The Lucas Boards' QnA Thread

[Jamwa]

Also when I press X, Up and C-right in that order very quickly (Tap Jump on, B-stick) after one another Lucas does a weird thing where he doesn't seem to leave the ground but he does the landing lag animation of SHPKF. WTF is this.

And how do you do that tech where you tether the ledge, cancel it and do a double jump?

BTW your profile pic has inspired me.

1. You're DJ cancelling with the PKF

2. you tether, press down quickly, then jump quickly. You need a double jump for this, and it's only flashy. Not as practical as ZSS's because hers is much longer and her jump is faster.

 

[PKBeam]

Ah I see...
I feel like the tether cancel thing can bait Dsmashes from us and we can DJ Fair or Dair.

 

[Jamwa]

Ah I see...
I feel like the tether cancel thing can bait Dsmashes from us and we can DJ Fair or Dair.

Lucas' head is janky so it might be a bit risky

 

[Phan7om]

How do you do the DJ Z-air cancel? Ive always tried doing it like it says, immediately trying to DJ and trying to cancel it with zair. Is the timing just really strict? Ive never pulled it off.

 

[PKBeam]

you mean when he does a weird animation on the ground, but doesn't leave it? IDK about that.
but if you mean like a DJC (like in 64/Melee) Zair then I don't think that's possible, and if it is it's not very useful.

 

[Jamwa]

How do you do the DJ Z-air cancel? Ive always tried doing it like it says, immediately trying to DJ and trying to cancel it with zair. Is the timing just really strict? Ive never pulled it off.

jump
buffer a doublejump with either L or R (set to jump) or tap jump
buffer an airdodge (press L or R if they are set to shield)
buffer zair (press A whilst holding down L or R from airdodging)
there ya dun it

learn it this way because doublejumping after a footstool is easiest with L, R, or tap jump

 

[Phan7om]

you mean when he does a weird animation on the ground, but doesn't leave it? IDK about that.
but if you mean like a DJC (like in 64/Melee) Zair then I don't think that's possible, and if it is it's not very useful.

Yeah, the weird animation. It actually has its uses, just like Peach and Yoshi's.

jump
buffer a doublejump with either L or R (set to jump) or tap jump
buffer an airdodge (press L or R if they are set to shield)
buffer zair (press A whilst holding down L or R from airdodging)
there ya dun it

learn it this way because doublejumping after a footstool is easiest with L, R, or tap jump

Thats basically how Ive been doing it. I use tap jump and everything... guess that just means more practice. Weird. its the only tech, in both Melee and Brawl, that I could never do once.

 

[Jackson]

Hey guys. I'm new to the Lucas Boards. I'm a Marth player but I used to play Lucas and I might pick him up again. My question is, do you guys think wavebouncing/b-sticking is completely needed? I hear it has a great effect with Lucas, but I would prefer to keep my c-stick on Smashes like Ive always been used to.

 

[Phan7om]

Hey guys. I'm new to the Lucas Boards. I'm a Marth player but I used to play Lucas and I might pick him up again. My question is, do you guys think wavebouncing/b-sticking is completely needed? I hear it has a great effect with Lucas, but I would prefer to keep my c-stick on Smashes like Ive always been used to.

Wavebouncing and B-sticking are 2 different things. No its not needed, but it is possible to wavebounce normally. I can do it pretty consistently. B-sticking just makes wavebouncing easier thats all.

 

[Jamwa]

Hey guys. I'm new to the Lucas Boards. I'm a Marth player but I used to play Lucas and I might pick him up again. My question is, do you guys think wavebouncing/b-sticking is completely needed? I hear it has a great effect with Lucas, but I would prefer to keep my c-stick on Smashes like Ive always been used to.

you can wavebounce using the c-stick and pressing the b button at the same time instead of changing your setup to c for specials
learn this way, as it is important you use c-stick set to smashes. it allows you to use the c stick for SDI and aerials whilst maintaining aerial momentum

also, you don't need to learn to wavebounce. the 2 best Lucas' don't use it, as all it really helps you do is PK fire from a safe distance. if you're vsing someone adept at the Lucas matchup, they'll just run and powershield the PK fire and punish or put you in a bad position.

