The problem with Brawl: It's Community

[Sliq]

multi-talented razor-sharp tongue

 

[Yuna]

Now, now, brown cow. Let's remember that we're on the same side here, fighting the Abonimable Stupidity. Also, I could start using my hands more if you'd prefer that.

 

[Sliq]

Now, now, brown cow. Let's remember that we're on the same side here, fighting the Abonimable Stupidity. Also, I could start using my hands more if you'd prefer that.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

This thread is messed up, anyone want to cut it off? It makes my jacket look bad.

Anyway, as cheap as I think chain grabs are, go ahead and do them.
I try to be chivalrous, but I won't lose over it, I didn't get into discussing tactics, techniques and stuff here to play casually, I will respect my opponent, but I won't lose over something like refraining from using my grab or my B button.

 

[Leahdybug]

I never said playing to win made you arrogant I sad some people who play to win there attitudes arnt the greatest. Yeah my typing sucks as but its not important to me. You dont have to overexaggerate silly. its not chivalry its called respect and good beavhior... You choose to use it or not, so chillax dude.

 

[Leahdybug]

To add to that, newer members are seen as less intelligent about the subject of Smash by older members because if they were really interesting in getting to know Smash, asking questions and inputting their info, they would have known about AND already have been a part of Smashboards. Anyone who is a true competitive player knows about Smashboards and is an active member of it, or was at some point if they quit playing.

The fact that someone didn't join until 2008 tells everyone else that the peron either:

A. Lurked around to check things out for a while but never got into Smash enough to post their own input or thoughts on things.

B. Actually ARE new to Smash and obviously do not have the knowledge an older member might.

C. Just jumped on the Brawl bandwagon. Maybe they played Melee casually but were never interested in getting good until they could get a fresh start with Brawl, and since they were casual players before are figured to be less intelligent than an older member who is likely competitive or at least interested enough in the game to state their opinions or input.

Most pro Melee players have had accounts here since probaly 2004, maybe '05, and many even before that. Anyone who is good at Brawl was PROBABLY good at Melee because they have the experience of a Smash game. The game may be completely different feeling, but it still helps to have Smash experience, especially in terms of knowing lingo and techniques.

Also, if you are a lurker people will not respect your knowledge. I get the feeling people don't understand that lurking is looked down upon in a grand sense of knowledge of the forum they are lurking.

Why is status so important..? Why should I be looked down on because you dont think its correct behavior in the community?

 

[Leahdybug]

Just post and be wrong. People will correct you, you'll learn more about the game, and you'll have a higher post count on top of that.

And to Leahdybug about not getting through the scrub portion, LOL! Sirlin is probably the person who puts it the most nicely out of anyone I've ever seen talk about playing to win. If you can't make it through that article, then you're a scrub and the type of scrub that shouldn't bother playing competitively. Not the type of scrub that will learn what they're doing wrong and change.

See what I mean proven. I dont have to act like that to another person, yet I still do what the people do in this community.I ask questions I learn and I adapt but i also keep a good attitude when I do it. i dont need to read an article to defin my habits plus you more then likely to spout it off for me.

 

[Kio Iranez]

Why is status so important..? Why should I be looked down on because you dont think its correct behavior in the community?

We don't look down upon you for having a low post count/recent join date. We look down upon you for your stupid posts.

That goes for me, too. These details aren't the deciding factors, but if you do make a stupid post, low post count and recent join date are a good explanation for it. It's better than having a high post count/old join date and posting something stupid. Then you're to blame.

 

[Kio Iranez]

i dont need to read an article to defin my habits plus you more then likely to spout it off for me.

I don't need to make an honest living to make money, but we all know where that leads.

 

[Yuna]

I never said playing to win made you arrogant I sad some people who play to win there attitudes arnt the greatest. Yeah my typing sucks as but its not important to me. You dont have to overexaggerate silly. its not chivalry its called respect and good beavhior... You choose to use it or not, so chillax dude.

