The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Chuee]

Seriously, how does losing to HAZE or Havok make you bad at the Marth matchup. If Ally is garbage against Marth you and 99% of the smash community sucks lubricated horse **** in the matchup.

So yeah ZSS

Yeah, they're good but I don't really know if they're better than Ally skillwise =/

 

[Coney]

why would you even have to make that comparison, though..."skill levels" are so completely ridiculous and subjective, especially in brawl, a game that's primarily about matchups and, to a lesser extent, experience

snake might lose or go even with marth, and ally might be bad against marth personally, that's fine, but to say he's garbage when he loses to a top marth, even THE top marth, isn't just really really dumb, it's also pretty disrespectful

 

[Inferno3044]

I agree with Coney. Ally is one of the best players but just because he's bad against Marth and loses to the best Marth doesn't make him garbage.

Anyways is it tier list time where we start talking about who we think should go up or down on the tier list?

 

[Chuee]

I said he's lost to Haze quite a few times =/
He's not bad at the MU because he lost to Haze, he's bad at the MU because he doesn't have a good record against top Marth's not named Neo.
EDIT: Inferno- I said Ally was bad at the MU not Ally was a bad player lol.

 

[Johnny Citrus]

IMO who cares. ally is good, not a god.

blabbering about his mu records is just dumb you could be getting better at brawl or something instead.

 

[Spelt]

i love how there's like 5 people coming in at the same time awhile after his post all complaining about the same thing.

Anyways is it tier list time where we start talking about who we think should go up or down on the tier list?

that started 500 pages ago.

 

[Inferno3044]

I said he's lost to Haze quite a few times =/
He's not bad at the MU because he lost to Haze, he's bad at the MU because he doesn't have a good record against top Marth's not named Neo.
EDIT: Inferno- I said Ally was bad at the MU not Ally was a bad player lol.

My bad about the misread. It is true that Ally doesn't do well against Marth. Ally is amazing though.

@Spelt - I meant for Tier list v5

 

[<π]

Ally is my favorite player to watch.

too bad he doesn't play sheik...

 

[Shaya]

I've said it since July 2009.

"Marth ***** snake".

I only find it easier to beat snake with dedede. Marth just dances in the air around snakes head and he's like "lolwut?"
Marth has acceptable options out of his dthrow, which is pretty much what gives snake the **** against a lot of the other "bad match ups".

Either way, snake is stupid, so no one is allowed to beat him, unless they happen to be as heavy as he is. And alas, the nature of snake, was born.

 

[Deleted member]

Shaya confiming that bowser beats snake 70:30

 

[stingers]

move ROB up on the tier list =[

 

[<π]

I think bowser could actually do pretty well against snake if people would learn the match up.

side B gimps are too good.

 

[niftybird]

I think "ROB" has more potential than people think!

He should move up on the next list!!

 

[lordhelmet]

ROB is garbs

 

[stingers]

I think "ROB" has more potential than people think!

He should move up on the next list!!

yeaaa, this guy knows whats up.

 

[<π]

whats ROB?

 

[YagamiLight]

Spoiler

A:
Meta Knight
Diddy Kong
Snake
Falco
Ice Climbers
Olimar
B:
Marth
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
King DeDeDe
Mr. Game & Watch
Kirby
C:
Wario
Pit
Mario
ROB
Lucario
D:
Donkey Kong
Yoshi
Wolf
Toon Link
Luigi
Fox
Sonic
Peach
E:
Shiek
Lucas
Bowser
Captain Falcon
F:
Ness
Pokemon Trainer
Zelda
Jigglypuff
G:
Ganondorf
Samus
Ike
Link

Bit late but:

The best thing I like about this list (besides the extreme bias towards Mario which, may I add, is a common trait of all these silly Mario users) is that this list is stupid enough to place Ganondorf above Ike.

You would have to be legally blind to, after having played this game for at least 20 minutes, not realize that Ike is pretty much an upgraded version of Ganondorf. Excluding the fact that Ike's jab is a better character than everyone in low tier, it baffles me as to how you could possibly come to the conclusion that Ike and Ganondorf are anywhere near each other on the tier list (much less actually put Ike below Ganondorf).

I could let a drugged, senile baboon play this game and I'm certain that even it could tell that Ike is: faster (air movement, walk, initial dash, full run), has a ground game (jab), a huge disjoint, better range, better priority, a recovery that isn't countered by BEING HIT BY IT, and is stronger as well (I could probably let the druggy baboon slide if he didn't figure out this last point). The only things that Ganon can even claim to have over Ike are (bad) air grabs, slightly higher weight (at the expense of a bigger frame) and the fact that his throws do more damage (disregarding the fact that Ganon has the worst grab range in the game and that Ike has throw combos).

My mind is blown by the sheer stupidity of the statement that Ike is worse than Ganondorf.

 

[niftybird]

whats ROB?

He is the robot!

"R.O.B." the "robot"!

 

[Technodeath]

I love you Light.

 

[Mota]

What with the consecutive MLG massacres, I think M2Ks Metaknight deserves to rise another tier.

