The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[Ono]

Stages?

Stage Strike: FD is first of course...I'm guessing the Falco will strike Lylat. So, FD and Yoshi's??
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, Luigi's Mansion?
Bans: Final Destination, Jungle Japes

Thoughts on stages?

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

against falco CP delfino, his side-b recovery gets screwed over and they just fall through the stage. The walk offs shouldnt pose a problem as long as you are above 40% and if you are below 40% on the walk off parts
....
....
don't get grabbed =D

 

[lil cj]

Falco is really easy imo

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

I can't wait until you guys play **** falcos.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Falco is really easy for a high tier imo

Quote fixed

 

[themrskills]

lmao^^^^^^^

 

[prOAPC]

what i hate about falcon, is that all his aerials, except fair, autocancel after SH, so i always think i can punish that, but i can't

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ok, so Ono's Stage CP's are pretty much what you want to use, agreed?

So now that is done with back to Falco's approachs:
What are they?
How to punish?

Go

 

[prOAPC]

i'm calling the Falco mains
look Tyr's guide, he talked about Falco

 

[clowsui]

actually tyr said everything i would want to say lol

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I guess I'll just quote from tyr's old guide then?

Edit: I'm going to wrap Falco up pretty soon, if anyone wants to add something, speak soon.

 

[Tyr_03]

Falco is really annoying.

We don't have the advantage. I can see an argument for even. I'm not positive what I think of it anymore. I ban FD against him so he takes me to Japes where I can camp the side platforms with the magnet. You can time Falco's out there easily or frustrate them enough that they'll do stupid things.

I used to think it was better to play really defensively in this matchup but on most stages I think it's better to be aggressive now.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So let's move on to Metaknight

 

[Tokaio]

=/ Can we do GW next after MK?

To be honest, I actually don't mind this match-up. I just PKF spam all day. He is lightweight so he's easy to kill. The only thing is he can gimp you so easily. So try to PKT2 from a distance and if doesn't make it time to gimp you, go for the spike. Tornado...Has anyone tried Zap Jumping out of it? It worked for me a couple of times at a tournament.

Stages... You probably wanna end up at Final Destination...I think you should strike Smashville first. He Dair camps extremely well and can use the moving platform to renew his jumps. No idea what to do on the 2nd stage. My guess would be Lylat because of the bigger blast zones, making it harder to kill MK.

Counterpicks: Final Destination, Pictochat, Pirate Ship?
Bans: Rainbow Cruise.

 

[Palpi]

Btw I saw your ratio on the Falco match up. "If they don't know the match up it is is x:y" MU's are made when each character is at the top of their metagame doing everything in their characters power to defeat their enemy. That is like saying, cept in a smaller degree, "Ganondorf VS MK is 10:90 except when the MK is an infant than it is closer to even." Match ups are made with both players as good as theory allows them to be.

 

[themrskills]

^^^^^^^haha lol lmao wtf?

You don't pkf spam a metaknight. You don't get that option. No. The worst part? That's our best option. Sorry. Seriously though. It does break the Whornado, if you hit just right near the top where MK is.

As for close range, there is none. No tilts, no grabs, no jabs. No aerials. Maybe Nair. Maybe. On a suck MK.

Smashes? Dsmash. That's it. Usmash is way to slow. You're just asking for 25+ damage. Fsmash sees rare use at best.

Pkt can also break the whornado. Gimping? No. If MK is offstage, then you're better off setting up what you are gonna do when he gets close. If you fire off a pkt, he'll maneuver all the way around to the other side of the stage and hit you before you can even cancel the move.

As for other gimping techniques. Bair? No. Dair? Maybe. There's a good chance that if you try to gimp him, he'll gimp you. Oh and by the way he's probably going to gimp you anyways.

My advice? Uber patience. Spacing, 100%. Don't get caught in the 'Nado or it's possibly a stock. Remember, he's light, so try to get the damage high before running a kill move. Dash attack can be used with surprising effectiveness because of its large, funny shaped hitbox. And no one in their right mind rushes a MK.

 

[Sade]

I think dair camping poses more of a threat to Lucas than tornado spam, but that's just imo.

Fighting M2K and Judge made me see this.

 

[GreyClover]

Learn the matchup and get experience. Don't do anything fancy or risky like spiking and recover smart so you don't get gimped too early.

Watch out for an approaching Meta Knight. If he's walking he'll be able to release an Fsmash of Ftilt out, if he's in the air run away and quick. Most of MK's aerials outpriorities a lot of our attacks, if you're doing something this dumb you will get combo'd to hellz with his ****ing aerials.

Mach Tornado is dangerous, best places to be is above, where the hitbox is smaller and Dair can easily attack MK out of it. If anything, on the ground learn to time your Fsmash with the tornado since it's able beat it.

 

[ZMan]

some old matches with me vs sinz's mk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuISaMAK4QI&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7NrjJ7l0xU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8v5N7aWz1g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd4El4c4wAI&feature=related

ill get some more lucas v mk matches this weekend probably.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

^^^^^^^haha lol lmao wtf?

