Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
'The Wise Ganon' (Moveset & Competitive Discussion)
Rather than discussing Ganon's capabilities, problems and whatnot in multiple threads (I counted 3), let's put everything in one.
@
Z1GMA
@
A2ZOMG
@
Vermanubis
@
Bahamut777
come here.
I'll update this OP and make it neater as we get more talking & time goes by.
www.Xat.com/Ganondorf_Brawlers - Chatroom
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*NOTE: Before reading whatever is written, you should understand that the game may have balance changes which can possibly change anything stated below. - Source, Credits to @
Daeyrat
Ganon's techniques:
Aerial Gerudo Pull Back: You can pull your aerial flame choke backwards. This is good for ledge Ganoncides.
Flame Choke Follow Ups: *Note: Many of these follow ups can be avoided by teching and are determined by the input roll or getup attack the opponent chooses.
(http://imgur.com/9LhItgJ - for website view)
Character Jab F-tilt D-tilt
Bowser Yes Yes Yes
Bowser Jr. Yes Yes Yes
Captain Falcon No No HYES
Charizard Yes Yes Yes
Dark Pit No Yes Yes
DDD Yes Yes Yes
Diddy Kong No Yes Yes
Donkey Kong Yes Yes Yes
Dr. Mario No Yes Yes
Duck Hunt Yes Yes Yes
Falco Yes Yes Yes
Fox No Yes Yes
Game & Watch Yes Yes Yes
Ganondorf No Yes Yes
Greninja No No Yes
Ike No Yes Yes
Jigglypuff Yes Yes Yes
Kirby Yes Yes Yes
Link Yes Yes Yes
Little Mac No No Yes
Lucario Yes Yes Yes
Lucina No No Yes
Luigi No Yes Yes
Mario No Yes Yes
Marth No No Yes
Megaman No Yes Yes
Metaknight Yes Yes Yes
Mii Brawler Yes Yes Yes
Mii Gunner Yes Yes Yes
Mii Swordsman Yes Yes Yes
Ness No Yes Yes
Olimar Yes Yes Yes
Pacman Yes Yes Yes
Palutena No No Yes
Peach No No Yes
Pikachu Yes Yes Yes
Pit No Yes Yes
R.O.B. Yes Yes Yes
Robin No No Yes
Rosalina No No Yes
Samus Yes Yes Yes
Sheik No No Yes
Shulk Yes Yes Yes
Sonic No Yes Yes
Toon Link No Yes Yes
Villager No Yes Yes
Wario Yes Yes Yes
WFT No No Yes
Yoshi Yes Yes Yes
Zelda No No Yes
ZSS No No Yes
Ryu & Roy: No follow ups
Mewtwo: Jab, D-tilt on tech away
Lucas: D-tilt & F-tilt (credits to @adom4)
- Posted and submitted by @rahsosprout
Moves that hit Ganon's ledge hang: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hJGGMml_-YLuxAJHFhK5Zpj729pqEb5FEhBjc_SRsN0/edit#gid=0
Air choke follow ups: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K0nN9ktorpxb_S5NSa6eOVqoiax-pV32tVAyg5_Hecg/edit#gid=0
^ By @adom4
Tip Against Rob:
GYRUDO (Gerudo > Gyro Down Toss)
Ok, so I messed around with ROB's Gyro today, and Ganon can do some freaky stuff with it.
While holding the Gyro:
Gyrudo > pick up > FToss
I recommend Smash Tossing as it deals more damage and comboes more reliably during the FToss.
It does a whopping 36%.
Best thing about it, except the nasty damage, is that it works from like 0 to 80%, so it's not really a %-dependant combo.
Kills very early by the ledges as hit as the FToss its ROB while he's already close to the Blast Zone.
There are more combos as well, but they either aren't as reliable, does less damage, does only work on very low %s, or doesn't true combo.
Gyrudo > Wizkick 35%
Gyrudo > iDA (weak) + pick up > FToss > iDA (Strong) 60% (Not very reliable.)
^ Posted By @
Z1GMA
*sob*
- Posted and submitted by @Mister
Character's who are Hit by SH BAIR on the Ground:
HeavyLobster
What not to do:
Aerial Gerudo: Do not use aerial gerudo against Jigglypuff (and others?). She's able to tech and attack right out of it. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8zn9fr3BDE - Credits to @
A2ZOMG
, discovered by Japanese players
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Ganon's advanced techniques:
Cancelling Lag with Specials (Special Lag Cancel, SLC): You can cancel Ganon's forward air animation lag from a full hop with any B move (the hardest of these to do is down B, as it requires perfect timing so that you don't fast fall).
Gerudo Ledge Lag Cancelling/Cancel: Okay there's a new advanced technique that was carried over from Brawl but with a few differences.
Gerudo Ledge Lag Cancelling/Cancel (GLLC) Similar to what Z1GMA pointed out in another thread, where Ganon can cancel full hop fair's lag with any B move.
In Brawl when Ganon was on the ledge, if he would DJ > UAir he would just fall down without grabbing the ledge, but if he DJ > UAir > Gerudo towards the ledge he instantly grabbed it.
In Smash 4 the ledge mechanics are different as we all know, no character can DJ and regrab the ledge after having grabbed it once until a short while later, but similar to Brawl if Ganon were to DJ to UAir, and now even BAir > gerudo towards the ledge he would grab it almost instantly this time.
But the what I really want to point out is that, in Brawl if you were to run off stage near the ledge and Uair and Bair you would grab the ledge after the animation, and this was only possible for the Nair and Dair if you GLLCed, and this was not possible for the Fair at all.
