Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[Scoliosis Jones]

Has there been a definitive time for when we'll start getting more updates? I'm being an impatient brat

 

[Starcutter]

If you're planning on making the size argument, Bowser's in the same boat. Head and all.

not to mention K. Rool is as well. have you SEEN his size in DK64?

 

[Erimir]

Ridley does look strange in this video, though ofcourse it is not official or anything. I'm really pulling for Ridley as a playable character. Nintendo, as well as Retro, understand how strong of a clamoring there is for a new Metroid game on the Wii U. Bowser is in smash, Ganon is in smash, K Rool will probably be in smash, and Ridley should be too. It is only right to match the famous heroes with their rivals.

To be honest, after seeing this I feel that the "Too big!" crowd would feel just as strongly, if not more.

He does look a bit odd there. He does look too small. He actually could be a little bit larger than that using the same design, but still.

Partly this could be fixed by making him a little larger AND making him walk (since having him fly all the time increases his height, so if he walked, he could be larger).

He would also need a different design overall I think. His body proportions would need to be adjusted. Obviously they could make him look something like he did in the Melee opening.

I don't buy the "Too big!" argument but they do have a point in one sense. You can't just shrink Ridley down. While I think he's still quite doable, he would require more thought to be put into his design than many of the other characters. And that IS a point against him.

But obviously with inclusions like the Ice Climbers and Pokemon Trainer and Olimar, Sakurai is willing to put in characters that require a lot more processing power and/or more development work than others. So while he has pretty good chances of getting in, we shouldn't be shocked if it doesn't happen.

 

[Mr Lange]

If you're planning on making the size argument, Bowser's in the same boat. Head and all.

See I knew people weren't even reading what I was writing.

 

[Hippopotasauce]

Honestly I don't think any other newcomer would give off a crowd reaction quite as huge.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Ahhh...i see this threads going back to hell....

 

[Hippopotasauce]

Ahhh...i see this threads going back to hell....

Repeating patterns tend to occur in threads this large.

 

[Phaazoid]

Hmmmm thats a really cool point - Holy **** Ismar is s girl! Damn gotta act cool

Don't be silly. There are no girls on the internet.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

See I knew people weren't even reading what I was writing.

When you've been reading anti-Ridley messages for nearly a decade like me it becomes quite tiring. So by now I just skip the posts of whoever I know is an anti-Ridley guy in this thread. It's becoming a worn out cliché that I personally can't bother arguing for anymore, since I've made my point so many times. I'm sure I'm not the only one around here to feel like that. As I've said continuously in this thread, just look through some of the pages and just about any counter argument has already been smashed.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

That. ^

And samusrules, your photobucket bandwidth is exceeded.

 

[grizby2]

that video is very interesting, but I cant help the fact that ridley just looked...awkward.

but theres something about that crouching fire ball barrage that I really like.

 

[Anomilus]

To be honest, after seeing this I feel that the "Too big!" crowd would feel just as strongly, if not more.

He does look a bit odd there. He does look too small. He actually could be a little bit larger than that using the same design, but still.

Partly this could be fixed by making him a little larger AND making him walk (since having him fly all the time increases his height, so if he walked, he could be larger).

He would also need a different design overall I think. His body proportions would need to be adjusted. Obviously they could make him look something like he did in the Melee opening.

I don't buy the "Too big!" argument but they do have a point in one sense. You can't just shrink Ridley down. While I think he's still quite doable, he would require more thought to be put into his design than many of the other characters. And that IS a point against him.

But obviously with inclusions like the Ice Climbers and Pokemon Trainer and Olimar, Sakurai is willing to put in characters that require a lot more processing power and/or more development work than others. So while he has pretty good chances of getting in, we shouldn't be shocked if it doesn't happen.

You're absolutely right to be concerned about that video. It's honestly not a great example of a playable Ridley. It's literally as big as Samus - possibly smaller. It's neck is also bent the wrong way. Ridley's neck is pretty much broken.

Indeed you can't just take Brawl Ridley's model, scale it down, and call it a day. Makes me wish I had the tools and the time to put together a workable Ridley model.

Charizard went from Pokeball Pokemon to playable. He was a first gen pokemon, along with squirtle and Ivysaur, and he got put in the game during the fourth gen, of all things. Don't count Ridley out yet.

Just warning you, but the counterargument to this is that there can exist many different Charizard and their heights can vary. You bring up the discrepancies between Pokeball Charizard and PT Charizard, and people will bring up the idea that it's just a different Charizard. Then they'll add that Ridley is the same Ridley in nearly every game, so having a size discrepancy would make far less sense.

Not say I agree with the argument, because I don't. Neither the Smash series or even the Pokemon games makes any sort of distinction regarding sizes between Charizard. At best, the pokemon games have had occasional situations where two seemingly equal pokemon were determined as different by something other than battle statistics.

Regardless, Charizard is simply Charizard in the Smash games. He was first a pokeball Pokemon, then he was playable. That's all there is. As an argument against Ridley's odds, it's very weak as it depends on a factor that's only be acknowledged in the Pokemon anime. The Smash games have taken very few ideas from the Pokemon anime, at most having some trophies that visually referenced the show.

 

[Erimir]

Yeah, it does seem as if they'd need to come up with a design for Ridley's look that has never appeared in any of the games themselves. Whereas Samus's design is pretty faithful to her in-game appearances.

I think it would have to be an amalgamation of what he's looked like in the games and various artwork with some tweaks. Personally, I think the Super Metroid box cover provides a good starting point for such a design:

The super lanky Ridley doesn't work very well at the size he'd have to be in Smash. But the way he looks in the artwork for Super Metroid is actually just about where he needs to be in terms of scale and proportions. Make him purple, tweak it to reflect his appearance in some of the other games (just... don't use the head from The Other M), and it's looking pretty good.

One advantage also is that using a design based more on Super Metroid is that only the first three Metroid games were very popular in Japan (relative to population, they sold better in Japan than in the US).

 

[Mr Lange]

When you've been reading anti-Ridley messages for nearly a decade like me it becomes quite tiring. So by now I just skip the posts of whoever I know is an anti-Ridley guy in this thread. It's becoming a worn out cliché that I personally can't bother arguing for anymore, since I've made my point so many times. I'm sure I'm not the only one around here to feel like that. As I've said continuously in this thread, just look through some of the pages and just about any counter argument has already been smashed.