You don't pkf spam a metaknight. You don't get that option. No. The worst part? That's our best option. Sorry. Seriously though. It does break the Whornado, if you hit just right near the top where MK is.

As for close range, there is none. No tilts, no grabs, no jabs. No aerials. Maybe Nair. Maybe. On a suck MK.

Smashes? Dsmash. That's it. Usmash is way to slow. You're just asking for 25+ damage. Fsmash sees rare use at best.

Pkt can also break the whornado. Gimping? No. If MK is offstage, then you're better off setting up what you are gonna do when he gets close. If you fire off a pkt, he'll maneuver all the way around to the other side of the stage and hit you before you can even cancel the move.

As for other gimping techniques. Bair? No. Dair? Maybe. There's a good chance that if you try to gimp him, he'll gimp you. Oh and by the way he's probably going to gimp you anyways.

My advice? Uber patience. Spacing, 100%. Don't get caught in the 'Nado or it's possibly a stock. Remember, he's light, so try to get the damage high before running a kill move. Dash attack can be used with surprising effectiveness because of its large, funny shaped hitbox. And no one in their right mind rushes a MK.

Don't listen to this. It's wrong on so many levels.

Tornado = Stock. srsly?

 

[lil cj]

Ive played Overswarm's MK a while back when I was just starting out playing brawl and lost pretty badly, but fighting them more and more(especially on wifi),im getting better at the MU.

This can be a devastating MU for Lucas if you dont know it
What I do is not to approach often and let the MK player approach cause you know they are, due to MK's agressive playstyle.Thats when you read them, most likely they will fair, dair,tornado, or dash attack.
If they apprach from the air, AD then dair combo, i wouldnt use nair. If they approach with tornado pk fire them. And if they dash attack do a retreating fair or my favorite dsmash. Im starting to play as an evasive Lucas not an agresssive one, being too agressive will get you killed.

Its close to impossible to gimp an MK, but still try to dair them and pkt1 while MK is off stage, you'll get some extra damage on them.

While recovering, mix up your recoveries. I mostly try to recovery high and magnet pull then AD to avoid a shuttle loop. Try your best not to get gimped, by zap jumping and tethering when possible.

35-65 or 40-60 MK's favor

 

[Noraa]

mk's dair is scarier than his torando in this mu.
grab release is a ***** to.
ftilt will **** you.

the only thing you can do is be the better player...simple.

 

[Chuee]

mk's dair is scarier than his torando in this mu.
grab release is a ***** to.
ftilt will **** you.

the only thing you can do is be the better player...simple.

If you consider a free dtilt/ ftilt that bad.
A good mk doesn't use ftilt that often.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

A good mk doesn't use ftilt that often.

haha............buncha bull, if the mk is "good" he will be able to see that ftilt pretty much shuts down anything lucas can use, so they will use it. the reason you don’t see mks using it in other matchups is because other characters can get past it, but it says absolutely nothing about mk's matchup with lucas.

In my experience I would rather fight snake/marth/ddd then to play mk, doesn't help that the mk players here know my style which makes the matchup that much worse for me.

Everybody already knows that pk fire beats out tornado, drill rush, and even his shuttle loop (I use it against incoming gliding mks to set up for tilts/smashes and it is the safest thing to do against a gliding mk), but spamming pk fire stupidly will get you punished. If the mk is approaching you from the air, walk away because lucas has a blind spot near the angle where his forehead is at that an mk will **** with down air without being able to get punished easily. If he is approaching you along the ground, pay close attention to whether he is running or walking; really only a scrub mk will approach while running. While walking he can out-range you with ftilt,dtilt,dsmash(actually almost all his approaches out-range lucas). With this in mind, you can either risk shielding (high chance of getting grabbed) or get away (walking or jumping) and wait for him to use an attack, and attempt to punish his (nonexistent) lag. Be very careful about his dtilt, it has insane range, and a high trip rate that pretty much always leads into a grab.

In the air you have to be in control or gtfo of the air. Lucas’ fair beats out mk’s (ONLY with proper spacing) lucas’ dair will also beat out shuttle loop and up tilt at certain angles, but be very careful, a missed dair will lead to you getting grabbed. If you are in the air, your safest bet is to be above him and slightly to the side (even then it’s not entirely safe do to shuttle loop’s range and invisibility when used while grounded).

For this matchup, it’s like Noraa said, you have to be the better player and you HAVE to play defensive, that's all there is to it. You won't win if you try playing aggressive.
mk is also the only real reason I've been thinking about picking up a secondary. I could be doing something very wrong, and I’m not saying that I know everything about the matchup, but this is the matchup I have the hardest time with.

 

[ZMan]

lucas v mk is a matchup where ou have to be a step ahead of your opponet at all times and being able to call mk out on all mistakes he makes. its not unwinnable by any means, just annoying.

i wish nm never banned mk. i like the matchup, i enjoy finding ways around mks ****. ill post more stuff up this weekend.

 

[prOAPC]

you can shield grab his dsmash, and that's a plus

 

[Tokaio]

Tornado...Has anyone tried Zap Jumping out of it? It worked for me a couple of times at a tournament.

