our PKF spam, jabs, and Nairs, our Fsmash will not should not be decayed so we'll be able to kill him earlier.

Disadvantages:
1. QAC (quick attack cancel) is his best approach and he can mind game the f*** out of you.
2. His attacks are quicker but if we keep our distance this should not pose a problem (does our jab beat his? if so, then anytime he's in close to us can't we just jab or maybe Nair or even Nair > jab and then back away again?)
3. His Fsmash has just a tad bit longer range than ours.
4. His Uair can juggle us?

These are some quick thoughts. Any comments/corrections? These are the reasons why i believe we have the advantage in this MU and i don't believe lucas has many MU advantages.. especially in the higher tiers.

-How Hailcrest responds to the MU:

1. And disjointedness. So spacing really is important in this matchup.
2. His Usmash is quick and powerful. Nair OOS may sometimes also be a surprise kill.
3. a) I doubt that because I don't think they would go that far offstage, I'd think Wavebounced Thunder would be a better option for them b) Hell yeah c) Prevents thunder gimping too d) Awesome.
4. His UpB has a humongous sweetspot, and because of that his recovery's pretty hard to gimp. As for Side B, it has a ****load of lag at the end so if pika is aiming for the stage and not the ledge, hello usmash. If he aims for the ledge, hello dsmash. I'd think that d) is rather impractical.
5. PK Fire's hitbox still comes out even if tjolt cancels it. That means if we are able to hit the jolt soon after it comes out of Pika, it'll hit him for 5%
6. Pika may also crawl/taunt to avoid PK Fire (lol on the second one)
7. His Nair comes out in 2 frames. And I'm pretty sure it beats our nair.

Disadvantages:
1. this. However QAC has a limited range and he will get quite a bit of lag once he lands after his followup from QAC (the lag prevented by double jumping will "carry over" to the time he lands next time). So proper spacing is again important. Also watch out for the QAC lock and DI, DI, DI.
2. His attacks are faster but they extend his hurtbox. Spacing!
3. Tad longer range in exchange for 2-3 extra frames of startup.
4. I'm not sure on this point.

Also, DI is @#$% important in this matchup. Not DIing from dsmash will shoot us up vertically and at higher percents the hitstun is long enough for thunder to hit poor Lucas before he pulls out a magnet. DIing from Quick Attack Lock (QAL) is also important because at 70% we're perfect candidates for pika's Jab Lock, and QAL works at percents below that. All his smashes are potential killers and sadly Fsmash is the slowest coming out on the 17th frame but with quite a bit of lag (if pika misjudges the range, Dsmash will hit him). Also one thing to remember is that Fsmash's sweetspot is at pika's cheeks and not the tip, the tip has weaker knockback and damage and can't kill.

-The Vince's Pikachu response to Nasty:

This match-up is dead even, maybe 51-49 in lucas' favor, but not 55-45...



1. Pika's fair and dair have greater priority, although I'd assume Lucas' aerials have more range over all. Sure, this might be an advantage, but Pikas honestly aren't going to try and challenge you in the air. If you are trying to come at us with an aerial, we can just thunder or roll away.. its kind of obviously if you jump at us what you are going to do.

2. Just because you have a magnet doesn't mean you are always going to use against every single thunder we use. You can never assume this. Sure, you might to absorb a few, but I guarantee this won't stop us from using thunder altogether.

Also, thunder and dsmash aren't our only kill moves BY FAR. QAC -> nair is a favorite of most pikas. Usmash is a good vertical killer, fmash smash has more range than your fmash, but it only really kills if it sweetspots (sweetspot is at the cheeks).

3. Pika's main source of gimping is using thunder, if you are going to try and just spam magnet to recover, we aren't going to thunder. Once again, nair is really nice for killing and gimping in the air, expect it to be used. It is relatively easy to predict where your pkt2 recovery will land (if you aren't aiming for the edge). I secondary Ness, so I know the gimpability of pkt2 recovery. Just aim for the edge and hope we don't grab it first.

4. I lol'd. Honestly, anyone that thinks they can gimp a good pika my as well start thinking otherwise. Pika has disputably one of the best recoveries, having so many options. Sure, Lucas obviously has a little bit of an upperhand having a lot of projectiles, but pika can avoid projectiles easily being a small target. Regarding the bit about recovering to the stage, no good pika is going to skull bash and land on the stand, it's easy to punish. Your best bet for gimping is pk freeze I guess. It seems... big. Other than that, pkt is horribly slow..

6. I have no idea what that is lol but I'd assume it is useful..

7. I guess, hypothetically. Don't rely to much on your fmash. Pika's fsmash, and probably his dlit outrange it.

1. Yes

2. Pikas don't really jab alot.. but pika's jab does have some range. Go for it if you want though.

3. Yes

4. Uair isn't really a major juggling tool... Mostly nair. Expect to get juggled a bit though. It isn't really pika's strongest point imo.

-Don't try to asorb thunder after getting hit up because you usually can't shake the hitstun off fast enough, just DI away from it.

Punishment:

Assuming all these are blocked and not ps'ed, biggest punish is listed. If you powershield, you can adjust accordingly by changing
1) Jabs/tilts > Dairs
2) Dairs > Fsmash/Dsmash
3) Fsmash > Dsmash
4) Dsmash > Usmash
5) Usmash > you're a greedy *****, yknow that?


Jabs/tilts: No possible punish unless you predict the followup. Ftilt is the exception in that we can fsmash out of shield with perfect timing. Dair is the suggested punishment.
D-smash: Dsmash. Possibly Usmash if you get pushed out early enough.
F-smash: Dsmash. This one surprised me. I thought Fsmash was his least laggy smash attack but if you don't get pushed back too far after blocking it, you can destroy him.
Dash Attack: Usmash. This was also surprising.
U-smash: Dsmash

Aerials: Out Range / Space against them
N-air: Nothing really unless fastfalled. If he does fastfall it, you get Fsmash
D-air: Nothing really unless fastfalled. If he does fastfall it, you get Dsmash
F-air: OoS Jab or Tilts, Out of hit: Try to jump out. If he fastfalls on block, you get free tilts.

Specials:
---Down B: PSI Magnet
---Neutal B: PSI Magnet
---Up B: N-air
---Side B: Usmash if you manage to block it. Hitting him out of it when he's recovering/sweetspotting is the issue.

Stages:
Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Halberd
Counterpick: Brinstar, Jungle Japes

Frame Data:

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Written by rPSI
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R.O.B.
[40:60]
​

[collapse=R.O.B. Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles:
--Laser:
----Half Charge: 13%
----Full Charge: 23%
D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 76

General MU:
-The most effective form of edgegaurding would be actual aerials, most likely u-air underneath ROB
-

ROB's N-air has a huge disjoint and can be spaced well. He tries this, you're going to want to PK Fire his landing. However you have to time it well otherwise he'll PS it. Retreating F-air is also pain to get around, it has a good disjoint, but a well spaced f-air should do the trick, or like always PK Fire his landing.
Once we get inside, we have limited options. We're usually going to jabing and sheildgrabbing his jabs when you're inside. If you land your n-air, land behind him (don't land in front of him)and always jab and hope you jab in time to beat his D-smash OoS, otherwise you'll eat a d-smash. As soon as your jab clashes with D-smash get out of there and put him in range of PK Fire.
D-air is pretty legit because his u-smash has very limited range, but always make sure you space it correctly or you'll get grabbed / jab cancel comboed
Knowing your PK Fire range is good in this MU because ROB forces approaches if you guy just a little bit too far out of range, and he has really good defense close up.
Once you're out of PK Fire range, this is when you're going to want to either
A) just stand there and wait for his projectiles
or B) try to get back to PK Fire range
Once you're out of range, he'll probably have his Gyro charged up for quick access. If he shoots his gyro don't try to pick it up immediately, if you can shield it. If you can't don't pick it up, but f-smash it to make it yours once it's yours pick it up and throw it upwards or wait for him to approach you or try to get the gyro back. At that point you can usually expect a laser or f-tilt. If he's far away, try to look for the animation of him starting to fire his lasers, or at least try to predict it and put your magnet up. If he comes and f-tilts, get behind the gyro and PK Fire to punish him. NEVER LET ROB PICK UP HIS OWN GYRO . He'll glide toss combo the crap out of you. He'll pretty much either get a free f-smash or grab. You might want to try SHAD or F-smash to reflect the gyro. (There are other ways variations too)

If you try to PK Fire when you're out of PK Fire range, you'll eat a laser, or possibly a gyro.

Offstage, try to make sure he doesn't WoP you with f-air, because it can lead to an up-b cancel to b-air.

ROB's F-tilt has hunormous range, don't challenge it with any of your moves. Just try to stay out of his F-tilt range and PK Fire. When he's charging his gyro he usually will be retreating, before you try to PK Fire read the direction he is going, he can't change directions while charging without airdodging first so run up and PK Fire. Oh yeah, and never do SH Wavebounced PK Fire in this MU, otherwise, laser.

-N-air to U-tilt is very good in this MU
-D-tilt is a good shield poker b/c of ROB's large frame
-His spacing tools are safe on Lucas' sheild, so punish it!
-Juggle him, he is really weak from below
-Item jumping is viable with his Gyro
-Watch out for D-smash OoS, it's fast and it hits behind him, aim to land out of d-smash range
-SHAD and F-smash are the best way to pick up the Gyro
-ROB is limited when recovering in his Up-B, but only his Up-B try to U-air him out of it
-Don't camp, unless you uber good with predictions
-NEVER LET HIM PICK UP HIS GYRO
-

Rob maintains most of his advantages when retreating, so the appropriate call may end up being chasing him from outside melee range of both characters to the end of the stage and threatening to close the gap till rob commits with a punishable move like d/fsmash or landing w/ fair.

Even if we're forced to approach, we're never forced to approach "now".

-

ROB > Lucas close, but not point blank.

Sadly, getting to point blank is near impossible.

Lol, if he ledge camps he either has to
A) Laser: Asorb
B) Gyro: F-smash/Grab/Cancel/ Don't stand that close
C) Anything else: he'll probably going to have to use fuel so just wait for it to run low so he has to come back to the stage unless he has a marginal lead, in which you're going to want to attack him, which isn't too horribly hard.

-Don't roll on stage otherwise you'll get d-smashed

Punishment:

Assuming all these are blocked and not ps'ed, biggest punish is listed. If you powershield, you can adjust accordingly by changing
1) Jabs/tilts > Dairs
2) Dairs > Fsmash/Dsmash
3) Fsmash > Dsmash
4) Dsmash > Usmash
5) Usmash > you're a greedy *****, yknow that?