In Smash 4 it's a bit different. If you full hop any aerial off stage near the ledge, Ganon would grab the ledge instantly. But if you short hop any aerial, Ganon will only regrab the ledge if it was from an Uair (in Brawl this was possible with both sh uair and bair, with sh nair and dair if you gllced, and not with sh fair at all, as I mentioned above).
But in Smash 4 if you SH off stage and GLLC you can grab the ledge instantly instead of avoiding it with ALL aerial moves, including the Fair this time.
GLLC was very underrated in Brawl, and only a few Ganon (like Ijosh) for example really abused it. In this game it seems like it'll be very situational, but being able to grab the ledge after any sh aerial near the edge (even after hitting your opponent) can do you wonders in advanced levels of game play.
- Submitted by @
Ray_Kalm
DACUS: https://vine.co/v/OAQtn1qE1L1 - Discovered by Japanese Ganons, credits to @Bloodynite
The Hell Drop: Summary of AT: From what it looks like, you can platform drop to aerial wizkick the lower level below you. But that's not the weird part. The weird part is you are able to do this in such a way that you Quake the platform, and then it INSTANTLY CANCELS leaving you airborne, which you can use to attack people below you with aerials almost instantly and other tricks.
Situational, but it certainly does make Ganondorf a lot scarier near platforms because not only can you reach people below you pretty efficiently, you have threatening mixups on people that are next to you on platforms. Now we need a new frightening name for this. I'm thinking something on the lines of the Hell Drop (as opposed to Platform Drop). - Submitted by @
A2ZOMG
, founded by Japanese Ganons
Video: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24502089 (Watch till the end)
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Ganon's Match-ups:
Find a discussion of match-ups in this thread.
From worst to best (so far):
Rosalina: 35:65
Yoshi: 45:55
Luigi: 45:55
Peach: 45:55
Mario: 50:50
Bowser: 50:50
Mean: 46.67/53.33 (How Ganon fairs overall against the cast)
Mode: 50:50 (Neutral match-ups most common)
Median: 45:55 (The Middle Value, not really important)
Worst: 35:65 (Rosalina)
Best: 50:50 (Bowser, Mario)
Game Effects:
The Rage Effect:
Oh, and if vectoring is worth a mention here, I think the new info regarding "rage effect" should be added. It actually has a lot to do with the implementation of vectoring. If you've not heard yet, apparently "rage effect" is basically a new game mechanic where your moves have higher knockback the higher your damage. So if say Ganon uses his uncharged upsmash on a character with 0%, he will launch them higher if his percent is higher. The same move on the same enemy with the same damage could be an almost kill if you're at 50%, but a kill if you're at 150%. I think this could favor Ganon pretty well. He has the tools to kill at low percents keeping his enemies from utilizing their knockback buff from "rage effect" at high percents. While at the same time, his great weight will allow him to survive into higher percents better, for the most part, and give him a chance to punish even harder with his already devastating attacks. I think it stops effecting knockback around 150 though. I'll link a vid explaining better... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZPxLLaL4N8 - Posted by @
jahkzheng
-------------------
I was reading a post about the new replacement to directional influence called vectoring. I recommend you read it too, it's a very interesting new aspect. To understand what I'm about to say you'll have to read the first half at least.
I stumbled upon this paragraph: "For explanation purposes, let's assume the percentage of this is 20%. You are hit by an Upsmash whose knockback value at your current percentage is 100. For simplicity's sake, the trajectory of this attack is 90 degrees, straight upward. You are holding down, which grants you a vector downwards of 20 (units per frame, I'm just going to use numbers from now on)."
Basically, vectoring is you altering the amount of knockback you receive based on the percentage of damage you were at, and the power of the move used against you. The knockback of the power of a move is, of course, determined by your weight, the damage percentage you have, and how stale that move is beforehand. Vectoring properly against horizontal attacks is very similar to how one would DI them in previous smash games, but vectoring properly against vertical attacks is completely different.
This new replacement of directional influence will definitely benefit vertical heavy hitters more, and more so for moves that hit VERY hard vertically (say Ganon's Aerial Wizkick KOing Robin at 90% off the ground). Vectoring is less helpful when you are at lower percentages, and more helpful when you are at higher percentages. Characters find it tougher and tougher to kill as percentages go up.
Hopefully you're all following along. I'm sure you've seen many replays of the game, and you've noticed that sometimes the players have a very hard time KOing each other despite the very high percentages. This is, as stated above, because of vectoring & coupled with the stale factor of a move.
Simply put, If a decent vertical knockback move should KO your opponent at 130%, your opponent can vector his or her way to saving him or herself much more efficiently than he or she can from a much harder hitting vertical knockback move that should KO at 90%.
KOs will be much more early out of just the sheer knockback power of some heavy hitting moves and we'll see vectoring of many KOing moves, that don't hit as hard, at very high percentages.
Note, all that I mentioned above is when and if you vector 'DOWN' not 'UP'.
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About Ganon. I think he has improved a lot and will be above a few characters away from the bottom. He will most likely end up lowest mid-tier OR higher. I can assure you that he will not be last. It is way too soon to make any assumptions.