"Some people"... well, some white guys **** people. Must mean we should blame all or at least most white guys for the ***** out there in the world, right? There are idiots of all sexes, creeds and colours. Don't whine about how "some" people are idiots and then blanket them up with a huge group of people, insulting tons of innocents in the process.

Why is status so important..? Why should I be looked down on because you dont think its correct behavior in the community?

It's not a question of status. It's a question of us disliking stupidity.

See what I mean proven. I dont have to act like that to another person, yet I still do what the people do in this community.I ask questions I learn and I adapt but i also keep a good attitude when I do it. i dont need to read an article to defin my habits plus you more then likely to spout it off for me.

Why did you dislike Sirlin's article on Playing to Win so much? He was actually pretty nice in it. Are you a person who whines when people utilize "cheap" tactics and thus on the receiving end of his perfectly mild trashing? No? Then why?

Don't double post and also, don't be a cow.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

It was region-based. Some regions banned it, some didn't. The Smash Back Room eventually unbanned it universally, though.

But Brawl is a different game. A one-hit-into-infinite combo is now worth tons more than in Melee because of how the game engine's changed and how we'll looking at 3 stocks instead of 4.

And yet nobody seems to care about poor Ness and Lucas. They're all too busy slinging around the "it's to hard to enforce, blaaah lazy" bull.

Brawl is OUR game. If we can make up rules to stop Jigglypuff pound-stalling the match away, we can very well make up rules to allow Ness and Lucas to compete. They are both perfectly good characters, and two of the funnest and most versatile fighters in the game. I don't see how it would be too hard to ban broken chain throws or even impose a limit to them. Even without the repeated grab, Ness and Lucas will still be open to many smash attacks and tilts after a forced break-out. That is a disadvantage they can work with, but this infinite beat-up of death is just too cheap.

A chain grab like Falco's or Lucario's isn't nearly as bad, and tactics like that should be considered and allowed depending on character.

 

[Leahdybug]

"Some people"... well, some white guys **** people. Must mean we should blame all or at least most white guys for the ***** out there in the world, right? There are idiots of all sexes, creeds and colours. Don't whine about how "some" people are idiots and then blanket them up with a huge group of people, insulting tons of innocents in the process..

-Your right Yuna im not whinning becuase I handle my business. Im not blamming anyone everyone is different. i never did that you interpreted me wrong but i can see how you would think that.


It's not a question of status. It's a question of us disliking stupidity.


-Ok


Why did you dislike Sirlin's article on Playing to Win so much? He was actually pretty nice in it. Are you a person who whines when people utilize "cheap" tactics and thus on the receiving end of his perfectly mild trashing? No? Then why?

-I dont whine I dela with what I get because I understand. Ive never said anything was a cheap tactic.Seems like alot of assuming on your part. You think differently them me , it sounded like that article was just talking crap. Your right though i didnt finish it so maybe its not.

-Sorry for the double posts

Don't double post and also, don't be a cow

-No need for that.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I am a play to win kind of guy, not only in Smash Bros. but in Tae Kwon Do as well and I will do anything to win (WITHIN TOURNAMENT RULES, and no further, I will play to win, but never, ever, cheat to win), and if something is truly broken (e.x. Jigglypuff's infinite stall) then it will be banned. But if something is not banned, it means that there are ways around it, and that it doesn't determine the outcome of the entire match. For all we know Smash Backrooms could be debating whether or not to ban the infinite release grab from tournaments right now (although Yuna probably knows more about this than me). And when they do make their decision it will probably be informed and thought out, but until a decision is made to ban it, I am going to use it whenever is advantageous.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

swampfox read this and shut the **** up

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm
*edit*
oops rebel beat me to it

 

[Darkurai]

I'm disappointed that this thread has lasted as long as it has.
SUPER SMASH BROS. BRAWL IS A VIDEO GAME.
There is no "honor", "cheap tactics", or anything else on the line. Your ability to play is based heavily on what you're willing to do. When there's money on the line, I'm not going to hold back to be "fair". I'm going to give it my all.
And when I'm playing casually? I'll give it my all there too. Why? Because it's a game. If your feelings are hurt because I beat you, then tough ****. If you want to be honorable, good luck with that, Skippy. It's a game. I will never feel bad for giving it my all.

