The Root of Weakness

[Rebonack]

I like making topic titles that are nifty >_>

*ahem*

There are some characters in this game that are fast, powerful, and easily capable of ringing out a foe. And others that are not. The purpose of this thread is fairly simple. I would like to know from you, the Smash community, what the greatest weaknesses of the weak characters are.

Now mind, I'm not hunting for specifics. But rather general trends. What are the traits or lack of the low tier characters that make them so bad? The reason? I've got something of a pet project in mind and I want to make sure that the basic reasoning behind it is sound.

From my own observation I would say that there are three major failings among the low tier characters and a fair number of less important aspects.

1) Awkward kill moves I would say that this is probably the biggest failing of many of the lower tier character. Whether their kill moves are mostly too slow, too awkward, or simply lack range and priority, most of the bad characters have a great deal of trouble landing a killing blow.

2) Few kill moves period A bit different from the last point. Captain Falcon and Ganondorf both have a wide selection of attacks that can finish a foe off. But all of them are slow or awkward. Other characters either have attacks that only kill at fairly high percentages (Samus) or are limited to kill moves that are often stale due to use (Peach). Or they just plain lack kill moves in general (Sheik). Due to the knock-back decay in Brawl being stuck with kill moves that are also some of the best damage building moves serves as a major handicap to many characters.

3) Awful Recovery Olimar would be an absolute monster if not for his recovery. Link wouldn't be a monster, but he wouldn't be nearly as bad, either if not for his recovery. Most of the time people aren't going to be KOed in Brawl unless they're flung into the blast zone simply because of how floaty the game is. Being stuck with easily gimped recovery is thus a pretty major failing.

So there you go. My general take on the root of weakness in the less awesome of characters. Thoughts? Anything to add?

 

[kr3wman]

Spoiler

inb4 'MK has no weakness post hurf hurf hurf'

Falcon has a lack of a reliable 'all-around' move that does the job when you ask for it. And priority. and range.

 

[Hive]

samus- her lack of ko moves, and how situational/punishable her moves are in close range combat I think are her two main weaknesses...
In an extreme case against ddd for example her dtilt doesn't ko on stage until like 160%+ @.@ lol plus in order to use them (dtilt, fsmash, charged shot) usually she'll have to approach or stall to be able to pull one off... which is extremely punishable

 

[FireKirby7]

4) Stupid and unreasonable grab releases.

 

[ndayday]

The weight of the character is a pretty important factor.

 

[Rebonack]

Considering that some of the best characters in the game (MK, G&W) are very light I don't think that weight has that much of an impact when all is said and done. Some effect certainly, though not as much of one as things like, say, easily punished moves.

That's another nasty one. Attacks that aren't safe. Poor 'dorf is pretty much a perfect example of this. Nearly all of his attacks are punishable.

 

[C.J.]

Lack of a good approach. The characters that can approach well or effectively force an opponent to approach are higher up on the tier list.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Running speed and weight are pretty much the reasons Jigglypuff sucks at brawl.

Also her sucky ground game and awful smashes and tilts.

 

[bribri123123]

I think weight DOES have ALOT to do with gameplay, etc.

 

[CRASHiC]

Running speed and weight are pretty much the reasons Jigglypuff sucks at brawl.

Also her sucky ground game and awful smashes and tilts.

Jiggy should ALWAYS stick to the air.
Her air speed is high. this means one big thing. NO TRIPPING

There are many ways for Jiggs to never touch the ground, and even more are coming. Sing will no long be just a taunt. Jiggs is rising yall.

 

[Johnny Pteran]

Well, with Captain Falcon:

All his moves are laggy, unreliable, he has no good approaches, not very many good punishers, horrible grab range, mediocre recovery, and most if not all of his kill moves are too slow to be reliable.

 

[XienZo]

You did NOT just call Olimar low-tier.

 

[Drig786]

i hate the short lag when toon link catchs his boomerang i just want to quickly do my next move

 

[CRASHiC]

The roots of strengths: be able to exploit the aspects of the gaming system.

Example, in Melee, all top tier characters have easy access to combos.

The roots of weaknesses: either unable to exploit the system or be easily exploited.

Example: Bowser is easily combed in Melee and slow and has less access to combos.

 

[trev94]

HOW QUICK the character is

 

[bribri123123]

HOW QUICK the character is

That is true, but Ike is slow, but very strong

 

[trev94]

That is true, but Ike is slow, but very strong

yea but if he fights a good Dk player his done for. Dk is an unestimated charcter. He is quick fast and strong, not bad at jumping ethier. I would keep my eye on him when I play him in a match. I mean come on he has everthing a good chracter should have.