The fact that his weight has increased along with his speed is very significant. Why? In Brawl he had trouble for a good OOS option, the opposing players would play around your shield and force Ganon to constantly reset his position away from his main attack zone, and along with that he would get comboed easily and put off stage very early. In Smash 4 the fact that off stage as a whole has changed may actually give Ganon advantages over some characters. His new jab speed, and his weight and speed increases will make him more formidable on-stage, as now he'll be able to stay there longer and force people away from his shield more often unlike Brawl. I've also noticed that his Jab puts his opponents in positions where they are more vulnerable than they are safe, this is because jab now has a FTilt-like fixed pushback knocking the opponents downwards. Ganon can still kill quite early in most situations, but in some situations he will not kill as early as he would have in Brawl (but that may actually be worth the trade for the benefits Ganon has gotten).
His dash attack, though weaker, is faster and has a new 'down below' hitbox. - This means that characters with good edge games (Villager) will not be able to take as much advantage as Ganon can swoop them right off the ledge - thus forcing a good player to be on stage more. Ganon can also force people to land fast, because of a few quick aerials, and then take advantage with IASA frames on ground too.
Your opponent will most likely be hitting you more often than you hit them but that doesn't matter, Ganon only has to land a few good hits to get a kill, and he can do so much more reliably than he can in Brawl. His game style will be similar to Brawl, but with much easier initiation and much bigger rewards. Be patient, and attack. Be patient, and attack. Be patient, and attack. Be patient, and then kill.
I don't see Ganondorf being last, not at all. He has improved and will definitely be better than at least a dozen characters.
Ganon has possibly the best surprise gimp game. He can gimp with tipman (tip of his UAir and the hitbox close to the tip, there are two for those who don't know). He can do this so fast and out of nowhere that your opponent won't except it. His UAir is even better this game, it is very strong and comes out faster. It can be combed into from a dash attack due to long hitstun. NAir is also a gimp move now, both or any one of the two hits. Using it out of wizard foot is surprisingly useful now.
FAir is a wonderful move. It is useful this game. It still has the brawl method use, where you would jump below or in front your opponent and wait for them to drop their shield. It can combo into itself on mid-high percentage. It is surprisingly fast, safe on many shields, and doesn't have as much lag as it did in Brawl.
Also, something I've noticed about the two moves are, when you're in the air, say in front of your opponent, two of the things your opponent can do is try attacking you or try spacing away or with an attack. UAir and FAir mixup can punish both those options. UAir will hit them before they hit you, and FAir will get them if they try spacing away.
WDK and Flame Choke are huge game changers for Ganon. This changes his whole style as a character. Couple these moves with a now useful neutral B and a killer Up + B. Warlock Sword - this move has massive range, kill potential, and super armour. Reverse kills much faster than the normal position. This itself is huge for Ganon mains because this gives us an extra option, Brawl dorfs would never use Warlock Punch unless if it's for punishing shields or recovery. Dark fists is going to be more of a surprise kill move now, super armour on the first hit and then a killer uppercut, it also travels more upwards than Dark Dive.
Most of Ganon's hits do as much damage as many characters can achieve with 3 to even 4 hits. Each hit you get with Ganon feels like a combo, and the fact that the above custom moves give him more viable options for things he couldn't normally do makes him even deadlier.
I think even without custom moves Ganon would be pretty viable. But with custom moves he is definitely more viable.
Ganondorf has improved greatly. He has some very great pros, but also a few horrible cons.
Pros:
- He has more reliable ways to get KOs now
- He lives longer not just because of the new edge mechanics, but he is generally heavier.
- He feels more like Brawl Donkey Kong with heavy weight and early surprise kills.
- BAir resets his stance in the air to facing forward relatively well and quick, much like Marth's FAir in Brawl
- FTilt resets his spacing in the ground relatively fast and quick, and can actually give him situational advantages over the opponent
- His damage input is much higher per move, most of his moves can equal up to 2-3 opponent's moves
- His FTilt can automatically put some characters in positions in which they will not recover
- Wizard Kick is relatively quicker and does not get punished on lower percentages like it would in Brawl. It can also be used to punish rolls.
- You can control whether you want to Ganoncide or not if you grab your opponent on the ledge, and Ganoncide will always result in your victory now
- Has a wide variety of moves, all but a few kill. (B-Throw grab is the only kill potential grab)
- Can DACUS 1/3rd of FD now
- NAir comes out quicker and can surprise opponents and help get out of combos
- Aerial Wizkick can kill quite early
- Good against characters who can not apply heavy safe shield pressure (For example Lucario has a harder time shield pressuring as compared to Yoshi's amazing shield pressure)
That said, he has a few very horrible cons and these cons can be taken advantage of quite easily.
Cons:
- Very vulnerable to good projectile camping tools
- Shielding at spot and guessing what Ganon will do - you do not need to approach him, but at times he can force you to approach
- Horrible at face length as he has no quick out of shield option, quick jabbers and grabbers can attack him before his he time to react
- Gimpable recovery - if he is put off stage by a throw or a move, he can have a hard time recovering
- Combo easy, probably one of the easiest characters to combo at lower
percentages due to heavy build.
Ganon is the third slowest character in this game, a bump up from second slowest in Brawl (above only Jigglypuff, who would spend most of her time in the air anyway). The two slower ground speed characters this game are Jigglypuff and Robin.
His fastest walk speed is the second slowest, above just Jigglypuff.
Scenarios in which Wizard Foot is better than Wizard Drop Kick:
Wizard Foot:
In the air: Provides a safezone below, this coupled with the massive killing power it has benefits Ganon greatly. If you had WDK in this position (in the air), you would simply have the option to retreat behind the opponent - and that can get predictable. Your opponent may be able to bait that out, and knows that he can play under you more often.