 

[hornysax]

Looks like Sakurai started this thread to turn SmashBoards into SmashBoardsBrawl.

(i.e., dumbed down for noobs.)

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I'm disappointed that this thread has lasted as long as it has.
SUPER SMASH BROS. BRAWL IS A VIDEO GAME.
There is no "honor", "cheap tactics", or anything else on the line. Your ability to play is based heavily on what you're willing to do. When there's money on the line, I'm not going to hold back to be "fair". I'm going to give it my all.
And when I'm playing casually? I'll give it my all there too. Why? Because it's a game. If your feelings are hurt because I beat you, then tough ****. If you want to be honorable, good luck with that, Skippy. It's a game. I will never feel bad for giving it my all.

Most games are made so that everyone has a fair chance. When a flaw in a game is discovered, the rules are usually changed to reflect that. This game can't have its rules changed as far as code goes any more, so it's up to the players to change the rules now. You can play a game the way it comes, or you can modify it to make it better. I know which one I'd choose.

 

[kamekasu]

I think this 'join date' business is funny. I've played Smash competitively for... about 2 years, but I lost my old account and was forced to make a new one after a few months of inactivity. xD

I dont whine I dela with what I get because I understand. Ive never said anything was a cheap tactic.Seems like alot of assuming on your part. You think differently them me , it sounded like that article was just talking crap. Your right though i didnt finish it so maybe its not.

The article wasn't 'talking crap.' Dave Sirlin is one of the people who is most knowledgeable about competitive fighting games. Not only is he helping to develop the new Street Fighter II, but he played Super Turbo competitively for many years. If you finished the article, you'd understand that there is a difference between scrubs who think the most advantageous techniques are 'cheap,' and legitimate competitive players who will utilize and adapt to 'cheap' tactics. The articles give a number of empirical examples to help you to understand competitive fighting games.

 

[Rebel581]

-I dont whine I dela with what I get because I understand. Ive never said anything was a cheap tactic.Seems like alot of assuming on your part. You think differently them me , it sounded like that article was just talking crap. Your right though i didnt finish it so maybe its not.

Read his articles. Sirlin understands game design, possibly better than Sakurai.

 

[Leahdybug]

Alright I'll read it through then.

 

[Yuna]

Read his articles. Sirlin understands game design, possibly better than Sakurai.

"Possibly"?

 

[Leahdybug]

Yup you were right, even at the end he goes on to explain that hes not talking down to scrubs hes simply explaing how one does simply not know how to play on a competitive level.

 

[Mazaloth]

I'll get right to the point. I've been around these and others boards for some time now and have to say that the worst thing about Brawl, hands down, is you guys, me, the fan base. Now my gripe isn't the fact that most of us are jerks.. but most of us ARE jerks. I mean look at us..instead of helping newcomers, the majority of the time folks tell them they suck and to get better..well that's hardly a big issue but...
I also find it rather disturbing that the majority of the Smash community has this sort of ignorant "Play to win" mentality. This has been popping up more recently as of late because of in game finds that deem certain character's unusable in certain match ups or situations, and the community rather than trying to think of positive feedback or ways to help tend to reply with blunt, lackluster responses. It seems that a lot of the people who play Brawl are the type who enjoy exploitation in any way possible, and have no problem whatsoever in taking advantage of cheap tactics (always claiming that they play to win). So what is it that causes this community to act like a bunch of bratty kids, who only care about themselves and rarely about the game they play?
Now of course not everyone falls under this category, but most of you do. Don't you think that a better attitude towards making the game more enjoyable for everyone could help? Or should the Smash community remain how it is for the most part,Playing the role of the elitist whenever possible, and doing whatever it takes to win?

This is not directed at any individuals, and I don't mean to try to start a flame-war or to troll..but I can only read so much crap before I stop and think about the majority of the people who play this game.. and how much better it could likely be if we didn't all suck so much.