My question still stands.

 

[ZMan]

that's a good question, probably not.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

My question still stands.

it's possible.

Better question: what would be the point of that? It doesn't put us in an advantageous situation; it actually puts us in a worse position than just being hit by the tornado. I find it extremely impractical, especially when Lucas can SDI out of it, and punish.

 

[Noraa]

i agree with pink

 

[orange/xd]

Zap jump/wavezap to avoid getting gimped ALWAYS

Probably 65:35 in Meta's favor.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

The matchup seriously is not THAT Bad.

It's 60:40 at WORST. There's no way I'd agree with that now. Back when I was a scrub, and I would complain about how broken he is, I used to think it was that bad, but it's not. We are one of the few characters that can actually gimp MK.

He uses his glide
-PK freeze travels the fastest horizontally, so I would advise that. He'll have to drop gilde or get hit. Both put him in baf positions.
- getting hit: He'll be sussceptible to a zapjump pk fire edgeguard KO.
Not getting hit: He won't have his glide and will be quite far away from the stage. He also should have wasted 1-3 jumps at this point.

-Pk Thunder: That **** kills MK. OK, if they glide, but try to go really low to avoid pk freeze, then pk thunder and make a straight line going down. Assuming, MK is level or below the stage just go down then, bring the PKT back up. They'll either:
- Keep going down and die (not likely)
- Go up into the PKT.

That's just for glide. That is ths HARDEST part of edgeguarding him everything else he does gets ***** by PKT.

BUT

to be more specific, I'll elaborate.

Once his first glide is gone, it becomes free damage. he Tries to drill rush? PK freeze/PKT, that's done. Just hit Drill rush with the tail of PKT, then loop it to knock him away again. PK freeze is self explanatory; just hit him lol. He tries to tornado? Nahhh not in mah house. Now this one is kinda tricky. It depends on how far away MK is. The most safe/smart thing to do is Pk fire. It ALWAYS works, unless your aim just sucks or something. if they're mad far away you can start charging a smash attack, preferably Fsmash, in case they decide to mash B and go above you. If you use Usmash/Dsmash, they can probably return safely. If they're far away, you can also PK freeze (not worth it), or PKT (risky). I'd just stick to PK fire. If they decide to teleport, just guess where they'll land and punish them. Uhh, what else. OH shuttle loop. PK fire, PKT, Dair from above, Bair from above all work. Really like, It's NOT hard to edgeguard MK's. I've made some people get frustrated (heard them groan, suck their teeth lol) because they couldn't recover.

on stage is not that bad. anything he does is punishable, except for dtilt, unless you Powershield. Try to gain control of the tempo of the match. Learn to use PK freeze against dair camping.

OH! don't get grabbed. That's the only thing that makes the matchup bad. Dashing regrab puts us off stage. You shoupdn't get gimped, though, just get some damage tacked onto you.


tl;dr: Seriously, just learn the matchup. It isn't that hard.

I typed this on wiinet. Be happy I decided to contribute

 

[Tyr_03]

Metaknight is ****ing annoying. Nair the tornado when you're above it, PK Fire, Dsmash or Usmash it. Tilt your shield up and Ftilt him if he lands close to you. Otherwise you can PK Fire him in his lag if he lands away sometimes. When caught in the tornado mash up and Nair when you're out of it to hit him and fastfall for the combo. Meta's shield is weak so you can wear it down for shieldpokes with Nair and Dair. Ftilt outranges a lot of his things kind of including his glide attack with which it will usually clank so it's sometimes worth it to try to just do things faster than him for the hit. Dair>Dtilt combos are relatively easy to get on MK because of his weight and get early kills. PK Thunder beats all of his recovery options including the tornado. Tailwhipping might be necesary to beat glide attacks or the tornado. I like to send PK Thunder up from below him so he can't stop it with his glide attack. After doing some damage with that if he tries to recover low you can try to edgehog and Dair his Up B or Side B to get extra damage and sometimes spike kills. Metaknight can grab release Lucas for a dash regrab, Dtilt, Ftilt or Dsmash. You have to watch out for Dair gimps so get back on stage as quickly as possible. Of Lucas's difficult matchups, this one really isn't all that bad. You can outplay Metaknights and win.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So lets start the stage discussion now!

 

[Ono]

Stage Strike: He doesn't really have any really good neutrals...err...sorry he doesn't have any bad neutrals. The worst he has is probably FD. So, my guess would be to strike Yoshi's + Lylat.

Counterpick: FD, Pirate Ship
Ban: Rainbow Cruise PERIOD

 

[Rachmaninav89]

You could counterpick brinstar too haha. Since it makes dash grabbing harder and just overall is good for lucas.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Isn't Brinstar really good for Metaknight too?

 

[Rachmaninav89]

^^^^^
Yea i take that back i just re checked the brinstar notes in the stage discussion thread. XD

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Stage Strike: None, go with what your comfortable with don't strike FD though
Counterpick: FD, Pirate Ship
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar

How does this sound?

 

[Ono]

I don't think it's enough to ban Brinstar though.