Tier List Speculation

[Funbot28]

Here's what I make of a PM 3.6 Tier List:

S-Tier

A-Tier

B-Tier

C-Tier

D-Tier

What do you think?

 

[Ripple]

I try to listen to your ideas! I ask you about what you'd change on ROB and then you just say "I don't care about smash". Exact words.

I'm all ears.

so If I tell you how to fix DDD, will you try to implement those, or provide feedback?

 

[Deleted member]

so If I tell you how to fix DDD, will you try to implement those, or provide feedback?

No you're bald

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No you're bald

I notice you've laid off Roy in recent times, or at least used him less than 3.5. Do you think he's significantly worse because of his nerfs?

Not a complaint, I way prefer watching your Tink.

 

[Binary Clone]

Here's what I make of a PM 3.6 Tier List:

S-Tier

A-Tier

B-Tier

C-Tier

D-Tier

What do you think?

Ike is good, but not S-tier.

Sonic is definitely not on the level of Wolf and Falcon. Ivysaur is not nearly as good as Lucas. Link and Wario being in C-tier below Ganon seems silly to me. ICs are underrated.

 

[Deleted member]

I notice you've laid off Roy in recent times, or at least used him less than 3.5. Do you think he's significantly worse because of his nerfs?

Not a complaint, I way prefer watching your Tink.

I've actually gone IaBs with roy only in 3.6. I think Roy got worse, but hes still very very potent.

you're also not the only one, most people specifically ask me to play tink over roy lol

 

[FreeGamer]

Here's what I make of a PM 3.6 Tier List:

S-Tier

A-Tier

B-Tier

C-Tier

D-Tier

What do you think?

>Zelda better than Toon Link, Wario, and Ivy
>Wario low tier
>Pika above Diddy, Luigi, and Peach

u wot m8

 

[Player -0]

I think just making Ness' DJ rise faster would be a significant buff. Would help follow-ups on floaties immensely, help his platform game, something else so I can the third spot.

Of course there's a bunch of other stuff that would help him be a weavy mixup character in neutral but chance of any of that happening seems low unless PMDT finally stops keeping everyone on lock.

Prob something else I wanted to say but can't remember m

 

[Life]

I'm curious to see what everyone's perception of Pit is. It seems most people are comfortable putting him around the middle of the cast, but honestly, with Pit players scattered and rare (seriously, look up Project M Pit on YT, there's barely anything there), I feel like there isn't a results-based way to judge him relative to the rest of the cast. So what I want to know is, what do people think Pit's strengths and weaknesses are? I have my own opinions on the matter but I wanna hear what the rest of you think.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I tried to make a tier list but I quit when I realized I knew like nothing about characters aside from the fact that I have a gut feeling that kirby and yoshi are bad and like half the cast loses to marth

and I put fox in his own tier

not that fox is that good theoretically but because he's just so incredibly prevalent and hilariously has become the yardstick for measuring whether or not a character is good as in if some character can beat a top melee player's fox therefore such a character is op or at least "top-tier" whatever that means

there is such a large amount of people playing fox (even in comparison with other melee top tiers it seems, and anyway five of the top 8 chars in pm according to smashboards rankings are melee tops) that even though fox may be theoretically worse than some characters he'll remain atop actual results for some time hence

like the wide availability of fox tech and metagame development means that if one is actually trying to win anything, the path of least resistance is simply to learn all of the existing fox tech from melee rather than developing arcane squirtle tech. of course the people that have recently had to make that decision are not going to be relevant in the pm metagame for some time because all of the fox players who have been playing melee for awhile can simply transfer their skills over and receive immediate results.
the same goes for marth, falcon and sheik, though. this is also where I start to hem and haw a little bit because while those three characters have more issues with the expanded cast which maybe prevents them from being as prevalent, fox has bigger issues too. however, all large amount of the best players already play fox, which means that fox is probably going to stay pretty dominant for the time being

I actually think it would be better if in 3.6 pmdt just straight removed fox. of course this would cause hilarious amounts of anger but watching fox players play other characters would be a very interesting experiment (or fox players just quit playing which would also be an interesting experiment [which also means marth would probably become one of the most prevalent characters])

 

[The_NZA]

Real talk, is Yoshi actually THAT much worse than he was last match? I can't tell if there's a vocal Yoshi QQ crew or if Yoshi is legit way way worse. As far as I could tell, he was upper mid/high tier in 3.5, and I can't tell what about him is way way worse. Egg rolling being worse is one thing, but he still has super armor double jump, aerials out of double jump, and no more footstool game against him. I know his weight got marginally worse. What else is so much worse about him?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Real talk, is Yoshi actually THAT much worse than he was last match? I can't tell if there's a vocal Yoshi QQ crew or if Yoshi is legit way way worse. As far as I could tell, he was upper mid/high tier in 3.5, and I can't tell what about him is way way worse. Egg rolling being worse is one thing, but he still has super armor double jump, aerials out of double jump, and no more footstool game against him. I know his weight got marginally worse. What else is so much worse about him?