 

[Meru.]

If a final tier list was ever made, I think [or rather hope] it would look like this:

Spoiler

A:
Meta Knight
Diddy Kong
Snake
Falco
Ice Climbers
Olimar
B:
Marth
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
King DeDeDe
Mr. Game & Watch
Kirby
C:
Wario
Pit
Mario
ROB
Lucario
D:
Donkey Kong
Yoshi
Wolf
Toon Link
Luigi
Fox
Sonic
Peach
E:
Shiek
Lucas
Bowser
Captain Falcon
F:
Ness
Pokemon Trainer
Zelda
Jigglypuff
G:
Ganondorf
Samus
Ike
Link

There was clearly a lot of hope involved.

The ones that truly stand out:

Olimar...
Kirby?
Wario?
Mario?!?!?!?
Lucario?
Pit?
Yoshi?!?!
Toon Link?
Wolf?
Peach?!?!?!
Ness?!
Lucas?
Captain Falcon?!?!?
Ike?!?!?

 

[humble]

Random tier list goooo!!

S: Meta Knight (-)
A: Snake(-), Diddy Kong (-), Falco (-), Marth (+1), Ice Climbers (-1), Wario (-)
B: Olimar (+2), King Dedede (-1), Pikachu (-1), Lucario (-), Zero Suit Samus (+4)
C: Toon Link (+1), Mr. Game & Watch (-2), Pit (-2), Kirby (-), Peach (+2)
D: Fox (+2), R.O.B. (-2), Luigi (-), Wolf (-), Sonic (+2)
E: Sheik (-), Pokémon Trainer (-), Donkey Kong (-6), Ike (+3), Ness (-1)
F: Lucas (-), Bowser (-3), Yoshi (-), Mario (-), Falcon (-), Samus (-), Jigglypuff (-)
G: Link (+1), Ganondorf (+1), Zelda (-2)

 

[DMG]

Yes, because Wario is definitely worse than Kirby

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Peach, Fox and Shiek have the potiential. They will be going up.

 

[-LzR-]

Insert char here has potential and will go up.

 

[Juushichi]

Random tier list goooo!!

S: Meta Knight (-)
A: Snake(-), Diddy Kong (-), Falco (-), Marth (+1), Ice Climbers (-1), Wario (-)
B: Olimar (+2), King Dedede (-1) [I think this might be -2 behind Pika], Pikachu (-1)[Why?], Lucario (-), Zero Suit Samus (+4) [Possible.]
C: Toon Link (+1), Mr. Game & Watch (-2), Pit (-2), Kirby (-), Peach (+2)
D: Fox (+2), R.O.B. (-2), Luigi (-), Wolf (-), Sonic (+2)
E: Sheik (-), Pokémon Trainer (-), Donkey Kong (-6) [...What?], Ike (+3) [I anticipate a bigger jump], Ness (-1) [Meh.]
F: Lucas (-), Bowser (-3), Yoshi (-) [Needs a rise], Mario (-) [Needs a rise? Idk, really. Not sure where to put my main, to be honest.], Falcon (-), Samus (-), Jigglypuff (-)
G: Link (+1), Ganondorf (+1), Zelda (-2)

Things that I noticed/had issue with in bold by brackets.

 

[Meru.]

Random tier list goooo!!

S: Meta Knight (-)
A: Snake(-), Diddy Kong (-), Falco (-), Marth (+1), Ice Climbers (-1), Wario (-)
B: Olimar (+2), King Dedede (-1), Pikachu (-1), Lucario (-), Zero Suit Samus (+4)
C: Toon Link (+1), Mr. Game & Watch (-2), Pit (-2), Kirby (-), Peach (+2)
D: Fox (+2), R.O.B. (-2), Luigi (-), Wolf (-), Sonic (+2)
E: Sheik (-), Pokémon Trainer (-), Donkey Kong (-6), Ike (+3), Ness (-1)
F: Lucas (-), Bowser (-3), Yoshi (-), Mario (-), Falcon (-), Samus (-), Jigglypuff (-)
G: Link (+1), Ganondorf (+1), Zelda (-2)

IMO:

Pit is too high.
Peach should be where Pit is now.
Fox can be a little bit higher.
Donkey Kong is waaaay too low. His placing now is fine.
Sonic isnt a tier ahead of Sheik, PT and Ness.
Zelda is way too low. If there's one direction she's going, it's up. She's not worse than Link and definitely not worse than Ganondorf.

 

[Shaya]

i think link is better than zelda.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think they are both so underused, and yet both so "meh", it could go either way.

 

[humble]

IMO:

Pit is too high.
Peach should be where Pit is now.
Fox can be a little bit higher.
Donkey Kong is waaaay too low. His placing now is fine.
Sonic isnt a tier ahead of Sheik, PT and Ness.
Zelda is way too low. If there's one direction she's going, it's up. She's not worse than Link and definitely not worse than Ganondorf.