I have read through a lot of these pages, and not only have the arguments not been "smashed" they just skirt around each other. Everyone here in favor of Ridley completely abstains from any good logic that indicates he would not be in the game. The arguments favoring Ridley completely ignore everything that is brought up, as the person then repeats their argument and acts like they just made a touchdown and usually throws in a stupid insult for good measure. Whenever someone makes a counterpoint to mine, I make a relevant argument considering everything they said, which is then ignored and I get flamed. Then I get accused of ignoring them, along with being a "Ridley hater", which I am not.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Don't be silly. There are no girls on the internet.

Oww about to say...(-_-) you scared the sheet outta me...Real...naa thats not true...

 

[RadRedi]

I remember, back when Brawl was still the thing, and then in the revival of roster speculation when SSB4 was announced a year or so ago, I was always bent against Ridley being playable. Sure, I thought it would be cool to play as Ridley, but he was one of two characters that I saw never working in SSB (for reasons everyone here is used to). The other character I was nearly against was an Animal Crossing rep because even Sakurai saw the franchise too peaceful to put in a fighting game.

Look how that turned out.

And THEN, we got Wii Fit Trainer, who no one wanted, or even THOUGHT OF, and yet, she appears to be very well-received.

I feel like Ridley, a character who Sakurai has said could be possible, can get in if Villager, a character who Sakurai basically denied, was the first Sm4sh newcomer announced.

That's what I have to say about that.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I have read through a lot of these pages, and not only have the arguments not been "smashed" they just skirt around each other. Everyone here in favor of Ridley completely abstains from any good logic that indicates he would not be in the game. The arguments favoring Ridley completely ignore everything that is brought up, as the person then repeats their argument and acts like they just made a touchdown and usually throws in a stupid insult for good measure. Whenever someone makes a counterpoint to mine, I make a relevant argument considering everything they said, which is then ignored and I get flamed. Then I get accused of ignoring them, along with being a "Ridley hater", which I am not.

Of course people ignore you. After 124 pages of supporters just trying to like the character they like and 124 pages of random people coming in here to feel like they're "right" on the internet by bringing up the same point as someone else three pages before, it gets tiring and pointless.

If Sakurai wants Ridley to get in, he will.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I remember, back when Brawl was still the thing, and then in the revival of roster speculation when SSB4 was announced a year or so ago, I was always bent against Ridley being playable. Sure, I thought it would be cool to play as Ridley, but he was one of two characters that I saw never working in SSB (for reasons everyone here is used to). The other character I was nearly against was an Animal Crossing rep because even Sakurai saw the franchise too peaceful to put in a fighting game.

Look how that turned out.

And THEN, we got Wii Fit Trainer, who no one wanted, or even THOUGHT OF, and yet, she appears to be very well-received.

I feel like Ridley, a character who Sakurai has said could be possible, can get in if Villager, a character who Sakurai basically denied, was the first Sm4sh newcomer announced.

That's what I have to say about that.

Love how you just come in here joined today and its your first post on this thread! Nuff Respect alotta PeePz imbed their first post in this thread.

Welcome to the Boards fello Space Pirate we shall serve Ridley to the end.

 

[Phaazoid]

Just warning you, but the counterargument to this is that there can exist many different Charizard and their heights can vary. You bring up the discrepancies between Pokeball Charizard and PT Charizard, and people will bring up the idea that it's just a different Charizard. Then they'll add that Ridley is the same Ridley in nearly every game, so having a size discrepancy would make far less sense.

Not say I agree with the argument, because I don't. Neither the Smash series or even the Pokemon games makes any sort of distinction regarding sizes between Charizard. At best, the pokemon games have had occasional situations where two seemingly equal pokemon were determined as different by something other than battle statistics.

Regardless, Charizard is simply Charizard in the Smash games. He was first a pokeball Pokemon, then he was playable. That's all there is. As an argument against Ridley's odds, it's very weak as it depends on a factor that's only be acknowledged in the Pokemon anime. The Smash games have taken very few ideas from the Pokemon anime, at most having some trophies that visually referenced the show.

Yeah, I know all the arguments. But what I said had been appropriate in context, argument wise, and it wasn't to someone looking to hate.

And I'd counter that with
And if we're talking about size discrepancies between games, why not compare Ridley's size from smash 64 to brawl? In the melee trailer he was clearly sized small enough to be playable. They've resized him before, they can do it again.

I wouldn't even bring Charizard into that.

Oww about to say...(-_-) you scared the sheet outta me...Real...naa thats not true...

Definitely is true. It is 100% true, there are no girls on the internet. All experts agree.

That. ^

And samusrules, your photobucket bandwidth is exceeded.

I noticed : ( I was going to just move the photobucket pic to my imgur account but I haven't used photobucket in so long that I can't even remember the password. Been years.

I think I'm going to replace it with a custom banner to promote a game I'm making. It's actually starting to take shape, so I figure I should eventually start promoting xD

I have read through a lot of these pages, and not only have the arguments not been "smashed" they just skirt around each other. Everyone here in favor of Ridley completely abstains from any good logic that indicates he would not be in the game. The arguments favoring Ridley completely ignore everything that is brought up, as the person then repeats their argument and acts like they just made a touchdown and usually throws in a stupid insult for good measure. Whenever someone makes a counterpoint to mine, I make a relevant argument considering everything they said, which is then ignored and I get flamed. Then I get accused of ignoring them, along with being a "Ridley hater", which I am not.

Sorry Mr. Lange, I too am guilty of generally skimming over anti Ridley arguments because they are generally shallow, and made by someone who creates an account on the boards, sees this thread, decides that one reason he thinks for Ridley being a silly character choice should instantly debunk common sense thrown at him, and does not listen to logic for a few days before disappearing. It gets to the point of being better to ignore.

However, imo, through this post alone (too lazy to read the others xD) you have shown to me, at least, to have a functioning brain, and an ability to sustain an argument with factual information. So shoot, I promise to take some time out to talk Ridley with you, I genuinely enjoy intelligent arguments. (just make sure to reply to my posts so I get notifications)

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I have read through a lot of these pages, and not only have the arguments not been "smashed" they just skirt around each other. Everyone here in favor of Ridley completely abstains from any good logic that indicates he would not be in the game. The arguments favoring Ridley completely ignore everything that is brought up, as the person then repeats their argument and acts like they just made a touchdown and usually throws in a stupid insult for good measure. Whenever someone makes a counterpoint to mine, I make a relevant argument considering everything they said, which is then ignored and I get flamed. Then I get accused of ignoring them, along with being a "Ridley hater", which I am not.