Jabs: You can punish his jabs with your jabs/tilts.
Ftilt: Dair (might be tough since this is usually used to space and dair needs to be done close), might have to settle for shieldgrab)
Dtilt: Jabs, utilt with perfect timing assuming he tries to block after dtilt. If he's spamming dtilt, you can squeak in an ftilt but jabs/ftilt are recommended.
Utilt: Frame perfect fsmash punish (assuming the second hitbox misses Lucas), dair is suggested punishment.
D-smash: Frame perfect fsmash punish, dair is suggested.
F-smash: Fsmash
U-smash: It cant hit you in your shield unless you're on a platform above him. If you do block it on a platform and don't get pushed off (or sidestep the hit), you have enough time to drop through and hit him with any aerial.
Dash Attack: Fsmash

Aerials:
N-air: Jab/utilt
D-air: Lol really? Run usmash that *****. If he does it too low so the hitbox doesnt come out and he just lands, you can fsmash. Problem is that you cant react to shieldstun for timing since there isnt any shieldstun (no hitbox) so its best to go for the dair or ftilt depending on spacing.
F-air: Jab/utilt
B-air: Jab/utilt
U-air: Fsmash

Specials:
---Down B: N/A
---Neutal B: PSI Magnet
---Up B: N/A
---Side B: No data

Other:
Under 100% Ledge Attack: Dsmash
Over 100% Ledge Attack: Fsmash
Get-up Attack: Fsmash

Stages:
Strike: Final Destination, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Frigate Orpheon or Delphino Plaza
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair

Frame Data:

[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
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Wario
[40:60 - 35:65]
*Rediscussion to finalize MU*​

[collapse=Wario Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles: NO
D-air to D-tilt Lock %:
General MU:

(About Grab Release to F-smash) Fsmash is guaranteed. It's not hard to do/land since we basically just have to buffer it and it comes out fast enough every time. Against a wall obviously we can regrab, but I don't think Wario pummels fast enough to force Lucas to ground break.

Fair for us outranges your Nair. Our Nair trades hits with yours if done right. Your Fair outranges our aerials I believe, but overall it's kinda risky to use against Wario. If you use it and he comes at you and you whiff/he airdodges, you will probably get punished for it.

Camping Dair can work but you can't get greedy with it. That and you have to know when to back off since Wario moves faster horizontally than you. Bair, don't even bother with it 90% of the time.

Jab is pretty good against Wario when done at the right time. Wario hits pretty fast, but Jab keeps him in check at surprising moments. Ftilt is ok, but if you miss it's gonna suck. Fsmash is pretty safe if you force Wario to shield it. He can punish usually if he is able to spotdodge or if you miss otherwise. Usmash, eww. Dsmash, it's ok but I think Fsmash overall is safer, at least against Wario. If he was slower in the air/not as flexible, then I could see Dsmash being as good as Fsmash or better in this matchup.

Try not to PK Fire camp THAT hard. Like Wario usually is forced to dodge it, but he doesn't lose ground/doesn't potentially put himself in danger by doing so. That and if he reads it well enough, he can surprise DACUS at you before it comes out.

Recovering you have to be careful, Wario has some dirty tricks. Like Zap Jumping is usually a good idea, you just have to be wary about going over Wario at the wrong time, considering he can follow you pretty well even if he guesses wrong on which direction you try to descend from/weave from. If you are forced to use PKT2, you have some other things to worry about.

Wario's Bike can stop Lucas in his Tracks while recovering, force him to eat a bunch of damage and fall downwards, and it gives Wario further time to edgeguard you further/stage spike you. Also if you time it wrong, Bike can "clash" and basically eat the PKT before it reaches you. Wario can also make it disappear by Fairing it and Dairing it (Nair and Uair work, but those are far more harder to implement successfully under normal circumstances). I've even seen Wario's Upb cling and break PKT, so in General just be careful of hit "eating" it up and leaving you to die.


Overall I think it's 60:40 Wario. I'm looking at some of the other characters you have done, and like he does better than Falco does, but he's no Snake/Marth/really hard matchup for Lucas. I think he does better than ROB though, but not enough to portray Wario as 65:35.

-Never, ever, let Wario gets the percentage lead. Other wise the MU might as well be 90:10
-You're definitely going to be abusing jab
-Watch out for u-air and f-smash at kill percents
-If you somehow get a grab at the edge, you can force and air release to b-air spike. He'll probably SDI and tech it though if he's DMG


Punishment:

Wario Punishment

Aerials - Laugh at yourself for whiffing a punish

Jab 1 - Hold shield up
Jab 2 - D-air
Dash Attack - U-smash
F-tilt - D-air
D-tilt - F-smash
U-tilt - F-smash (Near frame perfect)
F-smash - D-smash (I would suggest sheild grab though b/c of pushback)
D-smash - U-smash
U-smash - F-smash

Side-B - Hit him off :3
Up-B - Sheild and Punish Landing
Down-B - No info
Neutral-B - F-smash when he closes his mouth

Stage Discussion!

Apply the same logic that Galeon uses for PS

Stages:
Stage Strike: Battlefield, Lylat
Counterpick: Norfair, PS2 (unfortunately usually these are illegal)
Ban: RC, Frigate

Frame Data:

[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
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Olimar
[45:55 - 50:50]
*Rediscuss to finalize MU descision*
​

[collapse=Olimar Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles: NO
D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 65

General MU:
Chuee's Basic Summary:

There are 3 things you can do against his pikmin toss.
1. You can Nair them while they're latched onto you.
2. Dsmash them when they're on you or when he throws them but keep in mind it stalls your Dsmash.
3. PKF them when he throws them, Reds will survive this others won't.
There are others that work like dtilt and jab but I like these.

Sooner or later you're going to have to approach him. Nair and Fair will get pivot grabbed. As for Dair i think his usmash clanks with it or something. If he grabs you at low%, you're gonna get about 30-40%. All of them except purples will combo into another grab and then an Usmash.

Once you get inside him jab and ftilt work well since they're fast. Olimar's Fsmash outranges us. I don't think purples will though. Getting utilts at low% leads to an Uair or Nair since Olimar's dair isn't that great. If he gets you above him use Dair.

When he's offstage, DON'T use PKT onless he only has 2-3 pikmin. You'll only give a free way back. His tether with full pikmin is long and comes out fast. His whistle will also beat out anything you try to throw at him. Try to predict the whistle and punish. If he's far enough out that he still isn't onstage with his DJ go for the ledgegrab. If you're at high% time your edgegrab so that he'll go for the tether when you still have invincibility frames or when you go for a ledge attack so that he'll die and you won't either. If you're at low% you really shouldn't worry about it unless you don't won't small damage. If you're offstage watch out for his Fsmash, it has amazing range and it goes off the stage. If you're not careful you'll be using PKT and get extra damage.

Olimar is pretty light so Fsmash kills him early, and you can get Dair dtilt locks early. Olimar's main kill move is Usmash. If you're at kill% WATCH HIS PIKMIN ORDER. It really helps you predict when he will go for an Usmash or Fsmash. Purples kill REALLY early so watch out for those. Purple fsmash range isn't that great so stay out of it's range in kill%.

Some of the different pikmin colors may beat our Fair with theirs. I think our Dair beats their Uair. Our Uair >his Dair.

Nasty's Basic Summary:

ok here are some quick thoughts of mine on this MU:

- i find nair to work really well in this MU.. especially Nair > Jab combo
- Most ppl know we go from Nair > Jab combo so after the first or second jab you should grab if they are sheilding bc they will most likely grab you if you don't connect with any of those hits.
- Our Dair loses to his Uair if he has a yellow pikmin (i am almost 100% sure of this)
- His UpB is super fast so be careful when quick grabbing the ledge or you'll get stage spiked
- If you are on the ledge while olimar is trying to recover they will either:
A) look for a purple pikmin to hit you with before they use their upB or
B) wait till your invincibility frames are gone and they will use their UpB causing them to die but it may also stage spike you. (So be aware of your %age and decide if it's worth taking the hit OR have extremely good timing getting up from the ledge)
- Yellow pikmin make your Nair laaggggg so this could be a good opportunity to attempt to trick them by using Nair so they drop their shield sooner
- Yellow pikmin also laaaggg our Dsmash when one is stuck to you so you may be able to trick them by using it here as well.
- If you are at high %age and olimar spams pikmin at you, don't worry about it. You are about to die anyway so my attitude is just let it go, let him run out of pikmin and then take advantage of the situation.
- NEVER chase an olimar who is running away, you WILL get pivot grabbed
- PKF can only do so much to stop pikmin spam, you will have to approach sooner rather than later.

APC's Basic Summary:

back on topic...

-you know was better (or as least as good) than jab? Dtilt. It stops most of Olimar's ground attacks, specially his shield grab (which is slow) and smash attacks. Use jab cancel to dtilt often
-his uair is really good, it doesn't matter which pikmin he's using, it still has good priority, if his using a yellow pikmin, you'll get hit
-when his on the ledge, his getup attack has an amazing range for such a small character, it can be tricky
-his pikmin toss is not much of a deal, a simple jab would stop them the problem is when they're tossing purple pikmins. I'm not sure, but i think attacking a pikmin will refresh your attacks
-nair is better than dair in this matchup
-i don't agree with you guys when you said to don't PKT when he's off stage, just PKT as soon as you hit him and stay in a save place (like under a platform). He can't punish you that good, the worst you can get is a purple pikmin in your face
-He doen't like to get grabbed. Everytime you land a grab, is a free way to put him in the air. When do grab? If you shield his dsmash, it is a free grab. Don't try to grab his other smash attacks, wait for the dsmash (double smash, like usmash (miss)+dsmash is pretty common)
-While his in the air, you have a BIG advantage. A well-timed Uair beats his Dair or you can just wait for him to land and jab or pivot grab (use it with the proper mindgame)
-it's hard to punish his grounded upB or sh upB, he recovers very fast, just stay away and PK fire

-Try to keep track of which Pikmin he has in the line.
---White ones will rack up damage if he grabs and pummels or side-b's them onto you
---Purple ones will kill you early: U-smash around 85-90ish and U-throw. They have less range though.
---Blue ones they are pretty all around, but have a really strong b-throw and f-throw
---Yellow ones are annoying and n-air won't kill them HOWEVER! If you are thown with a yellow one, attack ASAP, there is no hitstun afterwards
---Red ones are immune to PK Fire and have a lethal f-air/b-air
---Terrain Pikmin Pluck
-PK Thunder gimp is Grape
-N-air and Jab are the most reliable forms to get Pikmin off of you
-D-air is the best approach in this MU b/c his U-smash is out-prioritized by nearly every physical attack (Think Snake U-smash)
-N-air, Jab, and D-tilt are also the most effective form of hurting Olimar
-SDI out of N-air, but do not SDI out of U-tilt. If you SDI out of U-tilt, then you get d-smashed
-NEVER chase an olimar who is running away, you WILL get pivot grabbed

Punisment:
Galeon Ain't got my frames
I'll get this up in a bit

Stages:
Strike: Final Destination, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Luigi's Mansion If it is banned then: Halberd or Delphino Plaza
Counterpick: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon

Frame Data:

[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
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Ice Climbers
[45:55]
*REDISCUSS*​

[collapse=Ice Climbers Summary]
Quick Tips:
D-air to D-tilt Lock % (SoPo): 70
Magnetable Projectiles:
--Blizard: 45-90%

General MU:
-Don't get grabbed.
--Be careful when doing anything to their shield and retreat everything properly
--N-air is very good on IC's however, don't do it on a full sheild. Only do it when you know it will sheild poke or else you will be pivot grabbed.
-If they do grab you mash buttons like it's the end of the world, Lucas is one of the hardest chars to chaingrab. (This doesn't affect the ratio though, this is just a general tip)
-Separate them!
--N-air and PKT/PKT2 are godly at separateing the IC's (however, PKT is risky b/c you might get grabbed)
-Once they are separated:

Once they're separated you have to ward off popo and go for nana. If nana is still onstage ward of the controlled one with ftilt or PKF. When nana runs towards popo, use Fsmash or Dsmash. Nana is controlled by an AI and will run into anything to get back to popo.

