Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[Starcutter]

Turning Ridley into a playable character makes him not Ridley.

well then...

NOT RIDLEY PLAYABLE FOR SMASH!

 

[Mr Lange]

Pretty sure that "dumber" boss is both bigger and heavier than Ridley.
So by logic (which you seem to want to exert), Wario would have an easier time taking down Ridley than he would Dinomighty.

Quit being an idiot.

What? Ridley may not be as heavy but he is super intelligent. Wario would have his hands full trying to fight Ridley. A giant ******** lizard is the kind of thing Wario fights on a day to day basis. A super intelligent dragon with super strength and fire breath is a different matter entirely.

My reaction to several posts on this page: then then and then finally .

Again, I will pose my question, which no one has been able to answer.

If Ridley's only option of defeating Samus was to shrink to relatively her size (AS HE HAS APPEARED BEFORE MIGHT I ADD), don't you think that this bloodthirsty son of a mother loving dragon would take the opportunity to defeat his mortal enemy?

Not to mention, what does decreasing his size do anyway? Defeat the purpose of his character? I guess increasing Olimar's size does nothing to mess with the theme of him being incredibly tiny to the environment around him which is meant to be EARTH. Or that Bowser has been resized on so many occasions. SO. ****ING. MANY.

Okay. So Ridley is fairly larger than Samus in several games that they both appear in. We get that. But, what you're saying is, they can't decrease his "in game" height a bit to even the playing field?

Well, if that doesn't work, then I propose that we just increase everyone else's size to incorporate Ridley then!

Everything you just said I've covered multiple times now. Thoroughly.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

What? Ridley may not be as heavy but he is super intelligent. Wario would have his hands full trying to fight Ridley. A giant ******** lizard is the kind of thing Wario fights on a day to day basis. A super intelligent dragon with super strength and fire breath is a different matter entirely.


Everything you just said I've covered multiple times now. Thoroughly.

I've read your comments. I've failed to see a valid point that convinces me.

Ridley isn't even my most wanted character either, i'm not biased.

 

[Starcutter]

well, can you re state it, since I highly doubt many people are willing to check back past 4 pages.


well, it's late, I'll catch up tomorrow morning.

 

[Mr Lange]

...

*Gives Pikachu a Ray Gun and shoots Mario to death*

...Huh...

Missed everything I said. Woosh.

Here is the thing though... this is why arguing canon within series like this is a WASTE OF TIME.

Mewtwo spawns at Level 70... that is more than enough to destroy any and every Pokemon in Smash. Based on the games canon Pokemon cannot level up on their own, or Pokemon never level up to the extent of legendaries like Mewtwo does in the wild. Who knows? Anyways... Mewtwo's starting attacks and base stats are enough to take on Pikachu, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Pichu, Jigglypuff, and Lucario. In the anime/manga he is regarded as one of the most powerful Pokemon.

So no... in canon no Pokemon in Smash can defeat Mewtwo. The only canon they can is in the game... if you are level 100. This is only one out of 3 canons.

My point is that arguing about canon is like arguing over who would win in a hypothetical Smash match... Mario or Link? I guess the one that is being controlled by a better player... BECAUSE IT IS A GOD DAMNED VIDEO GAME!!!!

The games are the only canon counted. As far as the devs are concerned, the animes and mangas may as well not exist. The only exception is that the cosmetic choice of Pokemon saying their own names. Pikachu, Lucario and Jigglypuff may very well have had a trainer before they entered Smash. Not to mention certain tourney events the Pokemon in the games are always level 50, and this includes legendaries if they're allowed, so there is some method of power equalization possible in the Pokemon series that may very well be applied in Smash.

I've read your comments. I've failed to see a valid point that convinces me.
Ridley isn't even my most wanted character either, i'm not biased.

Then you're either reading my posts from a biased perspective or there's nothing in the world that can convince you, because I've made the strongest, clearest arguments possible for this case.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Missed everything I said. Woosh.

The games are the only canon counted. As far as the devs are concerned, the animes and mangas may as well not exist. The only exception is that the cosmetic choice of Pokemon saying their own names. Pikachu, Lucario and Jigglypuff may very well have had a trainer before they entered Smash. Not to mention certain tourney events the Pokemon in the games are always level 50, and this includes legendaries if they're allowed, so there is some method of power equalization possible in the Pokemon series that may very well be applied in Smash.

It's a ****ing video game. Stop with these "what if" scenarios. They don't do anything for your argument, because these scenarios don't exist.

Pikachu, Lucario, Jigglypuff, and even Mewtwo don't have levels in Smash Bros., because it's Smash Bros. I can say Mario just fixed my leaky faucet because he's a plumber, but that doesn't mean anything.

