The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[Darxmarth23]

I say that the top five remain the same.

Then rob and marth switch places.

 

[PKNintendo]

I agree with most of ghebs points. But I would like to add that Ness will be moving up per see. Simply because he was ranked unproperly in the first place. Maybe low mid, but definetely higher than Lucas.

 

[Ryusuta]

Most MK match-up's aren't that hard, really. It's just that you can't even say "It's not that bad" because >9000 scrubs will jump and you and say nonononono MK is soo broken olololol.

I'd like to state that for the record I have never said anything of the sort. I'd hate to think that you were attacking my strawman here.

How exactly does Wolf go about fighting a cautious, non-spammy Meta Knight? Even disgardng his obvious off-stage weaknesses, what's he going to do? I'm not trying to give you crap, I'm asking a serious question, here. What does Wolf have that's going to hold off a Meta Knight onslaught?

 

[Teran]

Yeah... no. Wolf should DEFINITELY drop. It's not even a consideration.

Have you ever spent a match eating a million bairs? Have you ever been Wall of Wolf'd? (lol)

I think he's pretty solid, with a ridiculously safe approach and good camp options. I don't see him moving down personally.

 

[Ryusuta]

Yes. I'm not even intimidated by Wolf players online, and everyone pretty much agrees that online is Wolf's domain. He's not terrible, but he's just not that impressive.

 

[Myriazt]

Hmm... I'd expect Diddy to move to Top pretty soon...

I expected Ike to be higher than that, honestly. Olimar too.

Gah... So many characters I haven't played with/against enough to make a good judgment on.

I'll just wait and see what happens.

 

[Darknid]

Yeah Ike is pretty ridiculous, his attacks are very strong and also fast, so unlike other power brawlers he doesn't sacrifice speed. But he's so easy to shieldgrab though.. I main Bowser, and I used to have tons of problems with Ike, recently I've just never approached the guy and constantly shieldgrabbed him, and it helps. Also, Diddy Kong is great, but I don't know about top. His best weapons, the bananas, can be used against him and actually benefit other brawlers such as DK, Dedede, Bowser and Yoshi more than himself. Diddy Kong has a huge variety of other tricks up his sleeve but due to the usefulness of his bananas a lot of people overrate him. I also find that against Diddy, I live to high percentages if I avoid his spikes.

 

[Snowstalker]

The truth is that MK doesn't hard counter any character, who's currently high tier or higher.

R.O.B. would like to have a word with you.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its sorta weird looking at all these different points being brought up

but i will say something that doesnt really have anything to do with the topic at hand.

i think im going to start using fox to counter diddy as weird as that seems.

 

[Teran]

i think im going to start using fox to counter diddy as weird as that seems.

Not a bad idea, I'd personally recommend Falco (bias much?), but the spacies have the ability to shift the momentum against Diddy quickly and keep it that way. Again it's nice to see people pick up a spacie, especially the poor neglected vulpine.

 

[BibulousDan]

ugh, all mah chars are low XD

 

[~ Gheb ~]

R.O.B. would like to have a word with you.

It's 6/4 MKs favour. No hard counter.

 

[•Col•]

Yeah Ike is pretty ridiculous, his attacks are very strong and also fast, so unlike other power brawlers he doesn't sacrifice speed. But he's so easy to shieldgrab though.. I main Bowser, and I used to have tons of problems with Ike, recently I've just never approached the guy and constantly shieldgrabbed him, and it helps.

Ike cant be shieldgrabbed if he spaces correctly.

 

[YagamiLight]

Ike cant be shieldgrabbed if he spaces correctly.

*Unless you are playing an Olimar.

**And the Olimar has a White or Blue Pikmin next in line.

I think the only characters that can punish a Spaced Ike Fair are Olimar 2/6 times (Obviously this depends on the Pikmin sorting) and Sheik with a small, tiny Needle.

In any case I certainly expect Ike to go up, thanks to various combos that have been found and grab releases. Not to mention tourney wins.

 

[Darknid]

Ike cant be shieldgrabbed if he spaces correctly.

Easier said than done against someone who knows you're trying to, depending on Ike's opponent, plus almost all of his attacks can be dodged and punished. But this isn't to say that Ike isn't great or that it's easy to beat him.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lots of stuff can punish ike f-air

 

[B!ggad]

In any case I certainly expect Ike to go up, thanks to various combos that have been found and grab releases. Not to mention tourney wins.