Pit: I think he could drop to bottom of C tier at worst, but not really any lower.
Peach: I think Peach is C tier, but bottom of C tier, not mid.
Fox: I agree Fox could be higher, I didn't want to crowd C tier however. He and Peach will both rise.
DK: In my opinion, DK needs a severe drop, he simply isn't viable when he is the easiest counterpicked character in the game, who gets wrecked completely. He is a good character otherwise, but he just can't play without a secondary at all, and a character handicapped like that should be ranked lower.
PT/Ness/Sheik/Sonic: PT and Ness have inherent character flaws that hold them back (PT isn't always squirtle, Ness just isn't as good a character) Sheik just doesn't have the rep or results to warrant a rise in tier. Meanwhile, Sonic has consistent rep and results, and despite how much sonic mains seem to hate him, he does do consistently better then his tier placing, and I think it's because he is too low on the list.
H tier: True, Zelda does have down-b.

 

[M@v]

Diddy's dropping this time. Falco will be 3rd, mayyyybeee even second. That's shaky though.

 

[dainbramage]

By tradition, a new character must be third each tier list. So I guess snake or marth get the honour this time around.

 

[humble]

I think actually that it might be better to examine smaller groups then tiers, I've noticed that it seems more accurate.

 

[Raziek]

By tradition, a new character must be third each tier list. So I guess snake or marth get the honour this time around.

As long as MK exists, Marth will NEVER be 3rd.

 

[humble]

Personally, I feel like it really actually breaks down into smaller groups then just the tiers. I think that generally characters are really close on each of these levels, and the current tiers are a bit large, in that not all the characters are of the same viability in each tier. Not all are the same here either, but it's much closer.

How I'd rank it:








:shiek:






Meta Knight- kinda obvious, he has his own level because he is a level above everyone else.

Snake, Diddy, Falco- these 3 playing catchup with metaknight, they are all close (to each other)
Wario, Marth, Ice Climbers- these 3 round out top tier, all good, close on the heels of the preceding 3.
Olimar, Pikachu, Lucario- these 3 are borderline, they aren't always viable like top tier and have more struggles and flaws, while still being great.
ZSS, Tlink, Pit- these 3 mark the beginnings of upper tier, characters who can be viable but you have to work more then with top tier.
D3, G&W, Kirby, R.O.B.- these 4 are the falling stars of old, with staling metagames, their simple play hasn't advanced much, they make up the middle of upper tier.
Peach, Fox, Luigi, DK- these 4 are borderline on middle tier, you're gonna have to work with them, but they all are viable and can do well. Close to being upper tier, just not quite.
Wolf, Sonic, Sheik, PT- these 4 are the meat of middle tier, and can still do well in tournaments, but they are definitely mid tier and going to have to fight for it.
Ike, Ness, Lucas- these 3 mark the beginnings of low tier, good, but just not at that same level.
Bowser, Yoshi, Mario- the rest of low tier, the mushroom kingdom residents of old.
Falcon, Samus, Jiggly- the top of bottom tier, doesn't really say much I suppose.
Link, Ganon, Zelda- the bottom of bottom tier, the hyrule kingdom is laughed at.


EDIT: moved DK from low tier to mid tier, dropped D3 from top tier to upper tier.

 

[Raziek]

I pretty much agree with that list, but I highly disagree with placing DK so low on the list just because of the Dedede match-up. I mean, if you want to go by that logic, then Marth should be a lot lower since MK exists.

DK's can pick up a secondary for that. I just dislike the inconsistency between DK being dragged down by one awful matchup, but Falco and Marth don't really suffer it as bad. I can understand that Falco is less so because Pikachu is uncommon, but Marth at the very least should be lower if you're going to nerf DK that hard.

Personally, I think DK belongs up with Lucario, ZSS, TLink and Pit, but I'm not sure WHERE within that group I would place him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm not sure how you can really still say King Dedede is better than ZSS Olimar or Pikachu, characters who have been shown to be capable of placing very well on their own at the national level. King Dedede might be capable of that, but the last time that occurred was at Winterfest last year. (CO18 is too good.) I think people tend to rate him highly based on pre-conceived notions or without thinking critically about his flaws, match-ups, and placement over the last year.

With that said, Dedede is of course a strong character with a lot of silly match-ups and has been used by many players as a pocket secondary this past year. We put other pocket secondaries into mid tier though, whereas King Dedede is currently one spot below characters like Wario and above characters like Pikachu, neither of which whom need secondaries to compete.

 

[humble]

Took your guys feedback and adjusted list accordingly, D3 is with the other staling characters, DK is moved up to upper mid tier. Any other suggestions or feedback?

 

[Raziek]

Actually, I'm inclined to agree with SFP. I'd overlooked that a bit.

I'd probably put him between ZSS and Tink.

 

[YagamiLight]

Ike is in no way, shape or form worse than Pokemon Trainer, Sheik, Wolf or Sonic.

Putting him a tier below them considering recent events seems like a mistake to me. All Ike did in humble's list was move above characters that either should never have been above him (Bowser) or characters who probably didn't deserve to move above him in v4 (Ness, Lucas [not hating on them, but did they have anything to show that they are better than Ike?]).