I really have no actual reason for why he's worse aside from the fact that I haven't seen any yoshis do much in 3.6

i'm bad at making tier lists I'm much better at making meme lists

 

[Life]

I'm not a Yoshi player, but I did think the Yoshi nerfs were kind of pointless since very few competent people played the character. Not being footstool gimped isn't a buff that needed such compensation.

I wonder if we're just still in the 3.5 fat-trimming mode where we just nerf stuff that makes a character strong but doesn't make them more fun to play?

 

[Downdraft]

feast your eyes. best tier list you ever dun seen.

characters obviously not in order

I needed more tiers to fully complete it in the future but close enough

Is Diddy S-tier because of Junebug?
What makes Wario so good?
Where's Peach's high level representation to justify that placement?
What makes Roy the worst Fire Emblem character now?
It's difficult to believe that Squirtle is mid tier. Squirtle mains claim they suck, yet they manage to contend with and defeat supposedly better characters and players with their underrated character.
I thought the running narrative was that Pit was restored to a strong but not OP state. Lower mid conflicts with that. What holds Pit back besides trouble killing?


Zelda loses to the overwhelming majority of A, B, and C. Squirtle hard counters her. She loses to Mario and Pit. She struggles with ZSS. Pikachu is rare, but he should have the advantage based off being short, having great vertical KO power, better mobility, and good damage output. A Pikachu main might know more about their strengths in the matchup. Ganondorf, Charizard, and Sonic are hard though she might have the advantage over them. Kirby beats her. Yoshi seemed 0 or -1 from Oracle's two sets versus Hamyojo in 3.5. I think she beats Ice Climbers. She beats Ness, DK, and Bowser, but beating fatties is a trivial strength. The Jigglypuff matchup is stage dependent. Olimar didn't exist in 3.5, so I'm clueless about that matchup. With the tiers you currently have listed, she'd belong in D. In D, the matchups in her tier and below would range from -1 to +2 with possible exceptions for Sonic and Kirby.

 

[Giygacoal]

I'm surprised with how low ZSS is and how high Link is. I thought Link was consistently the "tricky to balance and could easily be subpar if not too good" guy. Is he solid this time around?

 

[Downdraft]

GnW has probably the worst combo weight in the game. Why are you up in arms about his escape option again? He doesn't even move until frame 8 or so. Combo better and kill harder.

GnW, Luigi, and Ganondorf are far from broken. @TheOtherGuy Broken is not qualified by whether or not you like playing against them. Get over it.

I didn't say he was broken, just terribly designed. Honestly, how easy is it to figure out one's character's counterplay and punish timings for G&W their first time playing against the character? G&W either requires that you know his frame data or play a character that gives him a hard time without much thought.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

oh no you have to know the matchup the horror

 

[BS_Shane]

http://prntscr.com/80zqfu


feast your eyes. best tier list you ever dun seen.

characters obviously not in order

I needed more tiers to fully complete it in the future but close enough

 

[hamyojo]

Yoshi doesn't have a neutral game. His projectile is too slow to actually have threat in neutral, he has no disjoints to try and safely poke (every "poking" option he has requires him to get VERY close and take some big risks), and now the option of baiting your opponent to hit his double jump doesn't work as well because he's lighter. The risk/reward of all of Yoshi's options is just not as good as other characters'. He still has one of the best punish games off of his combo starters, no doubt about that, but if Yoshi is playing against a truely fundementally sound player Yoshi is simply too easy to bait and punish over and over in neutral.
Also, Yoshi's neutral in Melee was based around parrying, and that's the only thing that makes him viable or whatever. Now the last remnants of that stupid mechanic are gone, along with his other "win neutral" option he had in 3.5, which was his pivot grab.
The fact of the matter is Yoshi is a flawed character to start with, and extremely hard to fix in any reasonable way. In 3.5 he was viable and usable, but now he's just... ugh. But now he follows more rules of how Smash should work at a top level, so it's a really hard thing to discuss about what's "right" for the game or whatever.
It'll take some serious creativity to make Yoshi a fair and balanced character in a high-level meta, but it's doable, and I very much hope it could happen.