Because it's a game. None of the characters in Smash are real. Not even Snake. So what does it matter if things are messed with? Will your feelings be hurt? Well they shouldn't be, because it's a ****ing video game.

I could understand if they made Ridley completely different from his character. I could understand that. But changing his size is really not as big a deal as you're making it out to be. They've changed his size in Smash a few times already. It really doesn't matter.

 

[Morbi]

Missed everything I said. Woosh.

The games are the only canon counted. As far as the devs are concerned, the animes and mangas may as well not exist. The only exception is that the cosmetic choice of Pokemon saying their own names. Pikachu, Lucario and Jigglypuff may very well have had a trainer before they entered Smash. Not to mention certain tourney events the Pokemon in the games are always level 50, and this includes legendaries if they're allowed, so there is some method of power equalization possible in the Pokemon series that may very well be applied in Smash.

They are official. The anime and manga are official. So they count. You don't get to decide.

The only Pokemon with a Trainer in Smash are Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard. According to canon that is... because that means so much. Secondly... Mewtwo has a better stat pool than any of them. So essentially you are saying that only PKMN Trainer can defeat Mewtwo because Ice Climbers can't get on the stadium and beat Mewtwo's ass themselves? No... in Smash canon anyone can fight anyone regardless of whatever constraints are in other games.

A level 50 Mewtwo would smoke a level 50 Charizard ANY day. It is a bad MU. Same with Ivy... really bad MU. Squirtle... don't make me laugh.

That is my point though. Canon doesn't matter in a franchise that mashes all other franchises. So Ridley being 1/4 of his usual size wouldn't hurt his Metroid canon. It would just establish some SSB4 canon. That is it.

 

[Mr Lange]

It's a ****ing video game. Stop with these "what if" scenarios. They don't do anything for your argument, because these scenarios don't exist.

Pikachu, Lucario, Jigglypuff, and even Mewtwo don't have levels in Smash Bros., because it's Smash Bros. I can say Mario just fixed my leaky faucet because he's a plumber, but that doesn't mean anything.

Because it's a game. None of the characters in Smash are real. Not even Snake. So what does it matter if things are messed with? Will your feelings be hurt? Well they shouldn't be, because it's a ****ing video game.

I could understand if they made Ridley completely different from his character. I could understand that. But changing his size is really not as big a deal as you're making it out to be. They've changed his size in Smash a few times already. It really doesn't matter.

As I've said many times I'm not against Ridley's inclusion.
And here we go again:

Size isn't the only thing that keeps Ridley from being a legitimate character. It is one of the big ones yes, but not the only reason I'm making these points.
Hal, who has been behind the design of Smash, has a certain formula and set of archetypes for characters. Their design plans are seen clearly in Subspace Emissary, which is very similar to Kirby games.
To say Ridley would be playable is like saying Marx from KSS would be playable. You can scrape up a ton of excuses in his favor, but they don't amount to the big picture at all. Marx is a boss character. He's large, his attacks are overwhelming, and he's a static entity that floats around as you whittle down its health. Ridley is very far on the Marx end of the spectrum. Other characters on that end of the spectrum are Master Hand and Tabuu.
Another clear comparison is Rayquaza. In many ways his design as a boss is similar to Ridley, and it is easy to see that Rayquaza would never fit as a Smash character. The means of forcing his design to fit that mold are too absurd to be reasonably done. They'd have to make a million compromises to the point where it's not even Rayquaza anymore. The same principle applies to Ridley.
Ridley's gust attack lasts for seconds and takes up the entire stage. He flies endlessly and attacks by charging the entire breadth and height of the stage. He's clearly in the boss class of character archetypes. To make him fit as a playable character would require compromising all of those design choices that make Ridley who he is. By the time he's been squeezed into a playable character, he just wouldn't be Ridley anymore. The results would be far too awkward. This is not something the devs would steer towards. That's what concerns me about popular demand winning out when it would mean abandoning all of their senses as developers just to make it happen.

 

[Deleted member]

You ignored my response earlier. What if Kraid had been as big an influence as Ridley? Does that mean he should be a character? How realistic do you honestly think it would be that they would do that? It wouldn't even be Kraid anymore if they did. That point applies to Ridley. Turning Ridley into a playable character makes him not Ridley. It makes him weird distorted nerfed looks-kinda-like Ridley.
Once again, Smash stretches characters to a reasonable, believable extent. They won't forcibly adapt the unadaptable. Olimar fits as a character. So does Villager. Frankly I'd say Wii Fit Trainer is the biggest stretch they've made so far, but it is still a far cry from how far they'd have to stretch Ridley to make him playable.

