Papapaint
Just your average kind of Luigi.
Many of the players who support Brawl as a potentially competitive game often point out that as a fairly young game, most of the "Advanced Techniques" have yet to evolve. They say to wait it out and wait for new techniques to be discovered. I actually said so myself just a couple days ago, in the following post:
1. Establish a limiting situation within the gameplay.
We found that in most every situation, a defensive player would have the advantage on an approaching player. Projectiles would add to this advantage; in the end, the approaching player was very very limited with the options we had.
2. Discuss potential ways around the error.
There are some nifty character-specific strategies for sure. Hydroplaning, snake's superwavedashupsmashthing, etc... but they were strategies which would have been incredibly effective in Melee, not so much in Brawl. We found that even with significantly surprising approaches, the defensive player was STILL at an advantage.
3. Practice our theories in-game.
For the purpose of this situation, we would trade off being offensive and defensive. One of us would spend a whole match trying to gain an advantage on the approach, and the other would simply defend and punish. In each game, the defensive player won... simply by camping and watching. Sometimes the games were close, but the offensive player would simply take a massive beating before having any sort of chance at retaliation, and those chances would be hindered by a well-timed shield grab, OOS attack, or even just a roll+smash. The animations were predictable and obvious.
We did this for a while before taking a small break. During this time, the following conversation took place:
(1:57:41 AM) Me: could wario actually approach
(1:57:44 AM) Me: in the air
(1:57:51 AM) Me: and retreat without being sheildgrabbed?
(1:58:00 AM) Behemoth: what about b-sticking?
(1:58:11 AM) Behemoth: I know snake could punish with a b-sticked nikita
(1:58:25 AM) Me: his side b is his bike, down b is waft, and up b is corkscrew
(1:58:25 AM) Behemoth: but I don't know if I could do the timing online
(1:58:29 AM) Me: nothing super helpful there
So we went into a game and tested this idea out. We stopped, talked some more:
(2:08:29 AM) Me: now that's important
(2:08:50 AM) Me: okay
(2:08:55 AM) Me: so the new crazy di
(2:08:57 AM) Behemoth: yeah, I couldn't punish that sh'd fair well
(2:09:03 AM) Me: means that some people can actually get in
(2:09:07 AM) Me: do an attack
(2:09:09 AM) Me: and retreat
Then we played a game with me as Marth, and him on the defensive. This was when we had our first "Out of the Melee Box moment"
(2:09:15 AM) Me: i just realized that what i've been doing
(2:09:21 AM) Me: is ffing my aerials, just like melee
(2:09:31 AM) Me: but the DI allows you to move backwards
(2:09:58 AM) Me: but it still puts me way, way out of range of either shield grabbing or smashes
An explanation of what happened:
Here's what we did. The technique is both simple and difficult at the same time; useful, but not game breaking. It's basically an abuse of the DI system in the same way B-sticking is. Take a character with a fast, long-range fAir, like Marth. Approach your opponent, then short hop. About halfway through the jump, you'll DI backwards and do your fAir at the same time. Here's where it gets tricky... you need to be DIing backwards BEFORE you start your fAir. The result is an approaching, nearly ground-level attack with enough DI to allow you to actually retreat far out of grab/OOS attack range.
The easiest way to perform this action is to short hop towards your opponent, slam the control stick back, and at almost the same time, slam your c-stick forward. It is, as Behemoth pointed out, a very noisy technique. You'll know you're doing it right if the following 3 conditions occur:
1. You attack at the peak of your jump.
2. As you attack, you have 0 momentum.
3. After the attack, you move backwards, and land very near the spot from which you originally short hopped.
Now, to be honest, this technique, if it proves to be as effective as we found it to be, will absolutely create divisions between characters. Some characters do better with this. Also, some characters can RAR with this, and some can't. But it does add to the game itself.
I know this doesn't sound amazing, but think of it this way... as melee players, how many people were trying to find ways to fastfall their aerials, or otherwise cancel lag in a similar manner to melee? I know that until today, I would SHFF and try to get out another move as quickly as possible. Each time I was soundly punished, as I'd always be within range.