 

[Jackson]

you can wavebounce using the c-stick and pressing the b button at the same time instead of changing your setup to c for specials
learn this way, as it is important you use c-stick set to smashes. it allows you to use the c stick for SDI and aerials whilst maintaining aerial momentum

also, you don't need to learn to wavebounce. the 2 best Lucas' don't use it, as all it really helps you do is PK fire from a safe distance. if you're vsing someone adept at the Lucas matchup, they'll just run and powershield the PK fire and punish or put you in a bad position.

.Ah. Good to know, thanks.

 

[Mr.Pikachu]

Does anyone know how to do the zap jump except replace the PK fire with a tether? Also I've been zap jumping a long time, but I don't have any momentum to magnet pull. I saw hyutter using zap jump then magnet pull, but Idk how to recreate that. I hope it's not because I use C-bouncing...also how do you do the reverse magnet when you're coming up off the ledge? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDwt2yVQzn0

 

[PKBeam]

Does anyone know how to do the zap jump except replace the PK fire with a tether?
Watch FAE's video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCA9vKLRDA4
(Jump, do any action in the air, buffer a jump out of that, immediately airdodge (like f.1) and interrupt the airdodge with Zair ASAP)
Also I've been zap jumping a long time, but I don't have any momentum to magnet pull. I saw hyutter using zap jump then magnet pull, but Idk how to recreate that. I hope it's not because I use C-bouncing...

Whatever you can do with B-sticking, you can do with tilting the c-stick and pressing your specials button at the same time. Wavezap? Hold your control stick left/right, then double jump and tilt your c-stick right/left (respectively) while pressing specials at the exact same time. For me it's really hard to pull off, but I'm sure at least someone out there can do this.

also how do you do the reverse magnet when you're coming up off the ledge? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDwt2yVQzn0
Do a normal ledgehop magnet (jump from ledge & immediately cancel the jump momentum with Magnet) except tilt the Control Stick (when you press Down-B) in the direction of offstage.

 

[Mr.Pikachu]

Thanks!

 

[Funkermonster]

How do you perform this grab release stuff on Lucas and who can do it to him the most easily (w/a Gamecube controller if anyone asks)? I'm not really interested in playing as Lucas too much (still fun to use though), I'm more interested in playing against him. I can't find any videos of it in action and I don't understand what it looks like.

Are there any chars who can't do it on him at all?

 

[PKBeam]

OK, if you want to WIN with a CP then pick. Unless you actually know how to use a counterpick (like secondary knowledge) don't try to CP at all really because if you can't consistently do the GR then these MUs become much easier for . And you have to actually LAND the grab. And you can't just try to run up and grab him. and both have about 2 frames margin for error so BE SURE to buffer it (never use a shieldgrab). In fact, you should buffer everything.

has a grab release semi-infinite. End the GR with Dsmash (or Fsmash if he's trying to DI out far).
has a cargo infinite but you must pivot repeatedly and be able to buffer a pivot, then a grab otherwise Lucas will slide far out of his grab range. End with Dsmash.
has GRDACUS and regrab (air release).
has Fsmash
has DR Fsmash and Usmash (air release)
has a very low sliding dash regrab which functions very similarly to a standing regrab, and it's possible to try for an air release (although can be grabbed out of that too I believe)

And don't forget the wall infinites on andfor anyone with a frame 11 or less grab.

No-one else has a MU changing GR, really.
can alternate between standing regrab and dash regrabbing but it's probably much better for him to just Dthrow CG.
P.S. has the same air release as .

 

[Mekos]

Hey guys I'm no longer in the corporate world and have alot more time on my hands these days.
I plan to be involved again with the boards. Let me know if you guys have any questions for me.

 

[Funkermonster]

Thank you, I think I can understand it a little better now.

Can anyone else show me a pic or video (such as a fight in a tournament or something) of this stuff just so I can get a good idea of how it looks? I'm more of a visual learner.

 

[PKBeam]

lol all of these are Mekos
: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tqdB2K_69I
: www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2QzjgcBXX0
: www.youtube.com/watch?v=So3c7d08NVU
It's pretty hard to find and .
There is one of a doing it on a, it's the same thing on: (8:26) www.youtube.com/watch?v=qApJNHx_to8

It's all but unheard of to actually have a 0-death in tournaments (besides Ice Climbers)

Hey guys I'm no longer in the corporate world and have alot more time on my hands these days.
I plan to be involved again with the boards. Let me know if you guys have any questions for me.