Man, play Gunz and THEN tell me about how bad the smash community is.
Smash is like a Utopia compared to that game.
Freakkin' K/d-stylers....

 

[Yukiwarashi]

And yet nobody seems to care about poor Ness and Lucas. They're all too busy slinging around the "it's to hard to enforce, blaaah lazy" bull.

Brawl is OUR game. If we can make up rules to stop Jigglypuff pound-stalling the match away, we can very well make up rules to allow Ness and Lucas to compete. They are both perfectly good characters, and two of the funnest and most versatile fighters in the game. I don't see how it would be too hard to ban broken chain throws or even impose a limit to them. Even without the repeated grab, Ness and Lucas will still be open to many smash attacks and tilts after a forced break-out. That is a disadvantage they can work with, but this infinite beat-up of death is just too cheap.

A chain grab like Falco's or Lucario's isn't nearly as bad, and tactics like that should be considered and allowed depending on character.

I feel bad for you, I really do. But there's a major problem with banning this. For example...let's say someone does the chain throw the certain amount of times it's allowed. Then they do another attack or two, and they go back to doing it again. You can't really argue against it, can you? They did use other attacks before chain throwing you again, and they can keep alternating like that. So it really does seem difficult to ban this sort of thing. =/

 

[SynikaL]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, this has got to be the most combustible logic derived from a very promising premise on the internet...

Ever.

Quite disappointing.

The video game community at large is quite pathetic. Video game culture houses a base level of maturity; from the development teams, runs rampant throughout its journalism and trickles down into the segmented consumer populations (communities like this one). This lack of maturity manifests itself in the actual products (Bioshock = Art? No.). This is something that will likely never change during my generation, for various reasons.

But hey, that's just one man's opinion.

More in focus, the Smash community is younger than a lot of video game communities (the competitive off-shoot in particular), so that base level of maturity is more likely to produce acts and sentiments of immaturity. Some people may never understand "playing to win" and the Brawl vs Melee situation very much may never be settled in this community because of its lack thereof (more specifically, I believe it to be "humility", which typically tends to take its root in maturing peoples).

Bottom line, is that its an innate quality of Smashboards' existence, so you're going to have to deal with it.


-Kye

 

[optimusprimm]

"The majority" you say? In what parallel universe?

I will only tell someone they suck if they obviously suck but think they're the ****.


I'm sorry, what? "Positive feedback"? "Ways to help"? Ways to help what? With overcoming insurmountable odds in a matchup that's clearly 10-0 or something like that?

Excuse me for not setting out on a fool's errand to try to find ways to make obvious Bottom Tier characters viable in tournament play.


And this is where it becomes painfully obvious you're a scrub.

You have a problem with the community because many of us like to Play to Win and will do anything (that's not banned) in order to do so? Well, welcome to the world of Competitive Gaming. Pick a community, any community and you'll be seeing more of the exact same thing... in spades.

I'd caution you against taking up any game with a Competitive scene because they're all like this (woe is you!).

What's so wrong with playing to win? What's so wrong with not handicapping ourselves but not using legit strategies and techniques because, apparently, you deem them "cheap"? Who are you to dictate what's cheap and what's not, anyway?


How are we not caring about the game we play by playing to win? Is Brawl some kind of Special Case where we need to play it "the way Sakurai wants us to play it" (because apparently he's some kind of deity)?


I don't care about what makes the game more enjoyable to you. The fact that I edgeguard should in no way make Brawl less enjoyable to you as long as we never go up against each other.

It's not my responsibility to change the way I play so that people like you can like Brawl better because, apparently, the mere existence of players like me are degenerating your enjoyment of the game.

Don't like the way some people play? Don't play against them.


Yes, Smashboards would indeed be much better if you didn't suck so much.

Don't be a scrub. Play the game whatever way you want to. Don't whine when others play it in different ways.


I present to you: Swampfox.