On the ground during early percentages: Coupled with flame choke, can limit the what your opponent can do. Your can't simply stand in shield or roll away unpunished. WDK is less effective in this situation because, not only can it get you punished during early percentages, but it can only really punish rolls if they are at a particular distance, while Wizard Foot can punish rolls near normal flame choke distance (much closer to Ganon).
On the ground: Can get you some very good follow up with cancels, or with the jump you get off air. WDK can get cancelled as well, but requires precise position, the two directions of the stages every time. Wizard Foot can hit, and still get a cancel - which is the bulk of Ganon's combo game.
Momentum stoppage: The existence of the stoppage of Ganon's momentum in the air helps Ganon. Although good players shouldn't be getting hit, just being able to stop Ganon's momentum with knockback below you limits what the opponent can do.
This is just a few examples of why Wizard Foot may be better in many scenarios. I can actually go on about particular match-ups, and more examples.
After having tested his moves out quite a lot, my opinion on what his best custom moves are have changed. Though, remember, all of his custom moves have unique uses and each one may all be very useful for different match-ups, and even be switched around during the same match-ups if your opponent switches. The custom move which I find to be the worst is Wizard's Assault, in the air it has a straight downward hit which always spikes (seems good when used right at the ledge), but the move is just too slow and predictable both on the ground and in the air.
Forward B: Flame Wave is an underestimated move. I didn't think this before, but the move KOS. Yes, it KOS very early. The move starts up like a flame choke, but goes a smaller distance and has a bigger start-up time and more overall lag. It does 8% more damage than a normal flamechoke on the ground, and 5% more damage than an aerial flamechoke. I believe that in the competitive scene, Ganon's forward B customs will be the most interchangeable. All 3 of them have very good and useful uses.
Upwards B: Dark Fists seems to be the best here, but before I go into it, I want to mention that Dark Vault (two grabs special) seems kinda very good, but also kinda mehish. I say this because, it gives Ganon another command grab along with his others, and has the ability to grab twice, it also goes higher in distance, which can help Ganon in those positions which he'll usually not be able to recover back. Though the bad factor about the grab seem to out weigh the good. No uppercut, only 4% damage per grab (for Ganon standard, that's horrible), though the grab potential on stages with platforms is amazing the RCO lag and normal lag on stage if used is horrible. Now to Dark Fists. Dark Fists is amazing, it's a move that can scare the opponent into not messing with Ganon off stage, and it has the ability to setup kills even by taking a hit on stage! If you keep the normal wizard kick, flame wave, and warlock sword/punch along with this move, then nearly every move in Ganon's arsenal can kill.
Neutral B: Warlock Thrust. Yes. Warlock Thrust is probably his option. Warlock Thrust is probably the closest move to a projectile Ganon has. Underestimated, and in a quite decently fast paced game like Smash 4, you need faster moves. Warlock Thrust is like a very laggy flame-thrower, or more like a flame burst, but with darkness. It hits not only a good amount of range in front of you, it can hit opponents on platforms. Even then, I'd prefer this on stages with no platforms because of the disjointed 'projectile-like' range it has. The move won't ever kill though, it is good to use in unique situations (usually when your opponent is on a platform). This move can hit your opponent standing on the highest platform in Battlefield if you're standing on one of the two lower ones. The move has a different number of hitboxes, but all of which cancels if any other one hits. Damage ranges from 21% - 9% (reverse included). Warlock Sword is still not out of the box here, but I don't think a good player should get hit by that move at higher levels of play.
Downwards B: Wizard Kick default. I prefer this, and I also believe this to be Ganon's best down special. Wizard Drop Kick is amazing, don't get me wrong, and especially now when people don't know what to expect, but as the metagame develops the move will get more and more predictable, and the fact the it erases any early approach or 'fluke' options for Ganon is a horrible nerf for Ganon. I mentioned this elsewhere with a discussion with @Thinkaman, but I'll mention it again, Ganon's default kick also has intense kill power in a downward angle below him in the air, and this is hugely beneficial for a character like Ganon in so many ways.
Good stuff. Here you can find the frame data of about every character and of most of their moves.
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
Ganon's Jab is 8 frames on startup as we all thought. Dash attack is surprisingly fast at 10 frames at startup. Ftilt 10 frames. Utilt hits on frame 6 but initiates at frame 79. Dtilt is frame 10 startup.
Dsmash is his fastest smash with the same reach horizontally as fsmash at 15 frames start up. Fsmash and Usmash both start up at 21 frames (which is actually pretty fast and safe, considering the power and the push back they give shields). Normally, Dtilt could and should be used at moments when only dsmash could hit the opponent. Dsmash is a good roll teaser though.
I am surprised that uair comes out at the 6th frame, faster than nair's 7th frame. Bair is 10 frames, dair is 16 and fair is 14.
Here is a guide by @
Xinc
The Shadow Realm stage guide by @Hi-Hatz
The King's Domain stage guide by @_Magus_
Grab Game guide by @_Magus_
Rather than discussing Ganon's capabilities, problems and whatnot in multiple threads (I counted 3), let's put everything in one.
@
Z1GMA
@
A2ZOMG
@
Vermanubis
@
Bahamut777
come here.I'll update this OP and make it neater as we get more talking & time goes by.
www.Xat.com/Ganondorf_Brawlers - Chatroom
-------------------------------------------------------------------
*NOTE: Before reading whatever is written, you should understand that the game may have balance changes which can possibly change anything stated below. - Source, Credits to @
Daeyrat
Ganon's techniques:
Aerial Gerudo Pull Back: You can pull your aerial flame choke backwards. This is good for ledge Ganoncides.