What's your opinion on the Sheik, Pikachu and ICs MU numbers?

 

[Jamwa]

ICs probably -2
pikachu even
shiek i dunno, probably +1 (shiek sucks imo, who cares if she has a GR. The GR can be SDId anyway if it's that much of an issue.)

 

[Mekos]

I'm going to base my opinions based as if our opponent knows the matchup
ICs -2 I agree with Jamwa

Pikachu -1 because of the chain grab

Sheik - 1 I've never had a problem with sheik but I've also never played one offline in tourney except for doubles. She does have the tools to be really annoying for us tho.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

I found out that Link,ZSS,and Samus can grab release infinite Ness and Lucas

 

[Jamwa]

I found out that Link,ZSS,and Samus can grab release infinite Ness and Lucas

Lucas and Ness have 10 frames of lag after a gr, and it takes 2 frames to spotdodge; so they're becoming invincible on frame 12.
This means you need a grab that starts on frame 11 or sooner.

Link's grab:
Start-up 1-11Hit-on 12-19

Samus' grab: couldnt find it
ZZS' grab: couldnt find it

anyway, they can't infinite because im pretty sure Samus' and ZZS' grabs start after frame 11. This is why Lucas can't infinite himself/Ness (his grab starts on 13).
Also ZSS can regrab Lucas after an air release I'm pretty sure, but that's far from infinite.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Lucas and Ness have 10 frames of lag after a gr, and it takes 2 frames to spotdodge; so they're becoming invincible on frame 12.
This means you need a grab that starts on frame 11 or sooner.

Link's grab:
Start-up 1-11Hit-on 12-19

Samus' grab: couldnt find it
ZZS' grab: couldnt find it

anyway, they can't infinite because im pretty sure Samus' and ZZS' grabs start after frame 11. This is why Lucas can't infinite himself/Ness (his grab starts on 13).
Also ZSS can regrab Lucas after an air release I'm pretty sure, but that's far from infinite.

Oh

 

[PKBeam]

Is like frame 17, she just barely gets an air release regrab lol

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Is like frame 17, she just barely gets an air release regrab lol

on ssbwiki it is frame 16

 

[PKBeam]

same thing.

 

[Luco]

If what you're saying is true in that Lucas has the exact same aerial release as MK then yes ZSS has a guaranteed CG on Lucas in the same way as she does for MK.

Also, Yoshi's one is pretty easy. Once you get a feel for when his animation is done you just tap the control stick to run and almost immediately press grab again. My brother can do it to me pretty well.... unfortunately. :/

ICs is something i'm oddly optimistic about. -2 is justifiable but i've noticed our intense shield pressure game can seperate the climbers really easily and from there it's less of an issue.

Yeah -2 is justifiable.

Which reminds me Mekos, I saw a match of you recently where you versed Vinnie's ICs and were up by a stock and you choked and lost the match. I was sad. ;_;

 

[Mekos]

Nah, I didn't choke. My arm started muscle spasming . It's a health issue. Basically I had to start playing with one arm mid match and then all through out the match with peach. The worst luck man!! ugh! Was so frustrating. I've had a disease almost kill me called Lupus in middle school and it left some side effects :/.

Anyways guys I would appreciate y'all support. I finally made my twitter acct for connecting with the competitive gaming community. I'll be posting updates about me and 9B(top player from Japan) as we do our best to win Sktar 3, the international ssb tournament. It will be a challenge since we speak different languages lol. If you have a twitter lets connect! @Mtotheekos or https://twitter.com/Mtotheekos.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Nah, I didn't choke. My arm started muscle spasming . It's a health issue. Basically I had to start playing with one arm mid match and then all through out the match with peach. The worst luck man!! ugh! Was so frustrating. I've had a disease almost kill me called Lupus in middle school and it left some side effects :/.