Congratulations! You are living proof of this fellow's example. Rather than constructively disagreeing or anything even moderately amiable, you tear him to pieces. ~85% of this community is the same way. Ironic that you tried so hard to disagree with him, and ultimately ended up proving him right. I salute you.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

can wwe please just close this thread. Its pointless to argue with scrubs much more efficient to just let them be. A scrub is always a scrub no matter how hard they try justify themselves.

Peace out to all my fellow figthing game players, im not posting here anymore

 

[orintemple]

The thread is 8 pages long, it won't get closed.

As for the topic:
You ever hear the term "nice guys finish last"?

Yea that applies in Smash to the same degree it applies to in life. There is the occasional time when someone with honor and caring gets to the top, but it is usually the people who are ****ing everyone in the *** metaphorically who are the ones who climb the highest up the social and economic ladder.

Competitive gaming is not meant for sensitive people.

 

[Osi]

This community is by far the most helpful one outside of ffxi I have ever been a part of. People are always willing to help, and give a honest answer. I can't really see where the OP is coming from....

Maybe you have just run into a rare jerk, but even then if you have been around a while I'm sure you would notice even the more brutal long term members of the community are still really cool. Did you maybe talk badly to a few and build a grudge or something? Right now I know of 2 smashers training new people in my area, and they seem to be the norm. Just helpful people that love to play. The so called play to win mentality you are talking about is simply the fact when someone invests thousands of hours into a game they generally are trying to win. Anything in game is fair to use until banned, there are no cheap tactics. Any player can choose the same character and exploit the same thing.... it's not like we're on seperate modded consoles or anything. Even when something is deemed too broken like the wobble from melee it is banned, like items and stages with walkoff edges.

People invest hours into making faq pages and in depth discussions on here to simply progress the brawl scene. That's definatly not something a bunch of jerks do.

 

[SwampFox]

can wwe please just close this thread. Its pointless to argue with scrubs much more efficient to just let them be. A scrub is always a scrub no matter how hard they try justify themselves.

Peace out to all my fellow figthing game players, im not posting here anymore

I think that your inability to reasonably, or intelligently defend your point is a sad sight indeed. But please don't go spouting off about how a thread should be closed simply because you disagree with it. Learn to cope with other people, nothing in life is spoon fed to you, so let's grow up a little bit.

If a scrub was always a scrub then no one would be considered good or elite, because that is where we all start. But why am I explaining this to you? Since you're obviously well-learnt in the habits of scrubs.

 

[SynikaL]

If a scrub was always a scrub then no one would be considered good or elite, because that is where we all start.

And there lies your personal malfunction within the competitive system: you can't make the necessary distinction between a newbie and a scrub.

I'll let the kids take it from here.


-Kimo

 

[Lord Aether]

I'm technically a kid since I'm new so

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/introducing-the-scrub/

(yeah I've been reading sirlin before signing up; I find it can apply when you're a competitive pokemon player)

 

[SwampFox]

Aren't you just so witty and sharp, maybe you should go read up some, rather than trying to show off in front of the "kids".

 

[flyinfilipino]

Aren't you just so witty and sharp, maybe you should go read up some, rather than trying to show off in front of the "kids".

And then some people just take everything personally.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Ya know, I respect those who give out negative criticism. It fills you with WAY more desire to get better than the sugar-coated answer.

And if people pick X character simply because they are the best character, then you know what? They will eventually come to dislike the game because they may or may not be playing someone they actually like and WANT to play. This kind of situation, where a person picks a character simply because they are a good character, does not exist, really. Why did I pick up Marth in Melee? Because I thought he was awesome. And it is because of that that I was, at one point, the best smasher in NM, and easily among the top ten in the four corners region. Not because he was a great character, but because I loved playing as him, it was fun. There is a delicate balance between playing and having fun and playing competitively. Often times, one may find that people who do better competitively are ones who really enjoy playing the game(and their character) competitively.