Flame Choke Follow Ups: *Note: Many of these follow ups can be avoided by teching and are determined by the input roll or getup attack the opponent chooses.
(http://imgur.com/9LhItgJ - for website view)
Character Jab F-tilt D-tilt
Bowser Yes Yes Yes
Bowser Jr. Yes Yes Yes
Captain Falcon No No HYES
Charizard Yes Yes Yes
Dark Pit No Yes Yes
DDD Yes Yes Yes
Diddy Kong No Yes Yes
Donkey Kong Yes Yes Yes
Dr. Mario No Yes Yes
Duck Hunt Yes Yes Yes
Falco Yes Yes Yes
Fox No Yes Yes
Game & Watch Yes Yes Yes
Ganondorf No Yes Yes
Greninja No No Yes
Ike No Yes Yes
Jigglypuff Yes Yes Yes
Kirby Yes Yes Yes
Link Yes Yes Yes
Little Mac No No Yes
Lucario Yes Yes Yes
Lucina No No Yes
Luigi No Yes Yes
Mario No Yes Yes
Marth No No Yes
Megaman No Yes Yes
Metaknight Yes Yes Yes
Mii Brawler Yes Yes Yes
Mii Gunner Yes Yes Yes
Mii Swordsman Yes Yes Yes
Ness No Yes Yes
Olimar Yes Yes Yes
Pacman Yes Yes Yes
Palutena No No Yes
Peach No No Yes
Pikachu Yes Yes Yes
Pit No Yes Yes
R.O.B. Yes Yes Yes
Robin No No Yes
Rosalina No No Yes
Samus Yes Yes Yes
Sheik No No Yes
Shulk Yes Yes Yes
Sonic No Yes Yes
Toon Link No Yes Yes
Villager No Yes Yes
Wario Yes Yes Yes
WFT No No Yes
Yoshi Yes Yes Yes
Zelda No No Yes
ZSS No No Yes
Ryu & Roy: No follow ups
Mewtwo: Jab, D-tilt on tech away
Lucas: D-tilt & F-tilt (credits to @adom4)
- Posted and submitted by @rahsosprout
Ganon's Frame Data:From http://sns.prtls.jp/smashterra/newly_diary_login.html?id=398&did=034b3a35167de914b
You get NO followups on the following:
Jab only on:
D-tilt only on:
D-tilt and F-tilt on:
D-tilt and F-tilt and Jab on:
D-smash
Ryu & Roy: No follow ups
Mewtwo: Jab, D-tilt on tech away
Lucas: D-tilt & F-tilt
The tests do not include Miis, Shulk's Monado arts, and how DI affects followups (especially the D-smash one on Olimar). Dash Attack was not tested either due to difficulty of input on a 3DS. I can't really understand the other remarks they made given I'm working with google translate.
They also call the testing preliminary, and that things may be wrong or missing. I'll be editing this either when I hear word from anyone that there are corrections.
I'm personally keeping my eye on this, just for curiosity's sake. Good to know there's Japanese enthusiasm for Ganondorf at least.
^ - Posted entirely by @Big O
Moves that hit Ganon's ledge hang: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hJGGMml_-YLuxAJHFhK5Zpj729pqEb5FEhBjc_SRsN0/edit#gid=0
Air choke follow ups: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K0nN9ktorpxb_S5NSa6eOVqoiax-pV32tVAyg5_Hecg/edit#gid=0
^ By @adom4
Tip Against Rob:
GYRUDO (Gerudo > Gyro Down Toss)
Ok, so I messed around with ROB's Gyro today, and Ganon can do some freaky stuff with it.
While holding the Gyro:
Gyrudo > pick up > FToss
I recommend Smash Tossing as it deals more damage and comboes more reliably during the FToss.
It does a whopping 36%.
Best thing about it, except the nasty damage, is that it works from like 0 to 80%, so it's not really a %-dependant combo.
Kills very early by the ledges as hit as the FToss its ROB while he's already close to the Blast Zone.
There are more combos as well, but they either aren't as reliable, does less damage, does only work on very low %s, or doesn't true combo.
Gyrudo > Wizkick 35%
Gyrudo > iDA (weak) + pick up > FToss > iDA (Strong) 60% (Not very reliable.)
^ Posted By @
Z1GMA
*sob*Ganon's UTilt hit and Wizardkick cancelling Positions:I forgot to put it here lol, here's a compilation of google docs about Ganon data,
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...kM76Bf74jvhM8OV_PU78dCWNGw/edit#gid=527703575
- Posted and submitted by @Mister
Character's who are Hit by SH BAIR on the Ground:
^ Submitted by @
HeavyLobster
What not to do:
Aerial Gerudo: Do not use aerial gerudo against Jigglypuff (and others?). She's able to tech and attack right out of it. Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8zn9fr3BDE - Credits to @
A2ZOMG
, discovered by Japanese players------------------------------------------------------------------
Ganon's advanced techniques:
Cancelling Lag with Specials (Special Lag Cancel, SLC): You can cancel Ganon's forward air animation lag from a full hop with any B move (the hardest of these to do is down B, as it requires perfect timing so that you don't fast fall).
Gerudo Ledge Lag Cancelling/Cancel: Okay there's a new advanced technique that was carried over from Brawl but with a few differences.
Gerudo Ledge Lag Cancelling/Cancel (GLLC) Similar to what Z1GMA pointed out in another thread, where Ganon can cancel full hop fair's lag with any B move.