 

[hamyojo]

why did i just post here oh my god

 

[The Baron]

why did i just post here oh my god

You dun goofed sir

 

[Chevy]

Bru, you gotta SDI the down tilt away. Are you practicing on bots? Even if at point blank range, if you SDI the d tilt and continue holding away you can escape the up tilt. There isn't enough hit stun for us to chase and up tilt so the best we can do is tipper forward tilt, which won't KO you until around 160% if you have good DI. I'm not saying it's easy, but at 90% percent you have the ability to escape.

On the subject of Zelda vs Samus, how the hell do I DI down throw so I don't get Ice faired?

That's pretty unreasonable to try and escape lol, and I'm pretty sure there's actually nothing Samus can do if you space the d-tilt close to her. DI does practically nothing because it launches her a whole 3 ft in the air. So yeah if I know exactly when it's coming and I super SDI your frame 5 move and also you spaced at the tip of d-tilt, I can escape. Is her d-tilt a meteor btw? Hitstun seems extra long.

Not that it's super OP or that I should be regularly being hit by d-tilt in the first place, but it's practically inescapable.

Behind Samus seems to work for me.

Not sure if Zelda can escape a follow-up. Down and away seems like the way to go, but I might still be able to connect f-air, would have to test. If you DI in you're probably just gonna die to up-smash instead.

 

[hamyojo]

You dun goofed sir

goofed like yoshi's 3.6 patch notes ayy lmao

 

[Deleted member]

goofed like yoshi's 3.6 patch notes ayy lmao

What would you change about 3.6 yoshi? Revert pivot grab? Weight?

?

 

[Ripple]

Is Diddy S-tier because of Junebug?
What makes Wario so good?
Where's Peach's high level representation to justify that placement?
What makes Roy the worst Fire Emblem character now?
It's difficult to believe that Squirtle is mid tier. Squirtle mains claim they suck, yet they manage to contend with and defeat supposedly better characters and players with their underrated character.
I thought the running narrative was that Pit was restored to a strong but not OP state. Lower mid conflicts with that. What holds Pit back besides trouble killing?

Diddy is S-tier because he has amazing grounded mobility and stage control, he has amazing OOS options with glide tossing and up-smash. His grab is extremely good. and he has a command grab that allows follow ups on nearly everybody at every % AND it helps his recovery and if you don't want to grab, you can just turn it into an attack. great recovery, great weight and fall speed and body type for being juggled/surviving.

Wario is good because Bite > Waft is absolutely incredible and NOT hard to set up at all and kills characters around 80% regardless of stage position. Bite also allows very nice strings at low % such as bite > fair > falling uair > jump uair again. His grabs are amazing and his punish game is great with shoulder tackle. only down side is he can sort of be walled out by ranged characters.

tournament placement is not accounting for peach placement. She likes trading with people and is extremely hard to finish off. She is frame positive on shield with float cancel which is FAR better than everyone else. She has a kill throw, a solid projectile to force approach or help approach.

Roy now has arguably the worst or second worst recovery in the game now. Its MUCH easier to finish him off than before to the point where its now a considerable weakness.

I simply believe Pit has no real potential to be high tier anymore. He only has OK attributes now. people are comparing 3.5 pit and 3.6 and I don't think they are looking at 3.6 overall. He also dies super early now.

Zelda loses to the overwhelming majority of A, B, and C. Squirtle hard counters her. She loses to Mario and Pit. She struggles with ZSS. Pikachu is rare, but he should have the advantage based off being short, having great vertical KO power, better mobility, and good damage output. A Pikachu main might know more about their strengths in the matchup. Ganondorf, Charizard, and Sonic are hard though she might have the advantage over them. Kirby beats her. Yoshi seemed 0 or -1 from Oracle's two sets versus Hamyojo in 3.5. I think she beats Ice Climbers. She beats Ness, DK, and Bowser, but beating fatties is a trivial strength. The Jigglypuff matchup is stage dependent. Olimar didn't exist in 3.5, so I'm clueless about that matchup. With the tiers you currently have listed, she'd belong in D. In D, the matchups in her tier and below would range from -1 to +2 with possible exceptions for Sonic and Kirby.