As a technical player in Melee, I found there were so many habitual ways of thinking that I had ingrained into my smash methods... fast falling aerials being one of them. It was simply an unconscious activity, and I'd be frustrated whenever it wouldn't work. This is because the Brawl Box truly is entirely different from the Melee Box.
Our responses after another hour of playtesting:
(2:23:54 AM) Me: that was crazy though
(2:24:02 AM) Behemoth: also, mixing it up with overshot ff'd bairs works
(2:24:12 AM) Behemoth: and it WILL train the opponent to jump and intercept
(2:24:12 AM) Me: this is definitely going to put some characters wayyyy above others though
(2:24:16 AM) Behemoth: yeah
(2:24:19 AM) Behemoth: MARTH MUCH?
Now then, we know this technique isn't particularly difficult. We also know it's not super game-breaking. But we do know that this is a significant first step in stepping outside of our current frame of reference, and working on developing this new game. This discovery has effectively added a whole new method of approach to the game--a much more difficult to punish approach, too. Most characters have fast enough Fairs--again, marth--that even if the opponent perfect shields, they still aren't in a good position to retaliate.
I'll upload some videos ASAP showing the differences between our games with the technique and our games without.
The point of this thread is not to herald this new technique, but rather to show how different the Brawl box is. Simply by DIing an offensive attack backwards, and in the case of marth, throwing in some fox trotting, we added an entirely new dimension to the offensive game--so much so, in fact, that the offensive player wound up having the advantage a significant amount of the time. Predictability descended to almost nil.
We encourage other members to do the same. Find an aspect of Brawl that seems "broken" to you... whether it's a superwavedash or Olimar's pikmin throw, whether it's Ike's FSmash or the lack of float cancelling, and find a way to work around it. Develop new strategies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2MYzzegp90
This video shows us trading off offensive/defensive. I start on the offensive. Note how difficult it is for diddy to truly punish my approach.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnJEDa0uqLw
Here it is in an actual game situation.
Well, Behemoth and I got tired of waiting for these techniques to appear, and spent the better part of 3 hours online with one another, talking over AIM while trying out different strategies. Our process was as follows.me said:
1. Establish a limiting situation within the gameplay.
We found that in most every situation, a defensive player would have the advantage on an approaching player. Projectiles would add to this advantage; in the end, the approaching player was very very limited with the options we had.
2. Discuss potential ways around the error.
There are some nifty character-specific strategies for sure. Hydroplaning, snake's superwavedashupsmashthing, etc... but they were strategies which would have been incredibly effective in Melee, not so much in Brawl. We found that even with significantly surprising approaches, the defensive player was STILL at an advantage.
3. Practice our theories in-game.
For the purpose of this situation, we would trade off being offensive and defensive. One of us would spend a whole match trying to gain an advantage on the approach, and the other would simply defend and punish. In each game, the defensive player won... simply by camping and watching. Sometimes the games were close, but the offensive player would simply take a massive beating before having any sort of chance at retaliation, and those chances would be hindered by a well-timed shield grab, OOS attack, or even just a roll+smash. The animations were predictable and obvious.
We did this for a while before taking a small break. During this time, the following conversation took place:
(1:57:41 AM) Me: could wario actually approach
(1:57:44 AM) Me: in the air
(1:57:51 AM) Me: and retreat without being sheildgrabbed?
(1:58:00 AM) Behemoth: what about b-sticking?