In Brawl when Ganon was on the ledge, if he would DJ > UAir he would just fall down without grabbing the ledge, but if he DJ > UAir > Gerudo towards the ledge he instantly grabbed it.
In Smash 4 the ledge mechanics are different as we all know, no character can DJ and regrab the ledge after having grabbed it once until a short while later, but similar to Brawl if Ganon were to DJ to UAir, and now even BAir > gerudo towards the ledge he would grab it almost instantly this time.
But the what I really want to point out is that, in Brawl if you were to run off stage near the ledge and Uair and Bair you would grab the ledge after the animation, and this was only possible for the Nair and Dair if you GLLCed, and this was not possible for the Fair at all.
In Smash 4 it's a bit different. If you full hop any aerial off stage near the ledge, Ganon would grab the ledge instantly. But if you short hop any aerial, Ganon will only regrab the ledge if it was from an Uair (in Brawl this was possible with both sh uair and bair, with sh nair and dair if you gllced, and not with sh fair at all, as I mentioned above).
But in Smash 4 if you SH off stage and GLLC you can grab the ledge instantly instead of avoiding it with ALL aerial moves, including the Fair this time.
GLLC was very underrated in Brawl, and only a few Ganon (like Ijosh) for example really abused it. In this game it seems like it'll be very situational, but being able to grab the ledge after any sh aerial near the edge (even after hitting your opponent) can do you wonders in advanced levels of game play.
- Submitted by @
Ray_Kalm
DACUS: https://vine.co/v/OAQtn1qE1L1 - Discovered by Japanese Ganons, credits to @Bloodynite
The Hell Drop: Summary of AT: From what it looks like, you can platform drop to aerial wizkick the lower level below you. But that's not the weird part. The weird part is you are able to do this in such a way that you Quake the platform, and then it INSTANTLY CANCELS leaving you airborne, which you can use to attack people below you with aerials almost instantly and other tricks.
Situational, but it certainly does make Ganondorf a lot scarier near platforms because not only can you reach people below you pretty efficiently, you have threatening mixups on people that are next to you on platforms. Now we need a new frightening name for this. I'm thinking something on the lines of the Hell Drop (as opposed to Platform Drop). - Submitted by @
A2ZOMG
, founded by Japanese GanonsVideo: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm24502089 (Watch till the end)
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Ganon's Match-ups:
Find a discussion of match-ups in this thread.
From worst to best (so far):
Rosalina: 35:65
Yoshi: 45:55
Luigi: 45:55
Peach: 45:55
Mario: 50:50
Bowser: 50:50
Mean: 46.67/53.33 (How Ganon fairs overall against the cast)
Mode: 50:50 (Neutral match-ups most common)
Median: 45:55 (The Middle Value, not really important)
Worst: 35:65 (Rosalina)
Best: 50:50 (Bowser, Mario)
Game Effects:
The Rage Effect:
Oh, and if vectoring is worth a mention here, I think the new info regarding "rage effect" should be added. It actually has a lot to do with the implementation of vectoring. If you've not heard yet, apparently "rage effect" is basically a new game mechanic where your moves have higher knockback the higher your damage. So if say Ganon uses his uncharged upsmash on a character with 0%, he will launch them higher if his percent is higher. The same move on the same enemy with the same damage could be an almost kill if you're at 50%, but a kill if you're at 150%. I think this could favor Ganon pretty well. He has the tools to kill at low percents keeping his enemies from utilizing their knockback buff from "rage effect" at high percents. While at the same time, his great weight will allow him to survive into higher percents better, for the most part, and give him a chance to punish even harder with his already devastating attacks. I think it stops effecting knockback around 150 though. I'll link a vid explaining better... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZPxLLaL4N8 - Posted by @
jahkzheng
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I was reading a post about the new replacement to directional influence called vectoring. I recommend you read it too, it's a very interesting new aspect. To understand what I'm about to say you'll have to read the first half at least.
I stumbled upon this paragraph: "For explanation purposes, let's assume the percentage of this is 20%. You are hit by an Upsmash whose knockback value at your current percentage is 100. For simplicity's sake, the trajectory of this attack is 90 degrees, straight upward. You are holding down, which grants you a vector downwards of 20 (units per frame, I'm just going to use numbers from now on)."
Basically, vectoring is you altering the amount of knockback you receive based on the percentage of damage you were at, and the power of the move used against you. The knockback of the power of a move is, of course, determined by your weight, the damage percentage you have, and how stale that move is beforehand. Vectoring properly against horizontal attacks is very similar to how one would DI them in previous smash games, but vectoring properly against vertical attacks is completely different.
This new replacement of directional influence will definitely benefit vertical heavy hitters more, and more so for moves that hit VERY hard vertically (say Ganon's Aerial Wizkick KOing Robin at 90% off the ground). Vectoring is less helpful when you are at lower percentages, and more helpful when you are at higher percentages. Characters find it tougher and tougher to kill as percentages go up.
Hopefully you're all following along. I'm sure you've seen many replays of the game, and you've noticed that sometimes the players have a very hard time KOing each other despite the very high percentages. This is, as stated above, because of vectoring & coupled with the stale factor of a move.
Simply put, If a decent vertical knockback move should KO your opponent at 130%, your opponent can vector his or her way to saving him or herself much more efficiently than he or she can from a much harder hitting vertical knockback move that should KO at 90%.
KOs will be much more early out of just the sheer knockback power of some heavy hitting moves and we'll see vectoring of many KOing moves, that don't hit as hard, at very high percentages.