I'm not really sure about what specific arguments you're talking about,so I'll just take a jab at a couple of different ones.

If it's the size argument then there's over a decade worth of counterargumenting for that, just from Bowser to Olimar to Nintendo never having any problems resizing their characters if they need to, and finally the one I feel that is most important, the fact that Ridley's size isn't an important part of neither his character or appeal. Ridley is to Samus just like what Bowser is to Mario, he's not about being big or scary, he symbolizes an iconic and everlasting rivalry, it's even acknowledged in Melee's intro (yes, I know it's a common example.) Samus could be shooting at any Metroid enemy, but of course it has to be Ridley, he's her enemy. The size argument is generally outdated and has been beaten to death, so I dearly hope that isn't what you're talking about, because it's the most worn out cliché argument, and there's a reason it's become a running joke in the Smash Community.

Proportions isn't a problem either, it wouldn't be the first time proportions are twisted in the characters' favor in Smash Bros.

Hitboxes aren't a problem either, they simply just need to do exactly what they did with Charizard, have the wings and tail face outwards towards the camera so they won't be part of a hitbox.

In general there's no problem with his model or design, while he isn't an easy character to make he's certainly not impossible, and would be far from the most challenging character to make that they've done (that award goes to PT.)

About the boss "issue". There's no Subspace-like Story Mode this time around, and Smash Bros is a Nintendo spin-off series for pete's sake, they can mold and shape any character just like Mario Kart can between the original Mario franchise. Just like Bowser changes size between the canon Mario games, Mario Kart and Mario Party, so can Ridley change size between Metroid, Brawl and SSB4. In Smash Bros there's no canon facts, and the fact that there won't be a over-arching storyline just even further proves that. A change in size shouldn't surprise anyone, and if anything, a little surprise certainly shouldn't hinder a character's inclusion, aye?

I certainly acknowledge that Ridley isn't a lock in any way, I'm a bit concerned about him myself, but he's certainly one of the big contestants this time around. Before he had competition from characters which were admittedly more important than him, like Wario, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, you get the picture. This time around he's one of the last widely recognized Nintendo All-Stars, albeit more popular over here than in Japan for sure, and there's certainly nothing that makes him impossible. However, the fact that he is a hard character to pull off is one of the things that might be pulling his chances just a bit, combined with Japan's not so big love (though I don't believe they have any dislike for him either). However, Sakurai does look outside of Japan, and as mentioned he has pulled off whackier and harder concepts than Ridley before.

Plus, Metroid is a huge franchise, it was already silly that it had only one rep in Brawl, this time around it'd be a slap in the face to us Metroid fans. There's no other Metroid contestant for a playable character spot, nobody else even has decent support anymore, no other contestant has left such a big impact and is as important to the franchise as Ridley. I'd say he'd certainly be well worth the effort, if not for his popularity, then for his importance, and I'm sure Sakurai is smart enough to acknowledge that.

Also, not because I want to be mean or cruel or anything, but don't really expect to be met with a nice and warm welcome when you're dumping into a support thread for Ridley and then stating how he's not within the realms of possibility. It's really self explanatory why you aren't met with happy faces and open arms. Do it with any other support thread and you're most likely gonna be bitten too (especially ones lead by Shortie and Golden.)

That's my take on some of the things, do feel free to bring anything else up, might answer them tommorow, it's getting late here in Denmark, so I'm not going to try and answer anything else in a sleepy state.

 

[RadRedi]

Love how you just come in here joined today and its your first post on this thread! Nuff Respect alotta PeePz imbed their first post in this thread.

Welcome to the Boards fello Space Pirate we shall serve Ridley to the end.

Thanks for having me! I just thought I'd jump right in. I've put my Meet and Greet up, so I thought I'd just go to town everywhere else!


Yeah, I'd love to see Ridley in a Smash Bros game, but I'm a little more neutral on the "Ridley's too big" debate. By that, I mean that I've just kind of let development take its course. If Ridley ends up in the finished product, then awesome! I've always wanted a video game where you can play as Ridley! If he isn't, well darn. I'll have to keep dreaming. But I'm not entirely educated on the "Pro-Ridley" points. I mean, I've read forums where you guys just whipped out size charts and stuff, and I just kind of sat there like "Well...that's cool. I've always wanted to see an actual size reference".

All I know is that Sakurai has since said that Ridley was possible. He seems like the kind of guy who is always calculating, turning the tables during interviews and asking his questioners questions, inquiring about who they'd like to see, how they think they'd work; the kind of guy who can give a futuristic race car driver, two ****** children, a yoga instructor, and a life simulation avatar unique movesets that were barely even present in their respective titles. So, if someone like that says Ridley could be possible, I'll just sit back and hope for the best.

 

[IsmaR]

I have read through a lot of these pages, and not only have the arguments not been "smashed" they just skirt around each other. Everyone here in favor of Ridley completely abstains from any good logic that indicates he would not be in the game. The arguments favoring Ridley completely ignore everything that is brought up, as the person then repeats their argument and acts like they just made a touchdown and usually throws in a stupid insult for good measure. Whenever someone makes a counterpoint to mine, I make a relevant argument considering everything they said, which is then ignored and I get flamed. Then I get accused of ignoring them, along with being a "Ridley hater", which I am not.

I actually like arguing with someone who has any idea what they're saying, unlike my somewhat testy (but justly so) brethren.

Generalizations like these are one of the primary reasons no one would take this seriously no matter what you were arguing. Given how long and how many times we've collectively argued the same exact points, it does indeed get arduous and redundant having to deal with the basically similar 2-3 arguments people tend to make, which more often than not encompass all arguments made again him in the first place. As such most people jump at the opportunity to label some misguided non-believer as a naysayer/"troll" (that's a problem in itself, the concept of trolling is thrown around way too much as is) simply because they feel their "good points/logic" stops our hope dead in its tracks (when in actuality the point has been dealt with numerous times) as if it's never been thought of at all before.