-Blizzard heals us, but they usually use it desynched so if you try to asorb it you will likely get grabbed. So try to get hit by the last hits and DI away to avoid getting grabbed.
-PK Fire when they desynch blizzard
-

Uair goes through everything, not just dair, yes you have no simple way to kill nana, lucas doesn't have the tools to keep ics seperated easily, pkt is ok against them offstage it's really not that hard to get back, and you're not sure about nair being pivot grabbed because you've never played a good IC lol. Most of lucas's moves can be pivot grabbed by IC's. Full hopped dair is easily countered by just uairing, IC's uair does over 20% and combos into itself for over 40% of damage from 0, falling nair combos into grab, uair frametraps airdodges, interchanging full hopped blizzards with aireals doesn't let lucas absorb anything and sets up for grabs if lucas trys to...Ton of things.

I mean SINGLE climber can Chaingrab lucas till 76%. Single climber also has a walking cg on lucas with dthrow for a pretty long time, till past 50% before IC's have to start dashing IIRC.

-Off stage and on platforms are good for Lucas
-If the IC's are off stage then:
--If they are high up and use side-B, U-smash them.
--If they recover low, PKT
-Kill Nana and camp the s*** out of Popo.
--He's either stuck suiciding and losing a stock or ends up timing out when you have the lead.

Stages:
Strike: FINAL DESTINATION, Lylat Cruise or Yoshi's Island
Ban: Final Destination, Final Destination or Final Destination. (Did I mention Final Destianation?)
CP: Rainbow Cruise, Battle Field, Norfair, Brinstar

Frame Data:
Desynch ruins everything Stupid Sakurai
[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
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Zelda
[55:45]​

[collapse=Zelda Summary]
Quick Tips:
D-throw to U-tilt: NO
Asorbable Projectiles:
--Din's Fire: 28%
D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 67

General MU:
-You're not going to want to play a close range game against Zelda
-You're going to want to get the lead and camp ASAP, but be careful about rushing in, Zelda is an extremely defensive character.
-If you're going to edgehog her, you can easily do it with your Dusters Rope Snake
-Zelda's aerial game is extremely mediocre, just make sure she doesn't land a sweetspot.
-If you can, try to bait Nayru's love, however a smart Zelda will not be using this move
-Zelda's U-tilt has more range than d-air
-D-air > Zelda's U-smash
-Watch out for her d-tilt up close and prepare to DI it.
-If you get the lead NEVER approach, sit on it and profit
-Approaching Zelda will be a big pain however. Bait and profit.
-Our jab is faster than nearly everything she has.

Punishment:
Zelda Punishment:

Assuming all these are blocked and not ps'ed, biggest punish is listed. If you powershield, you can adjust accordingly by changing
1) Jabs/tilts > Dairs
2) Dairs > Fsmash/Dsmash
3) Fsmash > Dsmash
4) Dsmash > Usmash
5) Usmash > you're a greedy *****, yknow that?


Jabs: n/a
Ftilt: F-tilt
Dtilt: Jab
Utilt: Frame Perfect U-smash (F-smash is prefered)
D-smash:
--Front: D-smash
--Back: F-smash
F-smash: D-air
U-smash: F-smash
Dash Attack: F-smash (Frame perfect D-smash)

Aerials: n/a

Specials:
---Down B: Charged U-smash
---Neutral B: F-smash
---Up B: F-smash
---Side B: PSI Magnet


Stages:
Strike: Yoshi's Island, Final Destination
Ban: No definite ban
Counterpick: Brinstar, Frigate Oprheon

DMG Section:
Reserved for DMG

Frame Data:

[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
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Sheik
[40:60]​

[collapse=Sheik Summary]
Quick Tips:
D-throw to U-tilt: NO
Asorbable Projectiles: NO
D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 67

General MU:
DmT MaNgA's Summary:

I'll come in for the Sheik half of it.

Right off the bat, Lucas is not camping Sheik. Anyone who thinks they can camp even a half-decent Sheik with Lucas is greatly mistaken.

Sheik is a monster in racking damage close range, and also quite adept at it at long range (Needle storm fresh is 18% fully charged, hence the camping.) Usually Sheik has to watch her spacing very closely to keep herself safe, but in the case of Lucas more often than not Sheik can safely pressure his shield, since a shield grab is not a thing to worry about and Lucas doesn't really have any OoS option that will end Sheik's onslaught.

Some things Sheik will do:

- Camp needles to force Lucas to approach. Lucas can be punished for almost all of his approaches easily by Sheik, save for a few that work quite well for you guys that i will mention later on.
- Look for a grab > ground break GR into Ftilt lock > regrab/ finisher. Finisher will either be a utilt, fair, or nair generally. If she gets the regrab, expect another grab release ground break forced at percents under 90-100%. This leads to A LOT of damage.
- At higher %s, a grab from Sheik will usually mean forcing air breaks after maybe 1 pummel just for extra damage, and dashing in to regrab. This is true versus Lucas at high percents, and essentially guarantees getting Lucas to the edge of the stage, upon which the Sheik forces one last air break letting Lucas free fall down. This leads to the gimping routine:
- Sheik can easily force a PKT2 recovery from here by simply grabbing the edge. Once Lucas starts the PKT2 animation, a smart Sheik will know not to try to interrupt, but to get right back on the stage near the edge, and let out the chain. The chain DOES indeed stop the PKT2 Lucas from grabbing the edge much more often than not, and after dealing a decent amount of damage, it lets Lucas freefall to attemp another PKT2 and often in a bad position, while Sheik is safely waggling her chain. This often continues until the Lucas is too far down or somehow in a bad position in an attempt to DI out of the Chain hits, at which point the Sheik would finish the gimp by simply hogging the edge.

Yes, Sheik can be very troublesome. However, this is pretty much, alongside the GR-DACUS, her only way of reliably killing, if that.


Now for Lucas. His approaches are usually something to laugh at as Sheik, except for that dreaded dair. A FH Dair can be very annoying, and has always given me the most pressure by far out of any of Lucas' approaches. There's also the very important setup into a usmash kill that it provides with dair > dtilt > usmash. This will get you kills vs Sheik very often near the 100% mark, since that specific combo doesn't seem to work at lower percents, but at least the usmash makes for a guaranteed kill at such high percents.

-Sheik can GR to dash-grab you across the stage to put you in a high pressure situation to get gimped. Try to save your double jump as she does so.
-Sheik has a poor sheild
-Sheik can gimp you at higher pecents
-Don't get grabbed

Punishment:
Shiek Boards have crappy frame data, troll them for better frame data

Stages:
Strike: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island
Ban: Norfair
Counterpick: Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon

DMG Section:
Reserved for DMG

Frame Data:

[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
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Zero Suit Samus
[45:55]​

[collapse=Zero Suit Samus Summary]
Quick Tips:
D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 65
D-throw to U-tilt: NO
Asorbable Projectiles:
--Paralyzer: 10/14
--D-smash: 28/30

General MU:
Lil CJ's Summary

Ok ZSS is good, really good.
I use her as a secondary
Heres what I know:
Her aerial game is powerful and she has range vertically and horizontally.
She's not as easy to gimp as most people think and she has some impressive combos.
But she doesnt beat us that bad, she cant camp with paralyzer cause we can magnet it and if we can see it coming we also eliminate the use of her famous dsmash with magnet.
Her aerial game is better than ours though. Her upair is her best move and best aerial in the game, ZSS players use it ALOT. It can also beat our dair and everyone's else's if spaced right.
She also outranges us with her plasma whip, but it has a blind spot at the part closet to Zamus. As for approaching, if she does approach it will be with dash attack most likely and she can use jab,utilt,ftilt, and dtilt after it. Nair is safe approach for us against her, but not dair, she can use upsmash and up b against us and even better uair. She's light so we can kill her easily, but she can live a little bit longer if she use her down b to momentum cancel. When trying to recover watch out for her dsmash, ZSS players will usually try to use dsmash right as your trying to get back to the ledge which could lead to a down b spike, so when you can recovery above the stage with magnet pull, if your below the stage zap jump. At close range we win, our jab and ftilt is faster than any move she has except maybe her jab. Imo she not really good at close range combat,but watch for her spotdodge to utilt. Her grab is as slow and laggy as ours so dont worry about getting grabbed unless she paralyzes you first. She will usually use down throw, which is her best and follow up with aerials. At high percentages watch out for dsmash because when she paralyzes you she will use a KO move (bair,fair,plasma whip,and down b) and there nothing you can do, you will lose a stock. I think thats everything, I know its alot lol.
This matchup imo is 55-45 in ZSS' favor.

PF's Response:

hmmmm. we lose.

Her jab kills us.

jab1 -> roll back actually works as a gtfo tactic -_-

Oddly enough, I've never lost a set to a ZSS, though he's my crewmate. D:

Now to nitpick @ CJ.

Her side B doesn't have more range than PK fire

Holy crap, there is no way her Uair is the best aerial in the game.

If they predict nair then her dsmash beats it.

Our dair clanks with her Up B.

We don't really "win" up close, it's pretty even tbh.

NickRiddle's Summay:

If timed right, ZSS can jump over PK Fire and hit you with our >B.

Our Uair beats every aerial you guys have if spaced right.

If we go out to edge-guard you, we're probably going to die.

D-smashing your Rope-Snake is pretty funny, and if we get that, it's basically your stock, so
don't be predictable.

Our ground game consists of tilts, mostly d-tilt and u-tilt.

D-tilt outranges most of your moves, and it's fast, so try to get a little in our face.

U-tilt is fast, but has a lot of after-lag. Try to bait it and punish us for doing it.

You can DI our jab down, and shield the third jab. From that, you probably get a free f-
smash.

Also, running u-smash to punish our whiffed grabs.

Not the best write-up. Galeon can fill in what he notices, as he plays me a lot.

NoradSeven's Summary:

First off I like to thank you for having a guide which defines how you guys define matchup ratios, cause.... smash boards doesn't do it traditionally, I could go into a sperging fit here but lets not derail thanks for having that up.

I really wouldn't try to fight lucas with over B in this match too many ways he can screw us over, I would go for a solid poke game with d-tilts, and n-airs, and b-airs, d-smash too sometimes, and if the lucas lets me go for a more reactionary game play.

Also dear god don't try to up B recover too much against ZSS, I got good at timing that d-smash lol, however your over B down B recovery glitch thingy is decent, though we can punish with u-air its not a life or death gamble, but there are tricks to fool us that Im sure you guys know.

Basically I think its a p. close poking game, lucas maybe scoring a few more hits, but once your in the air its our game, and if your off the edge your in a big trouble spot.