Like I said, Zelda is high tier because Umbreon believes that she is that high, and I respect umbreons opinion of her enough to believe him despite him never putting work into her. Umbreon is a high caliber player and understands what makes characters good. Lunchables has said the same thing before I believe?

I'm surprised with how low ZSS is and how high Link is. I thought Link was consistently the "tricky to balance and could easily be subpar if not too good" guy. Is he solid this time around?

ZSS's new buffs to her on stage didn't offset the huge nerfs to her recovery. and link is super scary being faster and HoT demonstrating that His tools are great.

 

[hamyojo]

What would you change about 3.6 yoshi? Revert pivot grab? Weight?

?

Maybe revert pivot grab, fix his side b to recover a bit easier.
replace him with Melee Sheik
If we're going for the true Yoshi experience then if you guys could work in parrying edit: Melee Parrying where he can't jump out of shield after that'd be really, really neat and then he could be balanced around Melee Yoshi, which would probably be a bit easier and more interesting, but more degenerate competitively.
Maybe make him faster somehow, not sure exactly how though.
Yoshi really is just a stupid dinosaur that's impossible to balance or work with

 

[Deleted member]

Like I said, Zelda is high tier because Umbreon believes that she is that high, and I respect umbreons opinion of her enough to believe him despite him never putting work into her. Umbreon is a high caliber player and understands what makes characters good. Lunchables has said the same thing before I believe?

I think shes annoying as ****, but shes not high tier. Probably mid.

 

[Ripple]

ok, to be fair. I said high tier, but put her in B tier.

which I don't believe to be high tier anyway

 

[Chevy]

Yoshi shouldn't be able to jump out of shield. Creativity is born best within limitation, and that huge limitation made Yoshi insanely unique in Melee. It's obviously not feasible to just take his jump OoS away without parrying functioning properly, and it seems hard to balance but there's where we're at anyway right?

 

[Downdraft]

oh no you have to know the matchup the horror

So is someone supposed to research every character before competing? Followup research after a loss is fine, but in the middle of a match, there shouldn't be things that just can't be figured out. Matchup knowledge shouldn't be a prerequisite before playing a matchup for the first time.

edit: A player should be able to learn from rewatching their matches or changing strategies. A lot of what G&W has is unpunishable without knowing the frame data since there is no indicator on when he becomes vulnerable on many of his attacks.

 

[BS_Shane]

Maybe revert pivot grab, fix his side b to recover a bit easier.
replace him with Melee Sheik
If we're going for the true Yoshi experience then if you guys could work in parrying edit: Melee Parrying where he can't jump out of shield after that'd be really, really neat and then he could be balanced around Melee Yoshi, which would probably be a bit easier and more interesting, but more degenerate competitively.
Maybe make him faster somehow, not sure exactly how though.
Yoshi really is just a stupid dinosaur that's impossible to balance or work with

Making PM yoshi as similar as possible to melee while not being terrible sounds like a great goal in my opinion. Essentially a buffed melee yoshi, like melee fc-remix esque(it's essentially a balanced melee for those who don't know) but with some brawl things/other buffs added. Sounds like a lot of work needs to be done for that though. However, you know that's not an issue with PMDT when you take a look at some 3.5/3.6b character changelists haha.

On the topic of Yoshi, I'd like to share an idea I had a long time ago about him. Why not make it possible to manually explode the eggs from up-b somehow? like a certain input to stop the egg from falling completely. The eggs he has now are definitely better overall than the ones he has in melee, but I think it would be even better to have the option to explode them in the air if you want. It could also create a solid mixup game for his egg spamming. In melee/64, the mid air explosion actually had some uses, specifically against aerial opponents. It kept a hitbox in a certain area for a split second longer than if the egg was to keep falling to the ground. Also, maybe even the explosion hitbox could be tweaked to linger a bit longer in order to make this more effective. Even just a slightly improved egg game from Yoshi could actually make a BIG difference in his neutral game.

 

[EmptySky00]

I didn't say he was broken, just terribly designed. Honestly, how easy is it to figure out one's character's counterplay and punish timings for G&W their first time playing against the character? G&W either requires that you know his frame data or play a character that gives him a hard time without much thought.