 

[bribri123123]

yea but if he fights a good Dk player his done for. Dk is an unestimated charcter. He is quick fast and strong, not bad at jumping ethier. I would keep my eye on him when I play him in a match. I mean come on he has everthing a good chracter should have.

Yes, but against a good Ike player the match would end quickly...

 

[trev94]

Yes, but against a good Ike player the match would end quickly...

i would have to disagree. I think it would be even. Dk is just as strong as Ike. I think it would be a fun and introesting match to watch.

 

[CRASHiC]

HOW QUICK the character is

King Dededee

 

[trev94]

Yes, but against a good Ike player the match would end quickly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT8OZ6M3D7g

 

[thespymachine]

Basically: The lack of the ability to kill efficiently (compared to the other characters) and/or easily exploited (gimpable, out prioritized, light weight, too big, lag after attacks, etc) are the weaknesses of not so good characters.

 

[Rebonack]

You did NOT just call Olimar low-tier.

No, I didn't.

I said that he would be significantly better if not for his recovery. And he would be.

Trouble killing seems to be the main reoccurring theme among the weaker characters, though the precise reason they have trouble killing covers a pretty wide set of specifics.

 

[XienZo]

No, I didn't.

I said that he would be significantly better if not for his recovery. And he would be.

OK, just making sure.

 

[AndreVeloso]

There are safe characters (Mario, Kirby & Pikachu) who have a good recovery, low weight and average low-lag killing moves.
When a character gets more powerful, some of this is sacrificed. There are heavy-weight characters (Bowser, Ganondorf & Link) who have a lesser recovery, and powerful have powerful high-lag killing moves. This is compensated with a higher weight however.
There are "light-weight" characters (Peach, Pit & Yoshi) who have a hard time knocking out enemies. However, they gain lag-free moves and safe recoveries.

This spreads to both ends of the "weight" spectrum. But as the source of weakness doesn't just lie in light and heavy weight classes where extremes of lag or weight are increased, but in a characters overall appearance.

What makes a Kirby and a Metaknight different? They both have similar weight, jumping ability (Metaknight just having a slight better recovery and range, but Kirby has powers Metaknight doesn't possess) and just overall play. But apart from Metaknight's obvious strength's, look at Kirby's weaknesses. He is just too "safe." There is very little extreme to take advantage of. There is no possessing power which makes him special to other characters. Metaknight has an extreme of low-laggy, rangy, priority attacks (way too many) but Kirby mainly loses out on having a unique ability causing the metaknight user to think "I really need to watch out for this."

I am not trying to make any assumptions towards any match-ups as this was merely an example, but what i am trying to prove is weaknesses (high-lag, light, low killing power) are not the only source of weaknesses, but having a lack of weakness itself is also a problem (the exception is Metaknight), as this doesn't allow a strength in other extreme categories.

 

[Nicole]

recovery is the number 1 weakness (or strength) in brawl IMO. you don't have to have the greatest recovery out there, but i'd say the horizontal/vertical distance your recovery CAN go is probably the largest strength/weakness. meta knight, ddd, g&w, even snake (though people say his recovery isn't great, most snakes recover high, where no one can reach 'em)...if you hit those guys, and they don't die, they're coming back. course, falco is probably the exception to that high tier + good recovery theory i just came up with.

 

[Johnny Pteran]

Trouble killing seems to be the main reoccurring theme among the weaker characters, though the precise reason they have trouble killing covers a pretty wide set of specifics.

The exception is MK, who has plenty of lag-free kill moves.

Which is one of the reasons he's top tier.

 

[AranOcean]

The exception is MK, who has plenty of lag-free kill moves.

Which is one of the reasons he's top tier.

That's why we all hate MK.

 

[Rebonack]

Less recovery and more the ability to stay alive.

Some characters are light, but can recover from anywhere and are very hard to gimp like MK and G&W. Others like D3 and Snake just never die.

There are plenty of others who have no trouble staying alive, though they're further down on the list due to their lack of reliable KO moves or just an all around unsafe move-set. The only character whose recovery is something of a deal breaker seem to be those who have only a tether recovery.

It's a combination of factors. 'tis why I listed three points in my opening post. Look at the two undisputed best characters. Both Snake and MK are quite adept at staying alive. Both have numerous reliable kill moves and damage racking options. MK has safe approach ability and Snake has powerful stage control.