Like I was saying though this is a weird *** fight for both sides, if neither side had a good bit of exp I would go and say 55:45 lucas, I mean lucas's f-smash is a **** good punisher to our **** and we gotta adjust our moves to accommodate for that, plus ZSS over B spam doesn't work well(something alot of players resort to when they don't know the matchup), and lucas d-smash is down right scary until you learn how to land and PS between hits, and that n-air beats/trades with it every time :D.


Replys to other comments:
I have said before and will say it again ZSS probably has the worst grab in brawl her throws are good though.

ZSS's U-tilt comes out on frame 3, and hits on both sides, and is HORRIBLY unsafe on block, if a ZSS plans on using u-tilt it better **** well hit...hint we normally use it as an OSS, or after a dash attack(should only do it on hit but sometimes well).

Ohh riddle I wonder are you ever going to become like me and grab so rarely ppl are literally shocked to discover that ZSS has a grab. Because in my mind against most the cast ya gotta land 3 grabs to make up for 1 missing .

Any ZSS that goes past jab 2 on a grounded opponent is ****ing with you hell they shouldn't go past the first jab its a free punish on hit and bad on block, most ZSS players jab to use the 1 frame advantage and use human reaction time (around .2seconds at best), to crouch cancel and poke with something else.

comedy note: I lost a stock in a tourney from lucas neutral B(aka Ike's bane)... I put down my controller and facepalmed, then picked it back up again, and spawned.

Last note:
If you PS our dash attack f-smash us :D, only works if we hit you with one of the earlier hitboxes of the dash attack, aka if we do it up close.

Also before you think this is all my character is the best and I have the I main my character gives him +10 bonus to matchup, ask the other ZSS's Im considered very pessimistic on most of our matches. On only like 2-3 matches do I think they are better than advertised.

-Don't PK Fire camp:

Pk fire camping is bad. Her run speed makes powershielding -> dash attack -> more gayness an extremely viable option.

Punishment:
Assuming all these are blocked and not ps'ed, biggest punish is listed. If you powershield, you can adjust accordingly by changing
1) Jabs/tilts > Dairs
2) Dairs > Fsmash/Dsmash
3) Fsmash > Dsmash
4) Dsmash > Usmash
5) Usmash > you're a greedy *****, yknow that?

Jabs: D-air
Ftilt: D-air
Dtilt: D-air
Utilt: U-smash
D-smash: Nope...
F-smash: U-smash
U-smash: D-air
Dash Attack: F-smash

Specials:
---Down B: n/a
---Neutal B: n/a
---Up B: n/a
---Side B: D-air

DMG Section:

Lucas can run from ZSS.

!!!!!!!!

Still 55:45 in her favor though.

Stages:
Strike: Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island or Battlefield
Ban: Lylat Cruise
Counterpick: Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon or possibly Jungle Japes

Frame Data:
Holy S*** the ZSS boards have horrible frame data.[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
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Toon Link
[40:60]

​

[collapse=Toon Link Summary]
Quick Tips:
D-air to D-tilt Lock%: 70
D-throw to U-tilt: X
Magnetable Projectiles: NO

General MU:
-Toon Link has an incredible camp game, you're going to want to make sure that learn to PS his projectiles
-Approaching from above Toon Link is going to be hard to do, with his U-air,U-tilt and U-smash being primary kill moves with good range and speed
-Avoid getting a down-smash from Toon Link at low-percents, it can put you in a very bad position
-When recoverying high, mix-up your DI to avoid getting hit by an U-air
-

A good toon link is a master at manipulating his projectiles. Toon link can outcamp lucas, not easily, but it's still really difficult for the lucas to keep up with the barrage. I generally find that after lucas has gotten past the deluge of weapons, he can generally combo the toon link rather easily, however, one has to keep in mind that even though toon link's strength is far away, he still has tools at close range, none of which we can shut down. Toon link however, has almost no setups for low damage kills on lucas, at least none that arent extremely easy to predict (i.e, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, only fsmash has any real killing potential below about 110. utilt kills at about 140, and if the TL hasnt used it at all up to that point, expect him to do so.) uair kills lucas very quickly, but again, unless you lack the ability to airdodge, or the TL traps you (boomerangs, bombs, lamp oil?) it should be somewhat easy to to dodge. Expect lucas to be able to kill TL at about 90-100 with fsmash, dtilt lock sets up early, at about 70 if I recall

-

This is probably one matchup where F-smashing to reflect projectiles is somewhat worthwhile, since his stuff is slow enough to react to, and you really don't want to have to be approaching TL the whole time.

Tyr's Synopsis:

I'm just perplexed by the concept of Toon Link easily gimping Lucas. Like **** all you have to do is not be ******** about his projectiles. I mean he can punish our recovery but so can basically everyone if they just grab the ledge.

TL is like Lucas in that he'll be afraid to use his grab since it's so punishable so you're moderately safe in your shield. Watch out for cross ups after that Zair and stuff. We're a lot faster than him up close so just cut the distance and start doing damage with jabs and tilts and whatnot. He beats us vertically with Uair and Dair so watch out for those. He's a good weight to Dair combo so you can get those off pretty often. I think it's probably like 60:40 TL's favor or something. It's not too bad. TL just has a few more tools than us like kill moves and better projectiles. Everytime you get him offstage you should be able to do damage with PKT1 which is nice. Just send it straight down when he's going for the ledge so that whether he uses Up B or tether he still gets hit. Sometimes you can get gimps this way but it's hard because they can DI it well and use bombs to let them Up B again and stuff like that.

-

Lucas has some trouble getting past TL's bair, so the trick will be to get in close and maybe nair out of shield to start TL on the defensive. You can powershield then grab our zair in most cases, and ftilt does pretty well against TL.

The stick is very good against boomerang, bc since TL doesn't catch it, he can't use it for a few seconds. I think you can nair through bombs.

Punishment:

DMG Section:

Toon Link:

Lucas can't really run from TL per se, but he has annoying tools to make TL have to work really hard to get you if you have the lead.

I'm pretty sure someone mentioned this, but PKT when TL is offstage *****. Maneuvering it correctly makes it near impossible for him to avoid it. The same applies onstage however as well. If the TL likes to DJ and pull out a bomb, PKT is near impossible to punish or avoid for him. The same goes for most of his projectiles actually if you are spaced correctly and read it.

Stages:
Strike: Yoshi's Island, Final Destination
Ban: Campy Stages (i.e. FD, Japes, Yoshi's)
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair, Battlefield

Frame Data:
[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Donkey Kong
[30:70]​

[collapse=Donkey Kong Summary]
Quick Tips:
D-air to D-tilt Lock%: 81
D-throw to U-tilt: NO
Asorbable Projectiles: NO

General MU:
-Do not get grabbed
-Do not get grabbed
-Do not get grabbed
-If you do get grabbed, you lose a stock. DK has an infinite to kill move that's gaureenteed on Lucas.
-Donkey Kong is really easy to combo. If you get past his wall of tilts, try to n-air and d-air combo. Just makes sure not to get grabbed
-It's incredibly hard to get inside his wall of tilts. Try to camp him and look for small opening.
-Do not go Lucas in this MU, it's terrible for Lucas.

Punishment:
Later, after I finish TL's

DMG Section:

As for DK, ew lol. Me no likey DK. Which is why I play as Wario

Stages:
Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Yoshi's Island
Counterpick: PS1, Norfair

Frame Data:
[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Samus
[55:45]​

[collapse=Samus Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles:
--Charge Shot: Varible
D-air to D-tilt Lock %: 77
D-throw to U-tilt: X

General MU:
-Samus will be shooting a lot of projectiles, I suggest you learn to Power Shield them.
-Watch out for z-air, it cancels out of airdodge and has a lot of range.
-Do not try to magnet CS unless you there is no traps and is definitely already out on the field.
-DO NOT GO OFFSTAGE

Samus vs Lucas
50:50​

Projectiles

Pk Ice( i dont know its name) is a horrible projectile and i HIGHLY recommend you NEVER use it vs samus.

Electric(pk thunder) is a TASTY move. It screws up samus recovery because of a few reasons: if samus bomb jumps, she is stuck in the ball animation for some time which means the thunder will hit her with ease. Samus is also a FLOATY so no matter if she airdodges or not, she falls SLOW so the thunder can hit her. This type of thing CAN gimp samus but the chances are slim because we have a GREAT recovery.

PK fire is REALLY REALLY annoying if you cannot powershield it. Lucas can throw it in a way that if you regular shield it, lucas can get away and it becomes a chasing game. Oh also, PK fire STOPS our charge shot/both missles but not zair.


As for samus we have lock-on missles/super missle/Charge shot and Zair. Now obviously, if you can PS then then they will become alot less usefull but what MOST people fail to realize is that samus DOES NOT use projectiles JUST to damage people. We use all 4 to set up for other damaging combos

Zair--> grab or charge shot or dash attack
Lock-on missle-->grab or pivot grab
Charge shot-->zair or dash attack or grab
Super missle--> dair or dash attack

Though you may powershield this, some of these lead to frame traps in which you WILL be punished(though it may not be massive damage). Not to mention, ALL of samus projectiles can gimp lucas with ease off stage and WAY off stage.


WINNER: Samus




Dishing Damage and KOs

Right off the bat, lucas wins this.

Samus spends MOST of the game camping and building up damage from projectiles and then goes in for the kill after 100%. What if you learned to PS? You just eliminated 80% of how samus builds damage on the foe. Now we must rely on getting up close to you and fighting you hand to hand.....which is NOT good for samus. Your nair EATS shields and can shield poke. Nair to jab or Nair to u-air is down right obscene. Your jab comes out faster than ours so thats not cool. Isnt dthrow to u-tilt guaranteed for a long *** time? As for KOing, tht stupid tree branch kills MEGA MEGA early and it can be COMBOED into. Dair to branch. D tilt to branch. Dair to dtilt to branch. Even if those dont KO you just did OBSCENE amounts of damage. You have a spike thats not to bad and a D smash that hits in FRONT and in back and some times that piece of **** hits me 2 times before i go flying. Up smash......this thing should NEVER hit but it seems to last MUCH longer than it should and it also kills MUCH earlier than it should. Freakin UP+B can even kill. There is this one glitch type thing where u can run off a platform and almost instantly UP+B into people. Plain ********.

All samus has is a spike and d tilt. Our Charge shot and fsmash will be weak from dishing out damage. lol so yea.


WINNER: lucas......big time.





Recovery/living


No need to explain this really.

Samus has a better jump/2nd jump than lucas. Our tether is longer and we can re-tether at more varied lengths than lucas can. We are MEGA FLOATY which means we can come back to the stage easier and we are also MUCH heavier than lucas so we will live longer. We can also stall in the air and move around with our bomb jumping.

Lucas has a tether but its mega short. Lucas can stall( a little) with his DOWN+B. He can also do that DOWN+B pull thingy(which is really cool btw). Other than that hes like ness....his recovery sucks. Lucas is pretty light so he dies kinda early.



WINNER: Samus




Stages

Neutrals:

Samus stages are good for lucas and lucas stages are good for samus. Unless lucas LOVES yoshi's island, samus and lucas have pretty much the same taste in neutrals. But as for counter picks, we each have our own secret weapons. 2 examples are below.