In a competitive environment you're expected to know the game inside and out. If you lose to your ignorance then you can only blame yourself. Just say his animations should match the hitboxes instead of labeling him as horribly designed.

 

[Akhenderson]

I'm gonna step in here and contribute to why Ness is not that great as well.

So Ness's recovery is commonly misinterpreted as good only because his recovery has 7 frames invincibility on the start of pkt2, goes really far, and kills if the opponent doesn't edgeguard it.

Surprise surprise, it's super easy to edgeguard because, a little bit of frame data: Ness has 16 frame on start up with the initial hitbox of the up b appearing, and at frame 20, the projectile comes out. The real kicker comes from the duration of the thunder aimed at Ness. The amount of frames it takes for PKT to reach Ness in the fastest time (IE, default angle of 45 degrees), it takes another 38 frames after the projectile comes out. It only gets longer from there if you're going for specific angles.

Guess what? Fox has a similar recovery, and he starts moving at frame 43, which is effectively FIFTEEN FRAMES FASTER than Ness, and can CHOOSE WHICH ANGLE HE WANTS TO MOVE IN. If people thought Fox's recovery was bad... WOO BOY, just goes to show how bad Ness's recovery is! (I'll also point out that PKT2 is NEGATIVELY DISJOINTED TOO, so it can lose to moves like SHINE)

Here's also another thing about Ness's recovery. When Ness commits to UP-B, Ness starts to fall down slowly, and eventually fast enough that his own PK Thunder can't hit him. If the player were to accidentally miss with PKT, Ness is dead. GUARANTEED. With this falling as well, it makes aiming for specific angles even trickier. Lucas, unlike Ness, doesn't fall down so fast when he commits to a PKT, effectively making his recovery not only EASIER TO AIM, but also LESS RISKY.

Edgeguarding Ness is also extremely EXTREMELY easy. If he's ever above the stage and far away, you cover ledge. If he's ever above stage and really close, you can stuff him out because his recovery takes too long. If he's ever below the stage, charge a disjointed fsmash or smack him at the apex of his recovery. Seriously, it's not that hard.

Also, I'm just gonna toss this in here and say that if you thought Ness's bthrow was a reliable kill move, you're sorely mistaken. (This match was in patch 3.02, but from other patches, Ness's bthrow is untouched so this is still relevant to the topic at hand).

Spoiler

 

[Chevy]

Kill throws aren't for killing fast-fallers.

 

[hamyojo]

I'm gonna step in here and contribute to why Ness is not that great as well.

So Ness's recovery is commonly misinterpreted as good only because his recovery has 7 frames invincibility on the start of pkt2, goes really far, and kills if the opponent doesn't edgeguard it.

Surprise surprise, it's super easy to edgeguard because, a little bit of frame data: Ness has 16 frame on start up with the initial hitbox of the up b appearing, and at frame 20, the projectile comes out. The real kicker comes from the duration of the thunder aimed at Ness. The amount of frames it takes for PKT to reach Ness in the fastest time (IE, default angle of 45 degrees), it takes another 38 frames after the projectile comes out. It only gets longer from there if you're going for specific angles.

Guess what? Fox has a similar recovery, and he starts moving at frame 43, which is effectively FIFTEEN FRAMES FASTER than Ness, and can CHOOSE WHICH ANGLE HE WANTS TO MOVE IN. If people thought Fox's recovery was bad... WOO BOY, just goes to show how bad Ness's recovery is! (I'll also point out that PKT2 is NEGATIVELY DISJOINTED TOO, so it can lose to moves like SHINE)

Here's also another thing about Ness's recovery. When Ness commits to UP-B, Ness starts to fall down slowly, and eventually fast enough that his own PK Thunder can't hit him. If the player were to accidentally miss with PKT, Ness is dead. GUARANTEED. With this falling as well, it makes aiming for specific angles even trickier. Lucas, unlike Ness, doesn't fall down so fast when he commits to a PKT, effectively making his recovery not only EASIER TO AIM, but also LESS RISKY.

Edgeguarding Ness is also extremely EXTREMELY easy. If he's ever above the stage and far away, you cover ledge. If he's ever above stage and really close, you can stuff him out because his recovery takes too long. If he's ever below the stage, charge a disjointed fsmash or smack him at the apex of his recovery. Seriously, it's not that hard.

Also, I'm just gonna toss this in here and say that if you thought Ness's bthrow was a reliable kill move, you're sorely mistaken. (This match was in patch 3.02, but from other patches, Ness's bthrow is untouched so this is still relevant to the topic at hand).