Various combos? Enlighten me.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ike wins tourneys?

WTF?

 

[YagamiLight]

lots of stuff can punish ike f-air

Not using IASA frames. Using them, Ike can move at frame 22 after the hitbox ends. Factor in the large distance between Ike and the opponent, shield drop time and buffering and you've got quite a move.

Various combos? Enlighten me.

Nair to Jab was known before the tier list, so I'll leave that out.

Then you have stuff like Nair to Bair, Bthrow to Dash Attack (Using IASA frames), Jab 1 to Jab1 and then you can do a whole bunch of stuff that they have about one frame to escape from (Jab to Up Tilt, Dsmash, Standing Grab, Dash Grab) and some might not even have that one frame as it depends on jump height or whatnot. And this isn't even mentioning grab release stuff like, for example: Chaingrab on Squirtle that ends in a Walkoff Fair, Wario Grab Release to Ftilt(!), Edge Release to Walk-off Fair on Falco, Ganondorf. Just overall good stuff. Plus Grab release to Dash attack on a boatload of guys.

Ike wins tourneys?

WTF?

Kirk won one just recently, mind you.

 

[Umby]

Sounds like just one win to me.

 

[YagamiLight]

Sounds like just one win to me.

Allow me to correct myself then:

Ike has experienced better tourney placement on a whole as compared to pre-tier list times, including a win.

 

[Snowstalker]

And his matchups suck.

 

[Ryusuta]

Not as badly as you might think. I've seen some great Ike players, and a skilled Ike can hold his own quite well. As a Yoshi main, you should know better than to assume something like that.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Adding to the grab release mentions, out of the 21 tested characters, Ike currently has 27 grab releases, all proven with frame data.

Tournament result wise, just off the top of my head, Ike has gotten at least 2 top 8s, 2 top 4s, a 2nd place, and a win in the last 4-5 weeks. Seeing how little he is used, that's quite good. He's now past Luigi, and very likely to pass Toon Link.

Ike should not be suddenly dropping down. Max I can see him dropping down is one spot if Sheik has developed enough to pass him. He should be where he is right now in the next tier list.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Not as badly as you might think. I've seen some great Ike players, and a skilled Ike can hold his own quite well. As a Yoshi main, you should know better than to assume something like that.

A great X main could hold his own argument...

Ike is a poor character. Any match-up in which he has to approach (a hell of a lot of them) he gets flat out ***** in.

His tournament results are good though, there's no doubting that. However, tournament results alone can't determine how good a character is.

Sonic consistantly in the top 20 in Ankoku's results list for each season = 5th worst in the game.

Blatantly.

 

[Ryusuta]

A great X main could hold his own argument...

Ike is a poor character. Any match-up in which he has to approach (a hell of a lot of them) he gets flat out ***** in.

His tournament results are good though, there's no doubting that. However, tournament results alone can't determine how good a character is.

Way to not only not back up your arguments, but flat-out ADMIT that the numbers don't back you up. A real winner post, there.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike is a poor character. Any match-up in which he has to approach (a hell of a lot of them) he gets flat out ***** in.

Actually, he doesn't. Falco? Olimar? D3? Heck ya he does, but for other reasons combined with approaching. Mario? Luigi? Link? Fox? Zelda? Nope, all within the 4.5-5.5 to 5.5-4.5 range. Wolf? Only if 4-6 D is "flat out *****".

 

[gantrain05]

ike really isn't a "bad" character, personally tho, i find if you just play patient against him and wait for openings and punish, he's not really too bad, i guess the only really annoying thing about him is his jab, why would anyone have a jab like that ><

 

[ROOOOY!]

...

I said that good tournament results doesn't automatically make the character good.

???????

I didn't really understand your post, but you may be asking for reasons as to why Ike is bad.

Defensively, he's a good character. Jabs are fast and powerful, retreating fair is difficult to get around. On the offensive though, he has basically no options, which makes characters he's forced to approach (like..Falco or Snake, they can just camp him) tear him apart. Having fairly low ground and air speed doesn't help either, and other then nair he doesn't have any other viable options for approach.