Brinstar:

Brinstar is the ONLY stage where i would rather fight a meta than a lucas. EVERY smash lucas has is extended(stays out longer) due to the pillars and the egg things on that stage. Now combine that with brinstars LOW roof and short walls. Now combine that with lucas ability to kill earlier than samus..... wtf hax samus dies MEGA MEGA easy.


Japes:

This is where lucas get his *** beat. Samus can DECIMATE you with her platform camping on this stage. Then combine that with the fact that if you get into the water, its near impossible to come back....ESPECIALY if samus is shooting stuff at you while u try and come back.




WINNER: Tie.






OVERALL

Though it may seem like samus may have the advantage in more areas than lucas(and she does) she still fails at the ONE thing that WINS matches. KO-ing. And because of that, those other advantages dont weigh as much and thats why i think this match-up is even or MAYBE slightly in lucas favor.

Stuff is missing.

Samus can punish our dair w/ Up B OoS.

When she is recovering, all she has to do is shoot a homing missle, and she'll be safe.

zair is affected by height, but that doesn't really matter for this MU, I just wanted to clear that up.

a ledge camping samus is hard to deal w/.

lol @ CS being her main way to kill. dtilt and gimps [dair, nair, zair,] are the two I see the most.

Pk fire does cancel zair [they clank], unless

samus can gimp lucas ONLY if he has to recover low or at slightly above stage height. Zair just ***** PKT.

There are tid bits of information you Lucas mains don't give out which make this MU easier.

SDIing the d-air will avoid the jab lock.
SDIing u-smash can save your life if you get hit by it. (It happens. Lylat is an annoying neutral against Lucas.)
Speaking of Lylat and platform stages in general, d-smash is a *****.
Speaking of d-smash, lol at using it as an edge-guard. The Samus can avoid the hitbox with usual planking and then punish the ending lag.
You can buffer shield before Lucas's 3rd jab connects.
You can buffer shield so d-tilt->f-smash NEVER connects.
At low percents, Samus can jab in between Lucas's d-tilt combos.
(The above statements involve good human reaction time obviously.)
PF already mentioned up+b OoS against approaching d-air.
Our d-smash outspaces all of your ground moves, even f-tilt. Don't be stupid.

On the other hand:

Lucas can SDI up the ledge-hop f-air and punish with u-air (I've died to this several times.)
Yes at the above, you can space a f-smash if the Samus chooses to land on stage with f-air.
Running and power shielding works as a legit approach as long as you know when to jump to avoid the grab. From jumping, you can do any aerial and it'll outpriotize dash attack or still be under z-air's hitbox close range.
(Don't air dodge into us as a way to avoid the z-air camping. A smart player (not even Samus exclusive) can punish this in absurd ways.)
F-air/u-air OoS is annoying.
N-air ***** our shield and as long as you FF it, you can power shield the incoming up+b OoS. (Of course, me knowing this will result in me mind gaming a pivot grab, or turn around jab canceling. But it's good to know regardless.)
What PF said about Lucas's recovery sums it up. Be above us when you recover, or you'll have to be lucky if you don't want to get gimped.

Otherwise, Samus can camp and if the player can predict correctly/play smart etc., Lucas can't approach. But, the issue is the times that Lucas does get in, it usually results in triple the damage output of Samus camping.

Both characters won't kill each other until 140%+ if they both DI well and know how to SDI and avoid kill moves/set-ups. I've had matches where we've both lived to 170% with PF. I've also had matches where I've gimped PF at less than 100%, only to lose the lead when he lands a surprise f-tilt near the edge of the stage.

What ends up happening is whoever has the percent lead controls the match. If Samus does, she can continue to camp instead of go for the kill move and ultimately a spaced z-air will result in a gimp against Lucas because of it's horizontal knockback. If Lucas has the percent lead, he can very well run around, power shield and wait to just punish a badly spaced z-air/missile cancel for more damage.

Punishment:
Bad Frame Data

DMG Section:
DMG doesn't know the MU very well :U

Stages:
Strike: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island
Ban: Final Destination, Frigate Orpheon
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair?

Frame Data:

[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fox
[45:55]
​

[collapse=Fox Summary]
Quick Tips:
D-air to D-tilt %: 64
D-throw to U-tilt: NO
Absorbable Projectiles:
--Laser: 5%

General MU:
-Camp, make sure you use your magnet appropiately, however don't forget that he can land-cancel his blaster to make it have less lag. So only absorb when you know he is going to blaster, otherwise you have a shield.
--Fox is a defensive character that you don't want to approach, otherwise you might take a lot of damage.
-Fox's fall speed is one of his special attributes, make sure you take full advantage of this by u-tilt stringing him. (don't try around 0 though; u-air also sets up into this)
-Learn to punish his approaches, they are pretty linear and making full use pivot grab is advised.
-At higher percents (around 90-100) do not get grabbed. Being GR to U-smash is not fun.
-Avoid him landing d-air on you, it is a lethal combo machine.
-When caught in U-tilt DI in front him, otherwise you will be stuck in the string longer than you should.
-If he d-air's your shield he can also grab, so you're going to want to see if he commits to his d-air and try to pivot grab if he does.
-Fox is a fast mother****er. If you mess up he can get in there pretty quickly and get some nasty combo's in.
-Trying to gimp is not well advised unless they don't have a double jump.
-Try learning to whiplash, it will negate the momentum of his D-smash and make you live longer.

if we dsmash @ the ledge fox can still phantasm to the edge.

rising fair loses to random **** like pk fire, which is actually the best option to rack up damage while fox is offstage.

The MU would be even, but fox just racks up damage + kills easier (lol GR usmash).

But if lucas has the lead, then fox is mad.

also for whatever reason fox gets ***** by dair > fsmash (is his stumble animation longer or something?)

Okay, taking from the discussion of the more experienced and knowledgeable players who I believe used more facts than theories, this is how I see the MU should be portrayed so far.

Both character's can damage rack equally and fast.
Fox has it easier in terms of ability to kill, but considering percentages of death this area is close to even.
Gimping wise is about even...
Both characters take away the others' far-range game.
Still a bit iffy about what approaching looks like from either character and how well punishing works, but for the heck of it lets give Lucas this advantage.

The MU is at least 50:50 imo...

Punishment:

Jab1: If he cancels, Jab OoS
Jab2: Same as Jab1
F-tilt: F-tilt
D-tilt: F-tilt
U-tilt: D-air
Dash-Attack: F-smash
F-smash: D-air
D-smash: D-smash
U-smash: D-smash
Aerial frame data is iffy.
Shine: D-air

DMG Section:
>:U

Stages:
Strike: Battlefield, Yoshi's Island
Ban: Halberd
Counterpick: Lylat Cruise, Jungle Japes

Frame Data:
[/collapse]

Written by rPSI
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peach
[40:60]
​

[collapse=Peach Summary]
Quick Tips:
-Magnetable Projectiles: NO
-Dair to Dtilt lock: 69%
-Dthrow to Utilt: NO

General MU:
-This is a hard MU because Peach can mess with Lucas
-All aerial moves are good to use to rack up damage. Though best that work are Nair, Fair, and Uair.
- Here is a break-up of her moves thanks to HelpR:

....peach.

peach is... actually quite fun to fight.

this matchup is interesting, cause peach is really a different character from the rest of the cast, so let's break her down.

Peach's strengths:
-Aerial mobility
-incredible horizontal recovery
-ability to space well using a combination of her unique second jump and her aerials
-almost all of her aerials autocancel very well, particularly bair and fair
-she has decent killing power
-she is really difficult to gimp when recovering with her umbrella, especially if you wish to attack from above, which the umbrella's hitbox will not permit
-she is difficult to land a killing move on when the peach takes advantage of the fact that peach can autocancel most of her moves easily, particularly the strongest ones
-dair, while not completely safe on shield, can be difficult to punish, particularly when she dips in and out quickly
-if the peach farms for items, she has a small chance (extremely small chance) to get one of 4 items, the beam sword, mr saturn, stitch face, or the wind bob-omb, or mr saturn.
>beam sword: basically a beam sword, has the same properties as the original
>mr. saturn: kinda useless, well not really. Most peaches completely ignore the mascot of the mother series, which is a shame because a bit of shield pressure plus this item can cause a popped shield and a lost stock.
>stitch face: Oh lord. basically a turnip with glorified knockback, damage, everything, however, while the stitch face is bad it's nowhere near as bad as the...
>wind up bob-omb: oh sweet jesus run away. This thing is quite easily peach's best draw when she plucks turnips, if you see peach get this and throw it towards you, i hope you can dodge quickly because if you're above 30% this thing will cost you a stock. the only advantage that stitch face has over this item is that this item is one use, while if you manage to hit the opponent with stitch face (their shield makes stitch face disappear) then the peach can recatch it and use it again.

peach's weaknesses:
-quite easily the worst vertical recovery in the entire game, the characters with tethers not included.
>there has been literally a grand total of like 5 situations where this game into play, really difficult to spike peach
-fairly light character
-does not have many approaches besides SH + aerial and using turnips to force an approach
-has the worst air dodge in the entire game
>can be juggled because she has the worst air dodge in the entire game
- offstage, is extremely vulnerable to pk thunder
-while she has 4 potent kill moves, those being sweet spotted usmash, sweet spotted utilt, fsmash (more on this later) and sh fair, she does not have much besides that making her rather predictable when the peach is looking for a kill.
-her fsmash is luck based, with it breaking down into:
>golf club: has the longest range out of all of peach's fsmashes, and has the middling knockback when not sweetspotted, knockback is primarily at a 45 degree angle from the stage
>frying pan: quite easily the strongest out of all 3 of the attacks, has primarily, a vertical knockback, but the shortest range
>tennis racket: is middle in range, but is easily the weakest, however, when this sweetspots it has very good knockback, which is behind peach if I recall correctly
>despite the fact that these 3 moves come out at random, do not expect to not get killed by them, as they are still potent, however, if luck is against the peach this can result in you surviving an attack that may have killed if it was any of the other weapons

Peach is overall quite an interesting character, she has properties that few other characters have, particularly in which two of her moves are luck based, she can airplank to some degree, and has a difficult to gimp recovery, alongside her unique 2nd jump she is a character that can be difficult to kill when played perfectly.

how to deal with peach's tactics coming later >>

-PKF is a great weapon in this MU. Best way to use it is FHWBPKF or SHPKF.
-Peach can Dair us really well. Dair can be used on our shield and she can do this. Dair->Grab. Use shielding smartly otherwise it could lead to her dreaded grab on us x-x
-Avoid being grabbed because Peach has a GR CG on Lucas. However there is a way out of it. ~Pink Fresh~ describes how here along with the best way to gimp a Peach.

Lucas can force an air release from her grab, by timing your mashing, since her pummel rate isn't quick enough, and his feet don't touch the ground when Peach grabs him.

The best tool for edgeguarding Peach is PK fire, just because it forces Peach to use her TERRIBLE airdodge, take the hit, toad [which makes peach fall at an extremely accelerated rate and has a fairly large amount of lag], or jump.