Besides, these types of tactics eventually wear even on the user, and they will end up using them less and less. Sakurai has put many, many more infinites in this game, but some are not. In melee, Marth could chain-grab lots of people. In this game, so can Falco. So what if people use it. If you get caught in it, then that means that you must work harder at avoiding it. It is a competitive aspect of the game. If you do not enjoy winning, then don't use these types of tactics.

There are, it seems, quite a few people in here who seem to speak only in caveman. It is not difficult to explain the nature of a video game. If you are on Smashboards, then chances are you're competitive about Smash. Those who play simply to win are idiots, because they will NEVER win. You may win a million scrub tournaments, but that really doesn't take any explanation why. Once you go to the pro level, you're gonna get screwed. If you do not enjoy playing the game, then why play it at all? If you do not enjoy playing the game, you probably will not win, hence the idiots. Those who play the game competitively but who also have fun playing at that level are the ones who will continually win. Naturally one may get into it and lose their temper if they lose, etc. etc., but this adds to the competitive aspect of the game. Those who play the game simply for fun do not belong in a competitive community. Again, the delicate balance of playing for fun and for competitiveness is blurred.

 

[Darkurai]

My "just a game" point still stands.

 

[orintemple]

I'm technically a kid since I'm new so

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/introducing-the-scrub/

(yeah I've been reading sirlin before signing up; I find it can apply when you're a competitive pokemon player)

That is because "playing to win" applies to all competitive gaming, not just Smash.

Ya know, I respect those who give out negative criticism. It fills you with WAY more desire to get better than the sugar-coated answer.

And if people pick X character simply because they are the best character, then you know what? They will eventually come to dislike the game because they may or may not be playing someone they actually like and WANT to play. This kind of situation, where a person picks a character simply because they are a good character, does not exist, really. Why did I pick up Marth in Melee? Because I thought he was awesome. And it is because of that that I was, at one point, the best smasher in NM, and easily among the top ten in the four corners region. Not because he was a great character, but because I loved playing as him, it was fun. There is a delicate balance between playing and having fun and playing competitively. Often times, one may find that people who do better competitively are ones who really enjoy playing the game(and their character) competitively.

Besides, these types of tactics eventually wear even on the user, and they will end up using them less and less. Sakurai has put many, many more infinites in this game, but some are not. In melee, Marth could chain-grab lots of people. In this game, so can Falco. So what if people use it. If you get caught in it, then that means that you must work harder at avoiding it. It is a competitive aspect of the game. If you do not enjoy winning, then don't use these types of tactics.

There are, it seems, quite a few people in here who seem to speak only in caveman. It is not difficult to explain the nature of a video game. If you are on Smashboards, then chances are you're competitive about Smash. Those who play simply to win are idiots, because they will NEVER win. You may win a million scrub tournaments, but that really doesn't take any explanation why. Once you go to the pro level, you're gonna get screwed. If you do not enjoy playing the game, then why play it at all? If you do not enjoy playing the game, you probably will not win, hence the idiots. Those who play the game competitively but who also have fun playing at that level are the ones who will continually win. Naturally one may get into it and lose their temper if they lose, etc. etc., but this adds to the competitive aspect of the game. Those who play the game simply for fun do not belong in a competitive community. Again, the delicate balance of playing for fun and for competitiveness is blurred.

This is a confusing statement. You believe that one should use infinites and learn to avoid them, but you think playing to win is dumb? It is like you are agreeing and disagreeing with both sides at the same time.

Having a "play to win" attitude doesn't mean you play ONLY to win and you don't enjoy the game. I thoroughly enjoy playing Smash AND I play to win. I never let reservations of "honor" or "cheapness" stop me from winning. I will CG and infinite in order to ensure my victory as long as it is not banned. If I am playing for something I want, be it money, prizes, or even just pride, then I will do what it takes to win. If someone tries to break your pride about your win because they think you were "cheap" then they are just scrubs.

Now, I believe it is not necessary to play to win ALL the time. In a friendly, where the purpose is ONLY fun and experimentation, it is not necessary to go your all, but in a REAL fight, playing to win is where its at.

