The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[DarkISDA]

Marth-D3 is not so bad.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

IMO, DK should be not mid tier, but alongside Ganon. He's THAT BAD. It's not because he has a lack of options or anything. It's because DK virtually auto-loses to anyone who isn't absolutely terrible and has the brains to pick DDD against him. Like, it's one thing if you have a hard counter matchup where the opponent has to know the character they're countering you with and you auto-lose (like, say, anyone that ICs has an absolutely ******** matchup against), you don't automatically lose the instant your opponent can counterpick you. You just have to know how to shieldgrab as DDD to win against DK.

I thought wario was a much gayer MU for DK?

 

[Shaya]

Its a disadvantaged match up.
Believe it.

Sometimes I feel like arguing its worse than MK.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I mean if the infinite on DK/small step CG'ing is banned in tournie it wouldnt be that horrible for DK

Wario discussion on DK MU VVV
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257562

 

[da K.I.D.]

@ dark3

dk wario is a gay match up from both sides, wario can cg dk, and dk can kill wario at 90 with GR up smash.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Its a disadvantaged match up.
Believe it.

Sometimes I feel like arguing its worse than MK.

I thought wario was a much gayer MU for DK?

LOL.

Let's think-what can DK do against a campy D3? Let's assume, for simplicity's sake, the DDD is doing nothing but blocking and shieldgrabbing on reaction.

Bair? Nope, gets shieldgrabbed, DK loses the stock.
Walk up->ftilt/dtilt? Nope, gets shieldgrabbed, DK loses the stock.

Virtually any attack DK does? Nope, gets shieldgrabbed, DK loses the stock. And this is a DDD that is doing nothing but sitting there, blocking, and grabbing.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

@ dark3

dk wario is a gay match up from both sides, wario can cg dk, and dk can kill wario at 90 with GR up smash.

Given Wario's mobility i'd say he'd have an easier time

LOL.

Let's think-what can DK do against a campy D3? Let's assume, for simplicity's sake, the DDD is doing nothing but blocking and shieldgrabbing on reaction.

Bair? Nope, gets shieldgrabbed, DK loses the stock.
Walk up->ftilt/dtilt? Nope, gets shieldgrabbed, DK loses the stock.

Virtually any attack DK does? Nope, gets shieldgrabbed, DK loses the stock. And this is a DDD that is doing nothing but sitting there, blocking, and grabbing.

I think DKs are alilttle bit smarter than what you give them credit for There is a something called spacing you know

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Believe it.

...

Sorry.

On topic, though, I imagine DK Down-B would help against Dedede...?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think DKs are alilttle bit smarter than what you give them credit for There is a something called spacing you know

I'm basing myself on the following:

-DK has one disjointed hitbox that is very laggy (downB) and otherwise no disjoints whatsoever
-DK has a moderate air speed; not the kind of thing you can poke with
-DDD has a huge grab range
-Grab armor

A character that you can not use in a counterpick scenario (hell, if you know you're going up against a DK, you can just abuse the double blind that the DK will probably (if he's smart) ask for and pick DDD right away), like, EVER, is not a good character.

As far as DownB... how does this help DK? If DK gets close enough for it to hit DDD, it's laggy enough that he'll either get running shield->dashgrabbed or the DDD will just jump over, Dair, and reset position. Right?

 

[Shaya]

I was talking about D3 v Marth btw, not D3 v DK.

lol reflex

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

OIC.

DK vs. DDD is unwinnable if the DDD knows about the CG (and who doesn't?) and isn't absolutely terrible at spacing and then running into ****.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I'm basing myself on the following:

-DK has one disjointed hitbox that is very laggy (downB) and otherwise no disjoints whatsoever

yup

-DK has a moderate air speed; not the kind of thing you can poke with

DDD isnt exactly Jigglypuff in the air out of a SH either

-DDD has a huge grab range

true

-Grab armor

Lost me here, arent all characters capable of this feat?

 

[da K.I.D.]

one matchup should never have that great of an impact on a characters tier position, unless its the matchup vs mk.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

yup


DDD isnt exactly Jigglypuff in the air out of a SH either

Yeah, but he doesn't necessarily have to approach. Projectiles, and such. If a DDD plays patiently (as in, doing nothing but blocking and grabbing) he should never lose against DK.

true

Lost me here, arent all characters capable of this feat?

All of them are, but DDD is able to abuse it. A lot.

one matchup should never have that great of an impact on a characters tier position, unless its the matchup vs mk.

Wrong. There's a second reason the matchup can be that important-if anyone can counter your char by just picking up the counter for the very first time (given that he knows one obscenely simple AT).

Anyone from DK boards wanna tell me I'm wrong?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I can tell you your wrong.

it really isnt that simple. its like fox vs pika, yea its a bit one sided and its hard, but thinking your going to just CP and get an easy win is the easiest way to get taken out of a tourney bracket.

trust me, its happened to me personally before.

I play both of those matchups regularly.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Really? Why, what does the DK do? Why can he even hit you?