It's not the greatest option, but it's better than nothing.

-Gimping is hard since some of her moves cancel out one of our main gimping tools (PKT). PKF is a good tool for this MU as described above though when you see a chance to PKT it is a wise suggestion. PK Freeze can be used for gimping if you prefer to use it however PKF is the best option all together.
-Watch out for how Peach baits with her Aerials. However you can outspace her Fair with our Fsmash.
-Peach’s Aerials have higher priority and range over ours. :/
-Peach has a hard time killing and doesn’t kill till late (Except her Usmash).
-Her jab is better than ours sadly
-Peach can Grab or Jab OoS so watching for this is needed

Punishment:
Jab = Grab
Running Attack = Jab
Dtilt = OoS Ftilt or Grab
Ftilt = Ftilt
Utilt = Grab
Fsmash = *Be able to tell on reaction what to though overall Jab is the best option*
-Golf Club: F-tilt
-Frying Pan: F-tilt or Grab
-Tennis Racket: F-tilt
Usmash = F-smash
Dsmash = Jab

DMG Section:
Pending...

Stages:
Strike: FD, YI
Counterpick: Brinstar, PS1, Lylat
Ban: FD, Frigate

Frame Data:

[/collapse]

Written by J
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Ganondorf
[60:40-65:35]
*Rediscuss to finalize MU descision*​

[collapse=Ganondorf Summary]
Quick Tips:
Magnetable Projectiles: NO
Dair -> Dtilt lock: 79%
Dthrow -> Utilt: NO

General MU:
-Ganondorf is probably one of our easiest MUs.
- Nair really messes with Ganon. PKF is a good weapon in this MU as well.
- Once Ganon is around 100% he can’t really do anything about our Dtilt because he has no quick enough options to deal with our frame disadvantage.
- Best method of gimping is PKF however PKT/PKT2 is a good gimping tool as well, however with PKT with the right DI he can get a free ride back to the stage or cancel it with Uair. Ganon falls too fast for PKFr to be plausible.
- Ganon has powerful smashes that can kill a light weight like Lucas easily at kill percentages and early.
- Ganon’s fastest move on the ground is his grab which is 7 frames then in air it is his annoying Uair that is 6 frames.
- These are the thoughts of Clai, a ganon main and some general tips:

I'll try to give some points about the matchup, but until a more detailed explanation is written, I can only give some general points:

Lucas can spam PK Fire all he wants, Ganon's just going to powershield it and proceed to do whatever he wants. PK Fire is so telegraphed that it shouldn't bother Ganon in the slightest.

Lucas' Nair is annoying, as Ganon can't do anything to stop him from abusing it if his only option is to shield it. However, since Lucas has an okay-at-best mobility, Ganon can use his own aerial game to keep Lucas at bay or just stuff any aerial approach with F-tilt. Of course this is heavily prediction-dependant, as Lucas can just shield F-tilt and then hassle Ganon with his aerial game.

Ganon can SDI Lucas' Nair and Dair to cause problems. I don't know what kill set-ups Lucas has, but Ganon's going to be especially careful to SDI out of Lucas' Dair when he's near kill percentages.

I see PK thunder becoming a big problem for Ganon, but I don't know when Lucas will have the opportunity to take advantage of the move.

Lucas obviously has superior options to Ganondorf, but I don't see anything that falls in the "shuts Ganon down" category. Therefore, I'll put it at 60-40 (in Lucas' favor) for now, but I'll wait for a more detailed analysis to show.

-Here are some thoughts from rPSI on the Ganon MU:

Ganon has decent grounded range on his moves, which with the correct analysis, he can easily beat n-air approaches. However if we do find the opportunity, then n-air combos can be done to deal significant damage. When he's in front of you trying to land, they typically will avoid using f-air (duh), d-smashing their landing like that seems quite plausible.
I also have a worry about u-air, it has great range and if he can trade hit's with d-air, it would definitely be good for him. Also, watch out for the backside of his u-air offstage it's a great gimping tool.
I'm not really seeing how PKT will at all be destroying a ganon. First of all, he can usually u-air it to cancel it out. If he can't then he can just DI correctly and get a free ride back to the stage (with the cost of a little damage). Seriously, Lucas' PKT sucks.

60:40 IMO.

-Dsmash is a good move to use for when Ganon is on the edge. *as said above*
- Nair is really good for racking damage however Nair should not be used to approach. Dair is also another good method of racking damage.
- Ganon has a lot more range in the air then Lucas
- Uair can be a nuisance to us. And when used offstage it can help them gimp us o_o
- Our jab is better

Punishment:
Jab: Fsmash (close/far)
Ftilt: Fsmash
Dtilt: Grab
Utilt: -no frame data in their thread for shield advantage-
Fsmash: Fsmash
Usmash: Jab
Dsmash: -no frame data in their thread for shield advantage-
Dash attack: Fsmash
*most his frames are over/equal to -25, the exceptions being Dtilt and Usmash*

Stages:
Strike: BF, YI
Counterpick: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon
Ban: Brinstar, Norfair

DMG:
-blank area atm-

Link to frame data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190763
It’s the second post[/QUOTE].
[/collapse]

Written by J

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yoshi
[45:55]​

[collapse=Yoshi Summary]
Quick Tips:
-Magnetable Projectiles: NO
-Dair->Dtilt Lock: 77%
-Dthrow->Utilt: Yes, Possibleat low percentages. DI Foward

General MU:
-This is one of our hardest MUs in the Low Tiers
-This MU is very even however the only thing that gives Yoshi the advantage is a CG GR on Lucas. This can lead to scary walkoffs and being put into uncomfortable positions offstage. Also this could end in a Usmash/DR Fsmash to the face which isn’t very fun ;_;
-Bigman40 describes this:

Dragonic Reverse Fsmash from a grab release. We can CG you to the end of the stage then Fsmash you. This makes not getting grabbed much more important since Fsmash can probably kill around 120-130 easy.

Regardless of how easy it is, Fsmash is the most powerful, Usmash second, and dash attack & other moves with combination of DR (DR > Dsmash/Dtilt/Ftilt/Jabs) last, but that's mainly for damage.

Imo, both characters would be stalemate since their movesets are fairly evenly matched. We do have a slightly easier time landing the kill, but that's pretty much it (and I guess camping). Slight disadvantage for you guys imo.

-Camp your butt off in this MU. It will be a fight between eggs and fire most of the match.
-Avoid being grabbed at all costs
-Mix up sending his Eggs back at him and PKF dancing
-With Fsmash you can send back his eggs at the same angle he sent them. Best options are PSing and Fsmash against the eggs.
-Yoshi can’t really gimp us and we can’t really gimp him well. Best way to gimp Yoshi is predict and wait.
-An effective way to gimp Yoshi is to Footstool him
-Dair helps in this MU a lot.
-Do not be afraid to go into the air because you will get grabbed otherwise
-DO NOT APPROACH AT HIGH PERCENTAGE!!!!
-Yoshi has no really good options OoS due to his shield frame drop data is 17 o_O, however there is no shield poking because it covers his whole body.
-We get gayed on stages with walkoffs
-CAMP CAMP CAMP CAMP! That’s basically it for this MU
-Platforms are good for both characters however platforms help disturb the CG GR

Punishment:
No shield advantage data in their thread T~T

Stages:
Strike: Final Desination, Smashville
Counterpick: Brinstar, Pokemon Stadium 1, Jungle Japes *if it’s legal*
Ban: Castle Siege, Final Destination

DMG:
What is this section for again? ._.

Frame Data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=249046
[/collapse]

Written by J

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Luigi
[55:45]
This MU number is temporary and is still in discussion.​

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Bowser
[45:55]​

[collapse=Bowser Summary]

Quick Tips:
Dair->Dtilt lock:
Dthrow->Utilt: Yes, DI'd behind.
Abosorble projectiles: YES
- Fire Breath: 1%-Infinite (one breath equals about 20ish% if you get it all)

- Since I basically already wrote a summary here it is

Alright time to take a crack at this. Lucas vs. Bowser

Now i'm just gonna go with some stuff I know about Bowser.

- Bowser is a very super defensive character. He cannot really handle a character that can camp against him because it forces him to approach and he really does not have a good approach game at all. Really this is a MU of who approaches first is gonna lose. Both characters are gonna have to play their top defensive game.
- Bowser is kindof really easy to gimp once you learn how. Following him offstage is the best option like FAE said because iirc his UpB cancels the head of PKT. Also PKF is a good option on the edge and dsmashing the ledge.
- Don't get ****ing grabbed! God dang >_> He has sooo many moves he can use to abuse poor Lucas afterwards it is ridiculous.
- Bowser can be juggled realy easily due to the fact he is heavy and has a HORRID Dair. Uair stringing and PKT chasing is definetely advised.
- One grab at high percentage and Lucas is dead. Just plain and simple.
- Space your Aerial moves since that is where you will be wanting to fight him or you will get clawed or if you are in his grab range (again it's not that good) you will be eating one of those.
- UpB OoS is a pain in the butt and hurts alot.
- Utilt Juggling(?)
- Get Bowser offstage.
- If you don't get grabbed this MU is very even to Lucas favor because he can mess with Bowser in the air and offstage. Just stay away from Bowser. Seriously do not go near him MAKE HIM COME TO YOU. (you getting the point of this yet?)
- Ban YI because this stage was practically made for him.

Overall this MU is 45:55 Bowser wins to 50:50. If it wasn't for Sakurai being such a meanie bleck. Just gotta learn to play PATIENTLY.

Well that was my stab at it. I'm so sorry but that's all I can think of x_x"

-Gimping Notes from FAE

When gimping him, just go for the bair/dair spike or PK Fire gimp --> edgehog if he's forced to use UpB to recover. Hell, even thunderslide gimps are viable gimping Bowser, just make sure you know how to snap to the ledge when doing so and not just killing both of you. If you plan on PKT'ing him to gimp for whatever reason, hit him with the tail, the head will just vanish if it touches him at the top. Dthrow doesn't kill until aout 170% with good DI, so don't bother staling it early trying to get a kill at like 150%.

Also, juggle him with PKT and punish landing airdodges with Utilt/Nair/Jab.

-Oh we also have a slight trouble killing Bowser besides gimping since he is a fattie.
-Neutrals are Bowser's friend so try and stay away from those

Stage Discussion:
Strike: YI, FD
Counterpick: Frigate Orpheon, Rainbow Cruise
Ban: YI, FD

DMG Section:
Blah

Punishment Data:
Someone remind me to do this when I get my laptop back.