That all said, I don't believe you're in the right just because of these generalizations you make (even if they were true, you're just coming off as elitist). We most certainly do not abstain from good logic, nor do we ignore arguments against the character. And while a few may throw an insult or two, it's Internet. That happens even if both sides completely agree on something, yet disagree on which type of underwear they think is best. I think above all, people believe the fairly well-known counterpoints we Ridley-supporters have made are so infamous that it's hardly worth our time to debate it again. Seriously, the fact that even non-Ridley supporters pop in and defend him from the arguments (see the Roster Prediction Thread for a good perspective) is saying much more than the "pack of wolves rip anyone who thinks differently a new anus" mentality leads to believe. Either way, this is the Ridley discussion topic, of course you'll get a bunch of highly opinionated supporters who don't like their idol's good name being smeared by any good argument, let alone the poor and/or horrendously overused ones.

I don't believe you're necessarily a Ridley hater, btw. You're more like a Ridley-supporter hater.

Edit: Jeez, guys. Way to all turn our smart on at the exact same time. That's a heck of a lot to read.

Welcome to the cause, RadRedi.

 

[Groose]

Honestly I don't think any other newcomer would give off a crowd reaction quite as huge.

I feel that Ridley's reveal could be as big as Sonic's and Snake's were back in the day. To be honest, I'm surprised Mega Man didn't have huge fanfare when he made his arrival.

 

[Mr Lange]

Sorry Mr. Lange, I too am guilty of generally skimming over anti Ridley arguments because they are generally shallow, and made by someone who creates an account on the boards, sees this thread, decides that one reason he thinks for Ridley being a silly character choice should instantly debunk common sense thrown at him, and does not listen to logic for a few days before disappearing. It gets to the point of being better to ignore.

However, imo, through this post alone (too lazy to read the others xD) you have shown to me, at least, to have a functioning brain, and an ability to sustain an argument with factual information. So shoot, I promise to take some time out to talk Ridley with you, I genuinely enjoy intelligent arguments. (just make sure to reply to my posts so I get notifications)

Alright, we'll continue in this thread unless others have a fit (as has been so far). If they protest we can either start our own thread or talk on Skype. Thank you for being one of the few who take me seriously.

I'm not really sure about what specific arguments you're talking about,so I'll just take a jab at a couple of different ones.

If it's the size argument then there's over a decade worth of counterargumenting for that, just from Bowser to Olimar to Nintendo never having any problems resizing their characters if they need to, and finally the one I feel that is most important, the fact that Ridley's size isn't an important part of neither his character or appeal. Ridley is to Samus just like what Bowser is to Mario, he's not about being big or scary, he symbolizes an iconic and everlasting rivalry, it's even acknowledged in Melee's intro (yes, I know it's a common example.) Samus could be shooting at any Metroid enemy, but of course it has to be Ridley, he's her enemy. The size argument is generally outdated and has been beaten to death, so I dearly hope that isn't what you're talking about, because it's the most worn out cliché argument, and there's a reason it's become a running joke in the Smash Community.

Proportions isn't a problem either, it wouldn't be the first time proportions are twisted in the characters' favor in Smash Bros.

Hitboxes aren't a problem either, they simply just need to do exactly what they did with Charizard, have the wings and tail face outwards towards the camera so they won't be part of a hitbox.

In general there's no problem with his model or design, while he isn't an easy character to make he's certainly not impossible, and would be far from the most challenging character to make that they've done (that award goes to PT.)

About the boss "issue". There's no Subspace-like Story Mode this time around, and Smash Bros is a Nintendo spin-off series for pete's sake, they can mold and shape any character just like Mario Kart can between the original Mario franchise. Just like Bowser changes size between the canon Mario games, Mario Kart and Mario Party, so can Ridley change size between Metroid, Brawl and SSB4. In Smash Bros there's no canon facts, and the fact that there won't be a over-arching storyline just even further proves that. A change in size shouldn't surprise anyone, and if anything, a little surprise certainly shouldn't hinder a character's inclusion, aye?

I certainly acknowledge that Ridley isn't a lock in any way, I'm a bit concerned about him myself, but he's certainly one of the big contestants this time around. Before he had competition from characters which were admittedly more important than him, like Wario, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, you get the picture. This time around he's one of the last widely recognized Nintendo All-Stars, albeit more popular over here than in Japan for sure, and there's certainly nothing that makes him impossible. However, the fact that he is a hard character to pull off is one of the things that might be pulling his chances just a bit, combined with Japan's not so big love (though I don't believe they have any dislike for him either). However, Sakurai does look outside of Japan, and as mentioned he has pulled off whackier and harder concepts than Ridley before.

Plus, Metroid is a huge franchise, it was already silly that it had only one rep in Brawl, this time around it'd be a slap in the face to us Metroid fans. There's no other Metroid contestant for a playable character spot, nobody else even has decent support anymore, no other contestant has left such a big impact and is as important to the franchise as Ridley. I'd say he'd certainly be well worth the effort, if not for his popularity, then for his importance, and I'm sure Sakurai is smart enough to acknowledge that.

Also, not because I want to be mean or cruel or anything, but don't really expect to be met with a nice and warm welcome when you're dumping into a support thread for Ridley and then stating how he's not within the realms of possibility. It's really self explanatory why you aren't met with happy faces and open arms. Do it with any other support thread and you're most likely gonna be bitten too (especially ones lead by Shortie and Golden.)

That's my take on some of the things, do feel free to bring anything else up, might answer them tommorow, it's getting late here in Denmark, so I'm not going to try and answer anything else in a sleepy state.

Finally someone else who is willing to talk to me reasonably. I started a Ridley argument thread a few weeks ago and a number of users got furious. The sheer upset called for a mod to lock it, and I moved the discussion here as suggested. It just resulted in more flaming.

The Bowser point has been used dozens of times. I've pointed out (which is ignored every time) that Bowser's size changes are not random. They're concurrent with the events in the games. His size is always related to whatever magic power he's abusing. When he's not stealing power stars or using spells, he's at a default size and easily a match for Mario which is seen in the sports games and Smash Bros. The more power Bowser hoards, the larger he gets. Both Kamek and Kammy have made him gargantuan using magic. The power stars in SM64 caused him to grow much larger. This was reinforced in Sunshine when he was only gigantic while in possession of the shine sprites, and much more so Mario Galaxy where his size changed depending on what he had in his possession at a given moment; power stars made him huge, grand stars made him Godzilla sized. When Mario confiscated them, they actually show him shrinking back to his default size.