If Kraid had as big an influence as Ridley, then by all means, add Kraid.

Have a giant Kraid attacking from the background be the FS. Problem solved.

However, Kraid has not had a big influence like Ridley, so again, QUIT USING HIM AS AN EXAMPLE.

If Smash turned Ganondorf, the King of Evil who by fate can only be slain by the Master Sword, into a slow, lumbering geezer that can get his ass kicked by a Jigglypuff, what difference would making Ridley a tad smaller do?
OMG HE'S NOT AS BIG AS GODZILLA HE'S NOT RIDLEY ANYMORE

Boo hoo, cry me a river you pansy. Pretty sure what happened to Ganondorf is the bigger crime.

And no, Olimar does not fit if Ridley doesn't.
He's the size of a quarter, and relies on dozens and dozens of Pikmin to have any sort of chance at survival against something the 8 inch Kirby can step on and not realize.
So suddenly, he's able to stand taller than Kirby and beat people up using only 6 Pikmin at most at one time?
How the **** is that supposed to be believable?

And the Villager and Wii Fit Trainer? Two non-fighters? So it's suddenly feasible for them to start beating Pikachu to death, but it's NOT feasible to have Ridley do the same at a size more comparable to Super Metroid rather than his boss battle in Brawl where he was SCALED UP?!?
Talk about ******** double standards.

 

[Reznor]

It's a ****ing video game. Stop with these "what if" scenarios. They don't do anything for your argument, because these scenarios don't exist.

Pikachu, Lucario, Jigglypuff, and even Mewtwo don't have levels in Smash Bros., because it's Smash Bros. I can say Mario just fixed my leaky faucet because he's a plumber, but that doesn't mean anything.

Because it's a game. None of the characters in Smash are real. Not even Snake. So what does it matter if things are messed with? Will your feelings be hurt? Well they shouldn't be, because it's a ****ing video game.

I could understand if they made Ridley completely different from his character. I could understand that. But changing his size is really not as big a deal as you're making it out to be. They've changed his size in Smash a few times already. It really doesn't matter.

I might have already brought up the size changing in smash thing but he ignored my post

 

[LaniusShrike]

What? Ridley may not be as heavy but he is super intelligent. Wario would have his hands full trying to fight Ridley. A giant ******** lizard is the kind of thing Wario fights on a day to day basis. A super intelligent dragon with super strength and fire breath is a different matter entirely.

Everything you just said I've covered multiple times now. Thoroughly.

So... are you just saying that Samus must be godly to regularly defeat Ridley and that Wario would not stand a chance against her then? If so, well, there's this video game call "Smash Bros" that would argue otherwise.

The implication of Smash Bros is that all of the playable characters in it are on equal footing, regardless of canon. If Samus, a character in Smash Bros, can defeat Ridley then he clearly isn't too powerful to be put into the game. That's just... a fact. Bottom line. Saying that "oh but it's a really tough fight" just means that he's close to Samus's power. It's good to hear that you think his power's close to that of the playable characters, though.

 

[Mr Lange]

They are official. The anime and manga are official. So they count. You don't get to decide.

The only Pokemon with a Trainer in Smash are Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard. According to canon that is... because that means so much. Secondly... Mewtwo has a better stat pool than any of them. So essentially you are saying that only PKMN Trainer can defeat Mewtwo because Ice Climbers can't get on the stadium and beat Mewtwo's *** themselves? No... in Smash canon anyone can fight anyone regardless of whatever constraints are in other games.

A level 50 Mewtwo would smoke a level 50 Charizard ANY day. It is a bad MU. Same with Ivy... really bad MU. Squirtle... don't make me laugh.

That is my point though. Canon doesn't matter in a franchise that mashes all other franchises. So Ridley being 1/4 of his usual size wouldn't hurt his Metroid canon. It would just establish some SSB4 canon. That is it.

Anime and Manga are not canon. The creator has stated this. Only the games are counted, as Game Freak only counts the game series. That is why Pokemon Trainer is not Ash.
SSB's canon adopts established canon. They are celebrating these existing canons and are making an effort to represent things believably yet faithfully. They won't do anything that breaks down a character too much.

 

[Morbi]

Anime and Manga are not canon. The creator has stated this. Only the games are counted, as Game Freak only counts the game series. That is why Pokemon Trainer is not Ash.
SSB's canon adopts established canon. They are celebrating these existing canons and are making an effort to represent things believably yet faithfully. They won't do anything that breaks down a character too much.