Link to Frame Data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206219
[/collapse]

Written by J

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Wolf
[45:55]​

[collapse=Wolf Summary]
Quick Tips:
- Dthrow->Utilt: NO
- Magnetible Projectiles: YES

-Blaster: 11-13%​

- Dair->Dtilt: 75%

General Summary:

- Wolf's only reliable killing move in this MU is Fair.
- Out of GR Wolf has Fsmash which you can just DI towards him. DSMASH IS NOT GUAREENTEED!
- Lucas can run faster than him (Lucas 17th, Wolf 24th), has better air mobility (Lucas 4th, Wolf 10th) but Wolf has the better maxium air speed (Lucas 10th, Wolf 3rd).
- Wolf's recovery is not good. However you will have a hardish time gimping him. Most likely wait on stage try and punish.
- Wolf's Bair is amazing but bad for us ^^"
- Utilt Juggling
- Lucas shouldn't be getting gimped by Wolf but he can have a lot of damage done to him.
- Wolf outprioritizes Lucas heavily in the air. Try and fight him on the ground.
- Wolf cannot camp Lucas at all. PSIM <3
- Wolf has that annoying Shine which is a bit of a nuisance.
- This MU will be on the ground the majority of the match.
- Try to stay onstage, going offstage isn't good for Lucas at all in this MU.

Punishment:
Their frame data is weird =x

Stages:
Strike: YI, BF
CP: RC, Brinstar, FO
Ban: Delfino, Halberd

DMG Section:
Blankity-blank-blankin-blank

Frame Link:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194120[/collapse]

Written by J

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Jigglypuff
[60:40]​

[collapse=Jigglypuff Summary]
Quick Tips:
Dthrow -> Dtilt?: YES! (DI'd behind)

CP'ing what I wrote in Jiggs discussion with some revision:

<hr />
This matchup is haaaaard for Jigglypuff.

The most obvious thing going for Jiggs is that if Lucas gets off stage it's very likely Jiggs can take the stock, or at least tack on 40+%. Lucas has good recovery in that he can usually make it back to the stage, but against a character like Jiggs he's going to take a lot of damage for it. If he's at low percents you want to keep hitting him to force him to use PKT until you're in a position to hit the head and gimp. Dash attack is a good option to keep in mind if he's near the ledge - I've hit him out of tether before.

On the ground we get beat pretty hard, but that's nothing new. Good jab combo, fast f-tilt, etc. I don't know why people are giving d-smash so much mention though. If you're playing this matchup like you should (not aggressively, playing carefully and baiting), you shouldn't be running into d-smash. I'm more scared of f-smash tbh.

In the air I think it's actually fairly even. Lucas has good air speed (10th in the game), so although Jiggs still beats him in top air speed, the advantage is not as significant as in other matchups. Lucas also accelerates to his top air speed faster than Jiggs does. His f-air has more range than most of our aerials except possibly our b-air. His d-air also has deceptive range, and can autocancel out of a fullhop, making it very hard for us to punish. He also has a much faster fall speed, which when combined with that d-air gives him the vertical spacing advantage too.

Against Lucas, my killing move is almost always f-air... it's really the only reliable thing we have, outside of a dash attack or DACUS read. Lucas on the other hand has no trouble killing us - even f-tilt and f-air kill Jiggs at decent percents.

This is definitely a matchup that becomes a lot easier when you don't have to approach. He seems to always have an answer to any sort of approach we have. We also have to watch out for pivot grabs - the way Jiggs has to approach leaves her fairly susceptible to them.

If we had to assign numbers I'd say 60:40 Lucas' favour.

<hr />

This was written for Jiggs players, not Lucas players, so it tends to focus more on what Lucas can do. Of course, if there's anything inaccurate in that post, correct me.

HailCrest, Fair has really good range and is sexy <3 T-Block/rPSI which has more range? Jigg's Bair or Lucas' Fair? I'd say Jiggs but i still wonder.

Dair is definetly used for more then just ground game ;O Lucas will always have a safe option for killing Jiggs, sadly for her. Also HailCrest alot of moves that have High Lag? o_O with PSHWBPKF you can use PKF defensively and literally make a wall for her. You can even run away from her since we are faster than her. She has better mobility then use though ;D Also if Lucas is using like Usmash and Dsmash or PKFr around Jiggs at high percentage derserves to get a Fsmash or DA to the face. Seriously just rack up damage on her and let about any move kill her with slight ease. (not every but like Fair, Ftilt, Utilt on small ceilings, Throws, and Fsmash) We have such an easier time killing then her ;-; Camp Jiggs to death really is the best thing you can do. Force her to approach because she will have a bit of trouble getting in.

Jiggs should not be gimping Lucas too much. However she can do alot of damge to him if we do not have our DJ. Been said not gonna say again lol. Lucas can do some damage to her offstage especially if she is below with PKT. DO NOT FOLLOW HER OFFSTAGE. You will get gimped if you do do that. She can make it hell offstage for us.

Jiggs really shouldn't be getting a Fsmash on Lucas if the Lucas knows what to do. Also iirc from what i'm looking at Jiggs can die from Dthrow at around 130%. Pivot Grabbing her approachs can also be annoying to her.

Overall we do not destroy her however we can make it really hard for her so i'd say it's in the category of 60:40 or 65:35. But this is just imho. ;3c I love Jiggs tho and on cuteness tho she wins 100:0 <3

I do agree with that Summary tho T-block ;D thanks for sharing it.

Really cannot summarize better than those two posts.

Stages
CP: Final Destination, Jungle Japes
Strike: Yoshi's Island, Battlefield
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Delfino Plaza

[/collapse]

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DISCUSS!!!

 

[#HBC | J]

Sonic
[??:??]
​

Quick Tips:

General MU:

Punishment:

DMG Section:

Stages:

Frame Data:

 

[#HBC | J]

Stage Counterpicking:

Metaknight:

Stagestrike: Any except Final Destination
Ban: Rainbow Cruise
Counterpick: Final Destination, Pirate Ship
​

Snake:

Strike: Lylat Cruise, Battle Field
Ban: Luigi's Mansion, Halberd
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise
​

Wario:

Stagestrike: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Frigate Orpheon, Rainbow Cruise
Counterpick: Norfair, PS2
​

Falco:

Stage Strike: Final Destination and Yoshi's Island
Ban: Final Destination, Jungle Japes
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise
​

Diddy Kong:

Strike: Final Destination, Smashville
Ban: Final Destination
Counterpick: Brinstar, Pokemon Stadium 1
​

King Dedede:

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Pokemon Stadium 1
Ban: Delfino Plaza, Halberd
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair, Jungle Japes
​

Marth:

Strike: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Delfino, Battlefield
Counterpick: Brinstar, Jungle Japes
​

Mr. Game and Watch:

Strike: Lylat Cruise, Battlefield
Ban: Rainbow Cruise
Counterpick: Brinstar, Final Destination
​

Pikachu:

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruse
Ban: Halberd
Counterpick: Brinstar, Jungle Japes
​

Olimar:​

Strike: Final Destination, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Luigi's Mansion If it is banned then: Halberd or Delphino Plaza
Counterpick: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon​

Ice Climbers

Strike: FINAL DESTINATION, Lylat Cruise or Yoshi's Island
Ban: Final Destination, Final Destination or Final Destination. (Did I mention Final Destianation?)
CP: Rainbow Cruise, Battle Field, Norfair, Brinstar
​

ROB:

Strike: Finalt Destination, Lylat Cruse
Ban: Frigate Orpheon, Delphino Plaza
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair
​

Kirby:

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1
Ban: Rainbow Cruise
Counterpick: Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, possibly Battlefield
​

Lucario:

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Yoshi's Island
Counterpick: Halberd, PS1, or anystage with a low ceiling that you are comfortable with
​

Pit:

Strike: Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island
Ban: Lylat Cruise
Counterpick: Brinstar, Pokemon Stadium 1
​

Zero Suit Samus

Strike: Lylat Cruise, Yoshi' Island or Battlefield
Ban: Lylat Cruise
Counterpick: Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon or possibly Jungle Japes
​

Toon Link

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Final Destination
Ban: Campy Stages (i.e. FD, Japes, Yoshi's)
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair, Battlefield
​

Shiek

Strike: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island
Ban: Norfair
Counterpick: Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon
​

Zelda

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Final Destination
Ban: No definite ban
Counterpick: Brinstar, Frigate Oprheon
​

Donkey Kong

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Jungle Japes, Yoshi's Island, Pictochat
Counterpick: PS1, Norfair
​

Samus

Strike: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island
Ban: Final Destination, Frigate Orpheon
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair
​

Fox

Strike: Battlefield, Yoshi's Island
Ban: Halberd
Counterpick: Lylat Cruise, Jungle Japes
​

Peach

Strike: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island
Ban: Final Destination, Frigate Orpheon
Counterpick: Brinstar, Lylat, Pokemon Stadium 1
​

Ganondorf

Strike: Battlefield, Yoshi's Island
Ban: Brinstar, Norfair
Counterpick: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon
​

Yoshi

Strike: Final Destination, Smashville
Counterpick: Brinstar, Pokemon Stadium 1
Ban: Castle Siege, Final Destination
​

Bowser

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Final Destination
Counterpick: Frigate Orpheon, Rainbow Cruise
Ban: Yoshi's Island, Final Destination
​

Wolf

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Battlefield
Counterpick: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpehon, Brinstar
Ban: Delfino Island, Halberd
​

Jigglypuff

Strike: Yoshi's Island, Battlefield
Counterpick: Final Destination, Jungle Japes
Ban: Delfino Island, Rainbow Cruise
​

 

[rPSIvysaur]

[collapse=WTF]Reversed???[/collapse]

At the time, my collapse function wasn't working, which was why the MU was delayed. >:U

 

[Tokaio]

Okay, this is an obvious disadvantage for us. You have to keep away from him. I'm guessing PKF spam all the way because of his lack of projectiles. Once he's off the stage, you should PKT1 and try to edgehog him since his recovery isn't the best. You can Dair -> Dtilt lock if you initiate the Dair at 68%. He'll end up at 88% by the time the Dair's over.

EDIT: 30:70 is my guess

 

[Levitas]

rocketpsience requested a delete, so I'm closing this till I'm done discussing what he needs

there'll be something like this soon, if not this thread.

If anyone ever needs a thread closed, they should indicate why and provide a link to the thread in question so this doesn't happen lol

 

[orange/xd]

Maybe 35: 75. My strategy for this matchup is to constantly space PKFs, not letting him approach.

 

[Chuee]

30-70
Marth sux

 

[prOAPC]

40-60
marth is not that bad for us, imo
peach is harder
camp all day long
avoid nairing his shield
use jabs and dtilt to avoid grabs
gimp him

 

[rPSIvysaur]

safe ways of gimping anyone?

I'd say PKT is the safest?

 

[lil cj]

Someone contact the Marth mains please

safe ways of gimping anyone?

I'd say PKT is the safest?