In Ridley's case, the size changes are more along the lines of the creators not having a consistent design in place until recently. The only examples of his small size are cited from NES (which is obviously not accurate and due to design limitations, given Kraid is the same size as Ridley) and the Melee opening (which is a very sketchy source to base upon). In every other source, namely the entire Metroid series, Ridley is always shown to be approx four times larger than Samus, his head alone being larger than her whole body. The Smash devs obviously acknowledge this continuum of design choice with his size and placement in Brawl. It would be VERY unusual for them to backpedal this choice, especially given all of the implications that would go with making him smaller and cramming his powers into a playable character.

I actually like arguing with someone who has any idea what they're saying, unlike my somewhat testy (but justly so) brethren.

Generalizations like these are one of the primary reasons no one would take this seriously no matter what you were arguing. Given how long and how many times we've collectively argued the same exact points, it does indeed get arduous and redundant having to deal with the basically similar 2-3 arguments people tend to make, which more often than not encompass all arguments made again him in the first place. As such most people jump at the opportunity to label some misguided non-believer as a naysayer/"troll" (that's a problem in itself, the concept of trolling is thrown around way too much as is) simply because they feel their "good points/logic" stops our hope dead in its tracks (when in actuality the point has been dealt with numerous times) as if it's never been thought of at all before.

That all said, I don't believe you're in the right just because of these generalizations you make (even if they were true, you're just coming off as elitist). We most certainly do not abstain from good logic, nor do we ignore arguments against the character. And while a few may throw an insult or two, it's Internet. That happens even if both sides completely agree on something, yet disagree on which type of underwear they think is best. I think above all, people believe the fairly well-known counterpoints we Ridley-supporters have made are so infamous that it's hardly worth our time to debate it again. Seriously, the fact that even non-Ridley supporters pop in and defend him from the arguments (see the Roster Prediction Thread for a good perspective) is saying much more than the "pack of wolves rip anyone who thinks differently a new anus" mentality leads to believe. Either way, this is the Ridley discussion topic, of course you'll get a bunch of highly opinionated supporters who don't like their idol's good name being smeared by any good argument, let alone the poor and/or horrendously overused ones.

I don't believe you're necessarily a Ridley hater, btw. You're more like a Ridley-supporter hater.

Edit: Jeez, guys. Way to all turn our smart on at the exact same time. That's a heck of a lot to read.

Welcome to the cause, RadRedi.

These generalizations are made based on the majority's reaction when I started bringing it up here. It has remained true up until now.
Not everything has been thought of. A great deal of things have been ignored, likely because the Ridley supporters are so obsessed with the idea of him being playable that they try to sweep things in the closet and hope no one notices, or immediately shoot down any argument that they haven't thought of that does indicate Ridley may not be playable. That's why I'm here, making these points. No one else has been, except a couple others I've seen in past pages who were attacked so fast that they quickly left and didn't bother coming back.

Edit: I want to point at that I don't hate Ridley supporters either. I have nothing against anyone here. I just want a proper discussion. I've gotten very good arguments so far, but the discussion dead ends when they assume they're 100% right and I have nothing worth saying.

 

[Groose]

Alright, we'll continue in this thread unless others have a fit (as has been so far). If they protest we can either start our own thread or talk on Skype. Thank you for being one of the few who take me seriously.


Finally someone else who is willing to talk to me reasonably. I started a Ridley argument thread a few weeks ago and a number of users got furious. The sheer upset called for a mod to lock it, and I moved the discussion here as suggested. It just resulted in more flaming.

The Bowser point has been used dozens of times. I've pointed out (which is ignored every time) that Bowser's size changes are not random. They're concurrent with the events in the games. His size is always related to whatever magic power he's abusing. When he's not stealing power stars or using spells, he's at a default size and easily a match for Mario which is seen in the sports games and Smash Bros. The more power Bowser hoards, the larger he gets. Both Kamek and Kammy have made him gargantuan using magic. The power stars in SM64 caused him to grow much larger. This was reinforced in Sunshine when he was only gigantic while in possession of the shine sprites, and much more so Mario Galaxy where his size changed depending on what he had in his possession at a given moment; power stars made him huge, grand stars made him Godzilla sized. When Mario confiscated them, they actually show him shrinking back to his default size.

In Ridley's case, the size changes are more along the lines of the creators not having a consistent design in place until recently. The only examples of his small size are cited from NES (which is obviously not accurate and due to design limitations, given Kraid is the same size as Ridley) and the Melee opening (which is a very sketchy source to base upon). In every other source, namely the entire Metroid series, Ridley is always shown to be approx four times larger than Samus, his head alone being larger than her whole body. The Smash devs obviously acknowledge this continuum of design choice with his size and placement in Brawl. It would be VERY unusual for them to backpedal this choice, especially given all of the implications that would go with making him smaller and cramming his powers into a playable character.

Popularity is the one thing I could see changing Sakurai's mind. I'd argue that Ridley is one of the very few characters who is popular enough for this to happen.

I've actually seen a few ideas in which Ridley basically crawls across the floor and is still the game's tallest character. Personally, I think this option would work---Ridley wouldn't have to be desized too far, and it would make him incredibly unique.

 

[Mr Lange]

Popularity is the one thing I could see changing Sakurai's mind. I'd argue that Ridley is one of the very few characters who is popular enough for this to happen.

I've actually seen a few ideas in which Ridley basically crawls across the floor and is still the game's tallest character. Personally, I think this option would work---Ridley wouldn't have to be desized too far, and it would make him incredibly unique.

Size isn't the only thing that keeps Ridley from being a legitimate character. It is one of the big ones yes, but not the only reason I'm making these points.
Hal, who has been behind the design of Smash, has a certain formula and set of archetypes for characters. Their design plans are seen clearly in Subspace Emissary, which is very similar to Kirby games.
To say Ridley would be playable is like saying Marx from KSS would be playable. You can scrape up a ton of excuses in his favor, but they don't amount to the big picture at all. Marx is a boss character. He's large, his attacks are overwhelming, and he's a static entity that floats around as you whittle down its health. Ridley is very far on the Marx end of the spectrum. Other characters on that end of the spectrum are Master Hand and Tabuu.
Another clear comparison is Rayquaza. In many ways his design as a boss is similar to Ridley, and it is easy to see that Rayquaza would never fit as a Smash character. The means of forcing his design to fit that mold are too absurd to be reasonably done. They'd have to make a million compromises to the point where it's not even Rayquaza anymore. The same principle applies to Ridley.
Ridley's gust attack lasts for seconds and takes up the entire stage. He flies endlessly and attacks by charging the entire breadth and height of the stage. He's clearly in the boss class of character archetypes. To make him fit as a playable character would require compromising all of those design choices that make Ridley who he is. By the time he's been squeezed into a playable character, he just wouldn't be Ridley anymore. The results would be far too awkward. This is not something the devs would steer towards. That's what concerns me about popular demand winning out when it would mean abandoning all of their senses as developers just to make it happen.