Now I agree that if you are ONLY playing to win and you DO NOT enjoy the game, then why bother playing. There is no point in playing something you don't like. But then again I don't think a person who purposely places themselves into the competitive scene, and puts all of that time and effort into the game, is going to not like it.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

That is because "playing to win" applies to all competitive gaming, not just Smash.



This is a confusing statement. You believe that one should use infinites and learn to avoid them, but you think playing to win is dumb? It is like you are agreeing and disagreeing with both sides at the same time.

Having a "play to win" attitude doesn't mean you play ONLY to win and you don't enjoy the game. I thoroughly enjoy playing Smash AND I play to win. I never let reservations of "honor" or "cheapness" stop me from winning. I will CG and infinite in order to ensure my victory as long as it is not banned. If I am playing for something I want, be it money, prizes, or even just pride, then I will do what it takes to win. If someone tries to break your pride about your win because they think you were "cheap" then they are just scrubs.

Now, I believe it is not necessary to play to win ALL the time. In a friendly, where the purpose is ONLY fun and experimentation, it is not necessary to go your all, but in a REAL fight, playing to win is where its at.

Now I agree that if you are ONLY playing to win and you DO NOT enjoy the game, then why bother playing. There is no point in playing something you don't like. But then again I don't think a person who purposely places themselves into the competitive scene, and puts all of that time and effort into the game, is going to not like it.

Yea...I thought about editing that part of my post, but I'm too lazy. It'll just have to stay contradictory. And just to clear it up, I mean that infinites should not be allowed, as they require no skill even for scrubs, but if someone is doing something like a chain-grab on you, something that lasts a long time, then it is your own fault for getting caught in it. Deal with it how you may, but the truth is you must learn to avoid them, not blame them for your loss. And the play to win is dumb part...well, read my post. If one plays ONLY to win, then there is no point playing the game. To play to win must come with having fun with it, or at least a desire to enjoy what they are doing.

I know what the play to win attitude is. I have it myself. And you have basically restated everything I have said earlier. Of course they are scrubs if they think you win by cheap tactics, there is no such thing as a cheap tactic in this game. If you really believe that, then like I said earlier, you do not belong in the competitive smash scene. I love playing smash and I also play to win. That is how to play competitively and enjoy it at the same time. And in friendlies, I do not necessarily play to win, hence the word friendly. In a tournament or money match or whatever it may be that is termed a 'real fight,' then if you do not play to win you are an idiot. Or you're just johning after you lose. Again, you do not belong on the competitive smash scene. But you cannot be there if you do not like the competition in the first place, which is what you said in the last part of your post. Which is why if people play a character only to win with them, they will eventually get bored of that character, because they no longer find it fun.

 

[orintemple]

Yea...I thought about editing that part of my post, but I'm too lazy. It'll just have to stay contradictory.

I know what the play to win attitude is. I have it myself. And you have basically restated everything I have said earlier. Of course they are scrubs if they think you win by cheap tactics, there is no such thing as a cheap tactic in this game. If you really believe that, then like I said earlier, you do not belong in the competitive smash scene. I love playing smash and I also play to win. That is how to play competitively and enjoy it at the same time. And in friendlies, I do not necessarily play to win, hence the word friendly. In a tournament or money match or whatever it may be that is termed a 'real fight,' then if you do not play to win you are an idiot. Or you're just johning after you lose. Again, you do not belong on the competitive smash scene. But you cannot be there if you do not like the competition in the first place, which is what you said in the last part of your post. Which is why if people play a character only to win with them, they will eventually get bored of that character, because they no longer find it fun.

I agree with you 100% If you ONLY play a character because it will make you win, and have no desire to play that character, it defeats the purpose of playing them. You need to like what you are doing to go full force with it.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

But competitive play is only really competitive if it's fair. You can play to win, but most games are built around the concept that the competition should be as unbiased as possible for each competitor.

All we have to do is weed out this one measly chain grab, and bam! Two characters are playable, giving more options for competitive play, and everyone is happy.