The differences between DK-DDD and Fox-Pika are:
-Pika has a moderate grab range, vs. the second-best non-tether range in the game
-Fox can camp and countercamp; DK has no projectiles and also no reflector.
-Fox has one or two disjoints AFAIK; pika has about as many. DK has no disjoints, DDD is a huge disjointed hammer machine.

 

[YagamiLight]

I've always been of the opinion that no matter how good a character is they can't be mid tier if they have impossible match-ups. That's probably why I think much less highly of Fox and DK than most of the community does.

Picking DDD v DK doesn't guarantee you the win only if you really don't know how to press R/L->A. You don't even need to learn the timing for the infinite, just switch the Cstick to grabs for that one match.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What YL said. Thank you. And DDD-DK isn't even impossible like ICs-Ganon, where the ICs player has to know how to use their char. DDD just has to spam shieldgrab.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I dont get where you are coming from that bair gets shield grabed...

down b has more range than ddds f tilt, so he has to take to the air, and you cant grab in the air. or you can throw a slow azz waddle.

if you spotdodge an attack to get the grab, dks up b will **** you for like 20%+

if you think you do have teh shieldgrab, dk can hover right above your grab with side b, which leads into a free kill at about 100.

im pretty sure you cant shield grab a well spaced f tilt either.

granted some of these things can be negated with power shielding, but power shielding isnt really included in "spam shield grab to win"

 

[humble]

I dont get where you are coming from that bair gets shield grabed...

down b has more range than ddds f tilt, so he has to take to the air, and you cant grab in the air. or you can throw a slow azz waddle.

if you spotdodge an attack to get the grab, dks up b will **** you for like 20%+

if you think you do have teh shieldgrab, dk can hover right above your grab with side b, which leads into a free kill at about 100.

im pretty sure you cant shield grab a well spaced f tilt either.

granted some of these things can be negated with power shielding, but power shielding isnt really included in "spam shield grab to win"

If DK down-b's, D3 RARs a bair on DK.

...No, there is a thing called endlag, after you attack. Unfortunately you can't cancel an attack directly into another with no lag, so spotdodge gives a frame advantage allowing punishment, likely in the form of a grab.

...What?!? xD You realize D3 just shields side-b and punishes its ridiculous end lag, right? He falls after using it, in alot of lag, right where D3 would shield grab.

Yes, DKs arm is part of his body (hurtbox) when D3 grabs he will grab the outstretched limb which counts as part of DKs hurtbox. Essentially if it isn't disjoint D3 can shieldgrab it.

"spam power shield to grab to win"


D3 shieldgrab > all of DKs options.

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. If DK down-b's, D3 RARs a bair on DK.

2. ...No, there is a thing called endlag, after you attack. Unfortunately you can't cancel an attack directly into another with no lag, so spotdodge gives a frame advantage allowing punishment, likely in the form of a grab.

3. ...What?!? xD You realize D3 just shields side-b and punishes its ridiculous end lag, right? He falls after using it, in alot of lag, right where D3 would shield grab.

4. Yes, DKs arm is part of his body (hurtbox) when D3 grabs he will grab the outstretched limb which counts as part of DKs hurtbox. Essentially if it isn't disjoint D3 can shieldgrab it.

5. "spam power shield to grab to win" D3 shieldgrab > all of DKs options.

1. im not sure you are fully comprehending the interaction between dk and ddd when dk is slapping the ground. d3 doesnt have enough air speed to reliably punish dks down b, because he has to take to the air from far enough away, that it gives dk time to stop hitting the ground, and shield and punish the incoming bair.

and since when is back air from ddd a part of shield grab to win? you cant say "all you need to do is shield grab" and than in the next sentance say, "you need to bair". thats self-contradictory...

2. Spotdodges are about half a second. You cant spotdodge a move like dks up b that lasts more than a full second. if a smart dk knows your only going to hold up your shield and spot dodge and try to grab, hes going to wait till your shield gets low, than up b right at you, because if you hold the shield up, it will poke, and if you spot dodge, the move out lasts it.

3. if DK is falling to the ground. and the ddd knows hes going to try and space a back air, hes going to run in and attempt to shield grab. but the dk can predict the shield grab and hover right above the whiffed grab with a headbutt which is a setup for retardedly low % kills. its a high risk, high reward situation. yes the ddd can hold his shield up a little longer and punish it and than the dk is boned, but with all this shielding that you guys are going to want to do, eventually your shield is going to get low. and dks headbutt eats shields way too well, which makes it so that even if you do shield it, your shield might break from it anyway. which would lead seemlessly into another headbutt, and a charged smash, and a low percent kill. theres a chance of either of those things happening but in this matchup with dk (and a lot of the time with dk in general) you have to have a "go big or go home mentallity" because he doesnt have ways to always stay safe and manuver and things like that but he has great ways to capitalise huge on big odds situations.

4. Im lead to believe that if dk f tilts after it hits ddd's shield he pulls his arm back out of ddds grab range, and that to grab it, ddd would have to run forward a bit to land it, and with ddds terri-awful speed i dont see that punish happening. i could be wrong tho.