 

[BlitznBurst]

As somebody who doesn't think Ridley would work in Smash Bros. at all, let me just say the "Ridley is too big" argument is stupid. Sakurai has shown he has no problem with scaling characters to make them fit in with the rest of the roster. Olimar was scaled up from the size of a quater, for god's sake. Scale is irrelevant in this franchise. The canonical backstory is that they're toys. Scale doesn't matter because they're just a bunch of trophies.

And yes I'm aware that this causes issues in my previous arguments. I don't particularly care enough to justify my previous claims so eh

EDIT: Well Lange just explained all my issues in his previous post anyway. It just wouldn't feel like Ridley any more. He could be included, but it would just lose the appeal Ridley has to me. May as well include a Metal gear as a character

 

[Mr Lange]

As somebody who doesn't think Ridley would work in Smash Bros. at all, let me just say the "Ridley is too big" argument is stupid. Sakurai has shown he has no problem with scaling characters to make them fit in with the rest of the roster. Olimar was scaled up from the size of a quater, for god's sake. Scale is irrelevant in this franchise. The canonical backstory is that they're toys. Scale doesn't matter because they're just a bunch of trophies.

And yes I'm aware that this causes issues in my previous arguments. I don't particularly care enough to justify my previous claims so eh

EDIT: Well Lange just explained all my issues in his previous post anyway. It just wouldn't feel like Ridley any more. He could be included, but it would just lose the appeal Ridley has to me. May as well include a Metal gear as a character

Olimar works; being scaled to human size is believable. He fits in with the cast. He also maintains body proportions with the others. Characters like Charizard are a stretch, but they'd have to stretch Ridley to breaking point to make him work as a character.
The "Ridley is too big" argument is a valid argument. He's consistently shown to be enormous and his anatomy and powers reflect his size. To scale him down to even Bowser's size would be absurd. It's one thing in a split second cutscene (Melee) but it would look bad seeing it all the time. On top of that, consider the inverse effect. They'd be giving an impression to players that this is Ridley's size compared to most of the characters there, particularly Samus. To play future (or past for that matter) Metroid games and see Ridley the size of a house again is not something they'd want to happen.
Scale is relevant in this series, but with some wiggle room, and as long as it doesn't interfere with the properties of the character. If they didn't give a damn about scale at all and just wanted to ruin all believability, they might as well make playable Andross, Kraid, Marx, Ganon, and Porky's mech. Does that sound like something they'd do? No, because scale matters, and you know it.

 

[Oasis_S]

Excuse you, Porky supporter here.

Anyway, sounds like you're getting hung up on trivial details, but just wait for the others to tell you so more long-windedly and nicely to make you feel special.

 

[Deleted member]

The Bowser point has been used dozens of times. I've pointed out (which is ignored every time) that Bowser's size changes are not random. They're concurrent with the events in the games. His size is always related to whatever magic power he's abusing. When he's not stealing power stars or using spells, he's at a default size and easily a match for Mario which is seen in the sports games and Smash Bros. The more power Bowser hoards, the larger he gets. Both Kamek and Kammy have made him gargantuan using magic. The power stars in SM64 caused him to grow much larger. This was reinforced in Sunshine when he was only gigantic while in possession of the shine sprites, and much more so Mario Galaxy where his size changed depending on what he had in his possession at a given moment; power stars made him huge, grand stars made him Godzilla sized. When Mario confiscated them, they actually show him shrinking back to his default size.

I will say this one more time, and even though I doubt this will get into the heads of the "too biggers", I'm hoping this will be the last time I have to do so.

The magic excuse is a load of bullocks.
Magic only applies to cases where he visibly is altered by the usage of magic by Kamek or the Koopalings, and that's almost ALWAYS when he goes Kaiju size that is borderline Kraid territory, far larger than the largest Ridley has ever been.

The Power Stars in Super Mario 64 didn't affect Bowser's size. Otherwise, Bowser would be getting smaller every time he is faced, since Mario is taking them from him. But instead, Bowser is the same exact large size EVERY TIME.

Shine Sprites in Sunshine? By the time we see Bowser Sr. in the game, Mario's recovered most of them. And even then, the purpose the Shine Sprites was to hide them as a method by Bowser Jr. to frame Mario and have him imprisoned, not serve as a power-up to Bowser (who was just taking a vacation and letting Jr. do his thing).
Granted, he shrunk from his fight with Mario to his confession to Jr. about Peach, so that could possibly be attributed to the slime in the hot tub he was in.
Still was pretty damn big during his confession, when compared to Jr.

New Super Mario Bros.?
No magic. No really, there was no magic "make Bowser grow" spell here, as that started in New Super Bros. Wii.
So instead, we got Mario against ONLY natural Bowser (aside from the brief stint as Dry Bowser), and this is what we get:

That's "too big". (Also, remember Sunshine, when "shrunk" Bowser was confessing to Jr.? The size difference between the two was far greater than this, opening up another size inconsistency, especially with Jr. being smaller than Mario in that game, yet he's bigger here!)

Super Mario Galaxy, Bowser did not use the Power Stars to alter his size; that was Super Mario Galaxy 2 with the Grand Star.
As thus, we have Mario vs. natural Bowser again, and it's this:

New Super Mario Bros. Wii? The beginning of the "make Bowser grow" spells.
However, as stated earlier, that only applies to the final battle (er, escape, I should say). The battle right before it, though, is Mario vs. pre-magic growth Bowser.

Still too big.


Super Mario Galaxy 2, as stated, is when Bowser used the Grand Star to make him grow to Kaiju size, and that's in the beginning. When it is knocked out of him, He's still big enough to fit it in his mouth and eat it, and it's bigger than Mario's whole body.
Can't get a good image.






Super Mario 3D Land?