OK. If they aren't canon it doesn't even hurt my argument. I don't even know why you play Smash if you are so into canon. THE GAME DEFIES ALL CANON. So maybe you should stop playing it?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

As I've said many times I'm not against Ridley's inclusion.
And here we go again:

Rayquaza was resized for Smash. They made him bigger as a boss. In Pokemon Collosseum, Rayquaza is far smaller than Groudon and Kyogre, roughly the same size as one of the Legendary Dogs. He's even smaller than Lugia!

 

[Deleted member]

Except when they do and have already done more times than you can count on two fingers.

EDIT: Even your precious Rayquaza example.
Wouldn't GameFreak notice right away that Rayquaza, being the Sky High Pokémon, WAS SOMEHOW HIDING IN A LAKE?!?

And DIGGING UNDERGROUND?!?

How could they possibly let such things happen?
Unless.....
They really don't care.

And I don't see how any of Metroid's developers or even Smash's developers would care if Ridley wasn't the same size he was in Brawl.

 

[Morbi]

I have a more fun game... lets name what IS canon in Smash? What haven't they changed? It is a much harder game...

 

[Oasis_S]

By the way, the anime does influence Pokemon content in Smash. I mean, it's pretty clear Sakurai looked toward the movies and took Mewtwo and Lucario from them.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

UH.

So much non-canon material it hurts my head just thinking about it...

 

[Mr Lange]

Something gets ignored, I have to bring it back up or rewrite it.
Then someone reposts a point ignoring something else I already covered.
This keeps happening and I can't keep doing this. I wish you would read what I wrote before bringing most of these things up.
This is going nowhere. Some of you have good arguments. Some of you had good arguments that I've already deflated. But you or someone else fetches them from the corner of the room and desperately tries to re-inflate them as if nothing ever happened.
Half the points I make you don't understand. The other half you just outright ignore and slam your point back in front of it.
I've covered Olimar. I've covered Ridley's size variations from NES to Melee and all the size comparisons including Bowser. I've covered why some characters modifications work in Smash and why Ridley's would not in, and I've done so in every way feasible. If you want answers, read pages 124-126.

You're all going to act like this was some kind of pathetic victory. You've given me good things to think about and a fresh perspective on this subject but none of you have fully changed my mind.
I'm not a Ridley hater, I'd like to see him in Smash too. Hope you guys get it.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Smashboards. Tearing down your argument, one piece at a time

 

[LaniusShrike]

I have a more fun game... lets name what IS canon in Smash? What haven't they changed? It is a much harder game...

Well, let's see, let's start with Mario...

Main method of murder in canon is jumping on things, so that's... wait, no, not that one.

Well, he's always relied on awesome powerups in order to enhance his powers-- wait, he can use fireballs at-will in Smash? Hm.

The FLUDD pack! First, he goes into a pool of water and sucks it up... oh. No, not that one either.

He... he punches things sometimes. And he punches things in Smash too.

CANON.

 

[Deleted member]

Good. Your arguments were **** anyway and you really didn't discredit anything. Repeating horrible points don't make them any less horrible.

They only thing you've proven is that you have no functioning brain cells.

 

[Morbi]

Something gets ignored, I have to bring it back up or rewrite it.
Then someone reposts a point ignoring something else I already covered.
This keeps happening and I can't keep doing this. I wish you would read what I wrote before bringing most of these things up.
This is going nowhere. Some of you have good arguments. Some of you had good arguments that I've already deflated. But you or someone else fetches them from the corner of the room and desperately tries to re-inflate them as if nothing ever happened.
Half the points I make you don't understand. The other half you just outright ignore and slam your point back in front of it.
I've covered Olimar. I've covered Ridley's size variations from NES to Melee and all the size comparisons including Bowser. I've covered why some characters modifications work in Smash and why Ridley's would not in, and I've done so in every way feasible. If you want answers, read pages 124-126.

You're all going to act like this was some kind of pathetic victory. You've given me good things to think about and a fresh perspective on this subject but none of you have fully changed my mind.
I'm not a Ridley hater, I'd like to see him in Smash too. Hope you guys get it.

Thank the lord. I can't help but lol at this part though (highlighted). You just keep telling yourself that buddy. I think if half a dozen people are still not convinced that you made a logical argument it MIGHT MAYBE PROBABLY be possible that you didn't.

 

[Mr Lange]

You're all going to act like this was some kind of pathetic victory.

Oh look I'm right again.

 

[Morbi]

Oh look I'm right again.

It was the first thing you were right about...

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Oh look I'm right again.

Opinion.