Note, all that I mentioned above is when and if you vector 'DOWN' not 'UP'.
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About Ganon. I think he has improved a lot and will be above a few characters away from the bottom. He will most likely end up lowest mid-tier OR higher. I can assure you that he will not be last. It is way too soon to make any assumptions.
The fact that his weight has increased along with his speed is very significant. Why? In Brawl he had trouble for a good OOS option, the opposing players would play around your shield and force Ganon to constantly reset his position away from his main attack zone, and along with that he would get comboed easily and put off stage very early. In Smash 4 the fact that off stage as a whole has changed may actually give Ganon advantages over some characters. His new jab speed, and his weight and speed increases will make him more formidable on-stage, as now he'll be able to stay there longer and force people away from his shield more often unlike Brawl. I've also noticed that his Jab puts his opponents in positions where they are more vulnerable than they are safe, this is because jab now has a FTilt-like fixed pushback knocking the opponents downwards. Ganon can still kill quite early in most situations, but in some situations he will not kill as early as he would have in Brawl (but that may actually be worth the trade for the benefits Ganon has gotten).
His dash attack, though weaker, is faster and has a new 'down below' hitbox. - This means that characters with good edge games (Villager) will not be able to take as much advantage as Ganon can swoop them right off the ledge - thus forcing a good player to be on stage more. Ganon can also force people to land fast, because of a few quick aerials, and then take advantage with IASA frames on ground too.
Your opponent will most likely be hitting you more often than you hit them but that doesn't matter, Ganon only has to land a few good hits to get a kill, and he can do so much more reliably than he can in Brawl. His game style will be similar to Brawl, but with much easier initiation and much bigger rewards. Be patient, and attack. Be patient, and attack. Be patient, and attack. Be patient, and then kill.
I don't see Ganondorf being last, not at all. He has improved and will definitely be better than at least a dozen characters.
Ganon has possibly the best surprise gimp game. He can gimp with tipman (tip of his UAir and the hitbox close to the tip, there are two for those who don't know). He can do this so fast and out of nowhere that your opponent won't except it. His UAir is even better this game, it is very strong and comes out faster. It can be combed into from a dash attack due to long hitstun. NAir is also a gimp move now, both or any one of the two hits. Using it out of wizard foot is surprisingly useful now.
FAir is a wonderful move. It is useful this game. It still has the brawl method use, where you would jump below or in front your opponent and wait for them to drop their shield. It can combo into itself on mid-high percentage. It is surprisingly fast, safe on many shields, and doesn't have as much lag as it did in Brawl.
Also, something I've noticed about the two moves are, when you're in the air, say in front of your opponent, two of the things your opponent can do is try attacking you or try spacing away or with an attack. UAir and FAir mixup can punish both those options. UAir will hit them before they hit you, and FAir will get them if they try spacing away.
WDK and Flame Choke are huge game changers for Ganon. This changes his whole style as a character. Couple these moves with a now useful neutral B and a killer Up + B. Warlock Sword - this move has massive range, kill potential, and super armour. Reverse kills much faster than the normal position. This itself is huge for Ganon mains because this gives us an extra option, Brawl dorfs would never use Warlock Punch unless if it's for punishing shields or recovery. Dark fists is going to be more of a surprise kill move now, super armour on the first hit and then a killer uppercut, it also travels more upwards than Dark Dive.
Most of Ganon's hits do as much damage as many characters can achieve with 3 to even 4 hits. Each hit you get with Ganon feels like a combo, and the fact that the above custom moves give him more viable options for things he couldn't normally do makes him even deadlier.
I think even without custom moves Ganon would be pretty viable. But with custom moves he is definitely more viable.
Ganondorf has improved greatly. He has some very great pros, but also a few horrible cons.
Pros:
- He has more reliable ways to get KOs now
- He lives longer not just because of the new edge mechanics, but he is generally heavier.
- He feels more like Brawl Donkey Kong with heavy weight and early surprise kills.
- BAir resets his stance in the air to facing forward relatively well and quick, much like Marth's FAir in Brawl
- FTilt resets his spacing in the ground relatively fast and quick, and can actually give him situational advantages over the opponent
- His damage input is much higher per move, most of his moves can equal up to 2-3 opponent's moves
- His FTilt can automatically put some characters in positions in which they will not recover
- Wizard Kick is relatively quicker and does not get punished on lower percentages like it would in Brawl. It can also be used to punish rolls.
- You can control whether you want to Ganoncide or not if you grab your opponent on the ledge, and Ganoncide will always result in your victory now
- Has a wide variety of moves, all but a few kill. (B-Throw grab is the only kill potential grab)
- Can DACUS 1/3rd of FD now
- NAir comes out quicker and can surprise opponents and help get out of combos
- Aerial Wizkick can kill quite early
- Good against characters who can not apply heavy safe shield pressure (For example Lucario has a harder time shield pressuring as compared to Yoshi's amazing shield pressure)
That said, he has a few very horrible cons and these cons can be taken advantage of quite easily.
Cons:
- Very vulnerable to good projectile camping tools
- Shielding at spot and guessing what Ganon will do - you do not need to approach him, but at times he can force you to approach
- Horrible at face length as he has no quick out of shield option, quick jabbers and grabbers can attack him before his he time to react
- Gimpable recovery - if he is put off stage by a throw or a move, he can have a hard time recovering
- Combo easy, probably one of the easiest characters to combo at lower
percentages due to heavy build.