New Super Mario Bros. 2? Same deal as Wii. Pre-magic size, and post-magic size, with pre-magic being once again much larger than Mario.

New Super Mario Bros. U? New game, old trick.

So really, all the Ridley detractors have to counter the Bowser point is spin-offs.
Really? That's the big counterpoint? Games that fans question whether they are canon or not? And games like Mario Kart which shrink just about anyone big just so they can fit in a kart such as the frigging HONEY QUEEN? Or is she only big because of magic too?
And even then, Bowser is still frigging large in size unless he's playable.

W-wait, what was that again? Bowser has to be shrunk for cases where he is playable?!? Go figure.
Best example is the Strikers games.
In Super Mario Strikers, Bowser was a randomly appearing hazard, and boy, was he huge.

He had to use a team of original character robots to compete for him, by the way.

In the sequel, Mario Strikers Charged, Bowser learned how to play the game himself (as did his son), and he CONVENIENTLY shrunk down to be viable as a fellow competitor.

Is there some "make Bowser small" spell too?


Thus, Bowser as a counterpoint fully ****ing works against Ridley detractors. Check and Mate.

 

[Morbi]

Sometimes this thread makes me want to commit suicide. I am so sick of the Ridley is too big argument... sick of it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptzzU7jFQwo

I wont embed the video as it doesn't relate... but this is how I feel reading this thread. I always come back thinking a new argument would be made. Good thing
@GoldenYuiitusin
has more patience than I do. He puts up text wall after text wall after text wall. A true genius. Good job, bro.

 

[Oasis_S]

Golden, it's almost like you're trying to say that size is a byproduct of what role a character is given? Surely you're joking, I mean that's just crazy.

 

[Erimir]

EDIT: Well Lange just explained all my issues in his previous post anyway. It just wouldn't feel like Ridley any more. He could be included, but it would just lose the appeal Ridley has to me. May as well include a Metal gear as a character

Well, returning to the notion that Smash Bros represents "playing with toys"...

If you were a little kid again and you had a Ridley toy that was the same size as Bowser is relative to Samus, would it really not be fun to play with it? Would you be upset that Ridley wasn't multiple times larger?

Another clear comparison is Rayquaza. In many ways his design as a boss is similar to Ridley, and it is easy to see that Rayquaza would never fit as a Smash character. The means of forcing his design to fit that mold are too absurd to be reasonably done. They'd have to make a million compromises to the point where it's not even Rayquaza anymore. The same principle applies to Ridley.

Rayquaza doesn't have limbs. For one.

He also represents a series with plenty of better choices (ones that are just as popular or more popular, and that are easier to design) and that already has plenty of representation.

Ridley's gust attack lasts for seconds and takes up the entire stage. He flies endlessly and attacks by charging the entire breadth and height of the stage. He's clearly in the boss class of character archetypes.

In THAT incarnation. In other incarnations, he shoots fireballls, whips his tail and grabs you with his claws. Which all seem like they'd work fine in a Smash playable character.

To make him fit as a playable character would require compromising all of those design choices that make Ridley who he is. By the time he's been squeezed into a playable character, he just wouldn't be Ridley anymore. The results would be far too awkward. This is not something the devs would steer towards. That's what concerns me about popular demand winning out when it would mean abandoning all of their senses as developers just to make it happen.

So tell me... do you think that the artwork on the Super Metroid cartridge is "just not Ridley"?

Or is he just not the Metroid Prime Ridley?

Because I feel that a lot of the time when people say that, that's all they really mean. But 1. Metroid Prime is not everything Metroid (awesome though it is) and 2. the SNES Ridley is the one that Japanese fans would be the most familiar with, and by far the most popular Metroid game in Japan.

Go play the original NES Metroid and SNES Metroid and then come back and talk about how Ridley is just so ginormous and only uses attacks that work for a boss character.

It wouldn't be Meta-Ridley, for sure. I'd totally agree on that. But neither is playing Bowser like playing as the Bowser from Mario Galaxy. He's really nothing like playing as that version of Bowser. And that's ok. The Super Metroid version of Ridley is my favorite incarnation of him, and it fits into Smash without requiring radical changes.

 

[Mr Lange]

I will say this one more time, and even though I doubt this will get into the heads of the "too biggers", I'm hoping this will be the last time I have to do so.

The magic excuse is a load of bullocks.
Magic only applies to cases where he visibly is altered by the usage of magic by Kamek or the Koopalings, and that's almost ALWAYS when he goes Kaiju size that is borderline Kraid territory, far larger than the largest Ridley has ever been.

The Power Stars in Super Mario 64 didn't affect Bowser's size. Otherwise, Bowser would be getting smaller every time he is faced, since Mario is taking them from him. But instead, Bowser is the same exact large size EVERY TIME.

Shine Sprites in Sunshine? By the time we see Bowser Sr. in the game, Mario's recovered most of them. And even then, the purpose the Shine Sprites was to hide them as a method by Bowser Jr. to frame Mario and have him imprisoned, not serve as a power-up to Bowser (who was just taking a vacation and letting Jr. do his thing).
Granted, he shrunk from his fight with Mario to his confession to Jr. about Peach, so that could possibly be attributed to the slime in the hot tub he was in.
Still was pretty damn big during his confession, when compared to Jr.

New Super Mario Bros.?
No magic. No really, there was no magic "make Bowser grow" spell here, as that started in New Super Bros. Wii.
So instead, we got Mario against ONLY natural Bowser (aside from the brief stint as Dry Bowser), and this is what we get:

That's "too big". (Also, remember Sunshine, when "shrunk" Bowser was confessing to Jr.? The size difference between the two was far greater than this, opening up another size inconsistency, especially with Jr. being smaller than Mario in that game, yet he's bigger here!)

Super Mario Galaxy, Bowser did not use the Power Stars to alter his size; that was Super Mario Galaxy 2 with the Grand Star.
As thus, we have Mario vs. natural Bowser again, and it's this:

New Super Mario Bros. Wii? The beginning of the "make Bowser grow" spells.
However, as stated earlier, that only applies to the final battle (er, escape, I should say). The battle right before it, though, is Mario vs. pre-magic growth Bowser.

Still too big.


Super Mario Galaxy 2, as stated, is when Bowser used the Grand Star to make him grow to Kaiju size, and that's in the beginning. When it is knocked out of him, He's still big enough to fit it in his mouth and eat it, and it's bigger than Mario's whole body.
Can't get a good image.