(1:58:11 AM) Behemoth: I know snake could punish with a b-sticked nikita
(1:58:25 AM) Me: his side b is his bike, down b is waft, and up b is corkscrew
(1:58:25 AM) Behemoth: but I don't know if I could do the timing online
(1:58:29 AM) Me: nothing super helpful there
So we went into a game and tested this idea out. We stopped, talked some more:
(2:08:29 AM) Me: now that's important
(2:08:50 AM) Me: okay
(2:08:55 AM) Me: so the new crazy di
(2:08:57 AM) Behemoth: yeah, I couldn't punish that sh'd fair well
(2:09:03 AM) Me: means that some people can actually get in
(2:09:07 AM) Me: do an attack
(2:09:09 AM) Me: and retreat
Then we played a game with me as Marth, and him on the defensive. This was when we had our first "Out of the Melee Box moment"
(2:09:15 AM) Me: i just realized that what i've been doing
(2:09:21 AM) Me: is ffing my aerials, just like melee
(2:09:31 AM) Me: but the DI allows you to move backwards
(2:09:58 AM) Me: but it still puts me way, way out of range of either shield grabbing or smashes
An explanation of what happened:
Here's what we did. The technique is both simple and difficult at the same time; useful, but not game breaking. It's basically an abuse of the DI system in the same way B-sticking is. Take a character with a fast, long-range fAir, like Marth. Approach your opponent, then short hop. About halfway through the jump, you'll DI backwards and do your fAir at the same time. Here's where it gets tricky... you need to be DIing backwards BEFORE you start your fAir. The result is an approaching, nearly ground-level attack with enough DI to allow you to actually retreat far out of grab/OOS attack range.
The easiest way to perform this action is to short hop towards your opponent, slam the control stick back, and at almost the same time, slam your c-stick forward. It is, as Behemoth pointed out, a very noisy technique. You'll know you're doing it right if the following 3 conditions occur:
1. You attack at the peak of your jump.
2. As you attack, you have 0 momentum.
3. After the attack, you move backwards, and land very near the spot from which you originally short hopped.
Now, to be honest, this technique, if it proves to be as effective as we found it to be, will absolutely create divisions between characters. Some characters do better with this. Also, some characters can RAR with this, and some can't. But it does add to the game itself.
I know this doesn't sound amazing, but think of it this way... as melee players, how many people were trying to find ways to fastfall their aerials, or otherwise cancel lag in a similar manner to melee? I know that until today, I would SHFF and try to get out another move as quickly as possible. Each time I was soundly punished, as I'd always be within range.
As a technical player in Melee, I found there were so many habitual ways of thinking that I had ingrained into my smash methods... fast falling aerials being one of them. It was simply an unconscious activity, and I'd be frustrated whenever it wouldn't work. This is because the Brawl Box truly is entirely different from the Melee Box.
Our responses after another hour of playtesting:
(2:23:54 AM) Me: that was crazy though
(2:24:02 AM) Behemoth: also, mixing it up with overshot ff'd bairs works
(2:24:12 AM) Behemoth: and it WILL train the opponent to jump and intercept
(2:24:12 AM) Me: this is definitely going to put some characters wayyyy above others though
(2:24:16 AM) Behemoth: yeah
(2:24:19 AM) Behemoth: MARTH MUCH?
Now then, we know this technique isn't particularly difficult. We also know it's not super game-breaking. But we do know that this is a significant first step in stepping outside of our current frame of reference, and working on developing this new game. This discovery has effectively added a whole new method of approach to the game--a much more difficult to punish approach, too. Most characters have fast enough Fairs--again, marth--that even if the opponent perfect shields, they still aren't in a good position to retaliate.
I'll upload some videos ASAP showing the differences between our games with the technique and our games without.
The point of this thread is not to herald this new technique, but rather to show how different the Brawl box is. Simply by DIing an offensive attack backwards, and in the case of marth, throwing in some fox trotting, we added an entirely new dimension to the offensive game--so much so, in fact, that the offensive player wound up having the advantage a significant amount of the time. Predictability descended to almost nil.
We encourage other members to do the same. Find an aspect of Brawl that seems "broken" to you... whether it's a superwavedash or Olimar's pikmin throw, whether it's Ike's FSmash or the lack of float cancelling, and find a way to work around it. Develop new strategies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2MYzzegp90
This video shows us trading off offensive/defensive. I start on the offensive. Note how difficult it is for diddy to truly punish my approach.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnJEDa0uqLw
Here it is in an actual game situation.
love your guys inventive thought process in coming up with it, and I think THATS what your trying to herald. At first I thought this new AT would help my main: zelda, but it actually doesn't help her because she is really vulnerable to perfect shields from her fair... putting her way back there with characters that "can't" use this AT and are much worse than those who "can." hmm but like you said, you have to find a new technique due to a character's deficit.
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