I could talk about his poor recovery and vunerability of stage, but I'm hoping you have at least some knowledge on it. So what if Aether has super armor? Due to it's awful horizontal range, it's easy to force him far enough from the stage to make recovery with that not an option. This also leaves him at a disadvantage in a lot of match-ups against characters that have good edge-guarding games (Sonic, Marth, etc.) HOPEFULLY you know how dumb recovering with Quick Draw is, and that it's possibly the most gimpable thing in the whole game.


I didn't really post evidence before because it's mostly common sense. Guess I had to spell it out. >_>

 

[Browny]

thats just the thing... how do you play patiently and wait for openings when youre forced to approach, and almost every single attack is slower than the opponents?

 

[da K.I.D.]

WTF kirk won a tourney?

last i heard he pulled 4th place like 6 times in a row

 

[Deleted member]

Ike does well vs low tiers, and some high tiers that dont have projectiles. Double jump spaced fair is really a pain for a lot of characters.

Most characters cant gimp him, in theory hes gimpable, but he is actually very hard to gimp unless hes far offstage or youre meta knight. Its like olimar, except olimar almost never gets gimped ever.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its stupid hard to gimp any body in this game... cept link, hes not that hard.

 

[gantrain05]

its stupid hard to gimp any body in this game... cept link, hes not that hard.

don't forget about ivysaur ><

 

[Deleted member]

Ivysaur can be hard to gimp if he doesnt try to recover low, which is dumb.

 

[YagamiLight]

And his matchups suck.

Not really, they are pretty much even or close to it.

A great X main could hold his own argument...

Ike is a poor character. Any match-up in which he has to approach (a hell of a lot of them) he gets flat out ***** in.

His tournament results are good though, there's no doubting that. However, tournament results alone can't determine how good a character is.

Sonic consistantly in the top 20 in Ankoku's results list for each season = 5th worst in the game.

Blatantly.

Ike is basically in a sticky situation again Falco and Olimar when he is forced to approach, the rest aren't so bad.

thats just the thing... how do you play patiently and wait for openings when youre forced to approach, and almost every single attack is slower than the opponents?

Ike's area of preference is maxed Fair range, where he can hit them, they can't use a projectile or a normal attack back. If they get into the zone, he has an ultimate "GTFO" move, the best jab in the game.

Ike does well vs low tiers, and some high tiers that dont have projectiles. Double jump spaced fair is really a pain for a lot of characters.

Most characters cant gimp him, in theory hes gimpable, but he is actually very hard to gimp unless hes far offstage or youre meta knight. Its like olimar, except olimar almost never gets gimped ever.

You basically identified the main issue with Ike, it's similar to what happens with Marth and Meta Knight. They all do well versus the low tier, and **** the characters that already suck. Difference is, MK has a bit of an edge on everyone, Marth goes even with everyone while Ike does the same yet has a few issue match-ups.

Theorywise Ike should be gimpable, as you say. Harder than it looks.

 

[DTP]

Ok so when I see people talk about the tier list I only see them talk about who deserves to go up.

But I want to know who deserves to go down. I don't think I've even seen this being discussed yet.

I was going to make a thread on this but I never know if those kinds of threads would be locked or not....

 

[Nestec]

Lucas needs to go down. Below Ness. ;P

 

[Judge Judy]

Ok so when I see people talk about the tier list I only see them talk about who deserves to go up.

But I want to know who deserves to go down. I don't think I've even seen this being discussed yet.

I was going to make a thread on this but I never know if those kinds of threads would be locked or not....

People have discussed Wolf and Fox going down, not much else though. I guess Snake and R.O.B. have been talked about moving down too but IDK.

 

[Bowser King]

Actually, he doesn't. Falco? Olimar? D3? Heck ya he does, but for other reasons combined with approaching. Mario? Luigi? Link? Fox? Zelda? Nope, all within the 4.5-5.5 to 5.5-4.5 range. Wolf? Only if 4-6 D is "flat out *****".

Using a certain character boards idea of the match-up is definitely not a smart idea. I'm not saying the Ike boards are biased but a majority of them are (with some actually discussing it fairly).

I'm pretty sure if you went to the fox, zelda, falco ect. boards the match-ups would be far worse for ike.

-Bowser King