Super Mario 3D Land?

New Super Mario Bros. 2? Same deal as Wii. Pre-magic size, and post-magic size, with pre-magic being once again much larger than Mario.

New Super Mario Bros. U? New game, old trick.

So really, all the Ridley detractors have to counter the Bowser point is spin-offs.
Really? That's the big counterpoint? Games that fans question whether they are canon or not? And games like Mario Kart which shrink just about anyone big just so they can fit in a kart such as the frigging HONEY QUEEN? Or is she only big because of magic too?
And even then, Bowser is still frigging large in size unless he's playable.

W-wait, what was that again? Bowser has to be shrunk for cases where he is playable?!? Go figure.
Best example is the Strikers games.
In Super Mario Strikers, Bowser was a randomly appearing hazard, and boy, was he huge.

He had to use a team of original character robots to compete for him, by the way.

In the sequel, Mario Strikers Charged, Bowser learned how to play the game himself (as did his son), and he CONVENIENTLY shrunk down to be viable as a fellow competitor.

Is there some "make Bowser small" spell too?


Thus, Bowser as a counterpoint fully ****ing works against Ridley detractors. Check and Mate.

Actually, you've only watered down my argument. There is a lot of unexplained Bowser size changes, but he is always extra large during times where he has either hoarded power, abused magic, or is directly confronting Mario as a boss. Considering he always has Kamek or magic on his side, it is very likely he is being suped up in these scenarios. In Paper Mario, Kammy further enlarges Bowser through the platform where you fight him, which is actually a large magic amplifying machine. There is a consistency with his size changes, but even with the gaps, the point is that his size changes are believable. You can picture Bowser as a Godzilla or wrestling with the Smash cast, because we recognize him at variable sizes.

Ridley has an intentionally large design. The Metroid series isn't comical or cartoony, it's much more realistic. He doesn't use magic or anything to manipulate his size. His size changes in the series are due to artist inconsistencies, not because they have the freedom to suspend our disbelief. We've only seen him much smaller in the distant past, in two offbeat situations. They've stabilized his design nowadays, and he is always seen as very large. They've made it very clear this is how Ridley is meant to be. They don't squash and stretch him as they please like Bowser does. Seeing him as a smaller character interferes with the viewer's belief, unlike Bowser.

Your argument is not a checkmate and this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. You counter what I say with a decent argument, but pretend like it has trampled on everything anyone has ever said against Ridley's case. Then you act like you made a touchdown.

 

[IsmaR]

That post seems vaguely familiar to one I posted before, albeit with less Golden-y captions.

 

[Morbi]

Actually, you've only watered down my argument. There is a lot of unexplained Bowser size changes, but he is always extra large during times where he has either hoarded power, abused magic, or is directly confronting Mario as a boss. Considering he always has Kamek or magic on his side, it is very likely he is being suped up in these scenarios. In Paper Mario, Kammy further enlarges Bowser through the platform where you fight him, which is actually a large magic amplifying machine. There is a consistency with his size changes, but even with the gaps, the point is that his size changes are believable. You can picture Bowser as a Godzilla or wrestling with the Smash cast, because we recognize him at variable sizes.

Ridley has an intentionally large design. The Metroid series isn't comical or cartoony, it's much more realistic. He doesn't use magic or anything to manipulate his size. His size changes in the series are due to artist inconsistencies, not because they have the freedom to suspend our disbelief. We've only seen him much smaller in the distant past, in two offbeat situations. They've stabilized his design nowadays, and he is always seen as very large. They've made it very clear this is how Ridley is meant to be. They don't squash and stretch him as they please like Bowser does. Seeing him as a smaller character interferes with the viewer's belief, unlike Bowser.

Your argument is not a checkmate and this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. You counter what I say with a decent argument, but pretend like it has trampled on everything anyone has ever said against Ridley's case. Then you act like you made a touchdown.

I will give you an automatic checkmate argument if that is what you want... get ready for a giant wall of text! Just kidding, sometimes the most correct answer is the most simple answer...
AHEM... AHEM... let me clear my throat... AHEM!

Ok... get ready again... Smash doesn't use the canon of each franchise!

Just try to make a counter argument... just try...

 

[Mr Lange]

I will give you an automatic checkmate argument if that is what you want... get ready for a giant wall of text! Just kidding, sometimes the most correct answer is the most simple answer...
AHEM... AHEM... let me clear my throat... AHEM!

Ok... get ready again... Smash doesn't use the canon of each franchise!

Just try to make a counter argument... just try...

I did, read above.
Canon and scale matters, but they were willing to stretch things a bit. A BIT. Only because for a game like Smash, some compromises are necessary. They won't do anything that significantly defies what has been established. They consider canon important because they're celebrating every series. They want the players to feel at home with all of the aspects that make the characters who and what they are.
As I've said above, to distort and compromise Ridley until he's a playable character is stretching him to breaking point. They would have to forcibly create a Smash character while ruining Ridley in the process.

 

[Morbi]

I did, read above.
Canon and scale matters, but they were willing to stretch things a bit. A BIT. Only because for a game like Smash, some compromises are necessary. They won't do anything that significantly defies what has been established. They consider canon important because they're celebrating every series. They want the players to feel at home with all of the aspects that make the characters who and what they are.
As I've said above, to distort and compromise Ridley until he's a playable character is stretching him to breaking point. They would forcibly create a Smash character while ruining Ridley in the process.

Are you kidding me? That just leads me to throw around generic arguments like Olimar or Sheik/Zelda. I won't bother though. If you actually think canon matters in a Smash game, I don't have time to convince you otherwise. It takes a special kind of person....

 

[Reznor]

I will give you an automatic checkmate argument if that is what you want... get ready for a giant wall of text! Just kidding, sometimes the most correct answer is the most simple answer...
AHEM... AHEM... let me clear my throat... AHEM!

Ok... get ready again... Smash doesn't use the canon of each franchise!

Just try to make a counter argument... just try...

this right here smash doesn't care about canon hell even in the Smash series Ridley changes size
in melee hes about the same size as Samus and in Brawl hes huge

 

[IsmaR]

@Morbid Altruism

Seriously, I wish people'd think of that more often. They can come up with whatever excuse they want to (Junior obviously aged from Sunshine).

The fact remains, Nintendo has always been about gameplay first and foremost. Not conforming the gameplay to meet story needs.