I don't think it's pathetic. It's awesome actually

 

[Mr Lange]

It was the first thing you were right about...

If anyone bothered to pay attention to a single thing I wrote you would know it is one of many things I was right about.

 

[Deleted member]

Look, the little worm think's he's right again.
Let's point at him and laugh.

"I'm right and if you can't see that, you didn't pay attention, because I'm right! Did I mention I am right?"

Hey guys, know what's bigger than Ridley?
Mr Lange's ego!

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

If anyone bothered to pay attention to a single thing I wrote you would know it is one of many things I was right about.

We DID read what you said. We replied with counter arguments, which you are apparently ignoring.

Looks like YOU are the one not paying attention.

 

[Morbi]

If anyone bothered to pay attention to a single thing I wrote you would know it is one of many things I was right about.

How can you be right about something subjective? I am curious... really... I am!

 

[Deleted member]

I'm going to laugh so hard if this whole time, he was a 2nd alt of Noah.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

DAMN YOU MORBID! STOP LIKING ALL OF MY COMMENTS. MY ALERTS ARE FILLED WITH, "MORBIDALTRUISM LIKED YOUR COMMENT IN THE RIDLEY FOR SSB4 THREAD: THE MOST WANTED NINTENDO NEWCOMER" CAPS

 

[Mr Lange]

Look, the little worm think's he's right again.
Let's point at him and laugh.

You have done nothing but skate around everything I ever said and act like you crushed my arguments.
You're like a soccer player that picks up the ball mid game and throws it in the goal and brags about winning.

We DID read what you said. We replied with counter arguments, which you are apparently ignoring.

Looks like YOU are the one not paying attention.

All of your counter arguments are things I had already answered.
Again, and again, and again.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

You have done nothing but skate around everything I ever said and act like you crushed my arguments.
You're like a soccer player that picks up the ball mid game and throws it in the goal and brags about winning.

All of your counter arguments are things I had already answered.
Again, and again, and again.

I tend to disagree with you here. You may answer them, but answering =/= proving them wrong necessarily.

Oh, and cheating =/= actually deflating your arguments with sound logic.

 

[Deleted member]

You have done nothing but skate around everything I ever said and act like you crushed my arguments.
You're like a soccer player that picks up the ball mid game and throws it in the goal and brags about winning.

Could you be any more of a pathetic hypocrite?
Actually, don't answer. I already know; the answer is yes.

All of your counter arguments are things I had already answered.
Again, and again, and again.

A poor argument doesn't become good even the 100th time it's used.

 

[Mr Lange]

I tend to disagree with you here. You may answer them, but answering =/= proving them wrong necessarily.

Not that any of you were any more successful at doing this.

I do have a big ego Golden but that has nothing to do with what is going on here nor does it interfere with my debates. Have you payed attention to all of the posts saying I just want a fair discussion and it is not about being right just to prove who is right and wrong? You're the only one who views this as some kind of win or lose thing.

 

[Morbi]

So I think it is safe to say that Mr. Lange is Ridley's number 1 hater?

Just kidding... we read your posts. You actually want him... but you are horrible at playing Devil's Advocate. We get it.

 

[Mr Lange]

So I think it is safe to say that Mr. Lange is Ridley's number 1 hater?

Just kidding... we read your posts. You actually want him... but you are horrible at playing Devil's Advocate. We get it.

I won't argue for a character just because I want him. I could be making all of these same arguments in favor of Ridley that all of you have been making. How many of you could or would do the opposite?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Not that any of you were any more successful at doing this.

I do have a big ego Golden but that has nothing to do with what is going on here nor does it interfere with my debates. Have you payed attention to all of the posts saying I just want a fair discussion and it is not about being right just to prove who is right and wrong? You're the only one who views this as some kind of win or lose thing.

How is it fair if you accuse us of ignoring your posts? You act like the only reason we disagree with you is because we're stupid. You've basically ignored our reasoning.

I'd go through a list of things we replied with, but it's 2 am and I work at 9, so i'll list one.

You stated that Rayquaza would not fit because of his size in Smash Bros., as if that was the only size he's ever been. I replied with the fact that Rayquaza is a much smaller size in Pokemon Collosseum. However, now that I think about it, if we're only basing it off of Smash sizes, Ridley's size shouldn't matter, as in the Melee intro, he isn't too much larger than Samus.

Also, I thought you were done.

 

[Morbi]

I won't argue for a character just because I want him. I could be making all of these same arguments in favor of Ridley that all of you have been making. How many of you could or would do the opposite?

I honestly don't think I could make an anti-Ridley argument without being torn a new asshole. Mostly because there are no good ones as of yet.