Ganon is the third slowest character in this game, a bump up from second slowest in Brawl (above only Jigglypuff, who would spend most of her time in the air anyway). The two slower ground speed characters this game are Jigglypuff and Robin.
His fastest walk speed is the second slowest, above just Jigglypuff.
Scenarios in which Wizard Foot is better than Wizard Drop Kick:
Wizard Foot:
In the air: Provides a safezone below, this coupled with the massive killing power it has benefits Ganon greatly. If you had WDK in this position (in the air), you would simply have the option to retreat behind the opponent - and that can get predictable. Your opponent may be able to bait that out, and knows that he can play under you more often.
On the ground during early percentages: Coupled with flame choke, can limit the what your opponent can do. Your can't simply stand in shield or roll away unpunished. WDK is less effective in this situation because, not only can it get you punished during early percentages, but it can only really punish rolls if they are at a particular distance, while Wizard Foot can punish rolls near normal flame choke distance (much closer to Ganon).
On the ground: Can get you some very good follow up with cancels, or with the jump you get off air. WDK can get cancelled as well, but requires precise position, the two directions of the stages every time. Wizard Foot can hit, and still get a cancel - which is the bulk of Ganon's combo game.
Momentum stoppage: The existence of the stoppage of Ganon's momentum in the air helps Ganon. Although good players shouldn't be getting hit, just being able to stop Ganon's momentum with knockback below you limits what the opponent can do.
This is just a few examples of why Wizard Foot may be better in many scenarios. I can actually go on about particular match-ups, and more examples.
After having tested his moves out quite a lot, my opinion on what his best custom moves are have changed. Though, remember, all of his custom moves have unique uses and each one may all be very useful for different match-ups, and even be switched around during the same match-ups if your opponent switches. The custom move which I find to be the worst is Wizard's Assault, in the air it has a straight downward hit which always spikes (seems good when used right at the ledge), but the move is just too slow and predictable both on the ground and in the air.
Forward B: Flame Wave is an underestimated move. I didn't think this before, but the move KOS. Yes, it KOS very early. The move starts up like a flame choke, but goes a smaller distance and has a bigger start-up time and more overall lag. It does 8% more damage than a normal flamechoke on the ground, and 5% more damage than an aerial flamechoke. I believe that in the competitive scene, Ganon's forward B customs will be the most interchangeable. All 3 of them have very good and useful uses.
Upwards B: Dark Fists seems to be the best here, but before I go into it, I want to mention that Dark Vault (two grabs special) seems kinda very good, but also kinda mehish. I say this because, it gives Ganon another command grab along with his others, and has the ability to grab twice, it also goes higher in distance, which can help Ganon in those positions which he'll usually not be able to recover back. Though the bad factor about the grab seem to out weigh the good. No uppercut, only 4% damage per grab (for Ganon standard, that's horrible), though the grab potential on stages with platforms is amazing the RCO lag and normal lag on stage if used is horrible. Now to Dark Fists. Dark Fists is amazing, it's a move that can scare the opponent into not messing with Ganon off stage, and it has the ability to setup kills even by taking a hit on stage! If you keep the normal wizard kick, flame wave, and warlock sword/punch along with this move, then nearly every move in Ganon's arsenal can kill.
Neutral B: Warlock Thrust. Yes. Warlock Thrust is probably his option. Warlock Thrust is probably the closest move to a projectile Ganon has. Underestimated, and in a quite decently fast paced game like Smash 4, you need faster moves. Warlock Thrust is like a very laggy flame-thrower, or more like a flame burst, but with darkness. It hits not only a good amount of range in front of you, it can hit opponents on platforms. Even then, I'd prefer this on stages with no platforms because of the disjointed 'projectile-like' range it has. The move won't ever kill though, it is good to use in unique situations (usually when your opponent is on a platform). This move can hit your opponent standing on the highest platform in Battlefield if you're standing on one of the two lower ones. The move has a different number of hitboxes, but all of which cancels if any other one hits. Damage ranges from 21% - 9% (reverse included). Warlock Sword is still not out of the box here, but I don't think a good player should get hit by that move at higher levels of play.
Downwards B: Wizard Kick default. I prefer this, and I also believe this to be Ganon's best down special. Wizard Drop Kick is amazing, don't get me wrong, and especially now when people don't know what to expect, but as the metagame develops the move will get more and more predictable, and the fact the it erases any early approach or 'fluke' options for Ganon is a horrible nerf for Ganon. I mentioned this elsewhere with a discussion with @Thinkaman, but I'll mention it again, Ganon's default kick also has intense kill power in a downward angle below him in the air, and this is hugely beneficial for a character like Ganon in so many ways.
Good stuff. Here you can find the frame data of about every character and of most of their moves.
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
Ganon's Jab is 8 frames on startup as we all thought. Dash attack is surprisingly fast at 10 frames at startup. Ftilt 10 frames. Utilt hits on frame 6 but initiates at frame 79. Dtilt is frame 10 startup.
Dsmash is his fastest smash with the same reach horizontally as fsmash at 15 frames start up. Fsmash and Usmash both start up at 21 frames (which is actually pretty fast and safe, considering the power and the push back they give shields). Normally, Dtilt could and should be used at moments when only dsmash could hit the opponent. Dsmash is a good roll teaser though.
I am surprised that uair comes out at the 6th frame, faster than nair's 7th frame. Bair is 10 frames, dair is 16 and fair is 14.
Here is a guide by @
Xinc
The Shadow Realm stage guide by @Hi-Hatz
The King's Domain stage guide by @_Magus_
Grab Game guide by @_Magus_
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