5. Except down b and rising back air.

once again, dont get me wrong its still a really bad matchup, but dk isnt nearly as helpless as you are making him out to be.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

-Pika has a moderate grab range, vs. the second-best non-tether range in the game

I thought Pikachu had one of the worst grabs...

 

[Code Lyon]

So did I....

EDIT: As prementioned unlike DK, Fox can camp you just don't pick up Pika or ICs and it's an auto-loss for the Fox...

P.S. Try over doing it and expect 40% tacked on due to predictable sheildgrabbing.

 

[NoriakiZ]

YYYEEEEEEESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!
Capt. Falcon is slowly growing strong with every tier list... Soon, he will return to his former glory.
(also, Toon Link went up! Sonic was fine where he was.)

 

[studly]

YYYEEEEEEESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!
Capt. Falcon is slowly growing strong with every tier list... Soon, he will return to his former glory.
(also, Toon Link went up! Sonic was fine where he was.)

saying former isnt really appropriate since Scar and others are still kicking *** with him in melee tournaments

 

[Javon89]

By the way, is Toon Link Bomb-Cancel Dsmash legal?

D3 destroys DK, his options are wayy too limited, and D3 is pretty popular.

Pika> Fox as long as Pika can get grabs, avoid those random Usmash kills and spaces well.

 

[Code Lyon]

Former as in (I guess) the Melee-Brawl transition glory XD.

EDIT: Never heard of it Javon but why would it be illegal?

 

[Spelt]

Yes it's legal.
most characters can recover after it and it really only impairs people with the really bad recoveries.
you're still gonna have to do some good gimping work after the dsmash.


aaand fox's usmash kills are hardly random. it comes out on frame 8. that's a large number of moves that it can punish OoS.

although hiding in your shield isn't the best choice vs pika.

 

[Javon89]

Sorry I thought the were random since I thought that Fox doesn't have a solid way to go in for the kill.

Curse my late 2009 thinking...

 

[Code Lyon]

Like I said you don't just pick up Pika and it's auto-win you have to actually know how to play Pika.

 

[YagamiLight]

Sheik v Fox is harder than Pika v Fox anyway, isn't it?

 

[Javon89]

Yea, just like ICs vs Ganon mentioned back.

EDIT: YL, I think it is, back when I used Fox I lost more to Shiek than Pika, F-tilt locks messed me up baaadd.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Sheik v Fox is harder than Pika v Fox anyway, isn't it?

I am unsure, since fox has about as many options vs pika as he does vs shiek. he cant camp shiek as well, but he gimps her way better, the up smash kills both of them about the same.

I think shiek might be somewhat easier since you can SDI the f tilts.

 

[Code Lyon]

Sheik v Fox is harder than Pika v Fox anyway, isn't it?

No pika is worse actually, due to the fact without the Ftilt lock it would probably be even (maybe Fox adv.) but even if pika doesn't have the CG his moves beat most of Fox's it probably be 60:40 Pika if there wasn't a CG

EDIT: It's easier to camp Shiek than Pika.

 

[da K.I.D.]

EDIT: It's easier to camp Shiek than Pika.

really? isnt shieks long range game just as good as fox with her needles?

 

[Code Lyon]

Hmmm maybe but to me (idk about other Foxes) I could just jump over them reflect then shine cancel afterwards.

P.S. Yes you can jump cancel the Shine if you get hit with a projectile while in shining.

 

[Spelt]

even with SDI the ftilt lock goes to like 100% + tipper usmash. not sure if SDI saves you from upsmash though, it might.

 

[Code Lyon]

SDI saves you from Usmash at 100 not sure about 120 though....

I would argue for Fox's sake but usually MU arguements don't well over Tatical Brawl.


EDIT: Idk it think I go could pick ICs against a knowledgable ganon main and beat him.

 

[Conviction]

Like I said you don't just pick up Pika and it's auto-win you have to actually know how to play Pika.

This ^

No pika is worse actually, due to the fact without the Ftilt lock it would probably be even (maybe Fox adv.) but even if pika doesn't have the CG his moves beat most of Fox's it probably be 60:40 Pika if there wasn't a CG

EDIT: It's easier to camp Shiek than Pika.

This too

Hmmm maybe but to me (idk about other Foxes) I could just jump over them reflect then shine cancel afterwards.

P.S. Yes you can jump cancel the Shine if you get hit with a projectile while in shining.

I think it's easy to aviod Shiek's needles.

EDIT: So i hear Chuee called me stupid for agruing Fox vs. ZSS is even....now I go back to Fox boards and I believe the MU ratio says 60:40 Fox. You know I'm pretty sure that's what is says unless I'm blind or something Chuee.

 

[studly]

really? isnt shieks long range game just as good as fox with her needles?

but isnt the way that Sheik uses her needles a little more "stiff" than Pika being able to Di around while he uses his electricity?

to me that makes him harder to camp against. but thats just opinion