Edit:
Yup PKT1 is the only safe way to edge guard Marth.
One thing it can do is can screw up his Dolphin Slash recovery if you hit him as soon as he does it,
he'll go in crazy directions leaving himself in a helpless state, its a glitch lol.
I wouldnt try to bair spike him, its not safe.
Dair might be safe though

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I posted a request in the Marth boards... I hope that they'll respond

Maybe 35: 75. My strategy for this matchup is to constantly space PKFs, not letting him approach.

that equals 110
XD

 

[Rachmaninav89]

I'm not a fan of the match up, it gets very annoying with the whole infinite grab thing. I have not played a Marth though that fully knows what hes doing i have to say though. I played one at a comp where he counterpicked marth because I was lucas, and I still managed to pull it off. pk fire works great against marth and I didnt have terrible trouble. One thing to practice is just how to not get grabbed, because your nair and jabs can do great to keep him at bay from grabbing. I would put it at 40-60/ - 35/65 since of his wonderful grab release. And yea don't go for a back air spike with him XD. brinstar is a good counterpick btw, hard for grabs, etc.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

The problem with Marth though, is that most people focus in on the Grab Release... I think we should discuss how to fight him w/o getting grabbed but we must assume he still has better moves. A good Marth will get in the annoying space where you can't PKF or use your moves. From what I can tell D-tilt will wreck Lucas. If you try to get him out of that space he'll be able to grab you or you'll just have to run... and run... and run
I'll I'm able to do is a land a few PKF on Marths...

Personally I character CP him with Snake... it's just too difficult even w/o the grab release

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Hey there, well ima just give some input, I main Marth.

Well first of all, the whole infinite chain grab release thing definitely gives Marth an advantage. However, we still do not know the exact details of the infinite CG. Lucas can be ground released further away from being immediately grabbed, making Marth have to walk a bit closer to regrab, thus making it not a ICG. But, some people say there is EIDI that is causing Lucas to be released further, while others say it is SDI. Unless if someone found out recently, the ICG is unreliable. So it's actually hard to place a matchup ratio for Lucas, so I'll just give a rough ratio, considering that the ICG only works half the time...

Stages:

Like Rachmaninav said, Brinstar is a good stage against Marth. Harder to grab Lucas, and with the uncertainty of how the ICG works, the bumpiness of the stage makes it even harder to continue the CG/ICG.
If you can refresh moves by hitting the destructable parts of the stage, I believe this would also help Lucas. Marth's DB already is a very good refresher for his moves, since each hit counts as a separate attack. (However, it doesn't refresh hits within itself). So the destructable parts will allow a Lucas to refresh their moves when needed.
The acid would allow a gimped Lucas to bounce back up to recover.

I think Jungle Japes or Battlefield would be good stages for Marth, or at least even. If i'm not mistaken, Jungle Japes' water makes it harder for a Lucas to recover than a Marth. Then again, I don't know how well your tether grab will help you on that. The high ceiling will make shut down the use of Lucas's powerful Upsmash. Battlefield's narrow design would allow a Marth to approach a Lucas easier.

Anyway, I think the ratio should be 35:65 or near, especially since Marth can follow up a grab ground release with a dsmash to kill at around 130% and above ( with good DI/momentum canceling ). But again, this is considering that the CG/ICG fails half the time.

that equals 110
XD

Lol wow I didn't even realize that XD.

Reversed???

I c wut yoo did thar.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lucas actually does quite well on Japes, it's hard to land up-smashes in the first place and he gets most of his kills from horizontal movement... but this has been discussed in Ono's awesome thread! Right now I would like if we could not mention the IGR in the disucssion because we all know it's there, I'd like to focus more on how Marth fights w/o it

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

40-60
marth is not that bad for us, imo
peach is harder
camp all day long
avoid nairing his shield
use jabs and dtilt to avoid grabs
gimp him

O.O

WHAT!?!

APC. WTH WHHHHAAAATTTTTT. WTH. NO.

marth is way harder than peach. You can't camp marth with Lucas. He'll just smack anything away with his dumb*** sword. Fair/Ftilt > PK fire. We can't do anything to stop fair, besides Uair from under Marth. We can't get grabbed once. This matchup is stupid. Your Marths must not play gay enough.

Marth is a Large disadvantage. **** giving ratios.

 

[Levitas]

marth hurts lucas a lot. with his sword.

lucas can sometimes do a decent job of keeping people from approaching well, but marth doesn't need to enter lucas's range to hit him.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

If we time our PKF right can we still get splash damage?

When he's off the edge and recoverying low / using up-b you can't hit him w/ downsmash... but if he tries to recovery with just using his second jump, down smash will have enough range

When Marth gets up from the edge what are his options and what can we do?

 

[Chuee]

The only thing we have on marth is gimping

 

[GreyClover]

I think Jungle Japes or Battlefield would be good stages for Marth, or at least even. If i'm not mistaken, Jungle Japes' water makes it harder for a Lucas to recover than a Marth. Then again, I don't know how well your tether grab will help you on that. The high ceiling will make shut down the use of Lucas's powerful Upsmash. Battlefield's narrow design would allow a Marth to approach a Lucas easier.

No, no you got right. Battlefield is a Marth stage. The platforms allow Usmash tips to be come much more common plus aerial mindgames son.

Ehh you can try to gimp pressure Marth offstage for a couple of damage. If he's at or above stage height you can Fair him, just don't get caught under the stage otherwise you're looking to eat an UpB stage spike, wouldn't want that now shall we?

The match is really werid, you're not going to beat Marth's ground game with his broken range and you're not going to beat Marth's air game with his Fair combos. Unless you play recklessy throwing out bad spaced Fsmashes, the match isn't 70:30 material.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

When Marth gets up from the edge what are his options and what can we do?

1. Get up. Shield grab or something else. A Dolphin Slash could work too.
2. Attack get-up.
3. Roll.
4. Let go of the ledge and immediately fair or other aerial to hit you through the stage.
5. Let go of the ledge, jump and fair/nair you, grab back onto the edge without Up B (Marth can be grabbed though while he's doing this).
6. Jump on.
7. Let go of the stage then jump on, with air dodge/aerial/counter/DS/anything else.
8. Let go, DB1 backwards, then bair through stage (jump may be needed), grab back on with Up 9. Let go of stage, DI forwards under the stage, jump and uair, DI backwards to grab back on with or without Up B.
10. Plank.
11. Let go of edge then jump and Shield Breaker. Not sure if you can regrab without Up B.

When he's off the edge and recoverying low / using up-b you can't hit him w/ downsmash... but if he tries to recovery with just using his second jump, down smash will have enough range

Then again, if Marth knew that, he'd probably always recover with Up B. However if the Marth didn't think of using Up B, and instead used his second jump, he could use DB1 before he gets near the ledge to stall his jump if he was observant, and then Up B back on. Or he could also just use Counter XD.

No, no you got right. Battlefield is a Marth stage. The platforms allow Usmash tips to be come much more common plus aerial mindgames son.

K .

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ok, so the safest option for Lucas to do when Marth is at the edge is to PKT Ledgewhiping

Question to Ragnarok:
How does Marth penetrate the spacing distance so well, is there anyway to stop him from gettting in your face w/o getting grabbed?

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Ok, so the safest option for Lucas to do when Marth is at the edge is to PKT Ledgewhiping

Question to Ragnarok:
How does Marth penetrate the spacing distance so well, is there anyway to stop him from gettting in your face w/o getting grabbed?

No.

10Nos

 

[themrskills]

When it comes down to it, Lucas is just ****** in this matchup. Here's what happens to each attack:

Nair: you're shield grabbed.
Dair: Tipped fsmash or usmash.
PKF: ftilt to cancel
uair: dair beats it (and when are you going to be under him?
bair: might could possibly get one of these to continue into a dair while onstage, but not likely
usmash: no one is stupid enough to fall for this one
fsmash: we're talking about Marth's long range sword. Not gonna win.
dsmash: maybe. and that's a maybe maybe.
Absorb: utterly useless. might could get off the stun effect if you slide into it.
PKT1: I find to be one of the better options, which is sad.
PKT2: Thundersliding is reasonably valid if you are on brinstar of similar stage

Conclusion? I hate this matchup.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Question to Ragnarok:
How does Marth penetrate the spacing distance so well, is there anyway to stop him from gettting in your face w/o getting grabbed?

Uh well I don't play Lucas, but I guess there is no real way to stop it. And if you stop him from grabbing simply by getting away or such, he can just hit you the "normal" way. Marth runs fast, so he would reach Lucas fast even if he uses a PKF, and Marth easily outspaces Lucas. You guys have some nifty tricks, I don't know much about them though so I may be wrong. And also our attacks easily cancel out your projectiles.

No.

10Nos

Lol.

 

[Sade]

I say 30-70 or 35-65 in Marth's favor. (unless it's battlefield because then it's 1-99 hurrrrrrrr)

PK fire mindgames are definitely going to be a huge factor to racking up damage on Marth. But Marth outprioritizes Lucas in a lot of things. Pretty much all his aerials (mostly fair) has longer range than Lucas. Also grab release > grab release, grab release > fsmash, grab release > asdffhgdfjh gives Lucas a huuuuge liek Xbox disadvantage.

Marth's few weaknesses involve how easy it is to gimp him. Additionally, he has a disadvantage when Lucas (or anybody else) is below him. Why a good Marth would expose his underside is anyone's question though

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

If we couldn't gimp Marth, it would be 100-0 lol.

 

[Ono]

I don't know when you wanna start counterpicks Rocket, so I'm just gonna go ahead and start.
So what're your guys' thoughts on the counterpicks and stuffs?

Stage Strike - Battlefield, and ?
Counterpick - Brinstar, Norfair?, Jungle Japes?
Bans - Delfino, Battlefield

Is Castle Siege a banworthy stage?

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

CP either Brinstar/Japes.

Not sure about bans. BF would be ideal to avoid grabs, but marth is too good on that stage; Stages like FD, will get you grab ***** =/

eh...

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Norfair is like a play ground for Marth... not unless we can stop all horizontal moment like Link can, this stage would be bad

Japes is depending on experience on the stage, if you are comfortable go ahead and CP

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Ban Battlefield for sure . May be Lylat, may be Delfino.

Lucas would probably be able to gimp lower level Marth's even easier on Lylat, FD, and Poke Stadium 1, because the lips of the stages are hard to recover on, and Lucas' PKT1 could easily screw the Marth up XD.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'm now requesting links to videos against Marths

 

[Levitas]

don't bother looking for vids. to find any vid worth watching, look for galeon, idk if PF has any vids, and tyr has a couple.

There isn't sufficient representation to look for any amount of matchup specific vids w/ lucas, it's just how it is.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

"There isn't sufficient representation to look for any amount of matchup specific vids w/ lucas, it's just how it is."

Agreed. I'm like the only Marth here anyways XD. Will post a link here though if i see any good ones.

 

[ZMan]

marth can go eat a ****ing ****. i ****ing hate marth more than anything ever. that's really saying something cause i hate a lot of things.

this matchup is annoying. play really ****ing defensive, capitilize on every mistake he makes (every percent counts), milk dthrow > utilt for all its worth, and **** the hell out of your controller if you get grabbed.

serious disadvantage matchup, and there's no doubt about that. as for a ratio you won't get one from me.

im going to bed angry at marth and marth users and everything they stand for.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Finnally someone feels as strongly about Marth as I do. I ****ing yelled at my friend when he fricken CP'ed Marth against me. I hate him so much I consider having to go against Marth in friendlies a chore.

Now time to stop unloading and go back to any more Stage CPing we can do although it looks pretty well over

 

[CRASHiC]

Wait till he swings his sword, then hit him.
Works every time.

 

[Noraa]

We need to go over falco next.....

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Fine we can go with Faclo next in our match-up discussion...
I will finish updating stage bans and CPs