Anyways guys I would appreciate y'all support. I finally made my twitter acct for connecting with the competitive gaming community. I'll be posting updates about me and 9B(top player from Japan) as we do our best to win Sktar 3, the international ssb tournament. It will be a challenge since we speak different languages lol. If you have a twitter lets connect! @Mtotheekos or https://twitter.com/Mtotheekos.

That is Scary are OK right now? I worried about you Mekos

 

[Jamwa]

Mekos + 9B doubles? That's hype.

 

[Luco]

Nah, I didn't choke. My arm started muscle spasming . It's a health issue. Basically I had to start playing with one arm mid match and then all through out the match with peach. The worst luck man!! ugh! Was so frustrating. I've had a disease almost kill me called Lupus in middle school and it left some side effects :/.

Anyways guys I would appreciate y'all support. I finally made my twitter acct for connecting with the competitive gaming community. I'll be posting updates about me and 9B(top player from Japan) as we do our best to win Sktar 3, the international ssb tournament. It will be a challenge since we speak different languages lol. If you have a twitter lets connect! @Mtotheekos or https://twitter.com/Mtotheekos.

Aww i'm so sorry.

 

[Mekos]

Yea, I'm good man. Didn't happen at all at sktar. Never has happened at a 2 day tourney.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Yea, I'm good man. Didn't happen at all at sktar. Never has happened at a 2 day tourney.

I'm glad I was surprised that you and 9B got 7th in Doubles Lucas,Ice Climbers a very weird team but awesome strats (Healing) I also think Lucario & Lucas is a dominant team because as Lucario gets stronger he is more powerful and heal more health and Lucas is a stocktank because the healing

 

[Mekos]

Oh yea. I feel me and trela could win a national but he doesn't have heart for the game

Notes from the tourney

Doubles (my passion!)
Teaming with 9B was fun. We tried to get their a day early to train but unfortunately couldn't get to the same house. So we just winged it without being able to communicate. I wish that we could have at least mastered setting up to heal once he respawns(use his invis frames).
We lost to second(m2k/Ally) and third place(Esam/MVD). Don't understand why we had to play m2k/ally so early.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqdoXaqIuNk
The set vs mvd/esam will be up prob after Wednesday.

Singles
9B and I went even in friendlies(1 on 1) and he said I was the best lucas he has ever played. Made me feel good xD

-My first match was against a decent snake. He knew how to abuse lucas. I won 2-0 last stock high percent each match. ugh snake.
-My second match was against 8bitman. I have to say I think he is the best Rob. He is the only Rob I have ever played who I couldn't read his lasers. I clutched both close games.

-Next v115 bopped me. He was the better player that day. He feels the matchup is even but Esam and I don't agree. Lucas is a bad champ whose main strength is his quickness. Well, Zss is quicker than us. Welp. Would need some heavy lab time to overcome that character at high level play. I struggle with characters that are quicker than us and who we have a hard time pressuring. I honestly felt really slow on my reaction time(Haven't been to a tourney in ages) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmtlmbNWS7E

-I'm salty about my losers bracket loss. I lost to player 1. I was told I was done for the day Saturday night and hadn't touched the controller in like 4 hours. He came up to me after playing through his losers bracket and was like we need to play. I said i guess. He is a good player who can't be slept on and who I would need to be prepared for(You have to be in top shape to beat a player who has mastered a chain grab on you). Oh well. When smash 4 comes out I'm taking control of my smash destiny and am gonna be strict with what I allow. Like, I'll say I need time to warm up or won't allow a tv with no sound. Just a lot of silly things have affected my gameplay over the years an I'm not gonna allow it in smash 4! haha

Overall
I went to this tourney to stay connected with the community. I'm going to be playing mario kart 8 until smash 3ds comes out. Lets hope that lucas is in it! . I hope to see you guys at smash 4 tourneys. That is my sktar update.

*I'm visiting my mom to take care of her right now but will be back in my house on Saturday. If you love mario kart message me your wii u username so we can play! .