Spoiler

"guys, guys, ness is bad and here's why:
recovery."
Thanks for only covering one small aspect of his play, rofl.

Making PM yoshi as similar as possible to melee while not being terrible sounds like a great goal in my opinion. Essentially a buffed melee yoshi, like melee fc-remix esque(it's essentially a balanced melee for those who don't know) but with some brawl things/other buffs added. Sounds like a lot of work needs to be done for that though. However, you know that's not an issue with PMDT when you take a look at some 3.5/3.6b character changelists haha.

On the topic of Yoshi, I'd like to share an idea I had a long time ago about him. Why not make it possible to manually explode the eggs from up-b somehow? like a certain input to stop the egg from falling completely. The eggs he has now are definitely better overall than the ones he has in melee, but I think it would be even better to have the option to explode them in the air if you want. It could also create a solid mixup game for his egg spamming. In melee/64, the mid air explosion actually had some uses, specifically against aerial opponents. It kept a hitbox in a certain area for a split second longer than if the egg was to keep falling to the ground. Also, maybe even the explosion hitbox could be tweaked to linger a bit longer in order to make this more effective. Even just a slightly improved egg game from Yoshi could actually make a BIG difference in his neutral game.

That honestly wouldn't cover much. Yoshi's good at blocking air approaches with armor or a REALLY well spaced pivot grab or even usmash. Eggs are already amazing at covering that exact angle anyway. His neutral would still suck.

 

[Akhenderson]

"guys, guys, ness is bad and here's why:
recovery."
Thanks for only covering one small aspect of his play, rofl.

To be fair, NZA and Boiko already covered a majority of what makes Ness bad so I just added to it with more specific information on a topic that I feel they didnt really touch up on. I shoulda added the "why Ness's RECOVERY" is not that great.
Of course, thanks for not even giving any thoughts on the topic so props to that.

Also @ Chevy
160% on the edge of battlefield with a kill throw shouldn't kill fast fallers? Absurdity!

 

[Oracle]

Protip: roy is bad

Lunchbox i brought up that the proposed 3.6 changes would solve anything in 3.5 and you didnt agree. i might make a post about what should be done some other time.

And point of order: i said i didnt care about PM, not that i didnt care about smash. Lol

 

[Chevy]

Also @ Chevy
160% on the edge of battlefield with a kill throw shouldn't kill fast fallers? Absurdity!

Just the way it is man, no throw would have killed Falcon there. Even Mewtwo up-throw doesn't kill Falcon until 160 something.

 

[4tlas]

oh no you have to know the matchup the horror

Knowing the matchup means understanding their options. The problem here is that LEARNING those options is stupidly arcane in the case of G&W. Yes if you are all-knowing about the animations not matching the hitboxes it doesn't matter, but since the whole point of animations is to represent the hitboxes intuitively why does this exist?

That's pretty unreasonable to try and escape lol, and I'm pretty sure there's actually nothing Samus can do if you space the d-tilt close to her. DI does practically nothing because it launches her a whole 3 ft in the air. So yeah if I know exactly when it's coming and I super SDI your frame 5 move and also you spaced at the tip of d-tilt, I can escape. Is her d-tilt a meteor btw? Hitstun seems extra long.

Not that it's super OP or that I should be regularly being hit by d-tilt in the first place, but it's practically inescapable.



Not sure if Zelda can escape a follow-up. Down and away seems like the way to go, but I might still be able to connect f-air, would have to test. If you DI in you're probably just gonna die to up-smash instead.

As I said, I'm pretty sure you should never be in a situation as Samus where she spaces dtilt so that you are close to her, but yes if somehow you do then she can hit you with an uptilt. Only the inner hitbox is a meteor, which is why she can follow up with an uptilt. The outer hitbox is easy to DI out even by accident.

I'm not sure what percent we are talking about with the dthrow to fair combo for Samus on Zelda, but I would imagine if you are at high enough percent to die you are also at high enough percent to DI in and dodge the upsmash. Wouldn't work every time, but forcing the Samus player to react to the DI might be enough of a difference to make them miss their followup or at least hit the whimpy hitbox on the upsmash.

 

[King of Hoboz]

You know, after hearing that Yoshi has a bad neutral talk, it kind of hit me- who even has a good neutral in this game besides spacies? It's like the entire cast is lacking or something.