 

[Jamwa]

tbh, after playing a good ZSS, I gotta say the MU is even.

a lot of her spacing tools are quite slow, so you can punish those on reaction and if the ZSS is approaching, then that's great.
the only character that shuts down lucas whilst approaching at the same time is MK because he has a huge frame 5 or something nair and an invincible shuttleloop.
i cant see what ZSS has to stop shield pressure or how to stop lucas getting in other than a jab, and she needs to be grounded to do those.

right after V115 spawned you showed how easy it was to get in on ZSS. sure they were reads, but that's pretty much ZSS' neutral game.
im going to say that ZSS is a hard MU to learn, but defs even once you understand the character.
there were a lot of missed punishes that just require so experience in the mu to know, and im only saying this because it's easy to see what happens in a video; when you're playing it is different.
she doesn't do anything that gives her an advantage imo, but she does have tools to deal with some of our stuff as we do for her.

good job though, I haven't watched you in ages and after kinda giving up on brawl (been playing melee/p:m and now I've forgotten how to play Lucas) i said "oh yeah that's how you play Lucas..."

 

[Mekos]

Ah thanks for the advice.

I would disagree tho about mk only being the character to shut down our approach tho. Another example would be G&W. That matchup to me is purely about who can get the lead and then camp haha. His tools allow him to keep us away.

Also, imo the top ZSS players are quite fast in movement and with their tools(Salem, V115, etc). When lucas is inside her uptilt can stop our pressure out of shield. When In practice I would bait this alot but I forgot. If we space correctly we can bait it shield and punish. If not spaced correctly her uptilt our of shield punishes our approach. Some advantages are that she beats us in the air. As you saw I only beat her when I read her aggro approach and whenever she tried to get revenge(which is a bad mistake. you should mostly go back to neutral in brawl after getting hit). But if she was smart and just used her speed to bait my approach she could easily punish me while on cooldown. She also is hard for us to edge guard.

Any matchup that we are forced to rely on the opponents mistakes, is a matchup in their favor imo. That is most of our matchups haha and that is why lucas struggles against opponents that understand him.

Question - How do we edge guard Zss?

 

[Jamwa]

Ah thanks for the advice.

I would disagree tho about mk only being the character to shut down our approach tho. Another example would be G&W. That matchup to me is purely about who can get the lead and then camp haha. His tools allow him to keep us away.

Also, imo the top ZSS players are quite fast in movement and with their tools(Salem, V115, etc). When lucas is inside her uptilt can stop our pressure out of shield. When In practice I would bait this alot but I forgot. If we space correctly we can bait it shield and punish. If not spaced correctly her uptilt our of shield punishes our approach. Some advantages are that she beats us in the air. As you saw I only beat her when I read her aggro approach and whenever she tried to get revenge(which is a bad mistake. you should mostly go back to neutral in brawl after getting hit). But if she was smart and just used her speed to bait my approach she could easily punish me while on cooldown. She also is hard for us to edge guard.

Any matchup that we are forced to rely on the opponents mistakes, is a matchup in their favor imo. That is most of our matchups haha and that is why lucas struggles against opponents that understand him.

Question - How do we edge guard Zss?

ye i hate G&W
I used to be very good against G&W but the games were still close - just so hard to get in.
I pretty much had to bait bair just so i could SDI it and then uair to get % leads and then camp.
G&W doesn't really approach though, he just shuts us down.

yeah, i gotta check the frame data on ZSS' ulti and Lucas' dair on shield. I'll admit they do have to make mistakes, but that's just what I call opportunity to bait and punish haha
im too optimistic when it comes to lucas because of his frame data, but it's so hard to convert in an actual match....

I think if she's offstage, PKT *can* work if she has no DJ. i try to make an S motion going down towards her after she tethers, so that if she tries to Up-b again she cops the PKT's tail.
I think that's the only way though, i cant think of anything else.
I cant see us beating her forward-b or uair offstage. maybe a dropzone magnet or fire will catch them offguard due to the extra range they have...
bair sure does beat ZSS's options, but its just so damn slow that it can be reacted to, so i dont consider it an option unless the ZSS isn't showing intuition.

just a question, have you experimented with uair out of shield? I saw pink fresh using it right before he quit to play p:m and it was really good for punishing opponents behind lucas.

 

[Mekos]

uh it's all situational. I use up air out of shield if I sense it will hit or I'll be safe after using it...hope you get what I mean.
I kill alot of mk's with up air out of shield.

 

[Jamwa]

uair catching bad di kills so early haha